Luminous Landscape Forum

Site & Board Matters => About This Site => Topic started by: J. Paul on September 18, 2013, 07:11:38 am

Title: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: J. Paul on September 18, 2013, 07:11:38 am
Hello Kevin,
Your Dolomites scene is truly amazing!  I love the composition but the color seems over saturated on my laptop.  Could you tell me how much processing you did on this image? 
Kind Regards,
J. Paul
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: Kevin Raber on September 18, 2013, 07:32:49 am
J. Paul,  I did do a number of things to make this image pop.  I made the choice to show this image done this way.  Sometimes I like to take an image further for emphasis.  Is it right or wrong? There is no answer, it is what I wanted to do for this image.  It does make you look at it.  It does stand out.  In reality the scene was pretty intense, I just helped it along a bit.  It was totally my call. 

Kevin
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: J. Paul on September 18, 2013, 12:39:52 pm
Kevin, thanks for your reply.  I just wanted to get an impression of how it really looked that day.  It is such a beautiful scene and photograph that I wouldn't think you would have to do much at all to make it look good.

I do enjoy seeing all of your photography and hope to see more!  You are a welcome addition to Luminous Landscape!
Regards,
J. Paul
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: Rob C on September 18, 2013, 02:30:11 pm
To each his own, but maybe it's a good example of what black/white has to offer.

I find the colours far too green saccharine for my tastes, and I have no doubt at all that those clouds would have been absolutely stunning through a pola and yes, even on digital capture. There are those who say it doesn't work with digital - I find quite the opposite, but as I said, to each his own.

;-)

Rob C
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: leeonmaui on September 18, 2013, 03:59:03 pm
Aloha,

Is it my imagination,
or were some posts removed from this topic?

Lee
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: Kevin Raber on September 18, 2013, 04:52:13 pm
Thanks all for your opinions and feedback.

I had fun taking this image and working on it.  I generally have fun when making my images.  More than anything else I got to witness and record an amazing evening of changing light.  We re-visited this location last night with even more amazing images and the moon in a great location.  I'll post some of these images in the coming weeks on my blog. For the record the greens were pretty darn green. 

I love sharing my work and hearing feedback.  Everyone is entitled to their opinions.  Obviously I am entitled to mine too as shown with the images I share.  The bottom line is I love what I do and I have a lot of fun doing it.

I look forward to sharing.  Look for a new image tomorrow.  This time from a different place.

Kevin
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: michael on September 18, 2013, 05:13:40 pm
Fun? How dare you have fun?!

Photography is serious, and is about accurately capturing an image of the situation without personal bias. Forensic accuracy is required. Fun is for children.

Cheeze. Come on Kev, get with the program.

Michael
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: ErikKaffehr on September 18, 2013, 05:32:45 pm
Hi,

A slightly unmanipulated picture of mine from my recent trip to the Dolomites (with some detail).

Best regards
Erik



Fun? How dare you have fun?!

Photography is serious, and is about accurately capturing an image of the situation without personal bias. Forensic accuracy is required. Fun is for children.

Cheeze. Come on Kev, get with the program.

Michael
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: ErikKaffehr on September 18, 2013, 05:35:29 pm
Hi,

Another slightly unmanipulated picture from my recent trip to the Dolomites.

BTW, that PODAS in the Dolomites would have been nice. Sorry I missed it, but I couldn't do it anyway. I have seen quite a few of Hans Krause's great pictures from the Dolomites!

Kevin's image is great!

Best regards
Erik
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: PeterAit on September 18, 2013, 07:45:36 pm
Well, I didn't know that LuLa was now showing paintings. I wonder what a photograph of that scene would look like? Pretty good, I bet.
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: Isaac on September 18, 2013, 08:37:08 pm
"Digital Photography Is Painting" (http://books.google.com/books?id=5VwUAAAAQBAJ&lpg=PT28&dq=%22the%20way%20of%20the%20digital%20photographer%22&pg=PT28#v=snippet&q=%22Digital%20Photography%20Is%20Painting%22&f=false)
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: TSJ1927 on September 18, 2013, 11:23:19 pm
Good composition of the original scene ......................... Ugly representation of the same scene.  Art is not always in the eye of the beholder!

 
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: Jim Pascoe on September 19, 2013, 03:58:07 am
Good composition of the original scene ......................... Ugly representation of the same scene.  Art is not always in the eye of the beholder!

Surely art is always in the eye of the beholder.  Once again, I agree with you about this picture - though I wouldn't say 'ugly', just a bit over-saturated - to my taste.  I know photographers who would love this work.

Tom, I just had a look at your website and I can see you are obviously an experienced and competent photographer.  However I don't really like 75% of your pictures.  To me they are over-processed and stylised.  Perhaps this is why you do not like Kevin's work, because it too is very heavily processed, but not in your style.  You are quite entitled to your opinions, but perhaps they should be tempered in public with subtlety and humility.  Perhaps you would like to share some of your work here.  And if you already have, I apologise in advance for having missed it.

Jim

PS - I have the luxury of being a photographer with no pretence at being an artist.
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on September 19, 2013, 04:11:45 am
I do not understand the "aggressive" tone of some posts, with words like "ugly"... for sure the image is not to everybody's taste, but that is precisely the point? The scene is wonderful, with the rolling hills, barn, mountains, and sky.

If one is going to "overdo" this image, I would rather have it in colour than B&W; I think that people are more "forgiving" about "overdone" B&W images, compared to colour ones?

I actually like the colours on this image very much; they are saturated, of course, but to me the image shouts "Fuji", with all the rich greens and blues (I used to shoot a lot of Velvia...).
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: laughingbear on September 19, 2013, 04:50:36 am
This Kevin is a picture I called up every single day since you posted it. There was another one by Yat Lee from Jack Flesher's forum that had the same intruiging effect on me, here shot with a technical-camera also using the IQ 260.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/yatlee/9577614910/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/yatlee/9577614910/)

It is this "something" I strive to achieve ever since I started photography, here for example a mid day shot of Gweebara river in Ireland, taken with a humble Olympus E1, a 5MP camera, hence nearly a decade ago, and boy was this fun ;D

I would not hesitate to hang this Dolomites shot in my crip as a 60 inch wide print. Stunning!

Best
Georg


 

Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: Jim Pascoe on September 19, 2013, 05:13:12 am
This Kevin is a picture I called up every single day since you posted it. There was another one by Yat Lee from Jack Flesher's forum that had the same intruiging effect on me, here shot with a technical-camera also using the IQ 260.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/yatlee/9577614910/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/yatlee/9577614910/)

It is this "something" I strive to achieve ever since I started photography, here for example a mid day shot of Gweebara river in Ireland, taken with a humble Olympus E1, a 5MP camera, hence nearly a decade ago, and boy was this fun ;D

I would not hesitate to hang this Dolomites shot in my crip as a 60 inch wide print. Stunning!

Best
Georg

Hey Georg, you might be striving to achieve that look, but I think except perhaps for a slightly over-saturated sky, your picture is much more enjoyable than the one you linked to by Yatlee.  That one is an amazing scene, completely over-cooked in my view. But then it is only my view!  Your picture is very natural.

Jim
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: cmi on September 19, 2013, 07:56:05 am
I think its a bit overdone and also the colors are a bit off. But still, an amazing scene and otherwise I totally like it.
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: stamper on September 19, 2013, 08:19:50 am
"Digital Photography Is Painting" (http://books.google.com/books?id=5VwUAAAAQBAJ&lpg=PT28&dq=%22the%20way%20of%20the%20digital%20photographer%22&pg=PT28#v=snippet&q=%22Digital%20Photography%20Is%20Painting%22&f=false)

Isaac you are guilty of getting me to spend another £22 on a photo book. If I don't like it then I will bill you for the amount. :) The image is a bit cartoonish but there is room for all types of images except for the ones straight from a camera without user intervention. ;)
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 19, 2013, 09:13:49 am
Bollywood.

I have no idea why and how, but that was the first thing coming to my mind upon seeing the picture. Truth to be told, I do not even think I've seen a single Bollywood movie in my life. And yet, this looks to me like a Bollywood poster or billboard. I keep looking for some kind of god or godess, sitting in those clouds in the ohmmm pose, or whatever pose gods strike in the clouds.

I do not even know if it is a good or bad thing, whether I am criticizing or paying a compliment. I guess I am hesitant to criticize it too much, as I personally often go for a bold, graphic interpretation in post processing. I often get that my photographs are like paintings too. I assume people (read: non-photographers) mean it as a compliment. And yet, something is bothering me in this photograph (painting?). I can't quite put my finger on what it is. Sky too blue? Clouds too crunchy? Shadows too open? Too contrasty? Too saturated? All of the above?

The picture is like a song you can't get out of your mind once you hear it. I keep looking at it, like people who can't help but stare at the scene of a car crash they are driving by. Once again, I do not know if it is a good thing or bad thing.

Intriguing.
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: Isaac on September 19, 2013, 12:11:27 pm
Isaac you are guilty of getting me to spend another £22 on a photo book...

The public libraries in Silicon Valley thrive -- I guess that isn't true in the UK.
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: Isaac on September 19, 2013, 12:47:32 pm
I do not understand the "aggressive" tone of some posts, with words like "ugly"... for sure the image is not to everybody's taste, but that is precisely the point?

Would "beautiful" make the tone too saccharine?

The scene is wonderful, with the rolling hills, barn, mountains, and sky.

Does "wonderful" make the tone too worshipful? :-)


The problem with "ugly" is when it's used as a dismissal without explanation.
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: HSway on September 19, 2013, 02:25:32 pm
Apart from my own photography obviously, I have a weakness for characteristic expressions used by other photographers with their typical and personal imprint in their work, I should say style. I will (not for the first time) reach for example in one modest photographer from Indonesia Rarindra Prakarsa using his old EOS (Rebel) camera. This distinctive (and 'Indonesian') photography has more aspects to contemplate about but I want to particularly mention the intensive colour expression he gives to the certain scenes. He is selective about measuring strong colour saturation and imo pretty accurate with its delivery within his rather compact style.

http://photo.net/photos/rarindra

Kevin’s image comes to me as being put very well together, which is not an easy thing to do with the emphasis on colour of the elements in the scene (very nice scene..). I would say the image builds on this a lot (put together), whether fun or style leaves me unconcerned. I personally often find strong accent images somewhat unglued in one or more directions for my sense of a successful representation in general. For people that didn’t have the opportunity to see this type of clouds, I can only say that these form in some areas regularly and they do look perhaps even more solid than the ground under them. I am not sure about the light composition (and that is with no pun intended), I like to keep its structure in the scene but feel that the colour was pretty intense. I have just a slight problem with the intensity of blues far on the right side in the woods (turning into shadows) and would lower the blues there a tad.

I will stick a note about the 'Tree On A Hill How to' to this comment, well it’s a B&W and that means a distinctive expression almost by default. The composition is also very expressive which caught my attention but it’s quite close to naive for me and I’d have to see a bit more of the frame but would frame probably a little different. Which would, obviously, result in somewhat a different picture. As the debate seems quite passionate, what a surprise :-) , I will add that different means different in my language, and close means close. When I want to say something of a different meaning, I will.
And one general, I suppose that when a person has a very clear idea about his/her own photography/art it stops looking at work of others through particular glasses but with a view more open for seeing the same principles applied differently, with various aims, approach and motivation.
So his/her enjoyment is truly multidimensional, let’s say :-) and can (there still are conditions) last while others are lamenting. When things are done very well, no matter how dissimilar to my own vision, I get inspired. It may be in some indefinite way, but I always do. So yes, being confident about one’s own photography (or whatever) and having pretty good idea about it, whether that is spreading wide or is narrowly focused doesn’t matter, helps to see many important elements in work of others and recognize good from less good in much widened perspective and also enjoy it.
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: Rob C on September 19, 2013, 03:10:10 pm
The public libraries in Silicon Valley thrive -- I guess that isn't true in the UK.


You could always rent women in Glasgow, just as in any other city; I much preferred marriage.

Rob C
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: dieter268 on September 19, 2013, 04:10:46 pm
Knowing from the images here and from the LR-Videos that Michael turns the saturation down much more often then increasing it I was quiet surprised when I just saw the image of the Dolomites today.
But a second look showed that it is Kevins image, so I don't have to worry that Michael has changes his style radically or even worse, has lost his sense of orientation and pushed the saturation slider in the wrong direction... ;) :P

Dieter
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: michael on September 19, 2013, 04:37:44 pm
Which simply goes to show that there exists a wide range of personal expression in photography. And, even though Kevin is prone to Raberization, he's still my friend. :-)

Michael
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: gerald.d on September 19, 2013, 05:06:04 pm
Forgive me if this seems to be a little too forward, but is the rationale behind posting this article to encourage people to come on the 2015 Antarctica workshop (advertised immediately below the image) so that they can learn from Kevin?
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: Kevin Raber on September 19, 2013, 06:02:02 pm
Wow, never thought I could start such a discussion by posting an image with some fun post processing.  It's good to hear everyone's opinions.  Lots of positive and a few negatives.  Pretty much had counted on that.  The image is now gone and has been replaced by a new image.  This is a straight image and one I like a lot.  It was made a few weeks ago.  I got to witness and photograph 15 unique Polar Bear encounters.  It was an amazing opportunity to see something not too many people witness.  It's also interesting to learn of the challenges the Polar Bear faces as our environment changes.  Do some google research on the topic and if you get the chance make a trip north.

We have a few more days left for our Dolomites PODAS workshop which I am presently leading.  I have been posting images on my FaceBook page as well as my blog (http://kevinraber.com).  Many of the images are straight images with no post processing.   So, you can see that I can make images that look normal also.  In the end I will always make the choice on how I work my images.  It makes me happy!

Kevin
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: Alan Smallbone on September 19, 2013, 10:13:36 pm
Kevin,

I for one like the images so far but I like to see others work, whether or not it is what I prefer. I especially like hearing the details behind the image and the processing. Always something to learn. As I am sure you aware, there are always a wide range of passions and responses on this forum.  ;D

Alan
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: stamper on September 20, 2013, 04:01:02 am
The public libraries in Silicon Valley thrive -- I guess that isn't true in the UK.

You obviously haven't been in a Library in Scotland? World war 2 books have yet to make it into the history section. ;)
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: Rob C on September 20, 2013, 06:28:11 am
You obviously haven't been in a Library in Scotland? World war 2 books have yet to make it into the history section. ;)


Hey, I was there for WW2; they, books about the period, only become history when the last guy's no longer standing.

I may not stand to my full 5'11¾" anymore, but at so few kilos, maybe I look the better for it: camera compression.

Rob C
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: Isaac on September 20, 2013, 11:42:38 am
You obviously haven't been in a Library in Scotland?

Not in the last 30 years. Digital Photo Art: New Directions (http://books.google.com/books?id=uQTvtgAACAAJ&dq=%22Digital+Photo+Art:+New+Directions%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mmw8Uv-LEuaXiALJkoH4Aw&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAA)



Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: Kevin Raber on September 20, 2013, 03:43:46 pm
The short answer is I processed the images as 10 inch JPEGS and stitched them.  Now I know it will work I will stitch them full size when I get home. I'll do a full size stitch before I go to bed and the assembled image should be waiting for me when I get up in the morning. While I used 50 images they were not all even in rows and columns.  The images at the bottom were less because they were closer to me verses the upper rows because they were hundred plus yards away.  I used Photoshop and it did a great job.  I have done many stitched images in the Dolomites.  The landscape is so large it is almost a necessity.

Kevin
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: gerald.d on September 21, 2013, 04:09:06 am
Coming back to reality...

A question on the 4-row panoramic stitch. First, if I guess right, that's 4 rows and given the width, looks about 10 shots wide making 40 photographs. Even using the lowest end IQ back, that's 1.6GP. If you're using the 80MP backs, that's 3.2GP. What sort of laptop do you have in the field with you to process *that*? (Heck, even if you had access to some sort of cloud computing to massage all that data for you, it'd take forever to upload and download it all.) Does that even fit on one CF card?

MacBook Pro can handle that kind of load with ease. I've done a 72 image stitch (IQ180 - 500MB tiffs) with it in the past. You just need plenty of RAM, and fast disks.
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: viewfinder on September 21, 2013, 06:06:55 am
Kevin,...Please can you tell us a bit more about why you gave this particular treatment to your Dolomite shots?

On face value it seems very unlikely that an experienced craftsman would 'sex-up', or 'Disneyfy' such landscapes......there MUST have been reason to use "fun processing" despite the already graphic appearance of large tracts of the Dolomites, but I am genuinely ignorant of why you would do so and would very much like to know.    Obviously, you are not short of intelligence, good equipement, experience, skills or emotions,...So, Why?   I can understand that you did not wish to simply pursue a documentary approach, but why give this area of mid-Europe a semi-tropical look at complete odds with the region?

....Genuinely just inbterested and hoping to learn something!
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: Kevin Raber on September 21, 2013, 07:57:02 am
Kevin,...Please can you tell us a bit more about why you gave this particular treatment to your Dolomite shots?

On face value it seems very unlikely that an experienced craftsman would 'sex-up', or 'Disneyfy' such landscapes......there MUST have been reason to use "fun processing" despite the already graphic appearance of large tracts of the Dolomites, but I am genuinely ignorant of why you would do so and would very much like to know.    Obviously, you are not short of intelligence, good equipement, experience, skills or emotions,...So, Why?   I can understand that you did not wish to simply pursue a documentary approach, but why give this area of mid-Europe a semi-tropical look at complete odds with the region?

....Genuinely just inbterested and hoping to learn something!

I have posted an entry on my BLOG kevinraber.com (http://kevinraber.com/2013/09/21/controversy-for-dolomites-image-3/) showing original images and explaining why I choose to do what I did.  You can see what I started with and what I ended up with.  You can also view other images on my site and see that I don't always stretch things so far.  I put an image a day on my site.  Bottom line as it always is with me, is it makes me happy and I have fun.

Kevin
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: viewfinder on September 22, 2013, 05:34:45 am
Kevin.....thank you for the reply!

I followed your link to your site and now understand why you 'do what you do'......

 for other foillowers of this site who don't have time to look at your link, I will make a brief quote from your site so that they can 'get the idea'..........;

"...........  just for sake of qualifications, I can make Capture One, Lightroom and Photoshop do amazing things.  I am an accomplished photographer and have been doing this my whole life.  I have fun taking and making my images and every now and then as the artist I take certain liberties with my images and stretch it just a bit.   when I do I get a lot of people that notice. "

......I think that covers things succinctly.
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: john beardsworth on September 22, 2013, 06:18:21 am
It left me wondering what role, if any, a photograph's believability plays in Kevin's happiness with an image? In this case, I can believe the landscape but the sky looks very wrong and would diminish my own satisfaction with it. Or is it more about having fun with the viewer?

John
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: Rhossydd on September 22, 2013, 09:29:12 am
Or is it more about having fun with the viewer?
A curious thing to do. Such grossly over processed images don't reflect well on the originator with many photographers I know.
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: john beardsworth on September 22, 2013, 09:57:44 am
Curious? Don't we all enjoy winding people up?
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: Rhossydd on September 22, 2013, 10:48:08 am
Don't we all enjoy winding people up?
No.
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: Rob C on September 22, 2013, 11:35:41 am
No.

I agree; I don't like uncomfortable situations at all. Mainly, I just reserve judgement when it's about specific images, but nevertheless, some things push patience a bit far and I think that if someone is willing to go public, then maybe that person enjoys defending the stuff...

If not, there's always Without Prejudice where images can just be seen without reconstructional advice, which in my head, is seldom desired. It, the photograph, is what it is, the product of the moment; neither more nor less than that. IMO.

Rob C
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: john beardsworth on September 22, 2013, 11:48:22 am
Humourless eh?
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: Rhossydd on September 22, 2013, 12:12:41 pm
Humourless eh?
I'm not without a sense of humour.
I just don't find "winding up" people very funny, it's basically a bit malicious, effectively trolling.
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: john beardsworth on September 22, 2013, 12:42:31 pm
You're doing very well to hide it. Winding up equals trolling?  ::)
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: Isaac on September 22, 2013, 02:04:43 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: dreed on September 22, 2013, 02:52:16 pm
A curious thing to do. Such grossly over processed images don't reflect well on the originator with many photographers I know.

It comes down to whether they are trying to create art using their photographs or create a photograph that is a piece of art.
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: Rob C on September 23, 2013, 03:36:22 am
It comes down to whether they are trying to create art using their photographs or create a photograph that is a piece of art.


There's some value to the argument that when one tries to create photographic art one fails, at best producing a pleasant image, but that the rare times one does create photographic art, it's through a totally unselfconscious operation, almost incidental to the process: one just does it.

Rob C
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: jeremyrh on September 24, 2013, 02:16:07 am
If a cleaner leaves a mop and bucket in an art gallery, it's a mop and bucket. If an artist leaves a mop and bucket in an art gallery, it's art. If a LuLa contributor leaves a mop and bucket in an art gallery, it's "having fun".
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: john beardsworth on September 24, 2013, 02:47:44 am
Nice one :)
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: viewfinder on September 24, 2013, 03:58:31 am
I find several aspects of this matter irritating.......

Without getting into the 'what is art' argument, it IS undeniably true that photography is usually a craft with numerous difficulties and problems that must be solved by a 'craftsperson' who hopefully graduates over time and experience into being a 'craftsman'.   There is much to do for a person to reach the status of a craftsman.

As we know, a craftsman who struggles and persevers over a long(ish) period can, with some intelligence and natural ability, produce work which becomes 'art'.....ie., the work holds content and facility that adds up to something more than the 'mere' craftsmanship used to make that work.......

History is full of such craftsmen......to name but three; the English car model maker Gerald Wingrove,...the French Napoleonic prisoners of war who used meat bones to make artifacts for sale,....and the late Englishman George Daniels, arguably the greatest living horologist who only made 37 watches in his life which now fetch multi million dollar prices.     These, and some other craftsmen, developed their own techniques and struggled for many years until they unwittingly became 'artists'.    They did NOT see themselves as artists and never used or claimed such a title.....George Daniels for example did not use the word 'artist' five time in three paragraphs of his website.......

The title 'artist' is not granted to many craftsmen and has to be earned by public attention and comment, as distinct from workers in the 'arts' proper.   You can call yourself whatever you like but if you are faking it the public will simply ridicule your 'art' and any pretentiouness will seal your fate.   To state that  "...I can make Capture One, Lightroom and Photoshop do amazing things.  I am an accomplished photographer...."  is to set yourself up as a target for ridicule, especially if you obviously set out to annoy people with crude use of these priceless skills!

 
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: daws on September 25, 2013, 12:20:22 pm
^ Proof of Chateau's Corollary to Godwin's law:

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of
a comparison involving the Napoleonic Wars approaches 1"
Title: Re: Dolomites, Italy. September, 2013
Post by: HSway on September 26, 2013, 08:37:31 am
It comes down to whether they are trying to create art using their photographs or create a photograph that is a piece of art.

There is the basis and the Distinction I think.
Both approaches, then, are not fixed categories but an open space for an interpretation to some degree.
(As we approach the degree, number of views that agree increases sharply.)

Then again, having clear idea about one’s own intent, motivation and vision relative to either helps greatly to negotiate one’s way through the potential (mental) chaos.
Or, to not perceiving it at all.