Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Emilmedia on September 17, 2012, 04:56:23 am
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So I'm a photographer in Sweden, currently shooting a 5D mk ii. My goal is to step further in to the world of commercial shooting and want to build my business on delivering higher quality than the other photographers in my town.
So I've been looking at the h3dii-39 cause it's so much of a camera for low price. But my main problem here is the screen. The resolution on it is as low as on the original 5d. And that's terrible. So is need to tether all the time. But when on location where the is no power available, my laptop (or any that you buy today) don't have FireWire. Is there a solution for this?
Also, what's your thoughts, do you think it's worth saving up to a h4d-40 or a iq-160 to get newer technology?
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It depends on the type of work. If you work outdoors often and you do not use flash light, H4D40 - it will be a great choice. Very good quality above ISO 100 sensitivity Very fast - ideal for fashion. However, there is less than H3D39 matrix.
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I use the enlinchrome quadra flashes and use them on location as well. For high iso work I use the canon camera so I'm looking for a great low iso camera. That's easy to tether to my asus laptop.
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If your laptop use expresscard 34
you need to buy something like this:
http://www.sonnettech.com/product/fw800expresscard34.html
you need know that you need power adapter as well to this card or to firewire repeter/hub
http://www.granitedigital.com/6port1394-b800repeaterhubwuniversalpowersupply.aspx
Keep in mind that
all Hasselblad FireWire powered backs require 10 watts of input power. (H3dX)
So if you want to buy new Retina MBP, don't buy TB/Firewire adapter form Apple ( provides only 7W )
H4D40 is amazing camera... but in good price you can buy second hand H3DII50 and in near future even H4D50 ;-)
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The h3dii-39 I found I can get for $6800, wich in Sweden is a really low price (including taxes). The closest ive found was at $9000. I wouldnt mind a h4d-50 thou. Maybe if I wait a year it will be down at a reasonable price.
My laptop is a Asus n73s, so i dont have any express card slot. And i honestly dont feel even slightly interested in buying a Mac. The problem I see also with that firewire hub is that you need a firewire slot to start with and they require external power. I'd like a solution that maybe fits with a USB 3.0 input and dont need external power. If it even exists?
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Hmmm,
P1 IQ series, Have USB3 socket, but it still don't work. But you can use firewire - because back have own battery. The same - MamiyaLeaf Credo. (have Firewire only)
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So what you are saying is that if i buy the h3dii-39 i have to buy a new computer to teather cause there is no usb 3.0 -> firewire switch/adapter that works?
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In H3DII39 you have only FW800 (1394b). There is no MFDB on the market with USB 3.0 that works.( P1 IQ ) Maybe we will know more tomorrow ;) Photokina ::)
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So my current feeling is to wait for the usb3.0 connection to be activated on the IQ-backs and then buy me a iq160. To be safe for at least a couple of years.
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I think that, first of all, you need to think about which system best works for you. Selection of equipment due to the type of connection is not on my checklist for the top position ... In my opinion, neither FW800 or USB 3.0 are not a solution. Optic TB it will be something 8)
Durable, fast, 20m long....
http://www.macworld.com/article/1166542/optical_cables_for_thunderbolt_ports_shipped_by_sumitomo.html
I wrote about this years ago :)
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The only problem is that i dont want to wait for 8 years ;)
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I think that, first of all, you need to think about which system best works for you. Selection of equipment due to the type of connection is not on my checklist for the top position ... In my opinion, neither FW800 or USB 3.0 are not a solution. Optic TB it will be something 8)
Durable, fast, 20m long....
http://www.macworld.com/article/1166542/optical_cables_for_thunderbolt_ports_shipped_by_sumitomo.html
I wrote about this years ago :)
I'll go on record saying we will not see any cameras with native Thunderbolt connectivity.
It's not a protocol appropriate for this kind of connection.
USB3 is clearly the near and mid term future for camera connections.
Of course I'm just making a highly educated guess - I can always be wrong.
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Also, what's your thoughts, do you think it's worth saving up to a h4d-40 or a iq-160 to get newer technology?
The Credo 40 or IQ140 is more apples-to-apples with the H4D-40.
If budget is a concern a pre-owned or demo Credo 40 is a good option. That would be your lowest cost option for a back with an LCD in that class.
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Emil
I took a look at your work.... nice. You are certainly achieving well with the Canon.
Regarding MFD as an upgrade from that you have I would not bother with anything with a sensor that is 33x44mm... it's just too close to 24x36 especially if you consider that the newest 35mm FF sensors are more advanced.
More than the type of work you do determining if upgrading to MFD is worth while you should decide more based on how your work is published.
This comparison should help. Keep in mind it is a comparison between the D800 and the very top of the line MFB the IQ180.
http://www.circleofconfusion.ie/d800e-vs-phase-one-iq180/ (http://www.circleofconfusion.ie/d800e-vs-phase-one-iq180/)
What I am getting at is that if your work is not printed very large AND VIEWED CLOSE the difference in quality is not that significant.
I think it is important to keep in mind that today quality levels are so high that the quality from less expensive cameras is more than sufficient for the vast majority of publications or use by commercial customers.
With quality levels this high over the board it is becoming more about content and the quality you produce in front of the lens.
Anyway I think that your idea of getting the Hassy 39 is a good idea to "investigate" MFD and see how you like it.
It's not too expensive and at a price that enthusiasts would still buy one for so if you decide to go in another direction
you can re sell it at about the same price +/-.
As far as getting an IQ back instead of the Hasselblad keep in mind that the technology difference from an image quality point of view is not that significant. It's more about ergonomics and screen. There are some improvements like better live view, but that live view is still far inferior to what you have with Canon. Also an 80MP sensor is not twice as sharp as a 40MP sensor. Sharpness is a linear function so look at horizontal pixel count. 7212 vs 10328.
One last thing. Before getting an MFD system I would take a close look at Carl Zeiss's new lenses for 35mm cameras. Very large lens designs that might just be what the top FF 35mm dslr cameras may need to show their full potential. The over size designs give the designer more freedom to produce a different type of look.
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The Credo 40 or IQ140 is more apples-to-apples with the H4D-40.
If budget is a concern a pre-owned or demo Credo 40 is a good option. That would be your lowest cost option for a back with an LCD in that class.
The reason that I want the 160 is the larger sensor. Also the mamiya leaf backs are really rare here in Sweden :/
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Emil
I took a look at your work.... nice. You are certainly achieving well with the Canon.
Regarding MFD as an upgrade from that you have I would not bother with anything with a sensor that is 33x44mm... it's just too close to 24x36 especially if you consider that the newest 35mm FF sensors are more advanced.
More than the type of work you do determining if upgrading to MFD is worth while you should decide more based on how your work is published.
This comparison should help. Keep in mind it is a comparison between the D800 and the very top of the line MFB the IQ180.
http://www.circleofconfusion.ie/d800e-vs-phase-one-iq180/ (http://www.circleofconfusion.ie/d800e-vs-phase-one-iq180/)
What I am getting at is that if your work is not printed very large AND VIEWED CLOSE the difference in quality is not that significant.
I think it is important to keep in mind that today quality levels are so high that the quality from less expensive cameras is more than sufficient for the vast majority of publications or use by commercial customers.
With quality levels this high over the board it is becoming more about content and the quality you produce in front of the lens.
Anyway I think that your idea of getting the Hassy 39 is a good idea to "investigate" MFD and see how you like it.
It's not too expensive and at a price that enthusiasts would still buy one for so if you decide to go in another direction
you can re sell it at about the same price +/-.
As far as getting an IQ back instead of the Hasselblad keep in mind that the technology difference from an image quality point of view is not that significant. It's more about ergonomics and screen. There are some improvements like better live view, but that live view is still far inferior to what you have with Canon. Also an 80MP sensor is not twice as sharp as a 40MP sensor. Sharpness is a linear function so look at horizontal pixel count. 7212 vs 10328.
One last thing. Before getting an MFD system I would take a close look at Carl Zeiss's new lenses for 35mm cameras. Very large lens designs that might just be what the top FF 35mm dslr cameras may need to show their full potential. The over size designs give the designer more freedom to produce a different type of look.
Thanks for the complements. Honestly I know the difference is small. But even if I'm really new in this business I really want to give he impression that I in all aspects deliver a professional product. Some of my Band pictures are printed on posters but other than that its more magazines and those just gers as big as 30x40 cm. at the same time, I don't want to be limited. I've been going over the decision in my head the last year.
It's eather leaning towards the cheaper h3d or waiting for used iq160s to show up.
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I'll go on record saying we will not see any cameras with native Thunderbolt connectivity.
It's not a protocol appropriate for this kind of connection.
USB3 is clearly the near and mid term future for camera connections.
Of course I'm just making a highly educated guess - I can always be wrong.
There's no camera, but if it was I would buy this camera.
Why the protocol is not appropriate for such a connection? Please explain if you can. What is the difference between TB and 1394b / USB 3.0
Thanks in advance
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Thanks for the complements. Honestly I know the difference is small. But even if I'm really new in this business I really want to give he impression that I in all aspects deliver a professional product. Some of my Band pictures are printed on posters but other than that its more magazines and those just gers as big as 30x40 cm. at the same time, I don't want to be limited. I've been going over the decision in my head the last year.
It's eather leaning towards the cheaper h3d or waiting for used iq160s to show up.
Good decision, I think that you buy cheap and you will be pleased
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Thanks for the complements. Honestly I know the difference is small. But even if I'm really new in this business I really want to give he impression that I in all aspects deliver a professional product.
If you are really new to the business the compliments are more than merited. I think it is safe to say that your work speaks for itself.
You should explore other formats. The Hassey for the price you found is a good way to do that.
Much better than putting all the money into a far more expensive IQ160 right away.
Keep in mind that for professional use you will need to have a backup.
You can use your Canon as a back up, but that may not go down well if you "sold yourself" as MF.
Another thing you can look into is also using your new digital back on a Fuji gx680 for additional functionality like tilt shift
as well as 6x8 film. It would not be very expensive to add onto a Medium Format kit.
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If you are really new to the business the compliments are more than merited. I think it is safe to say that your work speaks for itself.
You should explore other formats. The Hassey for the price you found is a good way to do that.
Much better than putting all the money into a far more expensive IQ160 right away.
Keep in mind that for professional use you will need to have a backup.
Yeah well - big thanks anyway. I've been serious about developing my shooting for a year and been making money from it for four months. So compared to people who have been shooting for 30-40 years I guess I'm quite new. So all complements, tips and critiques makes a difference.
I was thinking of keeping the 5d mk ii as backup. It's quite competent as a spare I guess. And if I buy a hassy I'd need a complete extra body/back outfit. Not just extra back. And that money just don't exist today, it's honestly quite a stretch to buy one already.
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I was thinking of keeping the 5d mk ii as backup. It's quite competent as a spare I guess. And if I buy a hassy I'd need a complete extra body/back outfit. Not just extra back. And that money just don't exist today, it's honestly quite a stretch to buy one already.
You can always rent your backup Hasselblad gear. The good thing is that if the client is on a budget and not to happy about renting a backup
he will most likely be OK with a Canon backup.
Another thing to keep in mind is that Hasselblad just came out with a tether plugin for Lightroom so you can work in the same software
as your Canon.. especially useful if you are doing a mixed shoot.
Also regarding the screen size. While the screen on the IQ is very nice it won't really be good enough on set on location. You really want to have a laptop in a black tent
to view files well as well as add production value to your shoot. Regarding the Firewire.. there are still good PC laptops with firewire.
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Why is there a need to tether the H3DII-39 at all times? Mine accepts CF cards...
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Emil,
I am primarily a studio portrait photographer using a Canon 5Dmk2 and H3D2-39 and four lenses.
I can tell you when I am retouching images and I go from the Hassie files to the Canon fies I think the Canon ones are out of focus even if they are perfectly focused.
Yes, the LCD of the H3D2-39 is not great. I generally have an old Hassie film loupe on my camera stand..... But I used the loupe on back of both cameras. Loupes are great.
H3D2-39 can deliver world class files. Period. It is also an excellent choice for the first time mfd buyer.
I haven't tethered my camera as my workflow is cf cards, but I believe you can tether using Pocus and possibly Lightroom. I would check with someone with more experience in Hassie tethering.
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I really believe that the only time a 5d file shot in a controlled environment looks bad is when directly compared to an MFD file. On a screen, before post. Printed on a web press? Magazines? Web jpegs? No real differences that aren't the result of the characteristics of the lenses used.
My suggestion would be spend as little money as possible on cameras. Spend the money on producing images, or lighting. Nothing says Professional like a great portfolio. Any hack can buy an expensive camera.
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So my current feeling is to wait for the usb3.0 connection to be activated on the IQ-backs and then buy me a iq160. To be safe for at least a couple of years.
If you can rent/test setups first. But the IQ with FireWire works fine with the ThunderBolt to FireWire adapter on the MBP-Retina. PhaseOne has a PDF on what settings to use so you don't run into trouble. Although I have been using mine with without using their settings and have not run into any problems—both IQ160 and IQ180.
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I really believe that the only time a 5d file shot in a controlled environment looks bad is when directly compared to an MFD file. On a screen, before post. Printed on a web press? Magazines? Web jpegs? No real differences that aren't the result of the characteristics of the lenses used.
My suggestion would be spend as little money as possible on cameras. Spend the money on producing images, or lighting. Nothing says Professional like a great portfolio. Any hack can buy an expensive camera.
I agree.
I often get photographers asking me about medium format... actually more than a question they repeat much of the marketing mumbo jumbo looking for my approval.
My answer tends to be around the lines of work on getting the best out of your 35mm dslr. To drive the point home I show them this image shot with a "vintage" Canon 1ds and an inexpensive 100mm f2 (non L lens) wide open at f2
(http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6021/5963259140_a5d90afb86_b.jpg)
(http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6009/5961735537_d78f0487f3_b.jpg)
I bought a combo like this for a friend for 850 total... lens and camera.
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Dear Doug,
Can you answer my question?
Enter the reason that "TB" is not suitable for this purpose.
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I agree.
I often get photographers asking me about medium format... actually more than a question they repeat much of the marketing mumbo jumbo looking for my approval.
My answer tends to be around the lines of work on getting the best out of your 35mm dslr. To drive the point home I show them this image shot with a "vintage" Canon 1ds and an inexpensive 100mm f2 (non L lens) wide open at f2
I'm well aware that the difference between the 5D MK II and the Hassy will be small. At least in term of sharpness. But thats just one of the factors. Same goes with MP-count. In all honesty I think the biggest difference will be my work flow. To take more time on arranging a shoot and put more effort in cropping in camera. The extra bit of information i get to use in post is more a bonus.
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Emil,
I am primarily a studio portrait photographer using a Canon 5Dmk2 and H3D2-39 and four lenses.
I can tell you when I am retouching images and I go from the Hassie files to the Canon fies I think the Canon ones are out of focus even if they are perfectly focused.
Yes, the LCD of the H3D2-39 is not great. I generally have an old Hassie film loupe on my camera stand..... But I used the loupe on back of both cameras. Loupes are great.
H3D2-39 can deliver world class files. Period. It is also an excellent choice for the first time mfd buyer.
I haven't tethered my camera as my workflow is cf cards, but I believe you can tether using Pocus and possibly Lightroom. I would check with someone with more experience in Hassie tethering.
I've been wondering, is the screen as bad as on the 5D, the first one? I mean, on that one i cant even see if the exposure is decent.
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I've been wondering, is the screen as bad as on the 5D, the first one? I mean, on that one i cant even see if the exposure is decent.
The screen isn't wonderful, but it has a histogram. Actually, you can turn the main LCD screen off and enable a histogram display on the small, top-side LCD every time you take a photo.
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The only problem i see with that is i like to get skin tones as close to as i want them when i take the pictures. Just checking the histogram wont help me unfortunately :/
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On location you cannot really judge exposure or skin tones with the on camera screens.
You really need to use a Tablet PC with a calibrated monitor in a black laptop tent/viewing station.
I also use a black cape to cover my head and shoulders.
However exposure can be checked quite well on the histogram and skin tone is best when doing the correct
white balancing.
You can always use a really nice and compact Samsung Slate PC. It's a tablet that runs windows and you can calibrate the screen with
screen calibrators. Also the screen is really high quality. Gives the very best pro screens a run for the money. All you will have to do is
use your memory card to move the files over. It's actually quicker then you would think. It has a very fast processor and runs lightroom very well.
Lightroom is also very touch screen friendly. Also on location it can often be more practical to use a memory card than tethering.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8006/7103812593_5fe07605c3_b.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7103/7103806245_6fbeafde2e_b.jpg)
The wide screen works nicely with the 5x4 aspect ratio of MF so you can view the whole image and still have room for controls on the side.
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I've been wondering, is the screen as bad as on the 5D, the first one? I mean, on that one i cant even see if the exposure is decent.
The H3D2-39 screen is better than original 5D screen as it is larger. I would say when I use my loupe I prefer the newer 5Dmk2 to the H3D2.
However, it always makes me smile when I look at fickle on screen compared to LCD on it. The screen image is just a guide, not what I find in the file (although it's ok to do a quick exposure check). I just did formal groups for an outdoor engagement party at noon with river background and no shade on a windy day. I had two small strobes to fill in raccoon eye shadows, best I could do with wind and no assistant. Images in LCD seem to show I wasn't filling in the shadows as well as I wanted, but when I looked at files on monitor they were much better than they initially looked.
To me it is an embarrassment more than a liability. You'd expect that class of camera to have a good LCD (and eyecup). But it doesn't. However, if you are careful with exposure and focus and understand your dof differences from dslr, it is rarely a problem. You have to put your faith in yourself rather than the equipment.
To those who can't tell the difference in prints between mfd and dslr must not be producing larger prints or photographing groups. Or they are not actual users of mfd.
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FredBGG:
I like your idea. Wireless tethering would be sooo awesome to that. But in all honestly, removing my card to check focus and colours sounds as hot as shake a polaroid.
David:
When i compare d800 or 5d footage thats been shrunk to web size to a Hassy file. I still see a difference. Def not in all pictures, but some. Partially cause of the DOF but also the 3D-feel the great lenses and dof give together.
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. . . .
To those who can't tell the difference in prints between mfd and dslr must not be producing larger prints or photographing groups. Or they are not actual users of mfd.
I can see differences in lenses/formats at 16x20, but not really anything else, assuming the file was worked in post. All of my output was printed on a web press in magazines and for the web. When i shot lots of beauty the destination was a web press or in store displays output on a Chromera machine. I used a back for these, because at the time the best 35mm camera was the 1ds2, which didn't cut it for color accuracy for cosmetics clients. This was in 2004-2007. I wanted to shoot 4x5 and 8x10 chromes. But now, after post and at 16x20, I don't see much of a difference that isn't derived from the lenses used. I'm sure as a portrait studio you need the resolution, especially for groups.
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If you like the 3d look take a look at a Leica M9. Even the M8 was awesome.
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There is too many options. The leicas are too small for me. Just a question of design.
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FredBGG -
The slate info is great, thanks for posting. And the portrait shot you showed above is also a fine piece of work.
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Is it possible to connect a firewire card to the slate?
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There is too many options. The leicas are too small for me. Just a question of design.
The M9 is limiting and frustrating for anythinh where you want to acurately frame a subject. The new M, on the other hand, well, problem solved.
I always found that clients loved the Leica images but we always shot the job with a TTL camera to honor the creative brief.
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the slate looks awesome Fred.
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I really believe that the only time a 5d file shot in a controlled environment looks bad is when directly compared to an MFD file. On a screen, before post. Printed on a web press? Magazines? Web jpegs? No real differences that aren't the result of the characteristics of the lenses used.
My suggestion would be spend as little money as possible on cameras. Spend the money on producing images, or lighting. Nothing says Professional like a great portfolio. Any hack can buy an expensive camera.
Very good advice; it's all that swamp pop rock: you get down to basics.
;-)
Rob C
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Little Band of Gold, Rob.
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Little Band of Gold, Rob.
Yeah, but I'm more into the blues end of that spectrum:
http://youtu.be/QcriNmPyY-Q
What can you do when you grow up with Fats Domino in your head, as well as New Orleans jazz?
Rob C
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Professor Longhair Rob. Fats didn't tour for a long time because he hated the food outside of South Louisiana. When he was successful he brought a chef with him and traveled by train.
T
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the slate looks awesome Fred.
Screen quality is really good. Even calibration with the Spyder pro makes only a small change.