Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: sid_v on February 08, 2012, 10:07:54 pm
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...is it comparable to phases' image file?
I'm talking mainly about the resolving power of the sensor sans the AA filter like the digital backs. The sample files look quite good. Also, how many of you who shoot clothes/fashion, see moire with the new hi-res digital backs?
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Did see little moire a few times in 3 years with the Aptus 7. Never seen moire in a year with the Aptus 12. I shoot a hell of a lot of clothes and bags.
As resolution goes up the moire goes down. In the old days with the DCS420 moire was the order of the day. If I was buying the new Nikon I think I would go for the model without the AA filter. I don't think there is much chance of a moire with 36 MP.
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Hi,
What aperture are you shooting at? Beyond f/11 you would probably see much less Moiré due to diffraction.
Best regards
Erik
Did see little moire a few times in 3 years with the Aptus 7. Never seen moire in a year with the Aptus 12. I shoot a hell of a lot of clothes and bags.
As resolution goes up the moire goes down. In the old days with the DCS420 moire was the order of the day. If I was buying the new Nikon I think I would go for the model without the AA filter. I don't think there is much chance of a moire with 36 MP.
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how many of you who shoot clothes/fashion, see moire with the new hi-res digital backs?
Not just clothes, I see moire with a Phase One P65+ and also with a Leica M9 in all sorts of places, chain link fences, motor car grilles, distant roof tiles etc.
But although moire's never welcome, the software tools that are available can do a pretty good job of fixing it.
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But although moire's never welcome, the software tools that are available can do a pretty good job of fixing it.
It seems to be a battle between software tools: OLPF and sharpening vs no-OLPF and moiré removal.
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From reading Nikon's literature it seems to me that they are more concerned about "color aliasing" or the Christmas tree light effect.
I have had moire on every digital camera I have used, depending on the subject. My original 1Ds was terrible on clothing, where as
the 1Ds MKII seemed much better. I assume that Canon adjusted the filter. I read in the press release where in Nikon's Capture
software there will be a software filter or something to help counter the effect of color aliasing.
My P45+ occasionally shows moire on roof patterns, but it never seems to be that harsh, where as color aliasing can be very harsh at
times depending on the light. With addition of tech camera glass color aliasing is even worse now, but the extra detail to me is worth
the trade off.
Nikon to me has really taken a serious lead in technology. Where Canon took off with the 1ds in 2003, Nikon has caught up in spades.
Coming up with e model was a brilliant decision, something that Canon should have done with the 1ds MKIII two years ago. (At least IMO)
Over 3 years ago, MaxMax was showing the benefits of no AA filter on the original 5D.
Paul
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Looking at the D800e sample files on the Nikon website (specifically, the two forest pics), I see a lot of mushy areas lacking detail and also (in the case of the forest/mountain pic) blown out highlights. Pixel-peeping the files next to my P45+ shots with EMS ("Equivalent Mountain Scenery"), these samples just look awful. As much as I'd like to save half the weight and two-thirds of the cost of my current gear, I don't think it's time to quit MFD just yet. For me, that is.
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Blown highlights do look disturbing, but I suspect that they are result of an incorrect shooting technique. Based on high ISO samples it seems that D800(E) sensor should have plenty of data in the shadows. Sample images were likely captured without keeping that in mind with blunt overexposure in some.
Nikon should reconsider such sample images as clearly they are playing against them:)
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Nikon should reconsider such sample images as clearly they are playing against them:)
Thats what i thought...sample files are very basic, and the well known guys have shot with the d800 mainly.
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Looking at the D800e sample files on the Nikon website (specifically, the two forest pics), I see a lot of mushy areas lacking detail and also (in the case of the forest/mountain pic) blown out highlights. Pixel-peeping the files next to my P45+ shots with EMS ("Equivalent Mountain Scenery"), these samples just look awful. As much as I'd like to save half the weight and two-thirds of the cost of my current gear, I don't think it's time to quit MFD just yet. For me, that is.
Blown out highlights are the result of overexposure. Many Phase One cameras grossly underexpose and so have a lot of "highlight headroom" at the expense of reduced dynamic range. The P45+ is an exception and base ISO (50) and ISO 100 are at nominal and higher ISOs are metadata values. By way of contrast, the P65+ underexposes by one stop at ISOs above 50 as shown by DXO measurements. Since most digital sensors are linear over nearly all their range and clip at or near full well, highlight headroom is determined by exposure and not some magical quality of the sensor. It might be better to wait until properly exposed and processed images are available before coming to conclusions.
Regards,
Bill
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Here is a much better sample and review of a d800e file:
http://photolegacy.wordpress.com/2012/02/09/163/
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I am indeed afraid that the gentlemen who was asked to shoot these landscape samples was not too familiar with the way digital cameras have to be exposed...
They really should ask me next time. ;D
I'd transform the 50MP D900 into a 500 MP stitching camera!
cheers,
Bernard
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This better exposed image illustrates DR of D800E:
(http://dpnow.com/galleries/data/733/medium/P2170056b.jpg)
(source: http://dpnow.com/8519.html)
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This better exposed image illustrates DR of D800E:
(source: http://dpnow.com/8519.html)
I am not sure this was shot with a 800E, it is just mentioned as one example of moire.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Hi,
Foremost it is a bad illustraton of the effects of bad downsampling. The image is obviously little cropped which is obvious from the Rayspective we see. Downsizing an image causes aliasing precisely like undersampling. The Moiré in the image is clearly caused by downsampling.
Best regards
Erik
I am not sure this was shot with a 800E, it is just mentioned as one example of moire.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I am not sure this was shot with a 800E, it is just mentioned as one example of moire.
Shot with Olympus E-400 with a 7-14mm zoom @ 7mm in February, 2007.
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Shot with Olympus E-400 with a 7-14mm zoom @ 7mm in February, 2007.
Mete-data is your friend. :)
Cheers,
Bernard
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Apologies! Just checked with PhotoME:)
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When have a manufactures first released samples of any camera looked even slightly good?
Kevin.
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Agreed KevinA.
I think there are a lot of people who are defining a product before it has a chance to be used properly.
The photo's put up are often not supposed to be stellar, amazing examples of photography. Most photographers taking these photo's don't want a credit-less photo going up that everybody can nit pick and associate it with them.
Chances are an engineer with some photography experience was sent to do field research on the camera, and snapped shots.
In addition, we don't know what post processing has been done. They might SAY little has been done, but what little is that exactly?
No, we should wait for the final product before deciding if it's genuinely comparable to MF.
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This should be interesting:
http://www.diglloyd.com/blog/2012/20120212_2-Comparing-36-megapixel.html
Cheers,
Bernard
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The image is obviously little cropped which is obvious from the Rayspective we see.
;D ;D ;D
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This should be interesting:
http://www.diglloyd.com/blog/2012/20120212_2-Comparing-36-megapixel.html
Cheers,
Bernard
well, interesting if he can get anyone to loan him an S2.
We have a little tradeshow thing we do in May and the Leica rep normally brings in an S2. I may get a chance to shoot the d800e and the S2 side by side for a couple of hours.
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well, interesting if he can get anyone to loan him an S2.
I would rush to provide him one for testing if I were Leica USA.
Heck, that is a unique opportunity to prove the world that those toy DSLR are not even worth their price tag compared to an S2 and its lenses.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Bonjour Bernard,
The D800 actually seems to be priced at a sweet point. But yes, the hype abut likening it to a medium format is a bit annoying.
Michael did quote recently on LuLa a comprehensive study about compared resolution from large format view camera all the way down (!!) to a D3X - that was quite an eye opener for me - you do indeed get what you pay for (in time or money).
I wish they had extended the range of the study all the way down to high end compact cameras though - with another protocol obviously.
Best,
Stephane
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This should be interesting:
http://www.diglloyd.com/blog/2012/20120212_2-Comparing-36-megapixel.html
Cheers,
Bernard
Now the samples of the 800e are released, I don't think there's any point doing the test.
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I would rush to provide him one for testing if I were Leica USA.
Heck, that is a unique opportunity to prove the world that those toy DSLR are not even worth their price tag compared to an S2 and its lenses.
Cheers,
Bernard
yup
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Now the samples of the 800e are released, I don't think there's any point doing the test.
Where are the D800E samples? Al I have seen is D800 samples like he ones linked in other threads here, like
http://networkedblogs.com/tOI2M
and
http://forum.xitek.com/forum-viewthread-tid-969280-extra-page%3D1-ordertype-2-t-1329013603.html
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Now the samples of the 800e are released, I don't think there's any point doing the test.
Do we have a comparison of the same scene with proper technique and conversion?
Cheers,
Bernard