Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: John Cothron on November 13, 2011, 01:24:07 am

Title: Looking to get into MF film
Post by: John Cothron on November 13, 2011, 01:24:07 am: Hello everyone,

I haven't shot film in a very long time, but I'm thinking seriously of getting back into it with MF. I will not be selling my DSLR equipment, or stop using it, but I "miss" film and was never fortunate enough to experience MF before.

I've been doing a lot of reading, and daydreaming at KEH..lol. Here is what I have in mind to get started..

Mamiya RZ67 Pro II body
120 film back (although a bit hard to find)
Mamiya Sekor 50mm f4/5 lens
Cable release of course

That will total slightly less that $900 which I though was a pretty good deal.

I realize the lens is wide angle, but I shoot a lot of intimate landscapes (waterfalls, etc.) soit fits well as a start.

Anything I'm missing? or alternates I should consider?

***someone is going to suggest Contax, but that's a little steeper than I want to invest at this point. I would LOVE to be shooting Zeiss glass (it's what I shoot on 35mm now) but I'll have to see how deep I get into this.

I appreciate any comments or information.

John
Title: Re: Looking to get into MF film
Post by: B-Ark on November 13, 2011, 07:59:57 am: You might need a light meter.
Title: Re: Looking to get into MF film
Post by: mediumcool on November 13, 2011, 08:07:18 am: Don’t get a 50mm without floating elements; the old 50mm for the RB barked and shed hair.
Title: Re: Looking to get into MF film
Post by: John Cothron on November 13, 2011, 08:24:10 am: Quote from: B-Ark on November 13, 2011, 07:59:57 am
You might need a light meter.

Thank you, I've got that.
Title: Re: Looking to get into MF film
Post by: John Cothron on November 13, 2011, 08:26:28 am: Quote from: mediumcool on November 13, 2011, 08:07:18 am
Don’t get a 50mm without floating elements; the old 50mm for the RB barked and shed hair.

Ahhh, this is where I have some questions. I did a little searching and didn't come up with a neat and clear list of what lens (s) not to get, or to get for that matter. Are you saying the one I have listed is the lens for the RB? I thought there was a difference between RB and RZ lenses. I don't suppose there is a quick and easy way for me to tell the difference in what I'm looking at is there?

Thank you
Title: Re: Looking to get into MF film
Post by: mediumcool on November 13, 2011, 09:21:18 am: Quote from: John Cothron on November 13, 2011, 08:26:28 am
Ahhh, this is where I have some questions. I did a little searching and didn't come up with a neat and clear list of what lens (s) not to get, or to get for that matter. Are you saying the one I have listed is the lens for the RB? I thought there was a difference between RB and RZ lenses. I don't suppose there is a quick and easy way for me to tell the difference in what I'm looking at is there?

Thank you

The lenses for the RZ are different, but an RZ can take an RB lens if I recall correctly. The RZ introduced electrically-activated shutters, where the earlier units had mechanical shutters, cocked by pushing the big lever (and advancing the film too).

What you need is a ULD. Some on eBAY (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mamiya-RZ67-Pro-II-IID-Z-ULD-M-50mm-4-5-L-Lens-NEW-/360398346003); B+H want $2K+! Unsure if the ULD was ever made for the RB (would be cheaper perhaps).
Title: Re: Looking to get into MF film
Post by: Alan Klein on November 13, 2011, 10:05:40 am: John: Here are photos with the 50mm. That's about 28mm equivalent with a 35mm camera. http://www.flickr.com/photos/alanklein2000/tags/50mm/

Here are all my RB67 shots. Most are probably the 90mm lens as I had it first before getting other lenses. It shoots "normal" equivalent to 50mm on a 35mm camera. There are some 180mm and 360mm too.

Landscape http://www.flickr.com/photos/alanklein2000/sets/72157625476289859/
People: http://www.flickr.com/photos/alanklein2000/sets/72157625602231872/

You'll get a lot of good exercise with this camera setup. Don't forget a heavy tripod and a cable release for mirror-up sharp pictures. Good luck. Alan.
Title: Re: Looking to get into MF film
Post by: John Cothron on November 13, 2011, 10:24:35 am: Quote from: Alan Klein on November 13, 2011, 10:05:40 am
John: Here are photos with the 50mm. That's about 28mm equivalent with a 35mm camera. http://www.flickr.com/photos/alanklein2000/tags/50mm/

Here are all my RB67 shots. Most are probably the 90mm lens as I had it first before getting other lenses. It shoots "normal" equivalent to 50mm on a 35mm camera. There are some 180mm and 360mm too.

Landscape http://www.flickr.com/photos/alanklein2000/sets/72157625476289859/
People: http://www.flickr.com/photos/alanklein2000/sets/72157625602231872/

You'll get a lot of good exercise with this camera setup. Don't forget a heavy tripod and a cable release for mirror-up sharp pictures. Good luck. Alan.

Alan, I REALLY appreciate your information. That helped me a lot. If that is the lens I originally listed I see nothing wrong with those images at all. Fantastic work by the way the lighthouse shot is excellent. I don't expect I will haul this system to some of the places I photograph (especially in addition to the 35 or so pounds of equipment I already carry), but I do want to use it at opportune times. I really miss shooting transparency and I think learning to use this system and shooting film again will be a blast.

If you look at my flickr stream (I added you as a contact) you will see I work with an ultra-wide a lot in my landscapes. I think the Zeiss 21 spends more time on my camera than any other lens I own easily. The 50mm focal length on MF will work nicely for me, especially to see how deep into this I want to get. Thank you again!
Title: Re: Looking to get into MF film
Post by: Michael Nelson on November 14, 2011, 11:30:09 am: John,

I've owned/used the RZ system since the 90's and I still use it. It is a very good camera system! I have the 65, 90, 110, 150, 180 and 250mm lens. They are VERY good lens...

I would buy the RZ/RZ lens instead of the RB.

I have seen RZ's with two or three lens on CraigsList for $750.00, in excellent condition.

The RZ system is big, heavy and BIG...Did i mention it is a very good system:)

Keep us posted on your decision.

Michael/Atlanta
(two images shot with the RZ on film)
Title: Re: Looking to get into MF film
Post by: John Cothron on November 14, 2011, 06:54:36 pm: Quote from: Michael Nelson on November 14, 2011, 11:30:09 am
John,

I've owned/used the RZ system since the 90's and I still use it. It is a very good camera system! I have the 65, 90, 110, 150, 180 and 250mm lens. They are VERY good lens...

I would buy the RZ/RZ lens instead of the RB.

I have seen RZ's with two or three lens on CraigsList for $750.00, in excellent condition.

The RZ system is big, heavy and BIG...Did i mention it is a very good system:)

Keep us posted on your decision.

Michael/Atlanta
(two images shot with the RZ on film)

Michael,

Thank you for your response. I have actually ordered the system as outlined above. The 50mm is not the ULD model but is the W model which I believe to be the Z" lens. From what I can determine the RB lenses did not have the W designation. In any event, this will get me started.

I also called Really Right Stuff and got a mounting plate on the way, and ordered some Provia 100F, mirror-up release from B&H. I'm on a business trip at the moment but everything should be there for me to play with when I return later this week. :) Hmmm... what I did not do is make plans for batteries. Are they easy to source?

I know it's a big system but that's okay, I tend to carry around a fair amount of equipment anyway. I don't think I'll be taking this on any week long treks, but there are a few places I would like to set it up for some shots.

Incidentally, those are beautiful shots you attached. Very very nice. I've done a little model/fashion photography but not a lot and certainly not of the quality those exhibit. My main focus is landscapes/nature.

Thanks again!

I also notice you're in the same part of the world. :) I live just up the road from you outside Gainesville, GA.

I'll let you know what happens when I get my
Title: Re: Looking to get into MF film
Post by: Michael Nelson on November 14, 2011, 07:43:56 pm: Landscapes/nature? Hey, I've got landscapes & nature:)

Any camera store or Walmart will have the 6v 'round' battery. Just take it out after use...

I will happy to answer questions on the RZ, if needed.

Michael
additional images shot with the RZ on negative film.
Title: Re: Looking to get into MF film
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 14, 2011, 08:17:36 pm: My view would be that if you are going to scan with a flatbed scanner, then a 4x5 camera with 6x9 film back might be a better option.

- you will have the potential to go larger when needed,
- you have all the power of movements,
- it won't be much more expensive, nor much heavier.

A quick search on ebay came up with this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tachihara-VW45FC-Film-Camera-Complete-Kit-/160681337547?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item25695aa2cb

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Looking to get into MF film
Post by: John Cothron on November 15, 2011, 08:56:53 am: Quote from: Michael Nelson on November 14, 2011, 07:43:56 pm
Landscapes/nature? Hey, I've got landscapes & nature:)

Any camera store or Walmart will have the 6v 'round' battery. Just take it out after use...

I will happy to answer questions on the RZ, if needed.

Michael
additional images shot with the RZ on negative film.

Very nice, and thanks for the battery info. I just checked it looks like my body/etc. is being delivered today..but I won't see it till late Thursday evening. I'm pretty excited, even more than getting a new lens :D

Nice looking images you have there. Do you shoot transparencies at all? Also, feel free to take a look at some of my 35mm work if you like:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/cothronphoto/

Thanks!
Title: Re: Looking to get into MF film
Post by: John Cothron on November 15, 2011, 09:00:10 am: Quote from: BernardLanguillier on November 14, 2011, 08:17:36 pm
My view would be that if you are going to scan with a flatbed scanner, then a 4x5 camera with 6x9 film back might be a better option.

- you will have the potential to go larger when needed,
- you have all the power of movements,
- it won't be much more expensive, nor much heavier.

A quick search on ebay came up with this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tachihara-VW45FC-Film-Camera-Complete-Kit-/160681337547?pt=Film_Cameras&hash=item25695aa2cb

Cheers,
Bernard

Bernard,

I appreciate the direction of thought. I indeed have considered getting into even larger format and may do so yet. I think I will enjoy the progression of moving up in size. One, just to shoot film again will be pretty exciting (although nothing has stopped me from shooting 35mm film). Two, I use to lust a lot over MF equipment so I suppose that is the first place my mind went. In any event, I have the equipment on the way so we will see where it goes. It would indeed be interesting to work with sheet film. I have a buddy that does and he seems to enjoy it.
Title: Re: Looking to get into MF film
Post by: John Cothron on November 21, 2011, 07:38:22 pm: UPDATE: I received my RZ67 late last week. Never having shot MF before, I must say the difference in working with the equipment is quite large. Pleasant, but large. The first time you look through that huge viewfinder is somewhat special :)

I've only shot one roll through the camera thusfar (Provia 100F). I should have those back mid-week or perhaps very early next week. I'm quite curious to see the results.

Again, I appreciate everyone's help and advice.
Title: Re: Looking to get into MF film
Post by: Doug Peterson on November 21, 2011, 07:42:39 pm: Don't judge yourself too harshly if the first roll is awful (this is a comment made in general - not specific or derogatory to you in any way). Switching formats is a large change and it's bound to take some time to get the technicals right, and even longer to get the technicals so under-foot that you stop thinking about them and fully focus on the aesthetics/mood/emotion/composition etc that really make great images.

The first several rolls are often technically imperfect (or worse), unimaginative, and uninspiring. That's to be expected.

Then again some people just pick it right up and can change formats, cameras, and lenses all in one go and start producing amazing work right away.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) ([email protected])
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Title: Re: Looking to get into MF film
Post by: John Cothron on November 21, 2011, 07:47:23 pm: Quote from: dougpetersonci on November 21, 2011, 07:42:39 pm
Don't judge yourself too harshly if the first roll is awful (this is a comment made in general - not specific or derogatory to you in any way). Switching formats is a large change and it's bound to take some time to get the technicals right, and even longer to get the technicals so under-foot that you stop thinking about them and fully focus on the aesthetics/mood/emotion/composition etc that really make great images.

The first several rolls are often technically imperfect (or worse), unimaginative, and uninspiring. That's to be expected.

Then again some people just pick it right up and can change formats, cameras, and lenses all in one go and start producing amazing work right away.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) ([email protected])

__________________

Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More

National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/") | RSS Feed (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")

Thanks Doug,

Some of what you say certainly rings true. I looked through the viewfinder and thought.. what do I do with all this????? lol The first roll is a test roll in most respects. In fact 5 of the ten shots are just playing around the house. I did take five exposures at a waterfall early Saturday morning. Of those I think one comp has some hope of being special but we will see. Not one to put all my eggs in one basket, I spent an hour shooting it 35mm digital before I got the Mamiya out.

I fully expect it to be a learning (and re-learning in some aspects) process. That is part of the reason I'm excited about it.
Title: Re: Looking to get into MF film
Post by: Gigi on November 22, 2011, 07:25:54 am: Back in the day when teaching film shooting was not uncommon, we used to take rolls just focusing on technique: one for just working on composition, one for backlit shots, another for checking the meter in odd situations, how slow can you hand hold, etc. Even went so far as to practice shooting without film (now that's tricky, but actually useful: you really do learn something). Then you can evaluate each roll for that skill.

Push the envelope with practice rolls and the skill level will be up for the great shot that wanders by.
Title: Re: Looking to get into MF film
Post by: mazen on November 22, 2011, 06:09:56 pm: Don't forget the film! :) enjoy

since u shoot inside forests with waterfalls, u might need a warm-up glass for shady landscapes to keep the organic characteristics of film instead of warming up digitally. i look forward to see the first scans. enjoy again
Title: Re: Looking to get into MF film
Post by: John Cothron on November 22, 2011, 06:27:19 pm: Thank you, and yes you are definitely correct. I thought about that as I was exposing that first roll last Saturday morning under very "cool" conditions. I expect my transparencies will look somewhat off but we will see.
Title: Re: Looking to get into MF film
Post by: revaaron on November 24, 2011, 01:28:10 am: I wouldn't get the 50mm, I would get the 110 f/2.8.
I want to get the rz67 pro ii body with a 120/220/polaroid
but I'm still putting it off.
Title: Re: Looking to get into MF film
Post by: itsskin on November 24, 2011, 06:09:35 am: Great system, great lenses!
The system, which I keep expanding.
Title: Re: Looking to get into MF film
Post by: John Cothron on November 24, 2011, 08:52:01 am: Quote from: revaaron on November 24, 2011, 01:28:10 am
I wouldn't get the 50mm, I would get the 110 f/2.8.
I want to get the rz67 pro ii body with a 120/220/polaroid
but I'm still putting it off.

I want them all, naturally ;D

I'm new to medium format, but in 35mm a 21mm focal length is by far my most used. That seems to be changing a bit recently, I'm using a 35 and 50 quite a bit as well. Still, I thought it best to start with the lens that I seem to use the most (in relative terms). Assuming I keep going down this road, I'm sure I'll get the 65 or 75, then the 110 most likely.

Right now I'm just anxious to get my first roll back. I got my new scanner yesterday so I'm playing with it on some old 35mm work I have.
Title: Re: Looking to get into MF film
Post by: John Cothron on November 28, 2011, 08:36:05 pm: I said I would show a couple of shots when I got a chance, so here are two from Dick's Creek Falls in north GA. Lighting wasn't all that but.... I wanted to shoot :) These are the first scans off the Epson V700 I just purchased. I'm still playing with the focus and as is usually the case, I'm not 100% happy with the sharpness coming out of the scanner. I still have some things to figure out there.

I will say this, looking at 6x7 transparencies is quite nice :)

These are shot on Provia 100F, 50mm lens.. both f16 at around 1-2 seconds.

(http://www.cothronphotography.com/photos/i-fqjqTGK/0/XL/i-fqjqTGK-X2.jpg)

(http://www.cothronphotography.com/photos/i-LRGvKqb/0/X2/i-LRGvKqb-X2.jpg)

Anyone have any scanner focusing secrets I'd love to hear them :)
Title: Re: Looking to get into MF film
Post by: Alan Klein on November 28, 2011, 08:59:42 pm: John Nice shots. And your V700 scans are much better than my V600. Sharper. Alan
Title: Re: Looking to get into MF film
Post by: SecondFocus on November 28, 2011, 09:20:16 pm: Very nice John!

See if this helps you, others have mentioned this in other threads...

http://www.betterscanning.com/
Title: Re: Looking to get into MF film
Post by: John Cothron on November 28, 2011, 09:25:39 pm: Quote from: Alan Klein on November 28, 2011, 08:59:42 pm
John Nice shots. And your V700 scans are much better than my V600. Sharper. Alan

Appreciate it Alan :)

It may be my level of expectation. I've gotten so use to digital (5D and 5DII) and sharpening at 100%...very little sharpening actually. I remember scanning 35mm film and having many of the same issues even with a dedicated film scanner. It helps to view at something less than 100%.. 1:2 is where I sharpened these. Still, it seems to take much more than you would think.

What scanning software are you using? I read a rather long thread on scanning that you started and I think you stuck with the Epson Scan. I have used it, Silverfast SE, and VueScan. So far I like the first two options better... I particularly do not like the histogram options available in VueScan, other than that it seems a nice interface.
Title: Re: Looking to get into MF film
Post by: John Cothron on November 28, 2011, 09:28:10 pm: Quote from: SecondFocus on November 28, 2011, 09:20:16 pm
Very nice John!

See if this helps you, others have mentioned this in other threads...

http://www.betterscanning.com/

Thank you, I'm aware of their holders. It seems they have infinite adjustment between 2.5 and 4mm or close to that. The adjusters Epson give you will get you either 2.5mm (taking them out), 3.0, or 3.5mm. I've played around a little and it doesn't seem to make a lot of difference going above 3.5mm (using rigged shims). It may be my method there but I'd like to prove out the theory before dropping $90 on the holder that "may" not improve focus. Thanks for the tip though!
Title: Re: Looking to get into MF film
Post by: uaiomex on November 28, 2011, 11:48:36 pm: John, maybe this can help. http://www.wetmounting.com/Pages/MyScanner/MyScannerSelect.html

Eduardo
Title: Re: Looking to get into MF film
Post by: John Cothron on November 29, 2011, 10:51:23 am: Quote from: uaiomex on November 28, 2011, 11:48:36 pm
John, maybe this can help. http://www.wetmounting.com/Pages/MyScanner/MyScannerSelect.html

Eduardo

Thanks for the response Eduardo. I've read some about wet mounting and it certainly looks interesting, I may end up there.
Title: Re: Looking to get into MF film
Post by: Kerry L on November 29, 2011, 11:37:35 am: Quote from: John Cothron on November 13, 2011, 01:24:07 am
I've been doing a lot of reading, and daydreaming at KEH..lol. Here is what I have in mind to get started..

Mamiya RZ67 Pro II body
120 film back (although a bit hard to find)
Mamiya Sekor 50mm f4/5 lens
Cable release of course

I use the RZ system. Your list looks like a good start, I'd be looking for the G3 hood. Nice thing about the RZ lenses is that the filter ring is the same on all lenses (except the 37 fish-eye) so a 77mm polarizer is a one time buy. I use the B&W by Schneider.

Get the double cable release, so you can shoot with mirror lock-up. It triggers the mirror and then the lens.

If you decide to get a AE prisum finder, buy the new version, (the controls are on top, not on the side.)

120 backs should be fairly easy to find. As suggested in other posts the 50 ULD is a much better lens than the original 50 W. They are hard to come by but well worth the wait. The 50 is wide, I found that I used the 65mm more than any other lens. The RB lenses will work but you should keep with the new RZ lenses.

On last thing, the camera and lens are heavy, get a good h/d tripod!!
Title: Re: Looking to get into MF film
Post by: Alan Klein on November 29, 2011, 09:30:13 pm: John: I use Epson scan with the V600. I never tried the other two. Alan
Title: Re: Looking to get into MF film
Post by: Professional on December 04, 2011, 05:11:07 pm: I am late to reply here, but after some time with my Epson V750 i started to love my scans, sure i dream to get a drum scanner or at least a dedicated film scanner such as Nikon 9000, but i have to be patient with my Epson, first time i used it i hate it and i was trying to find thousands excuses just to buy another better scanner, but because i was busy and the budget was not good that time i hold that Epson for a while, then later day after day i see my work improved a lot.

I use Epson Scan, it give me the simplest interface to work with, i have SilverFast and VueScan, both can do great job but i was confused with SilverFast interface, and with some tests with VueScan i found that Epson Scan gave me same or even better results than VueScan with simpler/easier interface, so i stuck with Epson Scan until the time i feel i have to change it.

Yes, i only use film MF and LF, no 35mm yet, and the best MF i have i like is Fuji GSW690III then if my Mamiya 7II is working then it will be second but it doesn't work yet [problem and i will send for repair later in the future], so Mamiya RZ67 ProII is coming second, of course LF is another league by itself.