Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: torchiam on July 22, 2011, 11:43:32 pm
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hi everyone.
i learned a lot from the post i did last time.thank you all for the help.after that post i talked with several dealers around my place.and i start to wonder how many people really purchase the IQ180.the dealer told me usually it takes 2 month to deliver the order and sometimes even longer.dose phase really makes that few?is any friend here in the luminous landscape forum actually have a IQ180?
and the other question i have in mind is phase calls its camera an open system.but with phase one lens mount,phase one digital back mount,how can it be an 'open system'?open to whom?the 645df mount back can be used on other cameras?
thanks in advance for any reply~~
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I have the IQ180 and it is wonderful. I use it both on a Phase One (Mamiya) and Alpa TC bodies. It can be used on a number of other bodies, which makes it an "open" system.
The screen is fantastic, giving high resolution, and quick high magnified images to check on focus when using a technical camera. Still waiting for the "psuedo-live" view which will hopefully be in the next firmware revision.
For me the improved useability with a technical camera made the upgrade worthwhile, although it is a high price to pay for adding something a bit more than an iPhone screen. I'm happy I upgraded from the P65+ back because of the useability, not increased image quality.
And for what it's worth, I've found a huge difference in dealer support. I can't recommend Capture Integration too highly.
Paul
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thanks Paul,it is really nice to hear somebody tell the story who really owns one.
so you mean the alpa camera has the same digital back mount as the 645DF?
and please forgive to bother you another question.what firmware do you have on the 645df body,1.21 or 1.23？if it is 1.21,is there significant problems?and can we upgrade the body without the v grip?
thanks~~
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I own an IQ180 and I run it on my Phase One DF, Horseman SW-DII, Alpa STC, and Fuji GX680 systems.
You will probably find that the delay in delivering newly ordered IQ180's is because Phase is still catching up with back-orders. If I remember correctly, the situation was pretty much the same when the P25, P45+ and P65+ were launched. This will likely improve as the rollout continues.
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Phase One backs have dedicated mounts (for Mamiya, Hasselblad H, V and Contax).
Depending which mount the DB has, Alpa provides adapters for any of those mounts.
ALPA adj back adapter MA645A (Phase One) (http://www.alpa.ch/en/products/backs-adapters/digital-backs-and-adapters/alpa-adjustable-back-adapter-ma645a0.html)
The same can be done with other digital backs from Leaf, from Hasselblad, from Sinar.
These adapters from Alpa are adjustable with shims, allowing a perfect and precise positioning of the sensor at infinity, to get the most precise possible focusing.
Here the Alpa adapter plate for Phase One Mamiya MA645A:
so you mean the alpa camera has the same digital back mount as the 645DF?
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hi everyone.
i learned a lot from the post i did last time.thank you all for the help.after that post i talked with several dealers around my place.and i start to wonder how many people really purchase the IQ180.the dealer told me usually it takes 2 month to deliver the order and sometimes even longer.dose phase really makes that few?is any friend here in the luminous landscape forum actually have a IQ180?
and the other question i have in mind is phase calls its camera an open system.but with phase one lens mount,phase one digital back mount,how can it be an 'open system'?open to whom?the 645df mount back can be used on other cameras?
thanks in advance for any reply~~
NOWADAYS, the Phase camera system is not in any way more "open" than the competing Hasselblad system, but the backs can be used on tech cameras and Alpa without an external power source. Hassleblad truly used to be open (you can still find a lot of guys here using H bodies with Phase backs) but they then decided to create an integrated body-back-lens system. Mamiya was also an open camera taking Leaf and Phase backs, until Phase acquired them.
Edmund
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NOWADAYS, the Phase camera system is not in any way more "open" than the competing Hasselblad system, but the backs can be used on tech cameras and Alpa without an external power source. Hassleblad truly used to be open (you can still find a lot of guys here using H bodies with Phase backs) but they then decided to create an integrated body-back-lens system. Mamiya was also an open camera taking Leaf and Phase backs, until Phase acquired them.
Edmund
Actually this is not true. Phase One still has an open system. You can get a brand new Phase Back that will go on a Hasselblad H1/H2, Hasselblad V, Mamiya/Phase, Contax or a Tech Camera. New Hasselblad backs only fit on Hasselblads and Tech Cameras.
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Actually this is not true. Phase One still has an open system. You can get a brand new Phase Back that will go on a Hasselblad H1/H2, Hasselblad V, Mamiya/Phase, Contax or a Tech Camera. New Hasselblad backs only fit on Hasselblads and Tech Cameras.
Actually, new Phase backs only go on the OLD Hasselblad models (H1, H2, V) and the OLD Contax models and the current Mamiya and Phase and tech cameras.
This discussion has been done to death. THERE ARE NO MORE OPEN SYSTEMS. Mrs Open died and Mr. Film has been removed to an old people's home.
Many of us had hopes with the Sinar/Leaf that there would be at least one modern and open system available. It didn't happen that way.
Edmund
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Edmund
maybe you take a look at our hcam.de site.
If you want to see a really open system we have it - HCam-B1 taking ALL Backs, with about ANY lenses but with the heart of modern electronics shutter and comfort.
Greetings from Mr.Open ähem I mean
Stefan Steib - hcam.de
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Actually, new Phase backs only go on the OLD Hasselblad models (H1, H2, V)
Yes, but that's because Hasselblad closed their system, not because Phase closed theirs.
There isn't anyone else making a MFSLR body that will allow a phase back on it right now. So it is open, Phase doesn't restrict you, but that's not much good since there's no other choices.
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Yes, but that's because Hasselblad closed their system, not because Phase closed theirs.
There isn't anyone else making a MFSLR body that will allow a phase back on it right now. So it is open, Phase doesn't restrict you, but that's not much good since there's no other choices.
Phase and Hasselblad are about as open these days as Apple and Microsoft. There - I hope that analogy will be helpful to the OP and makes everyone as happy as a computer buyer :)
Edmund
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Actually, new Phase backs only go on the OLD Hasselblad models (H1, H2, V) and the OLD Contax models and the current Mamiya and Phase and tech cameras.
This discussion has been done to death. THERE ARE NO MORE OPEN SYSTEMS. Mrs Open died and Mr. Film has been removed to an old people's home.
Many of us had hopes with the Sinar/Leaf that there would be at least one modern and open system available. It didn't happen that way.
Edmund
I agree.
I think photographers need to get use to the fact that we're not in the old camera for a decade business cycle, we're in the electronic business cycle which usually means 18 months to 2 years and everything you own becomes obsolete.
Sometimes I don't get why camera sales became secondary to digital sales. During film, Hasselblad, Mamiya, Contax could care less if they got a piece of the film sales or processing action. they were content selling cameras, lenses and accessories and seemed to thrive.
Then came digital and everyone started scrambling for turf. It's not the camera sales were a downer, it's just camera sales didn't make the money digital back's sold for so everyone moved to selling their camera backs. If you didn't have one, you went away, like Contax and Bronica and to some extend Rollei.
Like everything it revolves around money and each companies business model. I don't think Phase can sell $4,000 digital backs even if they could lower the price and up the sales volume, because their business model isn't set up that way.
I firmly believe that when the day the first Canon 1ds was announced that if digital backs were interchangeable for any medium format body and sold in the $8,000 and under range, Canon wouldn't have dominated the market for still cameras.
But they didn't and here we are today, with one back per per body mount and proprietary systems on processing and workflow. So there is no real open camera anywhere.
Same with Nikon and Canon. They're not open systems, but nobody complains because the costs of those are fractions of the cost of medium format, from bodies, digital film, lenses and accessories.
The only thing that throws this into disarray is the onset of video/motion imagery, which is following the same path as stills.
The last few weeks we've been working non stop, huge hours shooting on a RED One as an a camera, the Sony FS100 as a B cam and this week we have a 4 day breather before we get back into production.
During this period I was offered an Epic for $58,000. All the kids in our studio we're wide eyed and urged me to buy it. I got caught up in the enthusiasm also and said, uh okay, but let me do an evening of research.
We started the ordering process until I realized that the Epic isn't fully ready yet, missing batteries, EFV and Grip. Also it only takes PL mount so grand total to shoot something is close to $100,000.
Then I looked at the Specs. The Epic is only 3 pounds lighter and isn't really a 5k camera, because it shoots a 2 to 1 ration vs. a 16x9 native ratio which means by the time it's cropped down it's a 4 1/2 K camera.
I've been through the early years of digital stills where I was a non paid beta tester and I thought naw, this is crazy paying $100,000 for something not fully baked yet, so I made my decision to add another RED One as a backup and continue on with life.
Also, as a business person I understand that Phase/Leaf/Mamiya and Hasselblad must do what will maximize their profits, but I believe they've worked themselves into a old style business model that is going to be difficult to change, at least on a professional level.
Even Canon and Nikon aren't rushing to the door to offer new professional cameras, because the professional market is very wary of large investments in equipment.
As professional image makers, we are becoming less and less prone to just buy because it's new. Amateurs, which is a much larger market, are the real driver of still photography and the marketing thrust by Phase and Hasselblad reflects this.
I guess my point is, things are what they are and you can't fault any company for doing what they think is best.
As users, we don't set on the board of camera companies, work in R+D or have any say so as to what is made for a certain price.
We only vote with our pocketbook and by the time a company or industry realizes they've made a mistake then it's usually too late to recover.
IMO
BC
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mr bcooter, i thought the brain of an epic was about 28k? i wouldn't have thought a few accessories like a battery etc would add up too much..
the price of an epic has had me questioning the price of the latest medium format offerings.... i mean, i would love a full frame back with a great screen- its about time backs had these. but for not much more, you can get a movie camera that can shoot a blockbuster...
in a country like new zealand, i know there will be probably at least a dozen epics purchased privately- excluding the 30 or more that peter jackson has bought.
i would be very surprised if the whole of new zealand photographers buy 3 of these new phase one backs...
not that people don't want them, its just priced out of the market here.
paul
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mr bcooter, i thought the brain of an epic was about 28k? i wouldn't have thought a few accessories like a battery etc would add up too much..
the price of an epic has had me questioning the price of the latest medium format offerings.... i mean, i would love a full frame back with a great screen- its about time backs had these. but for not much more, you can get a movie camera that can shoot a blockbuster...
in a country like new zealand, i know there will be probably at least a dozen epics purchased privately- excluding the 30 or more that peter jackson has bought.
i would be very surprised if the whole of new zealand photographers buy 3 of these new phase one backs...
not that people don't want them, its just priced out of the market here.
paul
The only epics being sold now are a kit and hand made, unless you want to wait a year.
They go for $58,000, though the grip, batteries and EFV Bomb are not out yet, so you need extra red one batteries and chargers, mini xlr to normal xlr inputs, rails, ssd cards which go from $1,400 to $3,800 and of course lenses. I use nikon mount Ziess and the Epic only takes PL so that's a minimum of 20 to 30 k for a decent amount of primes.
that get's you close to 90 grand and don't forget tax of 10.5% and your staring at 100 large.
Now the Epic is smaller than the RED ONE by about 1/2 but only weighs 3 lbs less (not including batteries or grip) and it's not really 5k if you shoot 16x9 because the Epic is 2:1 ratio.
And don't forget you gotta wait for the bomb, the batteries and the grip and in RED Land that can be a long wait.
Also, don't price stuff on the RED site, go into the store and start loading up. You'll drop 25k on stuff before you get warmed up.
Little things from RED don't come cheap and make the IQ 180 look like the price of a 5d2.
So add it up and maybe they will sell 60 of them in your home country, but I bet when they add it up, 90% of the sales go into rentals.
Compare that to the 25k for a base RED One with the mx sensor and no matter how you cut it you save 30 grand.
Also, I don't know what Mr. Jackson pays, but I'll bet you dollars to donuts that he don't pay cash and he don't pay list.
IMO
BC
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never thought this could go to red one.....any one has a thought on Arri alexa?
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never thought this could go to red one.....any one has a thought on Arri alexa?
This is an inevitable comparison between the RED and medium format, given that that motion is more of a requirement for professional photographers and there is only so much room in the pie for expenditures.
The RED, though low priced for real cinema cameras, is very close in price to medium format and has parallels between medium format and dslrs.
Also the RED has somewhat the same business model of medium format. New camera with 80% of the features, with 20% to come. We've all played this game.
Right now most professional photographers that are learning how to price, produce and shoot motion and doing so with smaller cameras. The next step up the food chain is the RED or the Arri.
With a learning curve, continuous lights, different camera mounts and a new workflow, different crew, it's not just money. There is also so much room in the time pie, unless someone invents the 36 hour day.
IMO
BC
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never thought this could go to red one.....any one has a thought on Arri alexa?
IMO, the thing with the Alexa is that it requires more a certain orthodoxy. In other words, the presence of the Alexa here is mostly in the hand of cine guys while the Red with it's "similitudes" with MF cameras is the prefered used by photographers-videographers.
The fact is that the Alexa still intimidates.
Last time I saw it in action it was during a cine filming. 2 assistants just to prepare the cam, clean it, connect it and the camera operator was an old fox who spent his entire life in cine industry. The thing is Arri was already there and those guys still using the brand, they feel home. Also, the render right-out-the-box is closer to film than Red One (without using ArriRaw) and directors generally like very much its look.
Red is wilder, unpredictable and powerfull. The corporate image is almost brutal. Red is IMO what the new cine-video-photographers generation will use, it will be the reference. But...
The funny thing is that Canon is developing PL mount optics with 27.5mm image circle wich would fit the Alexa but not the Red Epic because of its wider sensor. It makes me wonder if Canon is not planning a super35mm camera.
It's also interesting to note that NUke 6 opens by default in super 35mm. It seems to me that there is a "tendency", or are there just tendencies?
In that Panorama, I'm not sure if the Red Epic is not a gear that will be in a sort of no-man's land because in a way it's out of everything else. In that sense I think bcooter had a good smell not get tempted by the sirens songs and stayed pragmatic. There are still a lot of uncertainties.
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Er, um..... Medium format stills photography anyone?
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Er, um..... Medium format stills photography anyone?
Met a few in my time, but mostly gone these oldtimers are, mate ;D
Edmund
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It's interesting, the comparaisons with MF because it seems that the same is happening in motion.
The situation is divided in 2 bands. Settled is the 2K HD and digital cinema seems to adopt definatly 4k.
On the "small sensors-cheap" we have the 5D, 7D, GH2...and the camcorders. Those are the 2Ks
On the big expensive artillery equivalent to MF is RED ONE (no surprise if some comments further up saw similitudes within politics) and ARRI.
It will not be surprising to see the same sort of "battles" we know in still.
Very soon we will see the 7D family guys arguying that the REDs are too big, heavy, expensive and slow and that they don't give any significant advantage for 2K but only if you print big (in thisa case cine) etc...
Then the proud muscles guys will strike-back with resolution and DR argument, that 4K downsampled to 2 gives better MQ (motion quality) and will feed the internet with Arri workshops or Red trips in Mozambique.
There will be a war between Avid and Premiere Pro, Mac vs pc, stills vs motion, 2K vs 4K, a complete mess.
Be preapared, it's on the street corner.
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It's interesting, the comparaisons with MF because it seems that the same is happening in motion.
The situation is divided in 2 bands. Settled is the 2K HD and digital cinema seems to adopt definatly 4k.
On the "small sensors-cheap" we have the 5D, 7D, GH2...and the camcorders. Those are the 2Ks
On the big expensive artillery equivalent to MF is RED ONE (no surprise if some comments further up saw similitudes within politics) and ARRI.
It will not be surprising to see the same sort of "battles" we know in still.
Very soon we will see the 7D family guys arguying that the REDs are too big, heavy, expensive and slow and that they don't give any significant advantage for 2K but only if you print big (in thisa case cine) etc...
Then the proud muscles guys will strike-back with resolution and DR argument, that 4K downsampled to 2 gives better MQ (motion quality) and will feed the internet with Arri workshops or Red trips in Mozambique.
There will be a war between Avid and Premiere Pro, Mac vs pc, stills vs motion, 2K vs 4K, a complete mess.
Be preapared, it's on the street corner.
A plague on all their houses :)
Edmund
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Heh... I'll be on the Red/Premier Pro/Resolve/Mac/Phase One/Arca corner with the mud piled up and ready to sling.
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Heh... I'll be on the Red/Premier Pro/Resolve/Mac/Phase One/Arca corner with the mud piled up and ready to sling.
Panasonic/Avid/Nuke/Windows/Canon/Zeiss corner...the light and fast mobility reserve, ready to launch a surprise strike.
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anyone saw the epic m?
http://www.red.com/system/products/datas/622/original/Epic_Rotation.jpg?1302542793
it do looks like a 645D or what.a film production friend told me the sensor of it will be small,definitely not MF.
i mean,if it is at least full frame i am think about throw my money in.thinking about you can use all the cine lens is awesome!
i will digress again here by another question.any friend here use a adapter to put a cine lens for still photography?how is the image?is there any different touch on the look?
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I've had a chance to play with the Epic as well as the Scarlet while at Red Studios. They are Damn seductive. I'd say the Epic is heavier than a Blad H series, but it is WAY lighter than my Red One. I've already got a set of Cooke Primes and the support gear, so the Epic-M is a fairly attractive package... The new camera, though the same MX sensor, is purported to have a nicer, cleaner image with greater DR due to better processing and throughput. I'm just looking forward to shooting up to 96fps with no drop in resolution. Fun stuff. I'm not giving up my Phase One or Arcas anytime soon, but with the forthcoming Red Canon mount I am definitely going to experiment with shooting the TS-E glass on Epic for stills.
I have a feeling I'm going to be selling my pile of strobe in the near future.
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I've had a chance to play with the Epic as well as the Scarlet while at Red Studios. They are Damn seductive. I'd say the Epic is heavier than a Blad H series, but it is WAY lighter than my Red One. I've already got a set of Cooke Primes and the support gear, so the Epic-M is a fairly attractive package... The new camera, though the same MX sensor, is purported to have a nicer, cleaner image with greater DR due to better processing and throughput. I'm just looking forward to shooting up to 96fps with no drop in resolution. Fun stuff. I'm not giving up my Phase One or Arcas anytime soon, but with the forthcoming Red Canon mount I am definitely going to experiment with shooting the TS-E glass on Epic for stills.
I have a feeling I'm going to be selling my pile of strobe in the near future.
Here's where the issue of one camera fits all falls down, expecially in regards to digital motion and stills
This is an approx. crop of medium format 645, 35mm 3:2, standard RED and most motion cameras 16:9 and the new Epic 2:1.
(http://ishotit.com/formats.jpg)
As you can see none of these fit any standard editing format except 16x9, unless your going to have your video viewed at the movie theatre.
Now as much as these ratios change imagine in the world of multimedia and vertical video/stills (yes this will happen) how a 2:1 ration will very much limit what is even a computer page size.
I think we're a long way off from a one camera solution.
IMO
BC
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Why you always be hasslin my buzz, James. LoL. Yeah I know, as much as I'd prefer not to have to lug 4 camera/lens cases around. The only magic bullet is your own vision.
As you know, none of the Red cameras are ratio specific. You set your ratio per project... You just have to give up some sensor to truncate the format. I do intend to test shooting the Epic with PC glass on a couple Still jobs, but I'm not eBaying my P65+ anytime soon.
CB
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I'm working now in 2048x1556, the funny story is that it is damn close to the micro4/3...I know I know...micro 4/3 it's consumer stuff but in terms of aspect ratio I find them much more interesting, the issue is that the sensor at its max motion reso is well...16:9
So 2K super 35 = micro4/3 = Contax 645 D, do you follow me?
What I don't really get is which lenses will fit the Epic's sensor? because Chris is talking about the Canon's released but the info I have (and it can be uncomplete) is that they are putting efforts (canon) in super 35.
Does it basically means that the Epic will be rarely used at its full 5K reso? it seems to me that it's the case.
Honestly, after the codecs, the ratio mess. When will we get out of that muddy soup once for awhile and get stable standarts?
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What I'm talking about is an Eos lens adapter. Jim and Ted both already have working ones and predicted release is September (grain of salt disclaimer). These have full electronic control with touchscreen operation. You can actually pull focus by just tapping two different parts of the image on the screen and inputting a duration in a pull-down menu. The big deal for me is being able to use my existing Canon glass or my primes. Of course all that glass easily covers 5k.
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Ah, ok. I thought you had those in mind because of the PL mount http://usa.canon.com/cusa/broadcast/products/broadcast_lenses/hd_ec_lenses (those would not be suitable for the Epic)
It might be really interesting to work with TS lens etc...
I've been following those adapters saga for awhile in RedUsers and users demands.
Well, if this electronic is as you say, we might see a lot of Epics, Canon glases, and 5xD as backups.
The problem with the PL mount is that prices have litterally explode in quick period and the cost of those lenses is clearly speculative for the moment. If Canon can supply the demand with large production it will be back to normality. The adapter way seems a very intersting option in that context.
Hey, I don't want to play at the cristal ball but it seems that Canon can bring again cost effective solution in the high-end. They are planning to be number one in motion as they did in still photography.
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What I'm talking about is an Eos lens adapter. Jim and Ted both already have working ones and predicted release is September (grain of salt disclaimer). These have full electronic control with touchscreen operation. You can actually pull focus by just tapping two different parts of the image on the screen and inputting a duration in a pull-down menu. The big deal for me is being able to use my existing Canon glass or my primes. Of course all that glass easily covers 5k.
CB,
You do love equipment man and though I dig RED remember you went to a RED seminar whose agenda was to inform but also keep the buzz going and sell. (Remind you of any other camera companies?)
I think all progress is good, have my doubts on touch screen and time focus.
Already the Sony FS100 will track focus well with the e-mount lenses and I'm sure someday we'll have programable, subject recognizable focus where the focus puller just taps on a subject and the lens adjusts at any time of sequence you wish.
Anyway, I dig the idea of the Epic, wish it had a larger 24x36 sensor so cropping was easier and to set the record straight for motion I like a 2:1 better than 16x9 which is more cinematic.
In typical RED style if the touch screen focus was available today, the bomb evf would probably still be backorder, so you'd be fighting the focus puller to see the screen.
Ahhh, RED, those funny people. They really do have the medium format secret handshake syndrome.
Problem is 90% of all video is 16x9 so since the epic is 2:1 somebody's gonna have to crop something.
We just added another RED and stripped it down for hand holding and it's very manageable. Not a 5d2, but not a Panaflex either.
I guess I dig equipment also, but refuse to ever beta test again, unless somebody else is writing the check.
IMO
BC
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oh mine...did anyone see how the answer change the question?
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...They really do have the medium format secret handshake syndrome...
BC
This one I want to have at a plate/tile on the wall :)
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What, me? A gear whore? Nooooooo.... I don't even have the latest digi-back... LoL. It's all in the Kool-Aid and it's nothin but trouble once you develop a taste for multiple flavors. Seminars are definitely marketing opportunities, but I think I may have instigated as many Profoto sales as P1 sales at PODAS. When people see how you can control all the heads from a laptop, there is magic in the air.
Weight... Funny thing is, I bet if I throw one of my Cookes on the Epic with my Mattebox and Follow Focus that it'll weigh the same as the stripped down R1 wth Nikon or Zeiss glass. What's a 5 lbs difference on a 25 lbs rig? The biggest advantage I can see with the Epic is the increased IQ I keep hearing about combined with HDRx... and the fact you can get the whole damn thing into a roll-a-board.
Beta testing? When I orchestrated the digital transition for the studio that must not be named, nobody amongst the dealers could offer a turnkey solution for shooting architecture, so I had to research every camera from every manufacturer and it had to replace a 4x5 with lenses from 65mm to 300mm. We did P45+s on Arca F Metrics... not a bad solution, but not as good as the current options. Shit's always changin. It's a pain in the ass being at the forefront, but I love problem solving.
I do dig the 2:1 format. Hell, one of my favorite personal series was shot with a 6x12 back and since I've started shooting motion I have a hard time finding vertical compositions anywhere anymore. Everything just WANTS to be cinematic.
I got the email that my Bomb order was ready to ship. I'd already had the Zacuto EVF for a month and so cancelled the Bomb... thinking one will come with the Epic anyway. On a recent shoot I was totally nailing focus with the ZVF... shooting at T2.9. I'm not talking architecture, I'm talking eyes, moving people with a 75mm that has about an inch and a half DOF on the closeups. Never thought I'd want more than an LCD to work with, but the ugly damn Zacuto just works.
I think most of us love the gear... you'll never give up that damn Contax will you? I so wanted one of those back in the day... ;)
I'm entering random tangential mode. Time to wash off the chlorine and hit the bar.
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I'm not arguing equipment, but back to the original thought of this thread, Phase One Questions, I would like to see it named large expenditure questions.
Of course this is all artist/business model relative, but given that you are going to buy a new camera and your a professional image maker, where would you place your resources?
On a $50,000 still camera or a $50,000 motion camera?
Now the epic at least today is much more than 50 large and it is a work in progress and regardless, until it's cooked I'm going to wait. I just won't beta test anything that has do with cameras.
For my business model owning two RED ONEs has more than paid for themselves, including a $25,000 Digital station for the RED and not paid for itself just in just covering the costs, but paid for itself in being awarded larger more complex projects.
The epic 2:1 format is good but still doesn't match 99.9% of the format most people edit to and if the Epic is really a digital stills motion camera, the sensor really should be 4:3 at 5k with cropping to any format.
This gives you better still options and motion formats.
BTW: Just a note for future motion image producers, the RED workflow, is actually faster than any motion workflow we've used, because once we've processed and color the dailies, we can go straight to work editing.
The little Canon Fs100 we bought still requires unwrapping the AVCHD format to h264, then batch processing the files to prorezz, before any coloration is done, so the Sony is a three part process to get ready to color, the RED one process and with our DIT station it is fast.
We've usually produced dailies by the end of the day's shoot.
But I admit I'm sorry I changed the thought of this thread as I'm sure still cameras are very important to people, it's just in my business model, comparing what I need to go forward, new still cameras are a little further down the list.
Also BTW: Our second RED One, we've stripped down for hand holding with still zeiss lenses, and the battery mounted on the belt. It's about 10 pounds, not 23 and more than manageable.
IMO
BC
What, me? A gear whore? Nooooooo.... I don't even have the latest digi-back... LoL. It's all in the Kool-Aid and it's nothin but trouble once you develop a taste for multiple flavors. Seminars are definitely marketing opportunities, but I think I may have instigated as many Profoto sales as P1 sales at PODAS. When people see how you can control all the heads from a laptop, there is magic in the air.
Weight... Funny thing is, I bet if I throw one of my Cookes on the Epic with my Mattebox and Follow Focus that it'll weigh the same as the stripped down R1 wth Nikon or Zeiss glass. What's a 5 lbs difference on a 25 lbs rig? The biggest advantage I can see with the Epic is the increased IQ I keep hearing about combined with HDRx... and the fact you can get the whole damn thing into a roll-a-board.
Beta testing? When I orchestrated the digital transition for the studio that must not be named, nobody amongst the dealers could offer a turnkey solution for shooting architecture, so I had to research every camera from every manufacturer and it had to replace a 4x5 with lenses from 65mm to 300mm. We did P45+s on Arca F Metrics... not a bad solution, but not as good as the current options. Shit's always changin. It's a pain in the ass being at the forefront, but I love problem solving.
I do dig the 2:1 format. Hell, one of my favorite personal series was shot with a 6x12 back and since I've started shooting motion I have a hard time finding vertical compositions anywhere anymore. Everything just WANTS to be cinematic.
I got the email that my Bomb order was ready to ship. I'd already had the Zacuto EVF for a month and so cancelled the Bomb... thinking one will come with the Epic anyway. On a recent shoot I was totally nailing focus with the ZVF... shooting at T2.9. I'm not talking architecture, I'm talking eyes, moving people with a 75mm that has about an inch and a half DOF on the closeups. Never thought I'd want more than an LCD to work with, but the ugly damn Zacuto just works.
I think most of us love the gear... you'll never give up that damn Contax will you? I so wanted one of those back in the day... ;)
I'm entering random tangential mode. Time to wash off the chlorine and hit the bar.
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The epic 2:1 format is good but still doesn't match 99.9% of the format most people edit to and if the Epic is really a digital stills motion camera, the sensor really should be 4:3 at 5k with cropping to any format.
My thoughts too.
BTW: Just a note for future motion image producers, the RED workflow, is actually faster than any motion workflow we've used, because once we've processed and color the dailies, we can go straight to work editing.
Indeed. Although I don't own a RED, I've been asking for some footage to be able to start to get familiar with Red workflow and not be taken by surprise. It is way faster than I thought and certainly faster than AVCHD sort of stuff.
Even in Avid editing and grading in real time the original native raw is more stable and faster (and do not slow down) while with AVCHD I have to convert because it's hell. (in fact I'm using Edius 6 to import AVCHD and batch transcode for Avid wich is the fastest and more cool I found).
the RED workflow is really good and considering that those are Raw it is damn good.
About the Epic, I would wait to see the tendencies. This sensor's format is not versatile enough IMO, but on the other hand for someone like Chris who is doing arquitecture it might be very interesting.
About MF, their lack of plans in the motion world really surprises me. I would have thought that this was a niche where they could enter like wolfs but it seems that (or at least we don't know their plans) they bet on the orthodoxy. I'm not talking about using a MF camera for video, I'm thinking about a RED sort of product but made by Phase or Hasselblad.
And after all, why not Hassy lenses motion line? even if they don't want or can't developp bodies? Zeiss does it, Canon does it. I don't get it.
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Who said they are already not working on such products. We need to remember these are 2 or 3 year development plans to get these kinds of items to market. Phase is pretty aggressive in making new product as we have seen lately. They know very well motion is the next step . Personally I believe this stuff is already in the works. That is not inside info either just logical movement for a company that is in business to make money and progress forward. Lots of stuff coming already new body, new lenses and these new IQ backs. No reason to believe it all stops here either. Obviously we will have to see what is next and also how the field of photography demands motion going forward too. There is no point in making anything if there is no market. So as shooters if the industry is changing more to motion and by large numbers than any good OEM is certainly going to look at it as a market for them as well. Fingers crossed for sure but I am sure this stuff is on the radar.
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Who said they are already not working on such products. We need to remember these are 2 or 3 year development plans to get these kinds of items to market. Phase is pretty aggressive in making new product as we have seen lately. They know very well motion is the next step . Personally I believe this stuff is already in the works. That is not inside info either just logical movement for a company that is in business to make money and progress forward. Lots of stuff coming already new body, new lenses and these new IQ backs. No reason to believe it all stops here either. Obviously we will have to see what is next and also how the field of photography demands motion going forward too. There is no point in making anything if there is no market. So as shooters if the industry is changing more to motion and by large numbers than any good OEM is certainly going to look at it as a market for them as well. Fingers crossed for sure but I am sure this stuff is on the radar.
Yeah, but why don't they "unofficialy" give some glimpse just to keep the buzz and keep people switching motion sort of warm instead of never knowing the next plans. It could be done by "rumors" so they are free of obligations. At least something that make us smell that they want to be on that race and that they will not join the party in 2050.
Instead of that, there is more secrecy than the KGB bureau and that can cost potential clients to give-up and get involved into other brands and that's very difficult to recuperate. I sometimes don't get the marketing strategies.
Oh and yes, I forget, with prices on par with the Red cameras.
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There lies the divergence in our motivations. Aside from being a hell of a photographer, you are a good businessman and make decisions based upon what's good for the bottom line. While my Red has also paid for itself, the other 70k I've spent hasn't. I assume it will eventually, but I don't really care. I'm beginning to make little Indie Art Films that are going to have Zero ROI but are immense fun and open my mind to entirely new possibilities. I do suspect (or hope) they'll cause my career to blossom in an unexpected direction... :) Basically my commercial work is financing personal work and while it eats heavily into profits, it's good for the soul and I've always felt that any strengthening of personal vision can only benefit the commercial vision... which eventually grows the bottom line.
While the Epic is not a finished product, it's good enough for many major motion pictures to be rolling with right now and the changes that come will all be via firmware. It does have HDRx working, which could be invaluable for interiors shooting. Oh! And don't forget 5 second versus 90 second boot time! Where James' workflow is more aggressive and fast paced, mine is relaxed enough that hiccups go unnoticed and I have time to tinker, so yeah, this camera may work better for me, for now.
Ok.... this is where I integrate the OT digression into Torchaim's original question and bring the thread full circle. Phase began as a much more open system and has only become more closed as some manufacturers have dropped away and others have closed their camera systems (all stated earlier). It remains open to the older camera bodies (nice that they still produce those mounts) and continues to be the more viable platform for tech/view camera shooting. So, still the most open. AND I have a hunch that you are going to see video capable, CMOS sensors from them which will allow their current customers huge flexibility. Right now you can drop from 80mp to 20mp via Sensor+ to gain sensitivity. If I could drop down from the 10k res still image to a 2.5k motion image to capture additional assets without changing anything on the camera I would wet my pants. The only down side to this notion is the relative slowness of MF lenses... while f/8 is awesome for stills, having to shoot motion at f/4 or 5.6 is kind of a drag.
Now... I need more coffee.
CB
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There lies the divergence in our motivations. Aside from being a hell of a photographer, you are a good businessman and make decisions based upon what's good for the bottom line. While my Red has also paid for itself, the other 70k I've spent hasn't. I assume it will eventually, but I don't really care. I'm beginning to make little Indie Art Films that are going to have Zero ROI but are immense fun and open my mind to entirely new possibilities. I do suspect (or hope) they'll cause my career to blossom in an unexpected direction... :) Basically my commercial work is financing personal work and while it eats heavily into profits, it's good for the soul and I've always felt that any strengthening of personal vision can only benefit the commercial vision... which eventually grows the bottom line.
While the Epic is not a finished product, it's good enough for many major motion pictures to be rolling with right now and the changes that come will all be via firmware. It does have HDRx working, which could be invaluable for interiors shooting. Where James' workflow is more aggressive and fast paced, mine is relaxed enough that hiccups go unnoticed and I have time to tinker, so yeah, this camera may work better for me, for now.
Ok.... this is where I integrate the OT digression into Torchaim's original question and bring the thread full circle. Phase began as a much more open system and has only become more closed as some manufacturers have dropped away and others have closed their camera systems (all stated earlier). It remains open to the older camera bodies (nice that they still produce those mounts) and continues to be the more viable platform for tech/view camera shooting. So, still the most open. AND I have a hunch that you are going to see video capable, CMOS sensors from them which will allow their current customers huge flexibility. Right now you can drop from 80mp to 20mp via Sensor+ to gain sensitivity. If I could drop down from the 10k res still image to a 2.5k motion image to capture additional assets without changing anything on the camera I would wet my pants. The only down side to this notion is the relative slowness of MF lenses... while f/8 is awesome for stills, having to shoot motion at f/4 or 5.6 is kind of a drag.
Now... I need more coffee.
CB
Chris, there is something I don't get. You shoot with the P65 plus and I imagine your clients in arquitecture are seeing it (not like editos where nobody cares).
Saying that you'll be happy with the reso you are talking about for stills within a single camera package still-motion that could be the Epic style and talking about coffee, I almost dropped mine on the screen when I read your lines. I thought "what is happening to Chris?"
Have I read or understood your lines well?
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LoL...
To clarify... what I was talking about would be something like a CMOS IQ180. I don't believe that the Epic will replace my still camera. It's a totally different work flow, no tethering, no zooming into 100% to check focus and propping, you just extract stills later (until they enable stills mode via firmware). Also, I just don't enjoy trying to compose on PC lenses (single axis) versus tech cameras (dual axis).
The IQ180 is a 10k back (meaning the width of the image is about 10,000 pixels) at Sensor Plus it's about 2.5k I was putting that all in Cine terms, which is a little confusing.... MegaPixels vesus Image Width So, yeah, 10k images are totally acceptable... the 5d2 is what... 5.5k?
Am I making sense?
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Yes, totally. I think that we are a lot who would like that.
But I'm wondering about the shallow D.O.F because it's gona be very critical in motion if they use MF size sensors in let's say a P65 remake.
Oh well, that's what engineers are paied for after all.
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In imagery for commerce I am firmly convinced that no one knows exactly where popular media is going.
Motion that freezes, stills that move or a combination of the two.
If I had to place a bet I'd say it will be both and from my view photographers/image makers will be called on to produced multi media.
Right now everything is in flux, the western world's economy reflects that and with all the talk that goes on, the only thing that really matters is what you know and what you can do with it.
Creative, interesting and professionally produced imagery will usually gain more attention than the standard flicker or stock photo.
I'm not saying that it takes a RED or Arri or Phase or Hasselblad to produce outstanding imagery, but I do know that all camera companies have to move forward faster, because consumer electronics move at such a fast pace, if professional equipment doesn't keep up and innovate it wouldn't surprise me to see 2 lb. cameras on a set with 10,000 lbs of grip and lighting. In fact that is happening today.
I like CB's take because he is always moving forward and will be ready when a client asks "can you shoot a __________ for ________ and for _________.
I like the fact that Fred challenges the base story line that goes on in this forum. If some says "I understand so and so is making a new camera" Fred immediately says when, where, how much?
That's all anyone cares about when they plan to buy.
CB mentioned I'm attached to my Contax and medium format backs and though I like them and don't use them often, I keep them more as a business decision than any emotional attachment, because they're paid for, their resolution (though 3 generations old) is still greater than any of my clients are asking for and I have a feeling that sometime in the near future somebody is going to need a 7k still file that will construct and deconstruct at the touch of an ipad screen, so I keep them.
A month ago I was at a long term client's offices and we went to one building that has what is best described as a "brand experience". In this room were translucent stills, flashing lcd's, large printed banners, brochures, paper displays, etc.
A lot of the imagery I produced was shot with everything from my Contax to Canons to Leicas. Some of the motion imagery was shot with 2 version old hdv cameras and it made me think that if those large banners were lcd's the still imagery would be moving, if the motion cameras had more resolution some of the motion sessions would have been used as stills.
From a client's standpoint all they want is creative imagery that covers as much territory as possible.
They really don't care what I use to get there, if the camera shoots 10k or 2k, if the color space is rgb or cmyk. All clients care about is can I deliver imagery that is usable in all formats and has greater return.
This forum like most, talks about what is specific to the forum section and in this case many talk about medium format like it's some kind of holy grail where a camera's sensor must be a certain size to be viable.
Other's come on to prove other smaller cameras are just as good.
In my view neither matters.
As an artist and business person, all I care about is equipment that doesn't limit me.
IMO
BC
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I’m afraid that all this talk of artists, convergence and $50,000 cameras has me pining for a chunk of chalk and a cave wall.
As long as the chunk of chalk and the cave aren't made from the same colour of chalk... you thought they had it easy in the old Grotte de Lascaux maybe 35,000 years ago? I wonder what they'd have used in Cheddar - the Man in the Moon would have been able to help them.
;-)
Rob C
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Fred
To be fair, it’s not motion that makes me want to pick up that chunk of chalk, it’s the endless discussion about process – still, motion, convergence, whatever - that at times makes me long for that cave.
I’m just a simple soul, hanging in there, hoping someone will perfect blink capture.
To be fair, this is an equipment forum, this is my problem and I’m at fault here.
I think my post was not fully appropriate so I deleted it.
Well, I don't think you are at fault here at all and I'm sorry you feel so. I've been discovered your work that I truly appreciate in both the approach and the final result, in Lu-La. I visit your site regularly to see if there is an update and your refined and beautifull images have questioned me and delighted more than once, specially the nature ones. There are among the very few nature images (because I respond to human in images) that I've been connected to. If there where just landscapes I would have died of boredom, but they are not just landscapes. I'm aware what's involved artistically behind.
But as you know keith, the less expectation we have in the creative process, the better things go right and I'm not far from thinking that it could be a life's rule.
After all, we also have the power to orientate or create contents in what we think are missing.
But in the end, gear, engineering, processes, talent, art...it's all contained in one and a same thing.
As for soul, we all are, and at the same time we all have to go to the lu and will all die. Nothing is really serious (in our image world) nor last. We are just playing with photons. I don't know if we all are simple souls but I know this: we all are the same, like water molecules in the ocean.
So my bottom line is all we can share is what we actually, as "individuals", do and experience and yours has also a lot of value, regardless of what surrownds you. Ultimately, the experience is always a matter of choice. How boring would be a world with one color, with just one palette, one musical note etc... Same here.
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I see that we share common lectures.
MT is a photographer I've been following for ages.
Cheers.
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During film, Hasselblad, Mamiya, Contax could care less if they got a piece of the film sales or processing action.
Quite puzzled: what does “could care less” mean?
???
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that should read "could not care less" meaning they didn't care at all, so they couldn't possibly care less than they did.
ie "Did you hear J Lo and Marc Anthony were getting divorced?!!!"
"I couldn't care less."
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that should read "could not care less" meaning they didn't care at all, so they couldn't possibly care less than they did.
ie "Did you hear J Lo and Marc Anthony were getting divorced?!!!"
"I couldn't care less."
Well, that’s how it’s done Down Under! ;D
But should it be id est or exemplia gratia? ;)
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nice... "e g" would be correct... i e my clarification was sullied with it's own misusage.
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...it's more easy to understand the Nuke user's manual than you guys...
I need more english training. Any lonely and horny (not too tall) girlfriend to present me?
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Training englese?!
Erik
...it's more easy to understand the Nuke user's manual than you guys...
I need more english training. Any lonely and horny (not too tall) girlfriend to present me?
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Training englese?!
Erik
Remember that we french, have the same word for lenguage and tongue...la langue.
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Grammar is boring. Here's something from a recent shoot...
(http://christopherbarrett.net/110404_023.jpg)
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CBarrett. Bloody great picture. My compliments!
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Very nice indeed.
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Inspired by M.C.Escher?
That is pure quality. Thanks for sharing/inspiring.