Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: eronald on May 10, 2012, 03:44:37 pm
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Leica has announced an H lens adapter which preserves autofocus, diaphragm, and leaf shutter use on the S2!
http://blog.uniquephoto.com/?p=9502
Edmund
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Holy moly! In a stroke, the S2 just got all those "central shutter" lenses that Leica had been promising - and more!
Could this be the answer to the "What's Hasselblad been up to?" thread we had recently? Leica may have collaborated with them to develop this. The alternative would be that it's an impressive piece of reverse engineering on Leica's part.
Ray
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Great idea …
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Surprising... a smart move from MF stakeholders??? ;D
Making versions of the S lenses available in F mount would be another genius act, but I fear this may be expecting too much.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I think this is absolutely amazing. I originally had a Hasselblad H3Dii-39ms and it was a good camera to learn medium format with but I outgrew it and didn't like the ergonomics of it the way I did my Mamiya 645AFD. Which is why I switched to Phase. But Hasselblad makes some absolutely amazing lenses, my favorites were the 120mm macro, 100mm 2.2, 35-90mm, and 300mm. When I looked at cameras to switch to from my Hasselblad, I looked at the S2, but with my trade in I could get 80mp from P1 (which I already had all the lenses for) for the same price as 37mp from Leica. I loved the S but the P1 won on simple math.
I think its absolutely amazing that they came out with an autofocus adapter!! I had often day-dreamed thinking about having an adapter like this for the Hasselblad lenses to any other system, but knew there weren't any adapters that had the electronic contacts etc. I think this is a huge step for Leica expanding their lens range hugely. I may have to take an S2 home with me now and pick up some H lenses!
I don't know if Hasselblad helped with this...I can only see it taking business away from them, and will be shocked if they helped with this adapter personally...
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I don't know if Hasselblad helped with this...I can only see it taking business away from them, and will be shocked if they helped with this adapter personally...
Could it be that there is more profit in the lenses for Hasselblad? It seems a tad unlikely that Leitz could have reverse-engineered all that compatibility goodness by themselves …
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Could it be that there is more profit in the lenses for Hasselblad? It seems a tad unlikely that Leitz could have reverse-engineered all that compatibility goodness by themselves …
My facetious answer is "Its Leica, they can do anything". That would be surprising to me because (please someone correct me if I am wrong) aren't the lenses made by Fuji? and I don't think there is any owner-ship relation between Hasselblad and Fuji (again correct me if I am wrong).
But that is a very good point and would explain why this exists, but I'm sure some others more well versed in Hasselblad might be able to give us some better insight into the answer to this question.
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What Leica does best is design lenses, they have superb S lenses which owuld be beautiful on H or P or even N and C, but instead they just make bodies ...
Edmund
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What Leica does best is design lenses, they have superb S lenses which owuld be beautiful on H or P or even N and C, but instead they just make bodies ...
Edmund
Well if they have engineered an adapter to let their cameras take H lenses. I would almost be willing to bet we see some Leica autofocus S lenses with a Hasselblad mount real soon. It seems like if you invest the R&D time into something like this..why wouldn't you just add a new mount to production, if you have the electronics down....very interesting since Hasselblad has been aligned with Zeiss for so long....times are changing!
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My facetious answer is "Its Leica, they can do anything". That would be surprising to me because (please someone correct me if I am wrong) aren't the lenses made by Fuji? and I don't think there is any owner-ship relation between Hasselblad and Fuji (again correct me if I am wrong).
AFAIK, Fujifilm makes the lenses, but under contract to Hasselblad (which also contributes to their design?) and sold under the Hasselblad brand, so I think that Hasselblad gets to mark them up and make a profit. Like Apple makes a profit on those devices that are manufactured by Foxconn.
But it is a bit puzzling that Leica is doing this while still not delivering numerous lenses of its own promissed for the S system. It is the opposite of what I was thinking again earlier today: that it would be nice for Leica to expand into making lenses for cameras from other makers --- ones with the ability to build a camera around a state-of-the-art sensor and Live View manual focusing system.
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it would be nice for Leica to expand into making lenses for cameras from other makers --- ones with the ability to build a camera around a state-of-the-art sensor and Live View manual focusing system.
Considering the number of Nikon users currently trying to buy Leica R lenses... I bet that some of those S lenses would indeed be a major hit in F mount.
I am personally in love with the Leitax mount Leica R 180 f2.8 APO on the D800, although its color rendition is a bit on the cool side compared to the other lenses in my line up, be it Nikon or Zeiss.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Sigma and Tamron make a good living out of compatible lenses, Zeiss does too, but the company with arguably the best optics in the 35mm arena, Leica, turns them into collector items and doorstops.
Edmund
AFAIK, Fujifilm makes the lenses, but under contract to Hasselblad (which also contributes to their design?) and sold under the Hasselblad brand, so I think that Hasselblad gets to mark them up and make a profit. Like Apple makes a profit on those devices that are manufactured by Foxconn.
But it is a bit puzzling that Leica is doing this while still not delivering numerous lenses of its own promissed for the S system. It is the opposite of what I was thinking again earlier today: that it would be nice for Leica to expand into making lenses for cameras from other makers --- ones with the ability to build a camera around a state-of-the-art sensor and Live View manual focusing system.
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Sigma and Tamron make a good living out of compatible lenses, Zeiss does too, but the company with arguably the best optics in the 35mm arena, Leica, turns them into collector items and doorstops.
It could be that they consider themselves as a camera company while most of the world around them sees them as a lens company. ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
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I would love to see Leica do a Rollei 6000 series adapter.
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Well if they have engineered an adapter to let their cameras take H lenses. I would almost be willing to bet we see some Leica autofocus S lenses with a Hasselblad mount real soon. It seems like if you invest the R&D time into something like this..why wouldn't you just add a new mount to production, if you have the electronics down....
To do that requires more than an adapter though - to get S lenses to focus to infinity on a H body, they would have to be redesigned with shorter barrels. It might not be possible - there might be mechanical clearance issues, depending on how far back the rear glass elements reach, etc.
It used be that the M645, and more recently the C645, were the "universal bodies" for medium format - of all the SLRs, they had the shortest flange distances, so they could in theory adapt all the other systems' lenses.
Now that baton has passed to the Leica S2...it comfortably adapts the M645 lenses. I wonder will Leica also come up with an adapter which operates the AF and aperture of the Mamiya/Phase 645AF lenses?
Ray
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… aren't the lenses made by Fuji?
And that would restrict Hasselblad how? As far as I am aware, Fuji is permitted under its contract with Hasselblad to sell what they make (self-branded) in Japan, with the Swedish mob having the rights everywhere else (cf. Xpan).
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I guess this is collaboration, not reverse engineering? One thing I like with the MF systems is that they are less closed than the 135 digital systems where locking in customers and making things hard for third party developers is standard.
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And that would restrict Hasselblad how? As far as I am aware, Fuji is permitted under its contract with Hasselblad to sell what they make (self-branded) in Japan, with the Swedish mob having the rights everywhere else (cf. Xpan).
I was assuming you make less if you have to more companies involved. but it was late at night ;) you may be right.
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To do that requires more than an adapter though - to get S lenses to focus to infinity on a H body, they would have to be redesigned with shorter barrels. It might not be possible - there might be mechanical clearance issues, depending on how far back the rear glass elements reach, etc.
It used be that the M645, and more recently the C645, were the "universal bodies" for medium format - of all the SLRs, they had the shortest flange distances, so they could in theory adapt all the other systems' lenses.
Now that baton has passed to the Leica S2...it comfortably adapts the M645 lenses. I wonder will Leica also come up with an adapter which operates the AF and aperture of the Mamiya/Phase 645AF lenses?
Ray
Thats a very good point. It would be interesting to see Mamiya/Phase glass on the S2 with electronic connection. In this case I think it would be more because of the ability for people to switch over without getting new lenses, since as good as Mamiya and Phase lenses can be, I think overall Hasselblad, but especially Leica have them beat. There are some great M645 lenses out there, 80mm 1.9N, 150mm 2.8N though....
Also to Carl's point I had that exact thought as well. The Rollei 6008 def has some solid lenses and its amazing they have autofocus as well except they are very restricted in cameras you can use them on. Personally, I appreciate autofocus.
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I guess this is collaboration, not reverse engineering? One thing I like with the MF systems is that they are less closed than the 135 digital systems where locking in customers and making things hard for third party developers is standard.
According to Leica executives the adaptor was independantly developed with no involvement by Hasselblad.
Michael
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To do that requires more than an adapter though - to get S lenses to focus to infinity on a H body, they would have to be redesigned with shorter barrels. It might not be possible - there might be mechanical clearance issues, depending on how far back the rear glass elements reach, etc.
It used be that the M645, and more recently the C645, were the "universal bodies" for medium format - of all the SLRs, they had the shortest flange distances, so they could in theory adapt all the other systems' lenses.
Now that baton has passed to the Leica S2...it comfortably adapts the M645 lenses. I wonder will Leica also come up with an adapter which operates the AF and aperture of the Mamiya/Phase 645AF lenses?
Things have changed considerably since the M645 days; the tail now wags the dog when it comes to quality and cost (that is the digital sensor is the major investment).
Notably though the S2 cannot be used on a tech camera or on a view camera with any wide lenses. Only digital backs can, which adds another dozen or so (relevant) lenses in the compatibility list to M645 or C645 systems.
Still, the S2 being able to use Hasselblad lenses is great news for S2 users. More lens choices are a good thing!
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Hi Michael
we have done the same thing with our Canon reengineering on the HCam, Conurus did the same thing on the EOS to Sony nex adapter and there is more to come.
Of course this is not easy and a lot of work but actually the electronics side of costs is more easy to control than making completely new lenses.
I think adapters are the technology of the future, opening other systems and deliver added value to the users. Typically they come from 3rd party makers. The unusual thing is
that Leica did this step as a camera and lens maker. This proves they are fighting to catch up with demand of their lenses and cameras, whereas this decision is now giving them a bit headroom for making more bodies and grasp more market share.
I think it is very clever, using the somewhat limited (compared to Elephants like Nikon and Canon) resources of a Leica sized operation to achieve best market representation.
Whoever made this decision is tactical and logical. Very good ! That makes me believe in a strong future for this brand.
Greetings from Germany
Stefan
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we have done the same thing with our Canon reengineering on the HCam, Conurus did the same thing on the EOS to Sony nex adapter and there is more to come.
Both the HCam and Conurus Smart Adapter (EOS > Sony) are manual focus only and are for lenses without leaf shutters. Both are great accomplishments and should be acknowledged as such.
But Michael's point in saying that this is a "first" was specific to the fact the adapter maintains/translates Autofocus. Which, I am also unaware of anyone else doing before this. Assuming broad real-world use shows that it all works as advertised (and does so reliably) it should be considered IMO quite an accomplishment.
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Doug
we could use the autofocus if our body would have any peripherals to measure distance. We read the full protocoll of the Canon lenses but as the most used with HCam
are manual focus (TS-E) it does not make much sense at all for us. But we are able to drive Canon focusmotors if we wanted to do this.
Conurus is also a very small operation,I think at Leica they have put definitely more effort (money) into this than we did.
As I said, clever move and also very strategic thinking. Bit of Sun Tzu I would say. I´m proud there are some balls left in german Photoindustry ! :)
Regards
Stefan
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so what will happen?
S owners run out and buy H lenses?
I doubt H lens owners will run out to buy S bodies
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so what will happen?
S owners run out and buy H lenses?
Yes, I'm sure some will.
I doubt H lens owners will run out to buy S bodies
Probably not. They have an equally good, near-twin sensor in the H4D-40.
Ray
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Of course if Michael says according to Leica the adapter was independantly developed with no involvement by Hasselblad, I believe him, but doesn't this infringe copyrights? Is Hasselblad not the rightful owner of the lens protocol? No legal issues coming out of this? The adapter is prized around ~ $2000. As a buyer I'd like to know for sure this stunt that Leica pulled is 'future proof'. What if Hasselblad considers this a hostile act?
I know Sigma and Tamron et all have been doing this for ages, but ...
One other thing is the central shutter, Leica has been working on this for 4 years, couldn't make it work until some prototypes showed up early this year. Now Leica says they finally got it right this time around, and even better (1/1000 instead of 1/500) than initially promised. When first reading about the adapter, my guess was Leica made a deal with Hasselblad. Share knowledge about making central shutters, open up the S system for H lenses.
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Of course if Michael says according to Leica the adapter was independantly developed with no involvement by Hasselblad, I believe him, but doesn't this infringe copyrights? Is Hasselblad not the rightful owner of the lens protocol? No legal issues coming out of this? The adapter is prized around ~ $2000. As a buyer I'd like to know for sure this stunt that Leica pulled is 'future proof'. What if Hasselblad considers this a hostile act?
I know Sigma and Tamron et all have been doing this for ages, but ...
One other thing is the central shutter, Leica has been working on this for 4 years, couldn't make it work until some prototypes showed up early this year. Now Leica says they finally got it right this time around, and even better (1/1000 instead of 1/500) than initially promised. When first reading about the adapter, my guess was Leica made a deal with Hasselblad. Share knowledge about making central shutters, open up the S system for H lenses.
I'm sure Leica explored the legal angle before endeavoring on the R&D of the adapter. I second Michael's statement - I was also told by the S product manager that Leica developed this independently.
As far as the CS lenses go, I've already used them back in October and they worked fine at 1/500th. Obviously, Leica wanted to make more of a statement by tweaking and seeing how fast they could make the shutter while still maintaining longevity (100,000 actuations). They also have to retest everything at the higher 1/1000th shutter speeds for shutter life before publishing the spec.
Oh, and, no Hasselblad didn't consult on central shutters. I also don't think they're that excited about giving up body sales in exchange for an increase in lens sales.
David
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If any of you would like to tryout the Leica S2 and the H adapter or the S lenses.
I can arrange for some free one to one demonstrations in the Mayfair store.
just send me an e-mail [email protected]
Sorry for the shameless plug but it's a camera that has a lot of people talking about it and very few people who have ever experienced it.
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Will the adapter work on an S3. :)
Mark
www.marktomalty.com