Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: randal21 on May 31, 2012, 10:52:47 am
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I have had the dark print problem from my Epson 7900 that I used to have with my 7800. My monitor is calibrated, I use the right printer paper profiles. I had my printer profiles done .. he said it was more a Mac system/Adobe Epson quirk and had trouble with targeting my samples. So how do I solve it. Getting old. I scan most of the work or use the clients tif's. Help please.
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If your color looks right and matches but everything seems dark then this is more and likely 2 things....or 1 of these 2 things
1) Your monitor is to bright. Your image on paper will never be as bright (IMHO) as it is on screen.
2) When looking at the print your lighting is not bright enough. This is a big one. When I view prints I never view them in my office. My office lighting is pretty average but that is nearly not enough lighting to match what I see on my screen
I ran into this same issue myself and had the same issue across the board. I have printed in Windows and OSX on both HP and Epson printers. They all have the same results.
I have learned to always look at my histogram first before printing, then I evaluate the picture and from my experience I know when a print will appear to be to dark on paper. In cases like this I just bump up the brightness a little. If you have a monitor that is really bright try experimenting with bumping the brightness of your image before printing. I usually bump brightness on some of my images +10-15 and get the results I want.
I truthfully believe that if your colors are right but your prints appear to be too dark it is one of the issues above.
The funny thing here is a smaller print usually will appear to be darker to your eyes than the same exact print done larger.
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Thanks for the reply. My monitor is not too bright (I sold a nice imac that was too bright to be in the brightness range needed). I view the work under 5000k bulbs. I do print out a small proof on 1/2 of an 8.5 x11 sheet. I usually target a section of the original at actual size too to compare. How are you adding the brightness adjustment? I mainly do my color corrections in curves and hue and saturation. thanks.
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If I am in a hurry I just use the brightness/contrast slider. I move brightness to +10-15. When I am not in a hurry I will do some editing using curves to brighten up the image.
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I can't be in a hurry as I am matching a print to a piece of art to be printed. Time doesn't matter as the results are what I am after to please the artists. Time matters to me, plus paper and ink, when I have to keep tweaking it. The monitor matches the artwork ... just the Epson printout that has always been the issue.
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Output a reference image as described in this URL. Does it print too dark?
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/why_are_my_prints_too_dark.shtml
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Just to mention, the 5000K of your bulbs refers to the color of their light, not to their brightness. --Barbara
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I would go with Andrew Rodney's advice.
BTW, when you calibrate your monitor to what brightness in candelas/m2 is the calibration?
The question does not imply that there is a single best setting (there isn't) just that it may help the experts on this site guide you better.
In general the brighter the surroundings that one is editing in the brighter one's monitor needs to be and vica versa.
It would really appear your monitor is still too bright for the surrounds in which you are editing.
Read Andrew's article and then perhaps broaden your research to get a really good handle on this aspect of colour management and printing.
Regards
Tony Jay
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I am reading Andrew Rodney's article on dark prints and had a question. I downloaded the printer test file as suggested and wondered how the color profile effects it. I have Adobe RGB 1998 as my working space and this file is Color Match RGB. When I bring it in and check on assigning a profile I see the print gets darker as I try my working space. What would be the correct way to handle this test print file? It looks so much lighter in their ColorMatch RGB setting.
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I am reading Andrew Rodney's article on dark prints and had a question. I downloaded the printer test file as suggested and wondered how the color profile effects it. I have Adobe RGB 1998 as my working space and this file is Color Match RGB. When I bring it in and check on assigning a profile I see the print gets darker as I try my working space. What would be the correct way to handle this test print file? It looks so much lighter in their ColorMatch RGB setting.
Have Photoshop honor the embedded profile (ColorMatch RGB), then print as usual. You do not want to Assign a profile!
If it looks too light, well there is part of your answers to the too dark print issue!
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The print looks closer with the ColorMatch RGB setting left as is. Does this mean I should change my color space from RGB 1998? Still left alittle in the dark on sorting it out. Thanks for your help. Now what?
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Randl21 - there's been no mention of the other problem that can cause dark prints. What version of Photoshop and OS are you using? There are certain combinations of Ps and Mac OS where prints were dark and had nothing at all to do with monitor brightness or viewing light.
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Randl21 - there's been no mention of the other problem that can cause dark prints. What version of Photoshop and OS are you using? There are certain combinations of Ps and Mac OS where prints were dark and had nothing at all to do with monitor brightness or viewing light.
AND also your epson print driver version...
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First reply was probably on the nail. The monitor is too bright ... for the ambient light in the room.
Place a sheet of white paper near you monitor, lit evenly by the rooms' ambient light. Open an empty Finder window (white) and fill the screen with it. Adjust brightness until it matches the sheet of paper. That is now your white (as far as you eyes are concerned). Leave some white around your images (on screen) when judging for print.
Pay no attention to the numbers (luminance value) except as a guide. Use your eyes.
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The print looks closer with the ColorMatch RGB setting left as is. Does this mean I should change my color space from RGB 1998? Still left alittle in the dark on sorting it out. Thanks for your help. Now what?
No, the reference image in whatever space is simply a reality check. You used it, it didn’t print dark right? IF so, you can ignore all the comments about the print driver, OS etc. You got a good print. And IF it looks kind of light to you, then this again points to the display being the culprit. It is too light, and you darken the images based on what you see incorrectly on-screen, you get a dark print. You can continue to work with any RGB working space. You don’t have to worry that the reference image was in ColorMatch. That reference print is known to print well (not too light or dark) assuming the rest of the print path is sound. This appears to be the case based on this first test. You need to properly calibrate your display.
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Andrew is exactly right.
What you need to do need now is adjust you monitor brightness to match the print.
Regards
Tony Jay
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Thanks guys. I calibrated my monitor (Lacie 324) this morning with a 90 luminance rather than the suggested 120 for LCD. It calibrated within a tight range. As I relook at my print from Digital Dog the print is still darker. When I manually lower my brightness it still is not as dark as the print. So now what? Do I keep lowering the luminance as I recalibrate? I had an imac a few years ago and it was way to bright to get within range so I sold it. I am using Photoshop CS4 and Mac OS 10.5.8 Are there alot of MAc owners out there who print on Epson printers who don't have dark print problems?
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Thanks guys. I calibrated my monitor (Lacie 324) this morning with a 90 luminance rather than the suggested 120 for LCD. It calibrated within a tight range. As I relook at my print from Digital Dog the print is still darker. When I manually lower my brightness it still is not as dark as the print. So now what? Do I keep lowering the luminance as I recalibrate? I had an imac a few years ago and it was way to bright to get within range so I sold it. I am using Photoshop CS4 and Mac OS 10.5.8
I think you need to re-read the URL on Why are my prints too dark. You can and should control and raise the print viewing conditions next to the display. I think you are thinking the print is too dark which may or may not be the case. It sounds like it isn’t. It sounds like there is still a mismatch between display and print. You have two ways to control this! Take the print outside. Is it too dark?
Are there alot of MAc owners out there who print on Epson printers who don't have dark print problems?
A lot of users don’t understand the difference between a truly dark print which is possible and a print that looks darker than the display. The article points out the differences. You can’t fix the problem until you clearly identify the problem.
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Maybe if I added i am trying to match a print to the piece of artwork I am reproducing. At the end is the artist saying my prints are darker than their artwork. It looks okay on the monitor ... matches the art work ...but the final print is tooo dark. I did a final increase from 15-29 increase in brightness and at 29 = matches the screen target. So now do I adjust the image on screen to the art work and add a plus brightness factor to avoid a darker print? thanks.
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Maybe if I added i am trying to match a print to the piece of artwork I am reproducing. At the end is the artist saying my prints are darker than their artwork.
So you’re viewing the print and the original next to each other? Then the display has to also match ideally and you have to view all three in context and calibrate/view the prints with this in mind.
The only difference in the above scenario is you have to view another item (the original art) next to the print and the display. You can get all three to match. But you’ll have to control both sets (prints and display) as described.
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Hi all, my first ever post on this excellent web site.
I used to always get dark prints so i did this....
My room is now a dark room, no light streaming through the window, i use a very heavy curtain to block out the light.
Monitor calibrated with a Colormunki. Bit expensive but its excellent and so easy to use.
Printer. Used to use Epson, moved to Canon. A delight to use, printer head so easy to change if needed but my Epson was ok. Bought my paper from a top company, Permajet, in the UK.
Now the important bit. I was informed there was a problem profiling through later versions of photoshop leading to dark prints. Went on the Adobe web site, downloaded free their Adobe Color Utility.
Got the free A3 colour patches from my paper supplier. Printed the profiles through the utility, not through photoshop. Try to match the closest type of paper to what you use i.e my paper Permajet Oyster is a lustre, a sort of semi gloss so my Canon has in its preferances a semi gloss setting. Ensure you turn off any adjustments in your Epson preferances to no color adjustment when you print the profiles. This is very important.
Sent the profiles of to my paper supplier. E-mailed me the profiles, installed with the touch of a mouse.
Then, went on EBAY. Bought a GRAPHICLITE PDV professional desk top viewer, the D50. This has a light source producing light at 5200 k normal daylight. Cost was very cheap, got it at a steal.
So when i now print, i print through photoshop, using the profile supplied, print first a tiny print, let it dry, view it in my light box, maybe do a very small adjustments and they all come out bang on.
Few, that was difficult. Better finish my bottle of wine and a few beers. Queens diamond jubilee today so any excuse for a few beers. Burp! Long live Liz and Phil. Got an extra day of work.
Mick
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Randal, just checking - are you using 2.2 as your gamma choice when profiling your display not 1.8?
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I am using gamma 2.2. Prints still dark even after a lower lumionance setting and viewing in a lighter area. Monitor matches artwork but print = darker. I beleive it's more to do with the Apple OSX handling of the file as my printer profile target guy said. Would love to solve it as I give enough $ to Epson!
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What rendering intent are you using? Relative colormetric or perceptual? The latter will generally print brighter.
Can you also post the histogram of your image? Is it a bell curve with the hump in the middle of is the hump more on the left?
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Ihave used relative colormetric for years as recommended by alot of photographers. Most of my histogram curves have the hump in the middle. Sometimes not. Then what do you do?
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Did you tell us how brightly you are lighting up the original painting? 5000K only tells us that it will match the color, but it will not tell us whether the brightness will match. What bulb at what wattage and how close it the light source from the painting?
I have a feeling that you are under lighting the painting. dark images on your monitors will tend to print way darker than balanced image on monitors printed.
(Also, try to print using a level adjustment on your image in photoshop, where you change the output level on the dark side by +20. This seems to work well for me for images that come out darker than usual)
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Making some prints without using your custom paper/printer profiles might shed some light. Is there a stock or "canned" profile from the paper manufacturer available for your printer/paper that you can print with and compare? Also, are you able to make a print using the "Printer Manages Colors" (rather than "Photoshop Manages Color") setting, and turning color management on in the color management part of the printer driver? I'm wondering if there is something amiss with the printer/paper profiles you had made.
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I always light the art work I am trying to match. I let Photoshop manage the color and use Epson profiles for the paper I use. Actually, I have not had this customized targets/profiles for this new printer (7900). It was such a hassle trying to zero in on the 7800 targets with someone who finally blamed the non matching to the Apple OSX. I scan most things with my Epson 1000xl and maybe my settings shift the colors? I choose no color correction with my scanner configuration. Even if a hi rez image is provided I still get stinkin DARK PRINTS!
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Thanks guys. I calibrated my monitor (Lacie 324) this morning with a 90 luminance rather than the suggested PSE120 for LCD. It calibrated within a tight range. As I relook at my print from Digital Dog the print is still darker. When I manually lower my brightness it still is not as dark as the print. So now what? Do I keep lowering the luminance as I recalibrate? I had an imac a few years ago and it was way to bright to get within range so I sold it. I am using Photoshop CS4 and Mac OS 10.5.8 Are there alot of MAc owners out there who print on Epson printers who don't have dark print problems?
I know there are some out there who do not like what I am going to say but I too had problems with dark/saturated prints.
There was a combination of OSX 10.5.8 Photoshop 4/PSE4/6 and some Epson print drivers that caused dark/saturated prints. With the OSX 10.5.8 , Epson Drivers and PSE8 I had no problems.
Adobe admitted they had a problem with double coloured management in their latest software because of the changing apple Colorsync environment and recommended letting the printer manage colours instead of photoshop.
It worked. I moved on to Snow Leopard and had no problems.
Try to print using photoshop option printer manages colours as Benmar suggested and see what the results are. (it may not be easy for force the right printer profile instead of epson's default profiles. but it is possible.
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"There was a combination of OSX 10.5.8 Photoshop 4/PSE4/6 and some Epson print drivers that caused dark/saturated prints. With the OSX 10.5.8 , Epson Drivers and PSE8 I had no problems.
Adobe admitted they had a problem with double coloured management in their latest software because of the changing apple Colorsync environment and recommended letting the printer manage colours instead of photoshop.
It worked. I moved on to Snow Leopard and had no problems.
Try to print using photoshop option printer manages colours as Benmar suggested and see what the results are. (it may not be easy for force the right printer profile instead of epson's default profiles. but it is possible."
I think you are on to the real root of the problem. I did this a long time ago with my 7800. I just printed a piece I am proofing and still dark with some color shift. Maybe making the Snow Leopard jump and updating plugins is the answer. Appreciate it. May also try printing out of CS5 to see if it changes.