Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Bernd B. on September 18, 2013, 05:51:00 am
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Just before selling my Hasselblad V kit I bought an Aptus75 for a very good price.
I own an H3D39 kit with seven lenses since 2007, which I don´t want to sell at all, but I just wanted to use the old V again.
The screen of the back behaves a bit erratic. You have to type two or three times on it until it does what you want. I did already re-align it, but it didn´t change. I don´t care.
The other thing I found out is not so good: there is a severe front focus. I did some tests with my own two Hasselblad bodies (new 501CM and old 500C). With the CF80mm I have to focus via acute matte screen and then manually turn the distance ring between three and for millimeters further to hit the focus. Yesterday I met a friend who has a 503CW with a 80mm CFE. Same test, same result.
I practical use, if you take a photograph of a woman holding her handbag in front of her, if you focus on her face, in the picture the handbag with be in focus and the face will be out of focus. I also did several tests on a tripod with not moving subjects like chairs on so on, same result. I evaluated the misalignment to be arround 0,2 millimeters.
I called Peter Kleiber from PhotoUniversal in Stuttgart, a Leaf dealer for Germany. He said it is very unlikely that an Aptus 75 is out of focus adjustment, these backs were so robust, he never saw one that was out of adjustment. But, if an adjustment has to be made it has to be send to Israel and the total cost would be something arround 800,- EUR including shipment. Well, I think my back is definitely out of adjustment.
So if it is necessary, I will invest the money. No problem. But how can I be sure, that after alingment the back is in focus with my Hasselblad? Can I send my camera body an a lens together with the back for calibration? Is it really necessary to do this in Israel? There is a PhaseOne Service center in Cologne. I could simply drive there. I wonder if P1 does service for Leaf? I mean they own it?
What would you do? Any similar experiences?
I have to mention I shot aperture open most of the time.
Thanks,
Bernd
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I know P1 in Denmark does some service for Leaf, including realignment of the sensor which involves focus check..
800 Euro sounds about right, that's approximately the price of a service check which includes the above adjustments..
Peter
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Simpler type of service (good) dealers can do, and the next level seems to be Phase One in Denmark, and after that Leaf in Israel.
Be prepared that you may need to make a lot of calls to get this right, the support is not so easy to deal with is my personal experience. It's partly due to organizational issues and partly due to that many dealers (especially in Europe?) have so much other business to deal with that they don't have the time to give quality support, especially if your issue is a bit non-standard like this.
I see it as a major risk that you get to pay for a service and still not get your system working. Ideally someone who knows both the V system and the Leaf back should have a look, but I don't know if anyone can provide that kind of service.
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This 0,2mm focus problem must de from bad placement of the shimming plate between the DB body and Hasselblad V or H mount.
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This 0,2mm focus problem must de from bad placement of the shimming plate between the DB body and Hasselblad V or H mount.
There is no user serviceable shimming plate like with eyelike or Hasselblad CF backs. Unfortunately ...
Bernd
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:-[
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Simpler type of service (good) dealers can do, and the next level seems to be Phase One in Denmark, and after that Leaf in Israel.
Be prepared that you may need to make a lot of calls to get this right, the support is not so easy to deal with is my personal experience. It's partly due to organizational issues and partly due to that many dealers (especially in Europe?) have so much other business to deal with that they don't have the time to give quality support, especially if your issue is a bit non-standard like this.
I see it as a major risk that you get to pay for a service and still not get your system working. Ideally someone who knows both the V system and the Leaf back should have a look, but I don't know if anyone can provide that kind of service.
Yes. Peter Kleiber told me it is impossible to shoot wide open with a Hasselblad V. So I am already in the position of the client who wants something that is not possible. And if it does not work I will have to pay for something, that does not work for me.
Indeed, when I move the focus ring of my 80mm lens 3-4mm further after focussing, I get consistently sharp images. That is enough appeal for me to give the thing a try. Alternatively I consider getting my camera adjusted by a local technician to work with the back. That would leave me more control, as I could probably assist the process and it would be cheaper. But the camera would only work with the one back afterwards.
The next thing I thought about was a custom made removeable shim between camera body an focussing screen.
Again, I have no problem in spending 800,- EUR for this. I just fear to spend the money, making all the effort but not being satisfied afterwards.
Bernd
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I would also look at the bodies and make sure the focusing screens are properly aligned and that the mirrors come all the way down for focusing. As these bodies become older there can be a fair amount of mechanical tolerance going on. If you send the back in we will check that it meets Hasselblad's own spec. But we cannot guarantee perfect focusing on old/ worn bodies and/ or lenses
BR
Yair
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Hi,
If two cameras have the same error than it may be probable that the problem is with the back.
My P45+ seems to OK at full aperture at least with the Sonnar 150/4 I tested with. So I would say that focusing on the V is OK, but I use a monocular to enlarge the viewfinder image.
Best regards
Erik
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I used a P21 with my Hasselblad 501cm. Focus was way off. I sent the 501 in for adjustments: mirror, screen, and hooks were all adjusted. Focus was much improved but still not great at 2.8/80CF. In the end i bought a couch instead of the back. Note that it focused fine with film.
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I used a P21 with my Hasselblad 501cm. Focus was way off. I sent the 501 in for adjustments: mirror, screen, and hooks were all adjusted. Focus was much improved but still not great at 2.8/80CF. In the end i bought a couch instead of the back. Note that it focused fine with film.
A couch like in "casting couch"? ;D
Best,
Bernd
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Hi,
I tested my Hasselblad 555ELD with a CFE 80/2.8 at f/2.8 on a LensAlign target, as precisely I could. I found that with the target at 1.338 m the best focus was at 1.320.
That would give a focus error in the focal plane of 0.074 mm. So my alignment error is less than half of yours. AFAIK I know, factory tolerance of the 555 ELD is 0.03 mm and the factory tolerance of the P45+ is 0.015, so it seems my combo is outside tolerances, too. As I mostly shoot f/8 - f/11 the corresponding CoC would be 6.7 - 9 microns, that is barely noticable on a 6.9 micron sensor.
Note that DoF scales are based on a CoC of 66 microns, normally. The CoC because of defocus at f/2.8 would be 0.04 / 2.8 -> 26 microns.
Best regards
Erik
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Thank you, guys!
I will try to take pictures of very distant objects during the next days. If it is not possible get a sharp picture of something that is a few kilometers away with the lens wide open and set to infinity, I will know it is the backs fault. Otherwise the focussing screen must be wrong.
Bernd
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So I went up to the roof of our house this morning and took a picture through a small window. Lens set to infinity, CF80, f/2,8 1/250, ISO 100.
The water tower which is approximately 1km away is blurry. A roof which is approximately 50 meters away is perfectly sharp.
So the error comes from the back. It is not possible to focus it to infinity. Seems it has to make a trip to Israel.
Bernd
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There are screws below the ground glass screen that could be raised or lowered(obviously if they are already completely lowered and you need to lower the screen more then the sensor would have to be adjusted) and this alters the focus quite significantly, there is a photographer in Portugal that found his screws were adjusted to the wrong height and this caused severe focus problems.
Before adjusting the screws try raising the screen with paper spacers to see what influence this has...
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just a thought, but are you using a focus screen mask for the back ? is it installed above or below the focuring screen ? or you have a dedicated focusing screen with markings for tha back ?
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It is not a problem of the camera body. I checked it with three camera bodies and two 80mm lenses and the error is always the same.
Also I don´t have the transparent Leaf viewfinder mask placed under the focussing screen because that would change the adjustment dramatically.
Note: I did a picture with the 80mm lens set to absolute infinity and whilst a very distant object is out of focus a closer object, about 40 to 50 meters away, is sharp. That does not come from the focussing screen.
Is there a service facility in Germany who can adjust the back for me while I´m there to check the result immediately?
Bernd
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It is not a problem of the camera body. I checked it with three camera bodies and two 80mm lenses and the error is always the same.
Also I don´t have the transparent Leaf viewfinder mask placed under the focussing screen because that would change the adjustment dramatically.
Note: I did a picture with the 80mm lens set to absolute infinity and whilst a very distant object is out of focus a closer object, about 40 to 50 meters away, is sharp. That does not come from the focussing screen.
Is there a service facility in Germany who can adjust the back for me while I´m there to check the result immediately?
Bernd
Bernd any of our German dealer will be able to take car of it for you. They will have to send it to either Denmark or Israel for this and it'll then also be cleaned and calibrated. This is of course a chargeable service as the back is not under warranty (http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/partners_europe.html)
Yair
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Is there a service facility in Germany who can adjust the back for me while I´m there to check the result immediately?
You could try Calumet Germany, they sell Leaf again . I've had a very good experience with their rep in Hamburg back then, I understand he's back in charge .
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Bernd any of our German dealer will be able to take car of it for you. They will have to send it to either Denmark or Israel for this and it'll then also be cleaned and calibrated. This is of course a chargeable service as the back is not under warranty (http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/partners_europe.html)
Yair
Yes, but it will be calibrated to your standard. I fear the back is already calibrated to your standard. I´d prefer to have someone here locally to get it done and check if it works for me afterwards.
Bernd
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The sensor, if needed will be adjusted to Hasselblad's spec, not ours. This is done under a microscope in a clean environment and as far as I know there's no facility for this outside of Denmark, Israel and the US.
By Calibration I'm referring to something else, not the positioning of the sensor...
Yair
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The sensor, if needed will be adjusted to Hasselblad's spec, not ours. This is done under a microscope in a clean environment and as far as I know there's no facility for this outside of Denmark, Israel and the US.
By Calibration I'm referring to something else, not the positioning of the sensor...
Yair
In these days of détente, you might possibly explain to those of us who do not have the benefit of NSA what "something else" means?
Edmund
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Hi,
Inspired by your issues I made some test with my stuff. 555ELD and a P45+. I found that I was front focusing about 1.5 cm at 130 cm distance. After that I made some pictures at f/2.8 on my Planar 80/2.8, infinity came out sharp.
After that I decided to try to adjust the focusing screen. The idea was to focus the camera, thad adjust the camera position for best sharpness. I was using a 15X loupe on the split image on the viewing screen. Finally I gave up. Moving the camera back and forth gave no shift in viewfinder image (or on split image), although 1 cm of shift was quite noticable on the images at 1:1 view.
So, I am pretty sure that my camera could be improved, but I also have seen that the error is beyond my focusing accuracy. That said, my PM5 finder is at my optitian who is making a new ocular fitting my vision for me. When I get it back I may repeat the experiment.
Best regards
Erik
Just before selling my Hasselblad V kit I bought an Aptus75 for a very good price.
I own an H3D39 kit with seven lenses since 2007, which I don´t want to sell at all, but I just wanted to use the old V again.
The screen of the back behaves a bit erratic. You have to type two or three times on it until it does what you want. I did already re-align it, but it didn´t change. I don´t care.
The other thing I found out is not so good: there is a severe front focus. I did some tests with my own two Hasselblad bodies (new 501CM and old 500C). With the CF80mm I have to focus via acute matte screen and then manually turn the distance ring between three and for millimeters further to hit the focus. Yesterday I met a friend who has a 503CW with a 80mm CFE. Same test, same result.
I practical use, if you take a photograph of a woman holding her handbag in front of her, if you focus on her face, in the picture the handbag with be in focus and the face will be out of focus. I also did several tests on a tripod with not moving subjects like chairs on so on, same result. I evaluated the misalignment to be arround 0,2 millimeters.
I called Peter Kleiber from PhotoUniversal in Stuttgart, a Leaf dealer for Germany. He said it is very unlikely that an Aptus 75 is out of focus adjustment, these backs were so robust, he never saw one that was out of adjustment. But, if an adjustment has to be made it has to be send to Israel and the total cost would be something arround 800,- EUR including shipment. Well, I think my back is definitely out of adjustment.
So if it is necessary, I will invest the money. No problem. But how can I be sure, that after alingment the back is in focus with my Hasselblad? Can I send my camera body an a lens together with the back for calibration? Is it really necessary to do this in Israel? There is a PhaseOne Service center in Cologne. I could simply drive there. I wonder if P1 does service for Leaf? I mean they own it?
What would you do? Any similar experiences?
I have to mention I shot aperture open most of the time.
Thanks,
Bernd
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In these days of détente, you might possibly explain to those of us who do not have the benefit of NSA what "something else" means?
Edmund
Calibration is electronics. Adjustment means mechanics.
Best,
Bernd
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Hi,
Inspired by your issues I made some test with my stuff. 555ELD and a P45+. I found that I was front focusing about 1.5 cm at 130 cm distance. After that I made some pictures at f/2.8 on my Planar 80/2.8, infinity came out sharp.
After that I decided to try to adjust the focusing screen. The idea was to focus the camera, thad adjust the camera position for best sharpness. I was using a 15X loupe on the split image on the viewing screen. Finally I gave up. Moving the camera back and forth gave no shift in viewfinder image (or on split image), although 1 cm of shift was quite noticable on the images at 1:1 view.
So, I am pretty sure that my camera could be improved, but I also have seen that the error is beyond my focusing accuracy. That said, my PM5 finder is at my optitian who is making a new ocular fitting my vision for me. When I get it back I may repeat the experiment.
Best regards
Erik
I found out some years ago that in the days of digital capture a prism finder on a Hasselblad is almost useless when shooting wide open. The image displayed by the prism is just not clear or sharp enough to nail the focus. Since then I only use the WLF with the loupe.
If your camera focusses fine to infinity everything is ok! Please don´t try to change the adjustment of your focussing screen by yourself. I´ve read the service manual for a 503CW. Very special equipment is needed to adjust the ground glass correctly. Don´t ruin it!
As I already elaborated in my case it is obviously the back which is out of adjustment, because I cannot focus to infinity at all. It is mechanically not possible. When I set the distance ring of the lens to the maximum, objects with a distance of about 40 to 50 meters turn out sharp, whilst at infinity are out of focus.
I got PM from a photographer claiming all leaf backs are adjusted that way. He says they are optimized for f/8 until f/11 for some (good?) reasons. He got his Aptus changed to be able to focus at infinity with open aperture. Afterwards the back worked fine for him with all of his camera bodies, AF and MF. When he exchanged the Aptus for a Credo, he found the same problems and again got it solved in the same manner: adjusting the back to focus correctly at infinity with open aperture. That did it. Solved all problems for him, also for other distances. I think that will do it for me, too.
Bernd