Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: georgl on July 11, 2012, 04:04:34 am
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Many users of "medium-format"/"larger-than-35mm" systems seem to wait for an entirely new generation of cameras based on CMOS-technology for higher frame-rates, higher sensitivity and proper live-view.
Only very few sensor-vendors are capable of manufacturing CMOS-imaging-sensors and stitching them beyond the size-limitations of the production process (approx. 20x30mm) - Canon and Sony are currently the only vendors I'm aware of and neither of them has shown any interest in going beyond 24x36mm.
There have been rumors and people in another forum found this interesting statement from STmicroelectronics, the biggest European (Dutch/French/Swiss) vendor for
semiconductor products:
Demonstrated first images of a high-end “35mm” digital single-lens reflex CMOS sensor, based on 90nm technology with 2-Directional color stitching capability on 12” wafer size.
and
Digital still camera: Design win, business award in samples stage of a high performance large image sensor for a leading brand
Who is the "leading brand"? We can highly doubt that it's a Japanese manufacturer, since they don't usually source from European suppliers and most of them have no interest in going full-frame or beyond. The remaining "leading brands" are Phase One, Hasselblad and Leica. Strong rumors suggest that it's the S3/EVIL-sensor since Leica has made strong investments in the past years without releasing significant new products. The "2-Directional stitching" is used for both, 24x36mm and MF-sized sensors - although the quote mentions a 35mm-DSLR - which isn't expected from any of the companies.
(source: http://www.st.com/internet/com/press_release/c2667.jsp / http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External.File?item=UGFyZW50SUQ9MTQxMjkyfENoaWxkSUQ9LTF8VHlwZT0z&t=1)
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ST is mostly French/Italian, aren't they?
The company is the result of the merge btwn SGS (Italy) and Thomson (French) 25 years ago.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Knowing nothing really, but isn't Leica expected to introduce both an S3 and a M10 and the M10 is rumored to have movie capability indicating both a 35mm CMOS and a larger one.
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Knowing nothing really, but isn't Leica expected to introduce both an S3 and a M10 and the M10 is rumored to have movie capability indicating both a 35mm CMOS and a larger one.
With all due respect to a friend, that's a heck of a prediction to throw out here. The drums are probably beating loudly somewhere.
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Hi,
In my view, an M-series camera with live view would make a lot of sense. Such a camera would be able to use both M and R series lenses. There must be a wealth of orphaned R-lenses around since Leica laid off the R-series.
Best regards
Erik
Many users of "medium-format"/"larger-than-35mm" systems seem to wait for an entirely new generation of cameras based on CMOS-technology for higher frame-rates, higher sensitivity and proper live-view.
Only very few sensor-vendors are capable of manufacturing CMOS-imaging-sensors and stitching them beyond the size-limitations of the production process (approx. 20x30mm) - Canon and Sony are currently the only vendors I'm aware of and neither of them has shown any interest in going beyond 24x36mm.
There have been rumors and people in another forum found this interesting statement from STmicroelectronics, the biggest European (Dutch/French/Swiss) vendor for
semiconductor products:
and
Who is the "leading brand"? We can highly doubt that it's a Japanese manufacturer, since they don't usually source from European suppliers and most of them have no interest in going full-frame or beyond. The remaining "leading brands" are Phase One, Hasselblad and Leica. Strong rumors suggest that it's the S3/EVIL-sensor since Leica has made strong investments in the past years without releasing significant new products. The "2-Directional stitching" is used for both, 24x36mm and MF-sized sensors - although the quote mentions a 35mm-DSLR - which isn't expected from any of the companies.
(source: http://www.st.com/internet/com/press_release/c2667.jsp / http://phx.corporate-ir.net/External.File?item=UGFyZW50SUQ9MTQxMjkyfENoaWxkSUQ9LTF8VHlwZT0z&t=1)
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With all due respect to a friend, that's a heck of a prediction to throw out here. The drums are probably beating loudly somewhere.
Hehe but it was only a question! We may not see an S3 but Herr Kauffman has already talked about video in the M10 so....
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A home for R lenses would be a major treat, just on its own.
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Pentax maybe? They already manufacture many CMOS models.
Hasselblad and Phase One have no or little CMOS experience.
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Hi,
I guess that this is more about sensor availability than CCD vs. CMOS experience. Also, I would assume that the sensor vendor also offers interface electronics, not just the chip.
Best regards
Erik
Pentax maybe? They already manufacture many CMOS models.
Hasselblad and Phase One have no or little CMOS experience.
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Hasselblad did make a CMOS camera back in 2000 in collaboration with Foveon, it was special applications and called the Dfinity and connected via firewire. Hasselblad's history of digital involvement goes back further than many people think. I saw a prototype but sadly I did not get to use one. Put Hasselblad Dfinity into your search engine to discover more.
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I doubt that Pentax will show publicly the 645D2 at Photokina but I guess it will all depends on how much pressure they feel on the 645D and if they want the bragging rights of being the first to introduce such a model in mass production (assuming that Leica has a S3 with a CMOS near launch).
My bet is that they will try to get as much as possible from the last part of the 645D's life by allowing dealers to run offers with 10-20% discounts from the list price or making bundles with camera and lenses (by PK 55mm, 25mm ad 90mm) and they will save the world premier of the 645D2 for CP+ 2013 the most important show in their most important market, Japan. Which starts on the January 31st 2013.
BR,
Radu
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FWIW the Leaf C-MOST and its predecessor the Valeo 6 used a 6MP, 14-bit, 24x36mm CMOS chip. The Valeo 6 was a portable product and was able to shoot almost 2 fps ;)
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It doesn't really need specific know-how to implement off-the-shelf CMOS- instead of CCD-sensors. Their implementation is usually well specified by the vendor (except for exclusive designs) and most of the processing is often already included.
The big issue is to convince a vendor to invest into stitching-technology to create a full-frame CMOS-sensor that usually cannot be used for "regular" applications many vendors operate in (machine vision, smartphones..). It propably takes a serious investment and hopefully Leica did that in favor of another "me too"-Sony-sensor.
Apparently, the M10-rumors are true: http://leicarumors.com/2012/07/13/is-this-the-leica-m10.aspx/
It's quite reasonable to believe that they will share a common electronic architecture in the S- and M-system for the future.
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FWIW the Leaf C-MOST and its predecessor the Valeo 6 used a 6MP, 14-bit, 24x36mm CMOS chip. The Valeo 6 was a portable product and was able to shoot almost 2 fps ;)
Oh yes: IIRC, that was a sensor from Scitex that used the same FillFactory CMOS sensor technology as was used several years later in the Kodak 14N, and it was manufactured by the same foundry, Tower Semiconductor. Did it have the same good DR but bad noise at high ISO speed as the 14N?
Anyway, this is more evidence that a number of companies can design and fabricate a CMOS sensor in 36x24mm format, and anyway, Leica could also get a very nice 36x24mm CMOS sensor from Sony. The big question is the economic and technical viability of making a sensor larger than that, like 45x30mm for the Leica S2 format.
(The other question is why some people think that a newcomer to the design of large CMOS sensors would do better than Sony's recent efforts!)
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I would love a 22mp CMOS medium format back with decent ISO6400 on it.
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Yeah High ISO please!