Luminous Landscape Forum
The Art of Photography => The Coffee Corner => Topic started by: Vladimirovich on July 27, 2013, 12:44:38 am
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http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/26/us/north-carolina-sterilization-payments/index.html
"Under the eugenics laws in North Carolina, anyone could request that someone could be sterilized."
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Yeah, and try reading the comments. What a nice group of people, er, trolls.
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"Under the eugenics laws in North Carolina, anyone could request that someone could be sterilized."
I'm sure anyone in New York, California or Montana could also request that someone could (should?) be sterilized. Whether anyone is willing to take the request serious and act on it is a completely different matter ;-)
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Everyone seems to forget that at the turn of the 20th century, "progressives," a left-wing term Communists in the U.S. later appropriated, were head-over-heels into "building a better race," in other words, eugenics. They were all into selective breeding and sterilization of "lesser" races and individuals. Hitler picked up a lot of his eugenics ideas from United States progressives. If you don't believe this, you could look it up.
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Everyone seems to forget that at the turn of the 20th century, "progressives," a left-wing term Communists in the U.S. later appropriated, were head-over-heels into "building a better race," in other words, eugenics. They were all into selective breeding and sterilization of "lesser" races and individuals. Hitler picked up a lot of his eugenics ideas from United States progressives. If you don't believe this, you could look it up.
Are you trying to pin this on left-wingers, right-wingers, or just 'anybody but good ole decent Americans'? I'm not sure of your point. But as you say, forced sterilisations as a party to a eugenics movement, weren't uncommon at that period in time; it happened in a number of countries, and Sweden was still sterilising people without informed consent, right into the 1970s
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Hi Bill, It's always people who are sure they're smart enough to decide what other people ought to do who get involved in things like selective breeding and sterilization. By definition, that's left-wingers. People on the right are willing to recognize reality. For a left-winger, if theory doesn't match reality, reality must be the problem. Theory propounded by someone sufficiently credentialed by left-wing academics MUST be correct.
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Hi Bill, It's always people who are sure they're smart enough to decide what other people ought to do who get involved in things like selective breeding and sterilization. By definition, that's left-wingers. People on the right are willing to recognize reality. For a left-winger, if theory doesn't match reality, reality must be the problem. Theory propounded by someone sufficiently credentialed by left-wing academics MUST be correct.
so we shall take it that North Carolina governors / senators / rep etc were all left wingers @ back then... were they ?
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By definition, that's left-wingers. People on the right are willing to recognize reality.
That is so Fair and Balanced :-)
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so we shall take it that North Carolina governors / senators / rep etc were all left wingers @ back then... were they ?
Hi Vlad, I finally got a minute to look up the data. To answer your question, if you're talking about the days when sterilization and selective breeding were all the rage: Between 1877 and 1973 (nearly a hundred years) NC had only one governor who wasn't a Democrat, and he was a RINO. Between 1973 and 2013 there have been three Republican governors and 4 Democrats. The legislature appears to have followed roughly the same cycle, and the state's voters appear gradually to be becoming more intelligent.
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That is so Fair and Balanced :-)
It's neither "fair" nor "balanced," Isaac. It's the unvarnished truth. Truth is never "fair" or "balanced;" it's just the truth.
You could look it up.
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By now we all know there is but one truth -- Russ Lewis is the measure of all things.
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Hi Bill, It's always people who are sure they're smart enough to decide what other people ought to do who get involved in things like selective breeding and sterilization. By definition, that's left-wingers.
No, by definition that's people who are sure they're smart enough to decide what other people ought to do.
... People on the right are willing to recognize reality.
An interesting assertion. Care to back it up with evidence? I can certainly provide the one black swan that disproves your assertion, question is, where should I start. I could be all day playing the game of 'spot the witless right-winger'.
For a left-winger, if theory doesn't match reality, reality must be the problem. Theory propounded by someone sufficiently credentialed by left-wing academics MUST be correct.
Another interesting, but unevidenced assertion. You seem good at those, but I much prefer your photography.
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An interesting assertion. Care to back it up with evidence?
. . .but I much prefer your photography.
Thanks, Bill. But to answer your request for evidence, let's start with Maggie Thatcher. Britain was on its uppers and by facing reality she saved the nation from total disaster. I know you won't agree with that, but, as usual, you could look it up.
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It may be of interest, that among others, Margaret Sanger(founder of planned parenthood) was a prominent member of the movement along with many notables including Alexander Graham Bell, HG Wells and others.
Mike
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Thanks, Bill. But to answer your request for evidence, let's start with Maggie Thatcher. Britain was on its uppers and by facing reality she saved the nation from total disaster. I know you won't agree with that, but, as usual, you could look it up.
Really? She pretty much destroyed British manufacturing industry, caused huge social unrest, devastated the British health service (her insane 'compulsory competitive tendering' for cleaning services gave us MRSA - thanks Maggie) , seriously under-invested in education (schools were quite literally, not figuratively - I know the difference - falling down around pupils' ears, whilst several shared a single out-of-date textbook, in classes of 40+). Businesses went out of business more quickly than at any time before, we had massive levels of unemployment, and it took decades for the country to recover from it all. In health terms, the patient went into hospital with the flu, and came out having had a kidney removed, the left leg & right arm amputated, and with a dose of some nasty 'social disease'. BTW, I know, I was there.
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It's certainly an interesting opinion, Bill, but unsupported by the facts. Sorry to hear about your bad experience with government-run medical care, but it's exactly what I'd have expected.
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Really? She pretty much destroyed British manufacturing industry, caused huge social unrest, devastated the British health service (her insane 'compulsory competitive tendering' for cleaning services gave us MRSA - thanks Maggie) , seriously under-invested in education (schools were quite literally, not figuratively - I know the difference - falling down around pupils' ears, whilst several shared a single out-of-date textbook, in classes of 40+). Businesses went out of business more quickly than at any time before, we had massive levels of unemployment, and it took decades for the country to recover from it all. In health terms, the patient went into hospital with the flu, and came out having had a kidney removed, the left leg & right arm amputated, and with a dose of some nasty 'social disease'. BTW, I know, I was there.
Poppycock on stilts! I know, I was there. I worked on Teesside for part of those years and saw the transition from subsidized obsolescence towards energetic self-reliance. Pre-Thatcher Britain run by the Chairman Bills was a degrading disaster. Thatcher administered an enema based on self-determination and they didn't like it up 'em. She'll be an inspiration like Elizabeth I when all the other post-war PMs bar Churchill are forgotten. The left's hissing at Thatcher's death rather proves her significance. But let's all face it, a photo-forum is useless for making progress to reconcile our irreconcilable world-views, so slap back and move on.
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Mark, I too lived there (Scotland) from way before her time, and I did have the personal experience of busines life under the Grand Masters Wilson and Callaghan, who when not turning Downing Street into a union leaders' pork-pies-and-beer chomp-shop, were making it impossible to quote for work without writing in clauses stating that final prices were dependent on rate of inflation at time of delivery of goods! (Could be 20+%!) Yes, I had to do that. Imagine, you price a calendar at say, fifty grand in February or March, and don't know what it will cost in December when you deliver it and the invoice. Who'd be a buyer or producer? I also had the experience of having to buy 'official' artwork 'stickers' from a friendly blockmaker's business before SLADE would allow my designs and photographs to be handled by the printing companies - and I had nothing to do with SLADE! I think that benign technique was called closed shops... Roll on the socialist movement! Let's all sink to the bottom together in a spirit of true brotherhood.
I have, on and off when the need arises, pointed out some of the factors shaping her perspective and alternatives, but to no avail.
IMO, her basic advantages were two:
1. she knew about self-employment and the reality that nobody owes you a living;
2. she also knew from the simple, family-run shop experience, that money spent can only come from money earned. Break that, and you are in debt, as we have seen proven, time after time.
Maggie's rule was the one that finally took the UK out of its huge wartime debts and provided the level starting line once more. Clearly, it wasn't to be maintained very well or for very long: her own staff did their utmost to stab her and take the power for themselves, never mind the best efforts of the loonie lefties. But hell, even the Tories have their own lunatic right, undermining away with the best/worst of the rest.
From those two basic economic realities she understood that a country is just another model of a big shop or large indiustry - the same economic realities apply, and the only way to run them with success is to find the right staff. And there the problem: you just can't get the staff these days. You could say that the change from concerned people to career politicians has muddied the waters or, worse, sucked out all of the oxygen and what's left are the flying fish, surfing to exist above the rivers of effluent...
À propos of the recent charge of my being anti-Scotland, levelled at me in conjunction with my status as expatriate, the reasons I came to this island have been documented on LuLa before, and they dealt mainly with business and having suitable photo-locations on the doorstep rather than by expensive trips away.
However, the general climate there has steadily depreciated, to the extent that it’s now a pop-joke that in Scotland, there are more pandas than Conservative MPs. At last checking, in a country of around six million or so souls, there is but a single such seat. The future and mindset, clearly, isn’t far from where I thought it to be. But the country itself is so full of natural beauty that the human despoliation seems even tougher. Oh well, look upon me as the Conservative MP for Scotland in Mallorca, just as Mr James Bond is the Scottish Nat. one for Lyford Cay, New Providence, Bahamas.
Peace, brothers.
;-)
Rob C
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But let's all face it, a photo-forum is useless for making progress to reconcile our irreconcilable world-views, so slap back and move on.
You're right, of course, Mark, but why spoil it? Poking holes in gaseous balloons is such fun.
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It may be of interest, that among others, Margaret Sanger(founder of planned parenthood) was a prominent member of the movement along with many notables including Alexander Graham Bell, HG Wells and others.
Mike
Right, Mike. It's well known and well documented that Margaret Sanger set up Planned Parenthood to help reduce "lesser races" through abortion, and it seems strange that the very people Margaret considered lesser races use the services of Planned Parenthood disproportionately. Unfortunately, like many others, including Henry Ford and Lindbergh, both Alexander and HG had a tendency to fall on their posteriors when entering areas outside their areas of expertise.
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her insane 'compulsory competitive tendering' for cleaning services gave us MRSA - thanks Maggie
What utter drivel. Microbiology obviously isn't your forte.
Jeremy
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Poor people use Planned Parenthood's services because they are free, and the poor population is disproportionately people of color in America.
And Russ, I'd like you to cite the passage in Planned Parenthood's charter that states their mission is to "reduce lesser races" or anything even remotely like it, before you go about spewing any more of your right wing propaganda.
Not that I expect it would make the least difference to an ideologue like yourself, for whom facts are irrelevant when they go against the party line, but here's what Margaret Sanger herself said about Planned Parenthood's mission:
"Eugenists imply or insist that a woman’s first duty is to the state; we contend that her duty to herself is her first duty to the state. We maintain that a woman possessing an adequate knowledge of her reproductive functions is the best judge of the time and conditions under which her child should be brought into the world. We further maintain that it is her right, regardless of all other considerations, to determine whether she shall bear children or not, and how many children she shall bear if she chooses to become a mother." (Margaret Sanger, 1919)
And that's what really has put the bug up the right's ass in America: empowering women. It enrages and terrifies them.
The fact is that while Sanger did embrace some eugenics in her stance on denying immigration to those with "untreatable, disabling or hereditary conditions", she never endorsed race-based eugenics and always rejected equating "unfit" with race or religion.
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Interesting opinions, Pop. Of course the idea that Planned Parenthood's services are "free" is a crock on the face of it. Nothing is free. In this case, American taxpayers, including many who are convinced that supporting abortion guarantees them an eternity in Hell, are paying, at the point of a gun, for a large part of PP's activities.
And yes, I can find all sorts of BS that Margaret said about PP. I also can find all sorts of things like this: http://www.geocities.ws/mizgeministarz/sanger.html.
Yes, the fact is that Sanger did "embrace some eugenics," but she was a lot more concerned about the extinction of "lesser" people than she was about disabling hereditary conditions. ". . .she never endorsed race-based eugenics. . ?" Seems there's considerable disagreement about that.
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...Of course the idea that Planned Parenthood's services are "free" is a crock on the face of it. Nothing is free. In this case, American taxpayers, including many who are convinced that supporting abortion guarantees them an eternity in Hell, are paying, at the point of a gun, for a large part of PP's activities.
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Just like some of us feel about the military incursions around the globe,
especially Iraq.
Well?
Is there a free pass if you're a really vocal minority saying abortion shouldn't be funded?
A minority.
We should bow to your minority?
Why then can't America just be bullied by less and less people holding more and more power?
Oh wait,
that is what happens, only not this time,
and the 50% of this nation that are women will be sure of it...
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?
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sorry Russ,
I'm just ranting...
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