Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: PhotoKratky on September 17, 2013, 01:04:56 pm
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I am trying to decide which camera to buy as my entry into MFDB: A H3DII-31 or a H3D-39 (the older, non-II version). The price of both sets is roughly the same, the pros and cons I've come up with so far are:
Pro H3DII-31:
-) Newer camera, fanless design, still fully serviced by Hasselblad
-) Bigger display
-) Two stops faster (higher ISO)
Pro H3D-39
-) Bigger sensor, more pixels
-) (Almost) no crop factor
The camera is not going to be used for professional shooting in sports, but rather for portraits indoors and outdoor and some still-life I do for my private entertainment. Basically I want to have a first-hand experience of a modern medium format camera with a sizeable sensor. Any thoughts or comments would be welcome...
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Some random thoughts:
The 31 will only get you a stop more ISO. I always shoot at base ISO so not really a factor for me.
The servicing thing is not a big deal as ex Hasselblad service techs have set up a service centre independent of but closely linked to Hasselblad.
If you like wide angles you might want to go for the bigger chip (39)
The 31 (from memory) will shoot slightly faster than the 39.
Hope that helps
Nick-T
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Also here's a list of the cameras/scanners no longer being serviced by Hasselblad:
· Hasselblad Imacon Ixpress range including H1D
· Flextight Precision i+II+III, Flextight Photo, Flextight 343 scanners
· CFH-22, CFH-39
· CF-22, CF-22MS, CF-39, CF-39MS
· H2D-22, H2D-39, H3D-22
Note that the H3D39 is not listed :)
And here's the contact for the independent service outfit:
http://www.b23.dk
Nick-T
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Thanks Nick!
That's really great to hear about the independent service. I still use my CF-528 on my Rollei 6008AF and wondered whether I should sell it or not. Now I will keep it! Bookmarked the service shop!
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Not sure where you are located but Hasselblad USA currently has 5 certified pre-owned H3DII-31 bodies for sale.
Prices between $5,500 and $6,100.
Best, Joris.
http://www.hasselbladusa.com/media/1064797/husa_cert_preowned.pdf
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Note that the H3D39 is not listed :)
It is listed in the source: http://hasselbladbron.com/index.php?option=com_easyblog&view=entry&id=59&Itemid=128 (http://hasselbladbron.com/index.php?option=com_easyblog&view=entry&id=59&Itemid=128)
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Thanks everybody for their input, the service situation doesn't seem so bad as I originally thought, at least there is an independent service available.
Has anyone used both camera and can comment on differences in photo quality at base ISO?
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Thanks everybody for their input, the service situation doesn't seem so bad as I originally thought, at least there is an independent service available.
I would not count on it. They are just as dependent on the availability of parts as everyone else.
You should read Hasselblad's announcement in detail. Service is still available for most parts of their camera line: they will service the camera mechanics, replace easy to find parts like the IR filter, clean and calibrate the CCD, etc... The announcement is about some electronic parts of the backs. I understand that some electronic parts are simply not available and that is the reason for the (partial) discontinuation of service.
Has anyone used both camera and can comment on differences in photo quality at base ISO?
First, you should realize that base iso is 50 for the 39mp back and 100 for the 31 mp back (because the micro-lenses concentrate the light...). Then, if you compare the two cameras pixel per pixel, the quality is very similar. In my opinion, the real difference lies in the crop factor: if you want to use wide-angles, the 39 mpix back is the better choice.
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Why buying an MF camera and then accepting a higher crop factor than necessary? That´s why I´d always go for the larger sensor.
I bought my H3D39 by the End of 2007 and I like it a lot. Except for the news about service availability.
Bernd
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Hi, I have an H3D-39 that I am looking to sell (I also own a Phase back and use that much more). Send me a PM if you are interested.
I would not consider the 31 Mpix version unless you are only shooting people due to the crop factor. Regarding higher ISO, both cameras are not great at ISO 400 and above.
Kind regards, Alex
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Regarding higher ISO, both cameras are not great at ISO 400 and above.
I think I posted some comparison between an H3D-31 and a D800 which showed that the two cameras gave surprisingly similar results up to ISO1600. The trick, of course, is that the H3D-31 noise reduction is entirely done in phocus, which allowed Hasselblad to improve it a lot since the camera was first issued.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8242/8519190408_1578da2f06_o.jpg)
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Hi, I would suggest an open platform like a Hasselblad H1/H2 or Mamiya / Phase and a phase one / leaf back that way you can start with a very affordable back like a P25+ and then upgrade to a better back later but still keep your lens and camera body system. Phase One backs, even older ones, are quite serviceable and supported even in software.
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Hi, I would suggest an open platform like a Hasselblad H1/H2 or Mamiya / Phase and a phase one / leaf back that way you can start with a very affordable back like a P25+ and then upgrade to a better back later but still keep your lens and camera body system. Phase One backs, even older ones, are quite serviceable and supported even in software.
This is a very good recommendation.
I owned a H3Dii-39ms some time ago ( http://brianhirschfeldphotography.com/2011/12/07/hasselblad-h3dii-39ms-and-80mm-f2-8-lens-2/ ) and it is a very good and capable camera. Though The H3Dii-31 is newer so it might be the smarter buy, and the one I would personally choose in this situation.
It should also be considered that PhaseOne has excellent trade in programs with %'s off for your megapixel count when upgrading. So, if you plan on upgrading in the future it might be advantageous to get the 39mp sensor simply because it might be more economical in the future, especially if you could get it at a good price. someone please correct me if this PhaseOne program is no longer active
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I would think that all MF manufacturers have some sort of trade-in program, not only phase one. Hasselblad sure has one as well.
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Hi, I would suggest an open platform like a Hasselblad H1/H2 or Mamiya / Phase and a phase one / leaf back that way you can start with a very affordable back like a P25+ and then upgrade to a better back later but still keep your lens and camera body system. Phase One backs, even older ones, are quite serviceable and supported even in software.
Absolutely. An open platform gives you the chance to have two different sets of batteries in your camera, two chargers to carry, one for the back and one for the camera, and assembled sets of spare batteries to keep charged - MF systems consume batteries faster than I can eat chocolates, they don't display the frugality of pro 35mm models.
Also, having a back from Alice and a camera from maker Bob gives you the chance of being told by the back manufacturer Alice that the Bob camera is out of alignment or out of sync and they cannot fix it, and gives the camera guy the chance to say the same about the Alice back - of course the workshops for Alice and Bob happen not to be in the same country. I learnt all of the above when having a camera/back by Japanese Mamiya and European Phase (before Phase bought Mamiya), but I'm sure that Hassleblad and Phase are quite capable of finger pointing too even if they both were originally european companies,.
Remember that if back or camera develop a fault and they are not made by the same company, then there is a good chance that the unit which comes back after service will not align with the other half you own if it was a swap or got rebuilt, and of course we all know that the service for a discontinued product line is an absolute priority at any hight tech enterprise.
My advice: Batteries, camera/back alignment and service availability are what make a digital MF camera work. Make sure you have a single supplier of these three factors or else you will need a VERY helpful dealer, an assistant with an enthusiasm for chasing compatible parts, and/or a good backup SLR.
Last not least, I'm sure Capture Integration or Digital Transitions will chime in to say that they stand behind their preowned products and such problems don't happen to their customers. I agree - a good dealer is worth gold and if you buy from them you will have a safety net and may attempt such high wire gymnastics - otherwise just take the simple way out ... buy an obsolete but working $4K system as a unit. All Phase or all Hassie. The Hasselblads are superb cameras, even though the Phase files may well be better if only the file and the C1 software, and not the camera is judged. I just sold my Phase back, and I will get an old Hassy once the prices fall a bit more.
Edmund
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I would think that all MF manufacturers have some sort of trade-in program, not only phase one. Hasselblad sure has one as well.
http://www.hasselblad.com/media/3516113/hb_tradein_101112.pdf
Parts of it read like a sick joke.
And I have absolutely nothing major against Hasselbald professional (who would ever have though we needed to clarify that???!!) cameras, just their not so supportive upgrade paths.
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Parts of it read like a sick joke.
So do parts of the Phase One trade-in program...
The upgrade options given to H3D, H4D and H4X owners are fair I believe. The options given to H1/H2 owners and other camera owners are flat out uninteresting.
In my particular case trading in an H4X and P30+ would reduce the price of the H5d-40 from $17,995 to $11,050.
$6,945 is probably a bit below market value but not that much and very acceptable I find...
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So do parts of the Phase One trade-in program...
The upgrade options given to H3D, H4D and H4X owners are fair I believe. The options given to H1/H2 owners and other camera owners are flat out uninteresting.
In my particular case trading in an H4X and P30+ would reduce the price of the H5d-40 from $17,995 to $11,050.
$6,945 is probably a bit below market value but not that much and very acceptable I find...
I only reference their trade-in's from Hasselblad H (specifically my H3Dii-39ms) to a PhaseOne Digital back (IQ180)
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Remember that if back or camera develop a fault and they are not made by the same company, then there is a good chance that the unit which comes back after service will not align with the other half you own if it was a swap or got rebuilt, and of course we all know that the service for a discontinued product line is an absolute priority at any hight tech enterprise.
My advice: Batteries, camera/back alignment and service availability are what make a digital MF camera work. Make sure you have a single supplier of these three factors or else you will need a VERY helpful dealer, an assistant with an enthusiasm for chasing compatible parts, and/or a good backup SLR.
Last not least, I'm sure Capture Integration or Digital Transitions will chime in to say that they stand behind their preowned products and such problems don't happen to their customers. I agree - a good dealer is worth gold and if you buy from them you will have a safety net and may attempt such high wire gymnastics.
We don't say that "such problems don't happen" to our customers.
I would say they happen a lot less since we test (and know exactly what to test) everything we sell whether new or pre-owned, only sell preowned gear which is in good condition, always include a warranty, and take care to clean contacts and keep very close track of firmware, and known issues.
But still you cannot bring the chance of problems to zero. So we can't promise they won't happen, only that we will go above and beyond to help out when they do.
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Doug,
As your excellent reputation precedes you, I am sure that you will properly advise and attend any of your customers.
Of course the world would be a better place if you and Secretariat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secretariat_(horse)) could be cloned :)
Edmund
We don't say that "such problems don't happen" to our customers.
I would say they happen a lot less since we test (and know exactly what to test) everything we sell whether new or pre-owned, only sell preowned gear which is in good condition, always include a warranty, and take care to clean contacts and keep very close track of firmware, and known issues.
But still you cannot bring the chance of problems to zero. So we can't promise they won't happen, only that we will go above and beyond to help out when they do.
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Hey thanks that's kind of you to say.
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Doug,
Why don't you give us your opinion on the maintainability of the aging Frankenblads?
Would you recommend customers try to upgrade to the H4x, and if so, are there shimming issues or can this be handled by software?
Edmund
Hey thanks that's kind of you to say.
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Why don't you give us your opinion on the maintainability of the aging Frankenblads?
For the record: service is available for the H1 and H2 bodies and there is no indication that it would be discontinued soon.
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I guess user experiences vary greatly.
I purchased a well used H1 (100k shots on the body and 30k on the lens shutter, does not looked abused at all so I guess it was used mostly in a studio environment) with finder and 80mm lens months ago and have had zero problems using it with my IQ160 from day one. It is not my main camera to use with the PhaseOne back since I mostly use the Arca RM3di but it has worked flawlessly so far whenever ive needed it. I basically got the H1, charged the battery and just used it. Did not do any maintenance or checked the firmware or anything. It was a rental camera. AF works very well.
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When I have a chance I'm going to sell my H3DII-39 and four lenses and some goodies as a package. If interested in the whole package, email me at [email protected].
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Thanks everybody for their input, their offers, and the lively discussion.
To tell the end of the story, I went with a H3DII-31. The main reason for this decision was that someone made me an offer I just couldn't refuse ;)