Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: mcpix on April 21, 2012, 10:52:05 am
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I own a photo/video lab that I've had for many years. I got into large format printing about 6 years ago and I really enjoy making big prints.
Most of my customers are amateur photographers who bring in 1 or 2 images for their own personal use. I have a couple of customers who make prints for resale, but they tend to struggle to sell their prints.
Virtually all my orders are small (1 or 2 prints) and so my workflow can be erratic. Some work one week, not much the next. Most of my work is printed on Epson Luster, but I also do canvas, vinyl and some art papers.
I often read on this forum of members who are processing very large print orders and I was wondering what type of customer generates this type of business? Is it art reproduction? Wholesale work for another lab/frame shop? Groupon ad customers?
Thanks in advance for sharing.
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I run a small print business and find most of the work is from artists and professional photographers on-selling with high quality canvas/art and photo prints. They appreciate the quality and clarity of the prints I make and are prepared to pay for that quality. I would never consider groupon advertising as the margins would be low compared to the high labour input I put into each photo. This has worked for me.
Neal
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Display graphics - large backlit (transparent) prints look great and are eye-catching in window displays, indoor signage, corporate interior decoration, museum display, etc. It might not be high volume per image, but I'd bet that the advertiser would pay well for an excellent photo-sign.
Do you know any interior decorators?
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I've thought of printing for artists, and I feel I have the experience to give them the quality they want. I'm just afraid that they may want a level of perfection that is difficult (if not impossible) to achieve.
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I've thought of printing for artists, and I feel I have the experience to give them the quality they want. I'm just afraid that they may want a level of perfection that is difficult (if not impossible) to achieve.
I do agree. Nobody could do my printing because I would be very picky, and a mistake by me isn't quite the same as a mistake by someone else! LOL But I did do some printing for some fellow photographers and they were all quite pleased. I'm not sure what the labs are spitting out, but perhaps its not as good. Price is the killer though. A really good printer will charge roughly $10 a square foot, which isn't cheap. I was charging 6 cents a square inch. So a 16x20 was roughly $20. It didn't take long for the guy I was printing for to go out and buy an Epson 3880. You'd be crazy charging less though cause reprints you gotta cover yourself or any other problems. So if all you're gonna do is double or triple your cost, you're gonna be broke soon. But then nobody wants to pay $20 or more for one single print, especially if they have dozens to do since a new printer might not be that much more. So I'm not sure what I'm saying.. just sharing my experience! LOL
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Kiran, I think charging 6 cents a sq/inch is very low and would make earning even a modest profit difficult. Perhaps you posted the wrong numbers but the price per sq/inch you say a really good printer charges is only one cent more than your charges, still very low in my opinion. In doing quantity prints, $20 for a 16x20 is not a bad price but if you charge that little for the first hard to achieve good looking print than you would be working at sub minimum wage. I totally disagree with you about this comment, "But then nobody wants to pay $20 or more for one single print" I don't believe that to be the case at all.
Good quality paper costs a lot as do the inks and the printer itself which all must be figured into the price of a print. The experience of a really good printer is also valuable. I consider myself to be a good printer with over 30 years of experience and thousands of printed images under my belt. I don't know if the quality of the prints I make exceed the quality of yours or the labs you mention but I certainly hope they do because I do charge much more than you. I also believe I'm charging less than most high quality professional labs so I know my pricing is not excessive.
Peter
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So if all you're gonna do is double or triple your cost, you're gonna be broke soon. But then nobody wants to pay $20 or more for one single print, especially if they have dozens to do since a new printer might not be that much more. So I'm not sure what I'm saying.. just sharing my experience! LOL
So how much do you think it should be charged if triple the cost is not enough. Maybe the way you calculate your cost is not proper?
Cost is not just the paper and ink, it is also your time, your printer, rents, taxes etc. If you count all that triple the cost is a way too much to charge for print!
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I charge approx USD$40 psf. reason is in my experience, workmanship, time, etc, all rolled into one.
I have extremely low tolerence to print defects and I print with so much passion it's almost an obsession with perfection.
Compared to what I charge for time when I was a photographer, it's cheap.
It all depends on where on the pyramid you wanna position yourself. The top, the middle, or the bottom, focusing on quality, compromise, or economics respectively.
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Kiran, I think charging 6 cents a sq/inch is very low and would make earning even a modest profit difficult. P
No.. this is correct. I'm not running a business in printing and this was simply the price quoted to friends of friends. Although I do agree its lower than what is commercially available, it was a number I came up with that I was comfortable with. Its good to keep my printer going and hence it gave me an excuse to print which is good. My paper is somewhat cheap, just standard Canon or Epson satin. I fully understand that if I was running an actual printing business this wouldn't be enough, but this is a number I am happy to quote for anyone in my circles that asks.
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I own a photo/video lab that I've had for many years. I got into large format printing about 6 years ago and I really enjoy making big prints.
Most of my customers are amateur photographers who bring in 1 or 2 images for their own personal use. I have a couple of customers who make prints for resale, but they tend to struggle to sell their prints.
Virtually all my orders are small (1 or 2 prints) and so my workflow can be erratic. Some work one week, not much the next. Most of my work is printed on Epson Luster, but I also do canvas, vinyl and some art papers.
I often read on this forum of members who are processing very large print orders and I was wondering what type of customer generates this type of business? Is it art reproduction? Wholesale work for another lab/frame shop? Groupon ad customers?
Thanks in advance for sharing.
Sorry for the hijack, .... now back to your topic. ;-)
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You can compete on price or quality. If you are not able to produce top quality you have to compete on price.
In this case your clientele will be starving artists.
Be prepared to offer other services such as scanning and retouching.
The main obstacle is not whether you have a nice printer and could make good quality prints but do you have a potentially profitable sales and marketing plan?
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I've thought of printing for artists, and I feel I have the experience to give them the quality they want. I'm just afraid that they may want a level of perfection that is difficult (if not impossible) to achieve.
If you start with a great image you will have a great print. Are you able to capture their work into great images?
A top quality image will print bad only if you are really lousy. A difference will be that you will need to include proof prints costs as they will need to be approved before you make the final prints.
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I charge approx USD$40 psf. reason is in my experience, workmanship, time, etc, all rolled into one.
I have extremely low tolerence to print defects and I print with so much passion it's almost an obsession with perfection.
Compared to what I charge for time when I was a photographer, it's cheap.
It all depends on where on the pyramid you wanna position yourself. The top, the middle, or the bottom, focusing on quality, compromise, or economics respectively.
Sorry what is psf?
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Sorry what is psf?
Damir
psf = per square foot
ie the price for a 24 inch by 36 inch print (eg 2 feet by 3 feet = 6 square feet) would be six times the psf price, hence for Fetish's $40 psf price such a print would cost $240.
Nigel
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I appreciate all the great feedback in this thread. However, sometimes I feel that there must be two parallel universes. One, where people acknowledge good quality work and will gladly pay for it, and the other is the one I live in. I have many people who come to me, because they know I'll make their photos look great. The problem always comes when I try to charge for my experience. Most of the people I deal with are extremely price sensitive, and I wouldn't even have the business I currently do if I tried to charge some of the prices previously discussed.
Is it a matter of market size? Are the higher priced printer jobs in larger cities? Is it the type of retail location?
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As you sad: I have a couple of customers who make prints for resale, but they tend to struggle to sell their prints.
If they struggle to sell they must be sensitive to price.
On the other side question is how much experience worth in term of money - probably a lot if you are the only one who is experienced in your area, on the other side probably not much if you are surrounded by other experienced printers.
I have experienced printer in my area who is also expensive one but for recent exhibition (not mine) I was asked to made some prints, as he was busy, so in the same gallery there was his prints and my prints of similar pictures. Everyone who saw exhibition agree that my prints are the better than the prints he made. He is excellent, but he is printer, I am photographer who mostly print for myself, only some times I print for my fellows photographers, I do not do commercial printing. I also print with passion, I also have zero tolerance for print defects, but I am not considered myself as expert printer.
The other guy, as some other experienced printers I know, do a lot of talking about calibration, ink limits, linearization, profiles and so on. They have perfect mathematics of printing. On the other side I just use my Z3100 without too much consideration about such problems, let the printer do his job. But when I had my exhibition I tried almost 15 different papers before I decide which one suits best for the pictures I was printing. Also for example mentioned above. I choose different kind of paper than he did, because I feel that it will better suit to the pictures that I was printing. It seems to me that my experience as a photographer-printer combination is much more valuable then their experience as graphic designer-printer combination. They always can out talk me with their technical talks, they have so many technical gadgets, they use complicated techniques and expensive RIP software, but at the end they can not feel the soul of the picture and give to the picture what it need to be presented in a way that people who visit the gallery stayed amazed by the picture.
At the exhibition I mentioned I was fascinated how different visitors react to the different kind of printing. Pictures are very similar, same subjects, same lighting, same shooting technique. Visitors come in the front of his prints, say "nice" and continue. When they came in front of my prints they stayed there, discus the photo, talk about shooting technique that photographer use, talk about lighting that photographer use. At the end they spent much more time in front of prints I made and always ask for the price. Most of the prints I made was sold, but none of the other printer.
It is strange, he use better more expensive paper, he have much more experience in printing, better equipment, better calibration and so on. So there are different kind of experiences which reflects differently on final product.
At the end you can charge what you feel you need to charge, as long as there is someone who want to pay for it fine. But I have the feeling that to many printers are lost in the lend of numbers and charts, and that they can not find the way out of that. I can not remember where on this forum I red a comment which goes something like: "I first check which version of software printer use if he do not use latest version of Photoshop I look for another one." I was amazed with such comment, btw. I am still using Photoshop SC3, it was perfect 3 years ago and it is still perfect now.
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The other guy, as some other experienced printers I know, do a lot of talking about calibration, ink limits, linearization, profiles and so on. They have perfect mathematics of printing. On the other side I just use my Z3100 without too much consideration about such problems, let the printer do his job. But when I had my exhibition I tried almost 15 different papers before I decide which one suits best for the pictures I was printing. Also for example mentioned above. I choose different kind of paper than he did, because I feel that it will better suit to the pictures that I was printing. It seems to me that my experience as a photographer-printer combination is much more valuable then their experience as graphic designer-printer combination. They always can out talk me with their technical talks, they have so many technical gadgets, they use complicated techniques and expensive RIP software, but at the end they can not feel the soul of the picture and give to the picture what it need to be presented in a way that people who visit the gallery stayed amazed by the picture.
That´s the key for this business. You´re already an expert printmaker if you undestood that. Great comments.
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One thing I have thought about is offering a wider selection of photo papers. The majority of my photo printing is on Epson Premium Luster. Although it works great for photos, it's also what all the other labs (including the 4 Walgreens) are using.
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I tried to use papers from Mitsubishi, Canon, HP, Hahnemuhle, sometimes hand coated paper with InkAid if I need something special. Around 25 different papers. I print mostly on 5 - 6 surfaces, but always have samples of different papers on hand. That's why just adore my Z, it is so simple to calibrate everything what I put inside the printer.
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I often see threads about different papers to use for different purposes. I was wondering though, if you had to pick 3 or 4 different papers to offer your customers, which ones would you choose?
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I appreciate all the great feedback in this thread. However, sometimes I feel that there must be two parallel universes. One, where people acknowledge good quality work and will gladly pay for it, and the other is the one I live in. I have many people who come to me, because they know I'll make their photos look great. The problem always comes when I try to charge for my experience. Most of the people I deal with are extremely price sensitive, and I wouldn't even have the business I currently do if I tried to charge some of the prices previously discussed.
Is it a matter of market size? Are the higher priced printer jobs in larger cities? Is it the type of retail location?
Let your work speak for itself. The minute you start cutting deals, you start attracting that kind of clientele.
If you price your work properly, it would reflect the labour cost and the materials, and you need to earn a profit.
I let the price sensitive people walk away. I have no interest in doing deals because they think they can't afford it. People who want quality will pay for it.
You might check out your local chamber of commerce and see if they have any courses on sales and marketing.
Don't feel bad saying no. Someone who comes to you and talks about Walgreens or Walmart or whoever produces cheaply priced photos, is not a customer you want to have.
Just my two cents worth. You're a professional. You produce professional quality products, and although it is a labour of love, at the end of the day, you have to keep a roof over your head and food in your belly. Insist on charging a fair price. Fair to YOU.
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I am not printing in a way that someone can come to my shop from the street. I am photographer therefore I primary print for myself. After some time my fellow photographers noticed my prints and started to ask me to print for them. For my work I know exactly how I want them to look like, I choose paper from experience if I am not completely sure I try several different surfaces. I explain that to everyone who want me to print so the time and paper for making experiments are included in price. If at the end they start to complicate I just send them away to print shop and never again work with them. Like you wrote in last reply - don't feel bad to say no.
If you ask for recipe you will not get it anywhere it is a matter of experience and vision. I hate plastic papers, even in the age of darkroom I was producing my own papers by hand coating artistic papers with black and white emulsion. But sometimes such papers suit the work therefore I always consider them too. I feel that today to many pictures are printed with to strong colors. Colors are screaming from pictures. Of course there are some pictures that need that like my experiments with black light:
http://fot-o-grafiti.hr/slike/savjeti/_uv/torso.jpg
http://fot-o-grafiti.hr/slike/savjeti/_uv/spageti.jpg
I am finally able to print it the way I like with HM FineArt Baryta and HP Z3100 who have blue ink and give me great prints, but this picture also looks great on RC papers. Matt papers are subduing the picture which is not my intention at the moment I made photos.
On the other hand my latest exhibition "The birth of an angel" was printed on HM Bamboo:
http://fot-o-grafiti.hr/novosti/foto-doga%C4%91anja/damir-tiljak-ra%C4%91anje-an%C4%91ela
There are some pictorial scenes, like foggy landscapes, that just looks perfect on fine art matte papers I got great results with HP Matte Litho Realistic for most of such works, also for most of the black and white photos, but for my "Angel" series I liked even more yellow base and textured surface of Bamboo.
Generally if you have a lot of fine details avoid strong texture, but I like canvas for portraits on which hair is not important, it is perfect. It is possible to get some sort of texture in skin that will kill blemishes or hide to strong retouching, of course fine details in the hair will be lost, but this can hide low resolution of the camera, as the hair area needs the highest resolution on picture:
http://fot-o-grafiti.hr/nauci/ispis-print/teku%C4%87-laminacija
After all this is just my preferences, someone else can have different approach.
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I print large format so called fine art prints with a nod to archival qualities because it's my own work and I want control.
Fussy about materials has got me attention from other photographers/artists who want me to print for them.
WHY?
None of them want to take on colour management, highish computer and software tools and a bloody great heavy printer that needs expensive materials.
They just want to photo/paint.
This means I have to pass on my cost. If they don't want to pay thats not a problem as then I don't print. Be careful of Uncle Bob, you know the guy with a desk top printer that will do it for nothing as he's a mate.
Thats not you is it?? No only joking. But you get my point. I want my car fixed and a mechanic I know will advise me but it is his job so I would not dream of under paying.
People don't value our prints if we don't.
I am not interested in chasing volume work but here in the UK I would have to market myself with an ambulance chasers work ethic to do this.
Best of luck.
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I am finally able to print it the way I like with HM FineArt Baryta and HP Z3100 who have blue ink and give me great prints, but this picture also looks great on RC papers. Matt papers are subduing the picture which is not my intention at the moment I made photos.
On the other hand my latest exhibition "The birth of an angel" was printed on HM Bamboo:
http://fot-o-grafiti.hr/novosti/foto-doga%C4%91anja/damir-tiljak-ra%C4%91anje-an%C4%91ela
Some very stirring work here, Damir. Beautiful. I've not tried the HFA Bamboo paper and have no clue what it resembles.
John Caldwell
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Bamboo is my number one for matte art prints and B&W if a slightly off white paper is OK for the subject.
It's never failed me and is easy to work with.
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As someone who occasionally prints for others, I'd very much agree with those who say that it is your skill and expertise that you are selling, not just the fact that you have a big printer in the room next door to your office.
If people choose you just on price, then you are getting customers that are not so interested in the skills and experience you bring to the print. Much as with my commercial photography, if a potential client asks the price too many times at the start, I'm inclined to take it as a warning.
Printmaking is a service that I don't currently advertise on our web site, since first and foremost I'm a commercial photographer, not a printer. Where I do print work, I like to physically see and get to know the people wanting prints, both to discuss what it is that they want, and that tricky issue, of whether their image is up to the quality required for a big print - something less likely IMHO with someone primarily worried about the price ;-)
However... my wife Karen has just started working for the company as Marketing Director, and I think she's looking at the big printer and wondering why it's not making a bigger contribution to the bottom line ;-) My own large prints are very much a personal thing, so sometimes you do need someone with a bit more of a business eye, and not involved with your 'art'.
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While some here may decry the approach, I print for a few local studios and photographers. Their work contributes significantly to profitability, allowing me to pursue my imagemaking.
The prices I charge are well below what most are discussing here, consistent with WHCC, H&H and a few other providers.
The main advantage I offer my customers is that I'm local, have a personalized approach and will tailor output to suit that photographer (or studios) "image" and can offer rush service if needed (at significantly higher cost). Maybe I live more modestly than most, but I can live with 70% gross margin, I mean really folks, most retail shops exist quite comfortably at or around 50%.
It must be working, in the approximately 3 months since I've acquired the printer, the printer has paid for itself.