Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: JJ on July 31, 2011, 07:17:46 pm
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For the past number of years I've been content shooting architectural assignments with my Canon 1Ds (original) with Zork Panorama Shift Adaptor and Mamiya lenses. This combination has served me well, but I'm ready to upgrade to a digital back in concert with either the arTec or Cambo system.
There are so many digital back options on the market, from 20 megapixels to 65 and 80? In short, I have roughly between 50K-70K that I'm willing to invest in new gear and I would like to get some sort of idea what is an ideal set up. I would appreciate hearing your thoughts. Cheers,
Jeremy
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The biggest thing to look for if you are going to be using movements is to select a back that does not have micro-lenses to concentrate light on photosites.
Backs like my [oldish] Aptus 22 (large sensor with large-ish photosites and no micro-lenses) are great for lens movement because there is little colour change; I have been stitching 2x images together with my Mamiya 50mm shifted left, then right, and often don’t bother to use LCC (particularly when I forget to take an LCC frame!). I also have a Toyo 23VX view camera, but the one lens I have for it won’t focus to infinity.
(http://mlkshk.com/r/52MP)
This is made from one frame shot centred, and the second shifted to the right (M645). That’s why it’s not a wide pano.
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Check out some of Chris Barrett's posts. He's a great architecture shooter and has a pretty sweet setup. I shoot with a Phase One and Cambo Wide DS and it works great. I would check out some of the deals on a refurb P45+ or P65+ and get a Cambo or other Tech Camera. Probably looking at 33k or so with a P65+, Cambo Wide RS and a couple of lenses. Talk to Steve over at Capture Integration, he'll set you up.
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P45+ or IQ160 would be my choice. One could go with the IQ180 if you have the cash. I personally think that the P45+ is an amzing package. The image quality is amazing and can be bought a lot cheaper than the new IQ stuff.
When it comes to cameras there are 4 options, Sinar, Alpa, Arca, Cambo. If you need tilt, it would be Sinar or Arca. All of them are great cameras. If you want one camera with movments i think the Arca is the best choice, if you want one with movements and a second to walk around Alpa is the better way to go.
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Cambo also have the tilt lenses
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As do Alpa, but only for some lenses and not to cheap.
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I don't think money is an issue if the budget is 50k - 70k :)
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http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=56265.0
get the alpa and a back you like, after testing the usual culprits on your camera, with your lenses.
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by the way, I don't know the guy selling this
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50k - 70k can still be to little if you want an IQ180, an Alpa or Arca with a few lenses. Especially if you want something wide like the 23 or 32, which together I think would be over 12k.
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Thank you all for your input. I appreciate your thoughts.
I would like to work with all these cameras and see which is most intuitive.
Wednesday I will try the Alpa system with the p45. There's a lot to consider.
Yes, Christopher, you're correct. The Alpa 23mm is 6K, and the Sinar 23mm is twice that. The money goes fast.
Jeremy
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Thanks for the plug, Weldon! Recently at the Phase One Architecture PODAS we were lucky enough to have André on hand from Alpa. He had some really beautiful gear with him! I'm quite in love with my Arca (http://christopherbarrett.net/blog/?p=1350), but you couldn't go wrong with either brand.
As has already been mentioned, a P45+ is a hell of a back for the money and gives you the ability to do really long exposures. I'm happy with my P65+, more so than an IQ180 if you're considering a Tech Camera...
I would start with the camera system... my recommendations are the Arca Rm3di or the Alpa 12 Max. Lenses... I like to have 35,43,55,70,90,120 probably something wider too, but I HATE shooting that wide.
Then look at the money you have left and either get a P45+ or an IQ160.
My 2 Sense.
CB
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Jeremy,
Try to get an Alpa Max, with both V & H shift possibilities.
You know where to find me, should you have any question left open.
Best
Thierry
Wednesday I will try the Alpa system with the p45. There's a lot to consider.
Jeremy
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Can't speak well enough of the Alpa system and a Phase back...
My advice would be to consider putting your cash into the camera and lenses, they will serve you well indefinitely and then lease a back and upgrade it whenever the lease runs out...That way you stay on top of the evolving technology of the backs.
Murray
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The Sinar 23 12k??, I bought it two years ago for 6k, so I can`t imagine this price...
The Sinar emotion 75LV is very fine for architecture and you can get it for much less than the new backs...
I think it was a wrong decision that Sinar disappeared from the forum-scenes because their products are still competitive...
The ALPA is the best camera I had in my hands, but for my architectural work I don`t want to miss the sliding back of my SINAR Artec.
Michael Heinrich
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A camera really worth investigating is the Hartbleu. One advantage is that it seems to take any back and any lens combination. So you could, for example, use the stunning new TSE lenses from Canon (17 & 24mm) and get what would probably be enough movement WITHOUT any of the silly colour shifts and fall-off that seems to plague the latest 80 backs. (Sure, you can do LCC's but you'll still find movements limited.) Don't be fooled by the fact that they are Canon lenses and not proper large format lenses. You should give one a try.
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Hi,
Great advice here thanks.
What do you think is the BEST digital back for architecture interior? Sinar, Hasselblad, Phase-One or Leaf.
Gr
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It depends how you work. A nice P45+ is certainly one of the best when it comes to value. However, all modern backs have good and bad things, there is nothing perfect.
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Robert,
It all depends what are your requests to this DB. There are issues like "long exposure times", "size of the sensor vs shift possibilities vs lenses to be used", "white shadings to be applied in a batch", etc ...
- When it comes to "long exposure times" (understand over 30"), I think everybody agrees that the PO 45+ is the winner of all categories available.
- Sensor size vs shift possibilities vs lenses used is something you have to think about carefully, depending on your needs.
- Now, concerning "white shadings" (LCC), there is something to think about. If there is just a few LCCs to be applied and a few files a day to be corrected this way, there isn't much of a concern, each back and software can handle it very well nowadays. However, should you have dozen or hundreds a day to correct, then you should be carefully thinking about which back. AFAIK, C1 is not able to handle such LLCs in a batch and automated process as can do it e.g. Sinar eXposure (unfortunately not longer available and not longer supported, and Captureshop did not integrate this part of eXposure). Architecture photographer Rainer Viertlböck (member here) is one of those photographers shooting exclusively architecture and in this having daily dozen of LLC corrections to do. He used to work with Sinarbacks and the eXposure SW, for which he helped to integrate the "batch process" for LCCs. Then happened what happened with eXposure and Sinar, and having spoken with Rainer recently I know that he is now working with a Leaf back and LC SW which is the best adapted for his workflow in terms of LCC corrections. I don't say that this is an important point for you, when shooting architecture, but it has to be considered when a lot of LCCs have to be processed daily. In this case choosing one workflow or the other can save hours of time in terms of LCC corrections.
Just my cent to the debate.
Best
Thierry
What do you think is the BEST digital back for architecture interior? Sinar, Hasselblad, Phase-One or Leaf.
Gr
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Don't forget about the Linhof Techno. You can see Sean Conboy shooting architecture with one here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkbWQCciUrQ). Compact, superb build quality, a great range of movements (more than any of the other systems mentioned so far), no expensive helical mounts and will hold pretty much any lens bewteen 23 - 250mm without the need for additional spacers and the like. Bellows focussing may not be to your liking, but if you're shooting tethered or with an IQ back that should be a non-issue. Even without shooting tethered or using an IQ back focussing isn't that much of a problem - it uses high ratio gearing with fixed (and ajustable) infinity stops. Also, the acute groundglass offered by Linhof, whilst expensive, is a gem.
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Bellows focussing may not be to your liking...
Remember, you can also use helicals on any of your lenses (particularly useful on the wide-angles) and then mount them on standard Techno lens boards. They're available from Schneider and Rodenstock for about $400 each. Position the lens at the infinity stop (on the Techno, not the helical) and then use the helical to focus as normal.
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Such a nice camera, the Techno, i forgot Linhof completely, But is there a sliding back to buy for it.. as i am shure i would be realy unconfortable to use it without...
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THERE is , BUCKSHOT! YOU MADE MY DAY!!! realy ! :)
And it's my birthday tomorrow!,
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Don't forget about the Linhof Techno. You can see Sean Conboy shooting architecture with one here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkbWQCciUrQ). Compact, superb build quality, a great range of movements (more than any of the other systems mentioned so far), no expensive helical mounts and will hold pretty much any lens bewteen 23 - 250mm without the need for additional spacers and the like. Bellows focussing may not be to your liking, but if you're shooting tethered or with an IQ back that should be a non-issue. Even without shooting tethered or using an IQ back focussing isn't that much of a problem - it uses high ratio gearing with fixed (and ajustable) infinity stops. Also, the acute groundglass offered by Linhof, whilst expensive, is a gem.
Great looking camera, very odd video though. Is it asking too much to see the finished images?
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Yes the Linhof is a nice camera (conecept), but in my eyes far behind Arca and Alpa. (Yes, i have worked woth one a long time and did not like it as much as other cameras. I would never use this camera again.)
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THERE is , BUCKSHOT! YOU MADE MY DAY!!! realy ! :)
And it's my birthday tomorrow!,
There's a new, more compact sliding back on the way from Linhof as well:
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Also, the Kapture Group standard and sliding backs.
Christopher...what didn't you like about the Techno? I think it, along with the M-Line 2 from A/S, are really nice systems. I'm seriously thinking of moving from my Cambo to the Linhof, I was that impressed with it.
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It depends how you work. If you always shoot to a computer, great. It works and It is "fun". (Or as much fun as it can be to shoot to a computer in these days) However, i found that the camera isn't very stable or repeatable when it comes to settings and stitching. On my Arca (same goes for Alpa, Sinar or Cambo) 5m are 5m every time, infinity is infinity every time. On the Linhof I had to refocus every time to get a perfect match.
Personally I find the poor quality not that good. The Arca M is much better. I sometimes have the feeling that Linhof tried to make it to "light". I noticed that sometimes shifting at f8 wasn't possible, because the back wasn't parallel to the lens anymore. Another time it worked again. It never worked at f5,6. Or should I say it worked when the camera is new or comes from a re calibration from Linhof, but after some time nothing fits so perfectly anymore.
Son't get me wrong the concept is great and perhaps, a few things changed in the last year, but I would never buy that camera again and if I needed one with bellows, it would be the M-line 2. If not it would be Alpa or Arca.
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Can you tilt the lens in all directions on the Arca Rm3di, up-down, left-right and for exampel down and a little bit leftwards?
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Can you tilt the lens in all directions on the Arca Rm3di, up-down, left-right and for exampel down and a little bit leftwards?
No. Either up-down or left-right.
Chris
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@Christopher: Interesting how one user's experiences can be so different from another's...the ironic thing being that it was your positive feedback on using the Techno over at GetDPI (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12425&highlight=linhof+techno) that got me interested in it in the first place ;)
My experience with the Techno has almost all been good. The only negative was with the current sliding back, which isn't good - too much like a sail on a windy day, heavy and not that easy to use. I found that the force needed to move the DB across was enough to sometimes move the camera. Definitely not recommended. The sooner Linhof introduce the new back the better, though I believe production has been put back (no pun intended) by demand for the 3D head and the Techno itself. I absolutely agree that hitting the mark (e.g. 5m) with a bellows camera is not as easy as with a helical, although if the helical doesn't specifically have a 5m mark (for example) it's not that easy either. For wide angle lenses though I'd probably just focus at the hyperfocal distance (using a set 'infinity' stop) and stop down, making focussing a no brainer, and certainly not requiring the DB to be tethered. As greygrad mentioned above, there is also the option to mount your wide-angle lenses in helicals, perhaps with Alpa's HPF rings installed as well. This would give you the best of both worlds. In a standard Techno lensboard, the Rodenstock 40mm HR-W would cost about $3900, in an Arca-Swiss R mount that would be $5300 and in an Alpa mount a staggering $6450, so - if cost is an issue - there are significant savings to be made when it comes to lenses by using the Techno/ML2. As far as build quality is concerned, I found the Techno I used to be first class - very solid at only 100g lighter than the ML2. In particular, the rear standard and base were completely rigid, as you'd expect since they are machined from the same, single piece of alloy.
Unfortunately the Techno suffers from a lack of end user feedback and promotion. Plenty of well reknowned photographers use it - Joe Cornish in particular is one that comes to mind, and he shoots it in a lot of very demanding conditions, untethered, using the Linhof original sliding back. However, other than a review by the British Journal of Photography (http://www.bjp-online.com/british-journal-of-photography/test/1650231/vorsprung-durch-techno), and this guy's blog (http://www.hockingphotographic.co.uk/blog/linhof-techno-episode-1-the-journey-begins-buy-the-kit/), there is virtually nothing written (in English) about the camera, and the 'ins' and 'outs' of using it on a daily basis. In comparison, there is a wealth of information available of the net about the Arca, Alpa and Cambo line of cameras - both positive and negative - so that a fully informed opinion of each system can be developed. Furthermore, in contrast to those manufacturers just mentioned, Linhof's distributor/dealer base seems to do little to promote the camera. In Canada, 'Blazes Photographic' is listed as their distributor. I'm tempted to say, 'Who the blazes are they?' They don't even have a website listing who they distribute to. Not very useful.
Just my 2c (or should that be 3c given the way the Looney is performing?)
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just picked up thread being shooting in scandinavia iam afraid i do not make many posts but i do enjoy reading the LL forums when i get chance.But felt being a Techno user i should give some feedback , i have been using the techno since oct 09 it was my choice after testing many cameras and has fitted in with me very well. Prior to digital capture i always shot on 4x5 cameras Sinar p2, Ebony sw,and Toyo vx125 so iam happy with bellows focusing and like the full range of movements the Techno gives me. My work means a lot of travel in cars ,trains and airplanes and is all on location so i must confess i work the camera very hard and cannot praise the camera enough,especially its build quality and accuracy.I find accurate focusing not a problem with techno ,although do not use the sliding back for the problems already mentioned i prefer and use the direct back.I use focal lengths 23.32.43.47.58.72.90.110.150.210 so for me the fact i do not have to helically mount is a cost saver.
I shoot tethered whenever i can to me it is like the ultimate polaroid,and art directors love it .But there are many situations when i shoot untethered and find this also works well for me . Hope this helps with a bit of feedback from a end user
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Tell us a little more about what and how you shoot. Are you a "get in close with a ultrawide" guy? Do you prefer to stand off a little? Do you travel a lot? Do you work with an assistant or do you work solo? Do you shoot a lot of interiors? Do you need to shoot handheld much? Is speed of operation an issue? Are you seriously image-quality driven or is a "decent" A3 file going to do the job? The answers to these questions will influence the choice of camera and back.
My work involves lots of travel, by road, sea and air, sometimes with, but often without my trusty assistant, Roy. On some jobs, I need to produce maybe 4 studied architectural images in a day and on some industrial shoots, I am pumping out 40 images whilst frantic activity continues on site, whist lugging all my kit on my back.
I have posted extensively on this subject both here and on getDPI, but for me, having used the Horseman SW-D and SW-DII for years and tested the Cambo and RM-3D, there is only one camera that can satisfy all my criteria for size, weight, ease of use, range of lenses and accessories, comfort and most importantly, build quality and dealer/factory support - the Alpa STC. This is not to say this is the right camera for you. Alpa make several other cameras such as the Max and the SWA, each of which has its own merits, but for all-round balance of performance, I think the STC rocks. I currently run P45+, Aptus 12 and IQ180 backs, but to my thinking, the back that offers the best bang-for-the-buck in your budget is without doubt the Phase One IQ160. Unlike the 180, it has better lenscast performance with the ultrawides. I have a P65+ (currently for sale) that has the same sensor and I have been shooting with that for a bit over a year to great effect. The workflow using the touchscreen on the IQ combined with the ease of handling of the Alpa STC is very smooth and fast. Now with liveview on the IQ, the little Alpa is a charm.
Certainly have a look at as many options as you can, but I do think this combo is hard to improve on.
If you want some examples of the kind of things I do with my setup, have a look at the Construction, Industrial and Aviation sections of my website, www.bryansiebel.com
Cheers,
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Does anyone use or know if the ALPA Apo - Switar 5.6/36mm is as good as the newer Rodenstock HR 32mm lens with a 80MP back?
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Does anyone use or know if the ALPA Apo - Switar 5.6/36mm is as good as the newer Rodenstock HR 32mm lens with a 80MP back?
oh no... is similar to the digitar 35 XL i have... extremely good at F11 without mvts... but the image circle isn't really large !
"P45+ or IQ160 would be my choice."
+1 along with an arca swiss RM3Di
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Hi Bryan, do you use the Alpa viewfinder or the live-view on the phase back? Have you tested the Schneider ALPA Apo-Helvetar 5.6/28 mm lens and found any Color casts which are not fixable even with a LCC shot? What do the files off the Schneider Apo-Digitar 5.6/35 mm XL look like with say 15mm or more of rise or shift with the IQ180 or Leaf-12?
Thank You
Michael
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Michael,
I would suggest you to read here, in this thread about the use of short focal length lenses with symmetrical design on the newest 80 MPx sensors. It will tell you that you should be careful with such symmetrical lenses on sensors like the one in the IQ 180 and in the Leaf 12
Symmetrical vs Retro-Focus Lenses (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27729)
Best regards
Thierry
Hi Bryan, do you use the Alpa viewfinder or the live-view on the phase back? Have you tested the Schneider ALPA Apo-Helvetar 5.6/28 mm lens and found any Color casts which are not fixable even with a LCC shot? What do the files off the Schneider Apo-Digitar 5.6/35 mm XL look like with say 15mm or more of rise or shift with the IQ180 or Leaf-12?
Thank You
Michael