Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: FredBGG on July 11, 2012, 03:08:56 am
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Interesting...
http://www.mamiya.co.jp/saku-factory_2012.pdf
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The pictures are particularly ugly!
PdF
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Thank you, very interesting find! A glimpse into production often tells you more about a company than all the marketing and tests published... ::)
Indeed, the machines are certainly not state-of-the-art anymore, although maybe sufficient for many applications when the employees are trained and skilled enough.
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Thanks for sharing that!
This caught my eye: "New #1 shutter being developed". Could imply that there are larger-aperture LS lenses in the pipeline for the 645.
Ray
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Thanks for sharing that!
This caught my eye: "New #1 shutter being developed". Could imply that there are larger-aperture LS lenses in the pipeline for the 645.
Ray
My thoughts exactly! It would be nice if it were true
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Thank you, very interesting find! A glimpse into production often tells you more about a company than all the marketing and tests published... ::)
Indeed, the machines are certainly not state-of-the-art anymore, although maybe sufficient for many applications when the employees are trained and skilled enough.
Aside from the multispindle machine, which looks like it may have been custom built for milling focus helicoids, the rest of their CNC machinery looks reasonably current, and the Okuma LB2000 lathe is a current model. The Mitutoyo CMM is also a current model. Seems like a pretty standard mix of machinery vintages to me, no less diverse than what I've seen fortune 500 companies cutting defense, nuclear, space, and medical implants on.
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@PeteZ28
Maybe I'm spoiled by seeing the Zeiss plant Oberkochen ;D Newest DMG-machines and even hydrostatic Kern (easily >1Mio$ each)... And this is the "low-precision" (~10-1µm) department and not even their semiconductor-optics/mechanics production! It's time that Zeiss goes back into the photography-lens business... They make spectacular f1.2-lenses for cinematography-applications with great success and all we get are designs that Cosina can manufacture...
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@PeteZ28
Maybe I'm spoiled by seeing the Zeiss plant Oberkochen ;D Newest DMG-machines and even hydrostatic Kern (easily >1Mio$ each)... And this is the "low-precision" (~10-1µm) department and not even their semiconductor-optics/mechanics production! It's time that Zeiss goes back into the photography-lens business... They make spectacular f1.2-lenses for cinematography-applications with great success and all we get are designs that Cosina can manufacture...
Ahh... yes that very well could be the case. I'm sure the Zeiss plant is spare no expense (their products sure are!). I think overall they are just operating at a different level than Mamiya entirely. Mamiya is focused largely on digital imaging, be it photography or now industrial imaging. Zeiss has always been a very diverse, high end optics company. Do one thing and do it very, very, very well. High end optics are always going to demanding, whereas most camera body components are of comparatively lower precision. Mamiya would need far less high end, sophisticated equipment to manufacture their products.
Did you get to see the Zeiss plant in person, is there an online video you could share? I'd love to see the inside of their facility! Having worked in the manufacturing/machining environment for nearly 20 years, I'm still continuously impressed at the innovation I see when I walk into a new operation.
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Maybe we should include other findings of photography-related factory presentations? I'm only aware of a very superficial (final assembly) Leica video!?
Regarding Zeiss:
I've visited the HQ in person but most of the tour segments weren't dealing with photographic equipment, sadly... But what I saw was really impressive, it's the number one optics company worldwide, period. They control entire market segments where even Nikon and Canon have given up to compete (EUV-mirrors for next-gen semiconductor production with less than 0.15nm!!! height deviation - custom-made manufacturing and measurement technology). There are basically no pictures on the net - their makreting is German: it sucks.
And what do they offer for photographers? As most German companies, they don't like the "consumer-market" and they only offer lenses when sombody is ordering them (they're only in the cinematography-business because of ARRI). When Hasselblad thought they could get their new lenses cheaper elsewhere (and didn't order re-designs for 30 year old designs), Zeiss lost interest in the whole market. All they do now is putting their precious label on Cosina- or Sony-lenses, while Leica cannot even manufacture enough 10k$ Noctilux-lenses... ???
Mr. Zeiss, Mr. Abbe, arise from your grave and give us some Master Primes for 24x36mm and beyond! ::)
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Maybe we should include other findings of photography-related factory presentations? I'm only aware of a very superficial (final assembly) Leica video!?
Regarding Zeiss:
I've visited the HQ in person but most of the tour segments weren't dealing with photographic equipment, sadly... But what I saw was really impressive, it's the number one optics company worldwide, period. They control entire market segments where even Nikon and Canon have given up to compete (EUV-mirrors for next-gen semiconductor production with less than 0.15nm!!! height deviation - custom-made manufacturing and measurement technology). There are basically no pictures on the net - their makreting is German: it sucks.
And what do they offer for photographers? As most German companies, they don't like the "consumer-market" and they only offer lenses when sombody is ordering them (they're only in the cinematography-business because of ARRI). When Hasselblad thought they could get their new lenses cheaper elsewhere (and didn't order re-designs for 30 year old designs), Zeiss lost interest in the whole market. All they do now is putting their precious label on Cosina- or Sony-lenses, while Leica cannot even manufacture enough 10k$ Noctilux-lenses... ???
Mr. Zeiss, Mr. Abbe, arise from your grave and give us some Master Primes for 24x36mm and beyond! ::)
So the Zeiss lenses sold for quite princely sums for 35mm SLR's / DSLR's are not even made by Zeiss? ???
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its pretty well known that consumer lenses by zeiss are made in japan!
they said the newly redesigned 15mm lens would cost 5000$ and more if it would be produced in germany.
i still wanna know which qatary person ordered the 1700mm lens and what did it cost him :P
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Canon camera manufacturing.
http://youtu.be/Lkv0Sc2MxP8 (http://youtu.be/Lkv0Sc2MxP8)
Canon Lens manufacturing
http://youtu.be/MKNFW0YwDYw (http://youtu.be/MKNFW0YwDYw)
What Carl Zeiss is upto...
http://youtu.be/Y50SGqC7pJE (http://youtu.be/Y50SGqC7pJE)
http://youtu.be/WbukKUi3vHw (http://youtu.be/WbukKUi3vHw)
Nikon also makes semiconductor manufacturing equipment
http://www.nikon.com/products/precision/lineup/nsr/index.htm (http://www.nikon.com/products/precision/lineup/nsr/index.htm)
Fuji Film is very active in semiconductor materials and processes.
Canon is heavily invested in industrial lithography systems
http://www.canon.com/products/industry.html (http://www.canon.com/products/industry.html)
It seems that the most successful camera manufacturers have some very high tech divisions in other fields.
At the same time companies that are limited to only camera manufacturing are not doing so well.
I think this is largely due to the fact that the type of technology involved in modern cameras requires
knowledge and research that cannot be supported by only camera sales.
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http://www.thereportage.com/index.php?p=1&ida=123# (http://www.thereportage.com/index.php?p=1&ida=123#)
Hasselblad assembly factory.
Keep in mind though that most of the H camera is made in Japan by Fuji.
Some assembly in Sweeden.
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The pictures are particularly ugly!
PdF
I think it's more of an industrial / financial presentation.
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<<I think it's more of an industrial / financial presentation.>>
I made many images of industrial sites. I could measure the different ways to present an industrial process. A manufacturer of photo equipment could have a good image. This does probably not interested Mamiya.
I would not have been very proud to present such images to my client.
PdF
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i still wanna know which qatary person ordered the 1700mm lens and what did it cost him
If I remember correctly, a sheik visited the factory and asked for a lens to take pics of his flying falcons. Zeiss that said such a lens would be possible but not feasible as a unique copy. A few months later he made the payment together with other sheiks who also ordered the lens... It was ~2M$ each!
Seeing the pics from the Hasselblad facility makes me sad and angry! They build an entirely new HQ, ergonomic, nice workplaces making the best MF-cameras in the world! Then they killed it off by buying the cheapish plastic (yes, I know, the frame underneath is metal) Fuji and about 450 of 500 (~) highly-skilled employees in Gotenburg lost their jobs! They wouldn't even be able to make a 200 or 500 series camera anymore! They could have designed a wonderful new AF-system but not a Mamia 645-copy with central shutter... Argh, don't get me started! Mr. Hasselblad should have given the company to a foundation like Zeiss did...
Thanks FredBGG!
And what do you see from Zeiss production? They are too humble^^ (or too stupid to show off and point out differences to Cosina) I have experience with "international production networks" and despite much higher salaries, the core facilities are often operating cheaper because they're more efficient. Why they're offshoring production? Ask the very same people who ruin worldwide economy... The Cosina lenses are only cheaper because of lower quality-standards - the lens grinding, mechanics machining and assembly is certainly not slower or less efficient in Oberkochen/Jena...
Of course Master Primes are not feasible for photography but implementing this technology into a photographic line-up would be a great success - Investing 3k$-10k$ into a lens makes more sense than ever, IMHO.
Just as a comparison, while they're showing off the Cosina-made 15mm with halfway usable IQ near corners, they make the MP 12mm in Oberkochen/Jena with 90° horizontal angle of view and higher IQ @ f1.2 !!!
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Regarding Zeiss:
And what do they offer for photographers? As most German companies, they don't like the "consumer-market"
Looking on the state of the German economy, I'm sure there is some reasoning behind it.
And which German companies are you talking about? Daimler Benz? Audi? Porsche?
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Try to find products "Made in Germany" besides cars for the end consumer - and still they export trillions... Zeiss could offer superior products to the high-end consumer market but instead they just sell their brand...
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http://youtu.be/WbukKUi3vHw (http://youtu.be/WbukKUi3vHw)
I worked at (and continue to be a vendor for) a company that did a lot of high end machining for AMSL, in particular this machine: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZNxneIv6ms
They actually use a drop of water as a final conduit for the light source to reduce the etch size. Very neat project to be involved in even if it's just a small role. I don't know exactly what these were doing in the machine but there were lots of high tolerances and wacky materials being used for thermal stability, and I sense from some of the part names and the tolerances that these were critical parts of the optical system. Some of the parts had literally hundreds of hours of machining in them. Fun stuff!
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http://www.thereportage.com/index.php?p=1&ida=123# (http://www.thereportage.com/index.php?p=1&ida=123#)
Hasselblad assembly factory.
Keep in mind though that most of the H camera is made in Japan by Fuji.
Some assembly in Sweeden.
It says I have to be a qualified professional Editorial business to sign up :(
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Try to find products "Made in Germany" besides cars for the end consumer - and still they export trillions... Zeiss could offer superior products to the high-end consumer market but instead they just sell their brand...
There are thousands of products "Made it Germany".
Zeiss: Why should they? Does it make economical sense to them? If yes, they would do it, if not, they just sell out the brand name and control somebody else's manufacturing it.
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@heinrichvoelkel
Many companies set the benchmark technology-wise but they avoid any consumer-market. Zeiss is typical, they have state-of-the-art technology which would vastly improve quality of photographic lenses, but all they offer are mediocre lenses made by Cosina. I think Leica has shown that there is a profitable market for expensive high-end-lenses.
@PeteZ28
I've used the free registration, it just needs a valid E-Mail-address but I can send you the slightly larger versions if you're interested.
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http://www.thereportage.com/index.php?p=1&ida=123# (http://www.thereportage.com/index.php?p=1&ida=123#)
Hasselblad assembly factory.
Keep in mind though that most of the H camera is made in Japan by Fuji.
Some assembly in Sweeden.
I would like to correct this inaccuracy.
100% of the H camera body and digital magazines are manufactured in Gothenburg, Sweden.
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I would like to correct this inaccuracy.
100% of the H camera body and digital magazines are manufactured in Gothenburg, Sweden.
Well how would you know Paul? I mean even though Hasselblad representatives have corrected this inaccuracy countless times on this forum, surely non-Hasselblad employees would know better than you? ::)
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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Well how would you know Paul? I mean even though Hasselblad representatives have corrected this inaccuracy countless times on this forum, surely non-Hasselblad employees would know better than you? ::)
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
Steve, this topic has been discussed numerous times across numerous forums over the past 10 years and yet we still address it. I am simply doing my part....
This September will mark the 10th anniversary of the introduction of the H camera system.
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Steve, this topic has been discussed numerous times across numerous forums over the past 10 years and yet we still address it. I am simply doing my part....
This September will mark the 10th anniversary of the introduction of the H camera system.
Some people never learn!
Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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"This September will mark the 10th anniversary of the introduction of the H camera system."
Will,definitely, be a source of pride from all the good folks at Fuji. :)
Mark
www.marktomalty.com
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Will,definitely, be a source of pride from all the good folks at Fuji. in Hasselblad, Sweden.
Fixed that for you ;D
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100% of the H camera body and digital magazines are manufactured in Gothenburg, Sweden.
As a proud, new 202FA-owner I will have to ask again: what about the H-System is Hasselblad and what is Fuji? Even the accessoires say "Made in Japan".
My information: the "mechanics/optics"-department (without the former Imacon-department) went from ~ 500 employees to ~50 employees, the new site was abandoned. The central shutter and the final assembly/QC is done by Hasselblad as well as critical specifications - the rest is Fuji.
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http://www.thereportage.com/index.php?p=1&ida=123# (http://www.thereportage.com/index.php?p=1&ida=123#)
Hasselblad assembly factory.
Keep in mind though that most of the H camera is made in Japan by Fuji.
Some assembly in Sweeden.
Today you will find SVT, the swedish public television in this building, not Hasselblad.
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I would like to correct this inaccuracy.
100% of the H camera body and digital magazines are manufactured in Gothenburg, Sweden.
100% in Sweeden? Digital backs in Sweeden????
Possibly the body, but not the backs, prism, lenses.
The digital backs are made in Denmark... or at least were.
(http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/1/1/1/4/0/9/8/webimg/538002262_o.jpg)
Prism Japan
(http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss71/narcyz-przemo/Buy%20it%20Now%20eBay%202/DSC02339.jpg)
Film back
(http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/ac353/exposurelock/9th%20Nov%202011%20exposurelock%20Ltd/23rdNov2011exposurelockcom151345.jpg)
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100% in Sweeden? Digital backs in Sweeden????
The digital backs are made in Denmark... or at least were.
Hasselblad recently centralised its Danish and Swedish operations in Sweden:
Press Release
Copenhagen, June 29th 2012
Hasselblad announces a single manufacturing centre
The world’s premium medium format camera manufacturer is set to centralise its Danish
and Swedish production and service functions in Gothenburg, Sweden.
The decision to relocate the Copenhagen-based element of the company’s production and service
function forms part of a long-term growth and efficiency strategy outlined last year by Hasselblad
management.
Hasselblad CEO Dr. Larry Hansen said: “We plan to implement strategies that will continue to
provide our customers with the premium quality service they exp ect from Hasselblad.
In this case, we believe this is best achieved by managing this vital element of our business in the
future from a single centre in Sweden. As a result, our deliveries will be more efficient and turnaround
times for customers across the world will be reduced.”
He added: “Regrettably this relocation means we had to make redundancies in Copenhagen but we
ensured resources for providing needed care to our customers.”
Hasselblad also plans a move from its current Copenhagen administrative HQ to new modern
premises closer to the airport in August.
Dr. Hansen said: “Our old building has served us well in the past but now it’s not really fit for our
purposes in the 21st century. Our new high-tech premises, complete with international standard
conference facilities and a more convenient location, provide us with the ultra-modern offices we
need for the future.”
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Gladly the old owner Shriro, which is most likely responsible for the layoffs and losses, was replaced by a new owner. Who is Ventizz? Have they shown interest in actual long-term investments?
A few more pics from the former Hasselblad production:
http://thomasmayerarchive.de/categories.php?cat_id=2431&l=english
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Hello Fred,
My statement was specific for the body and digital magazines. Hasselblad transitioned the service, support, manufacturing and primary R & D to Gothenburg, Sweden as of June 29, 2012, JV was kind enough to post the Press Release (Thank you JV). You will see the backs marked in the future "Made in Sweden". Yes, the viewfinders and film magazines are manufactured by Fuji. You can search past postings on this topic by David and myself on this and other forums.
Regarding the HC/HCD lenses they have been designed by Hasselblad's optical dept and manufactured by Fuji to Hasselblad's specification.
The CFV backs have been manufactured in Sweden for several years now and are marked "Made in Sweden".
I hope this helps.
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Gladly the old owner Shriro, which is most likely responsible for the layoffs and losses, was replaced by a new owner. Who is Ventizz? Have they shown interest in actual long-term investments?
A few more pics from the former Hasselblad production:
http://thomasmayerarchive.de/categories.php?cat_id=2431&l=english
Georg,
I think our perspectives are different considering my history with the company. Shriro invested a great deal in terms of time and resources in Hasselblad which allowed our organization to enter the digital age with the first integrated H1D in 2004, this was followed by the H2D, H3D, H3DII, H4D and .....
Ventizz purchased Hasselblad approx 1 year ago with the plans of growing the company and investing in new technology. I can assure you there is a short term plan (Photokina) and a long term plan.
I appreciate the pictures from the factory, I've been visited this location a number of times over the years.
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Shriro bought Hasselblad after the introduction of the H-System, but during their ownership an entirely new production site was abandoned, the 200/500-series as well and on top of that nearly 80% of the workforce was fired!? I've seen this kind of "investor" much too often :'(
I'm sorry, but the difference in design- and build-quality between my 202FA and a H-system is quite obvious, IMHO. And that the officially Fuji-sourced components are made from the very same plastics - I smell Fuji. am I correct that these parts are also sourced from Fuji or their suppliers? The same can be said about the controls.
I seriously hope that they can increase their workforce again and take a unique position with a mirrorless system.
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Back on-topic:
Assembly of Leica Summilux-C lenses: http://www.fdtimes.com/2012/07/13/how-to-build-leica-summilux-c-lenses/ (http://www.fdtimes.com/2012/07/13/how-to-build-leica-summilux-c-lenses/), already located at the Leitz-Park in Wetzlar, together with Uwe Weller Feinwerktechnik (former mechanics department of Leitz and now again part of Leica Camera):
http://www.maschinewerkzeug.de/imgserver/bdb/105500/105586/792x594.jpg / http://www.scope-online.de/upload_hoppenstedt/8754840_big_728557.jpg - very nice machines from Hermle & Index!