Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: jduncan on May 19, 2011, 05:19:26 pm
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I was reading "Phase One IQ180 in The Field" article and this comment capture my eye:
"Will anyone else have an 80MP or larger sensor soon? One can't say for sure, but Kodak has opted out of the next generation MF sensor game, and this sensor design was co-developed between Phase and Dalsa, so don't expect to see it turning up anywhere else."
Enfasis is mine.
This appear to imply that Hasselblad, Leica and Pentax are in a practical dead end, at last until the market has a new entrant.
I was aware of this:
http://image-sensors-world.blogspot.com/2011/04/omnivision-acquires-850-kodak-patents.html
But it seem to be more about CMOS sensors.
It will be a funny time for them to go out as with the Pentax there appears to be a big market unraveling for medium format, or so, sensors. Maybe is not big enough to cover the expenses.
Dalsa do have the advantage of habbing the support of the Canadian government and since January Teledyne.
Maybe I am reading to much into a casual statement but I know Michael have deep inside into the state of the digital medium format universe.
Best regards,
James.
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This appear to imply that Hasselblad, Leica and Pentax are in a practical dead end, at last until the market has a new entrant.
Even if Kodak stopped production, why do you assume other brands won't be able to use Dalsa sensors? Some back makers have already used sensors from both. This specific 80MP sensor might be available only to Phase/Leaf, or perhaps for a limited time, but nothing is stopping Dalsa from producing other sensors to meet demand.
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Even if Kodak stopped production, why do you assume other brands won't be able to use Dalsa sensors? Some back makers have already used sensors from both. This specific 80MP sensor might be available only to Phase/Leaf, or perhaps for a limited time, but nothing is stopping Dalsa from producing other sensors to meet demand.
To clarify:
1. I don't believe the article says they stop production, but development of next generation sensors. I am not sure if this interpretation of mine is accurate. Does someone has an inside?
2. Each new sensor Dalsa has develop in the past two generations have been linked to Phase One. Eventually in the case of the 60mpixels sensor, it went to the H4D-60 too. Michael appears to imply that this time that not be the case.
As you said Dalsa could have two big sensor design teams and create a chip for the rest of the market (meaning Hasselblad and Sinar?). If so It will be interesting to see how they handle IP issues.
Thanks for taking the time to reply.
James
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Even if Kodak stopped production, why do you assume other brands won't be able to use Dalsa sensors? Some back makers have already used sensors from both. This specific 80MP sensor might be available only to Phase/Leaf, or perhaps for a limited time, but nothing is stopping Dalsa from producing other sensors to meet demand.
I think it would be easy to understate the amount of work that goes into catering a camera to a specific sensor and how hard it is to adapt to a new manufacturer. It's not like switching from Seagate to Western Digital hard drives. It's not "plug and play".
Phase was able to do it with relative speed and good results because their R+D department had already been building around Dalsa sensors as a safe-guard (similar to Apple building Intel-compatible versions of their OS long before they decided they had to switch from Power PC) and because they had engineers already familiar with Dalsa designs. Leaf of course has a very long history of Dalsa designs. Hasselblad took longer to make that transition (H4D-60), and others (Leica/Pentax) may also have difficulties, in making a transitions to Dalsa IF that is what is coming (I have no more info on the future of Kodak sensors than public record, and this thread seems, to me, to be much more speculation than anything meaningful). I have zero doubt those companies are more than capable of doing so - but how quickly and how much it takes away from other areas of development would be open questions.
I would be (personally) saddened if Kodak got out of the business of developing new sensor designs. Competition (vs. Dalsa) is good for everyone.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) ([email protected])
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
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A sad reminder of the truth in Doug's words is the Sigma SD1 debacle and the cost associated with developing a new (but very small in area) sensor compared with MF sizes.
Radu
I think it would be easy to understate the amount of work that goes into catering a camera to a specific sensor and how hard it is to adapt to a new manufacturer. It's not like switching from Seagate to Western Digital hard drives. It's not "plug and play".
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) ([email protected])
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/") | RSS Feed (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
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"Will anyone else have an 80MP or larger sensor soon? One can't say for sure, but Kodak has opted out of the next generation MF sensor game, and this sensor design was co-developed between Phase and Dalsa, so don't expect to see it turning up anywhere else."
Ok, so Kodak do not have it now... Who knows what they might be up to? So, they supply to Hasselblad, Leica and Pentax... perhaps they not wanted 80MP (yet)?? So...?
(Above said I still stick to Leaf ;) )
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I don't know have much more information than I hinted at in the review.
According to those in the know, Kodak does not seem interested in the development of new MF sensors. This may have to do with Kodak overall being in deep doo doo financially and the sensor division subsequently assuming a defensive posture.
I know that folks in Rochester read this site, and if anyone there would like to shed some light on the matter it would be more than welcome.
Michael
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It would be too bad were it true. IMHO Kodak produced some of the best sensors.
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Once the competion is out of a business bad things are going to happen ...
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I love the skin tones out of my H4D 40 which uses a Kodak sensor. I certainly prefer it to my Canon 5D II files.
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A sad reminder of the truth in Doug's words is the Sigma SD1 debacle and the cost associated with developing a new (but very small in area) sensor compared with MF sizes.
Radu
I don't think the Sigma is a debacle. Sigma have the problem of establishing themselves as a camera maker without aggravating Canon or Nikon, and a good way is to develop the Foveon IP and then license it out themselves.
Edmund
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I personally can put a bet on that Hasselblad and the rest of the MF camera makers are not in a dead end just because they have not ordered the Dalsa 80MP sensor. I am not 100% convinced that more megapixels is what we need. I would prefer more dynamic range and higher ISO instead of more megapixels. There is a limitation how much information you can get out of a limited surface. I think we are pretty close to that limit. Just check the 35mm cameras. A 25MP is not adding any more resolution than a 16 MP. The optics make the limitation. It must be the same with MF. For more resolution you simply need a larger sensor. Same logics as with film.
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I agree with Hassyman. I don't shoot MF digital but MF film. I do shoot Canon digital and it's honestly annoying how the MP race is so alive and well. I'd much rather have 16mp in 35 format that are high quality pixels. Not the crap you get with the current 5D2. Quality over quantity.
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Well ... Canon debuted 300mm and 120MP CMOS sensors at Canon Expo recently. Digital 10x8 anyone? (300mm ~ 12")
Also, the 120MP CMOS sensor seems to confirm the long-discussed potential direction for future MFDB's: i.e. increased resolution with video capabilities and truly useable LiveView.
http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/static/Five-Emerging-Techno-2726.shtml (scroll down to #4)
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I don't think the Sigma is a debacle. Sigma have the problem of establishing themselves as a camera maker without aggravating Canon or Nikon, and a good way is to develop the Foveon IP and then license it out themselves.
Edmund
When I said "debacle" I meant specifically the announced 10K price vs. the many times hinted Canon 7D like price. As the second part of your assertion Sigma is the only third party lens maker that doesn't pay royalties but reverse engineers the mounts hence Canon and Nikon have much stronger reasons to be aggravated than a new camera.
Radu
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I agree with Hassyman. I don't shoot MF digital but MF film. I do shoot Canon digital and it's honestly annoying how the MP race is so alive and well. I'd much rather have 16mp in 35 format that are high quality pixels. Not the crap you get with the current 5D2. Quality over quantity.
You can have high quality in a small pixel model. The 5DII is not a good standard to judge from. The Canon sensor is severely limited by read noise, unlike the new generation Sony CMOS (as in D7000/K-5). The clean read electronics of the Sony designs have negligible read noise and give a strong advantage to high pixel-counts in this generation. A good CMOS sensor in medium format would be something to see.
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Yes, and hopefully a lot cheaper. I would like to see more effort spent on making MF more affordable than these extreme high end backs who hardly anyone can afford. At least very few photographers.
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I'm not so sure about this. A big reason MF digital has gotten so big is because they've come down in price. If that starts to reverse they'll be doing the market and themselves quite a big disservice.
Once the competion is out of a business bad things are going to happen ...
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Pentax without any doubt will have soon (like 2012 soon) a CMOS MF camera with a Japanese sensor. The question in my mind is whether they will also use a Kodak sensor (maybe even the current or a slightly modified 40Mp) in an even less expensive than 645D camera or go for two sizes of the same pixel pitch CMOS sensor? With one or two new cameras plus a total of three new lenses built for digital and a lot of older FA 645 in production the 2012 will be an interesting year to witness.
Radu
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Pentax without any doubt will have soon (like 2012 soon) a CMOS MF camera with a Japanese sensor. The question in my mind is whether they will also use a Kodak sensor (maybe even the current or a slightly modified 40Mp) in an even less expensive than 645D camera or go for two sizes of the same pixel pitch CMOS sensor? With one or two new cameras plus a total of three new lenses built for digital and a lot of older FA 645 in production the 2012 will be an interesting year to witness.
I love comments about the future which include the phrase "without any doubt".
Especially about when you remember the 645D was "unveiled" at PIE2005 (http://www.jafaphotography.com/pentax_645digital.htm) and shipped in late 2010.
My industry read (an informed guess and not much more) is that CMOS medium format is still more than 2 years from being in people's hands. Unless you have specific knowledge you want to share...
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) ([email protected])
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/") | RSS Feed (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
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Everybody finds humor in little bits and pieces I guess, Doug, for example I am most amused about that "645 was announced in 2005 and launched in 2010" part like it was the same camera 5 years in the making (a very common thing over the net, btw). No specific knowledge I am afraid only that I know a lot about Pentax and how they operated in the past. Typically a higher end Pentax camera is active in fabrication about 18 months or less and of course this only applied to APS-C cameras in the past but I don't see them waiting over 2 years to announce a new MF camera.
The problem with 645D is that most of its internals were almost end of life when it was launched. The Pentax Prime 2 processor is a Fujitsu Milbeaut part (which Fujitsu just upgraded) and the controllers for SDXC high speeds weren't available. Both of these parts will be available in H2 of this year and will mean much faster speeds and responsiveness for the camera and/or the ability to work with larger files. The camera body has space for a larger sensor and a larger prism and both new lenses work on full 645 film size so clearly Pentax aims for a larger sensor in the future. They need just another sensor package.
So Pentax IMO has three choices:
- Waits for a new CMOS sensor done for any customer by a semiconductor company thus pushing the new camera and risking delays;
- Uses a larger sized CCD with the new processor and fast SDXC speeds but in the process locks another cycle of 2+ years interval when the new 35mm cameras will appear;
- Keeps the current sensor, makes the camera much faster and responsive by replacing the electronics inside and they can launch it even in late 2011 or early 2012 and reduce the price even further. This will only aggravate people who are just buying the 645D now and cement the opinion of a "poor man's MF system" which is in total contradiction with their expensive and ambitious 25mm lens and I consider it very unlikely.
So my guess is that since they are able to order large quantities they already have a deal with a Japanese company to make them exclusively at very least a 44x33 mm CMOS and have two big shows in 2012 to showcase it (early the big Japanese show of the year - this year was named CP+) and in September or so Photokina. And I also guess that Pentax will have more than one MF cameras (44x33 mm and larger sensor).
Sorry for my English I am not sure I make much sense also here is 2 AM and I am quite tired.
Regards,
Radu
I love comments about the future which include the phrase "without any doubt".
Especially about when you remember the 645D was "unveiled" at PIE2005 (http://www.jafaphotography.com/pentax_645digital.htm) and shipped in late 2010.
My industry read (an informed guess and not much more) is that CMOS medium format is still more than 2 years from being in people's hands. Unless you have specific knowledge you want to share...
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) ([email protected])
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/") | RSS Feed (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
-
Everybody finds humor in little bits and pieces I guess, Doug, for example I am most amused about that "645 was announced in 2005 and launched in 2010" part like it was the same camera 5 years in the making (a very common thing over the net, btw). No specific knowledge I am afraid only that I know a lot about Pentax and how they operated in the past. Typically a higher end Pentax camera is active in fabrication about 18 months or less and of course this only applied to APS-C cameras in the past but I don't see them waiting over 2 years to announce a new MF camera.
The problem with 645D is that most of its internals were almost end of life when it was launched. The Pentax Prime 2 processor is a Fujitsu Milbeaut part (which Fujitsu just upgraded) and the controllers for SDXC high speeds weren't available. Both of these parts will be available in H2 of this year and will mean much faster speeds and responsiveness for the camera and/or the ability to work with larger files. The camera body has space for a larger sensor and a larger prism and both new lenses work on full 645 film size so clearly Pentax aims for a larger sensor in the future. They need just another sensor package.
So Pentax IMO has three choices:
- Waits for a new CMOS sensor done for any customer by a semiconductor company thus pushing the new camera and risking delays;
- Uses a larger sized CCD with the new processor and fast SDXC speeds but in the process locks another cycle of 2+ years interval when the new 35mm cameras will appear;
- Keeps the current sensor, makes the camera much faster and responsive by replacing the electronics inside and they can launch it even in late 2011 or early 2012 and reduce the price even further. This will only aggravate people who are just buying the 645D now and cement the opinion of a "poor man's MF system" which is in total contradiction with their expensive and ambitious 25mm lens and I consider it very unlikely.
So my guess is that since they are able to order large quantities they already have a deal with a Japanese company to make them exclusively at very least a 44x33 mm CMOS and have two big shows in 2012 to showcase it (early the big Japanese show of the year - this year was named CP+) and in September or so Photokina. And I also guess that Pentax will have more than one MF cameras (44x33 mm and larger sensor).
Sorry for my English I am not sure I make much sense also here is 2 AM and I am quite tired.
Yeah, my words were a bit harsh. Given the language barriers and your excellent postulations above, I'm sure your use of "no doubt" phrasing could have been just as easily read as "it seems very likely to me that".
I disagree with much of your analysis but it is clearly well thought out and reasonable. My guess is they will introduce another big-brother model next year with improved electronics and a larger sensor but that it will be from an existing manufacturer, a CCD, and likely one of the designs already on the market; in other words, boring from a tech-news perspective but with proven high quality and with few hidden issues that could delay development or otherwise hold back release. Maybe they will add tethering (outside of their current target market but a way - though harder than it sounds to implement well - to open up an entire new market). They will also have to tackle the issue of multi-point AF on a larger sensor to maintain that as one of their unique selling points. Currently their AF points are relatively stuffed to the middle on the 1.3 crop sensor. On a full frame their current AF points look very centered.
Just some fun predicting. Sorry if my words earlier were a bit edgy.
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Having spoken several times with Pentax, I know that they consider the lack of live view on the 645D as one of its main current limitations.
My personal guess would be that the next version of the 645D will be released when they have a working 60 megapixel CMOS with a size 20% larger than the current 645D CCD. I have no idea when such a thing could happen (not before summer 2012 would be my guess) nor at what price point, but I would be surprised if the price went up much.
But this is again just a guess. :)
Cheers,
Bernard
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Yeah, my words were a bit harsh. Given the language barriers and your excellent postulations above, I'm sure your use of "no doubt" phrasing could have been just as easily read as "it seems very likely to me that".
I disagree with much of your analysis but it is clearly well thought out and reasonable. My guess is they will introduce another big-brother model next year with improved electronics and a larger sensor but that it will be from an existing manufacturer, a CCD, and likely one of the designs already on the market; in other words, boring from a tech-news perspective but with proven high quality and with few hidden issues that could delay development or otherwise hold back release. Maybe they will add tethering (outside of their current target market but a way - though harder than it sounds to implement well - to open up an entire new market). They will also have to tackle the issue of multi-point AF on a larger sensor to maintain that as one of their unique selling points. Currently their AF points are relatively stuffed to the middle on the 1.3 crop sensor. On a full frame their current AF points look very centered.
Just some fun predicting. Sorry if my words earlier were a bit edgy.
No reason for apologies really, I found nothing even remotely offensive!
The main differences between Pentax and the more established MF companies are IMO two:
1) I suspect that at least Phase One aims directly for a very large CMOS sensor whilst IMO Pentax will do in the first stage with a 44x33 mm one and move up as the yields improve, that could buy them time.
2) Pentax is a major client of Sony's sensor business and in general Hoya has a lot of influence in the high tech electronics of Japan. In general I believe that besides Sony there are at least a few other Japanese companies (Toshiba comes to mind) that can design and manufacture such a sensor and the only problem is that a reasonable production number makes the unit price not too expensive.
Speaking about the tethering software apparently it is coming soon.
http://www.pentax.jp/english/products/645d/feature_6.html
(although the translation is quite wrong).
Best regards,
Radu
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You can have high quality in a small pixel model. The 5DII is not a good standard to judge from. The Canon sensor is severely limited by read noise, unlike the new generation Sony CMOS (as in D7000/K-5). The clean read electronics of the Sony designs have negligible read noise and give a strong advantage to high pixel-counts in this generation. A good CMOS sensor in medium format would be something to see.
It's true that the chip's noise performance is improving but that's only part of the problem. Photon noise and limited DR become more of an issue with smaller photosites.
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Naive question: All the large sensors are stitched. What would be involved in taking a pair of FF CMOS sensors and stitching them to something of order MF size? Is this impossible/impractical?
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All the large sensors are stitched.
What do you mean by this?
-h
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Naive question: All the large sensors are stitched. What would be involved in taking a pair of FF CMOS sensors and stitching them to something of order MF size? Is this impossible/impractical?
The stitching happens on one piece of silicon. It is not a matter of physically joining two pieces of silicon together. Therefore you need equipment which can handle large pieces of silicon. Afaik, this is the main limitation.
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Naive question: All the large sensors are stitched. What would be involved in taking a pair of FF CMOS sensors and stitching them to something of order MF size? Is this impossible/impractical?
AFAIK, none of the sensors used in professional photography are stitched. Some are made using a stepper during the exposure of the silicon but they are not madd by glueing/ welding smaller sensors.
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OK thanks.
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AFAIK, none of the sensors used in professional photography are stitched. Some are made using a stepper during the exposure of the silicon but they are not madd by glueing/ welding smaller sensors.
Huh- that's weird - I just assumed that when looking at this shot from my AFi-ii-12 back (with extreme exposure and curves lift in post) that what I am looking at is 4 pieces put together. And to be perfectly honest, I'm not sure this is normal.
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Naive question: All the large sensors are stitched. What would be involved in taking a pair of FF CMOS sensors and stitching them to something of order MF size? Is this impossible/impractical?
Emil "stitching" exists for CMOS process as well, for example = http://ericfossum.com/Publications/Papers/A%2076x77mm%2016.86%20million%20pixel%20CMOS%20APS%20image%20sensor.pdf
that is how FF CMOS sensors are done, so if there will be a market/buyer for larger CMOS sensors that can pay off the tooling they can "stitch" some more pieces...
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Huh- that's weird - I just assumed that when looking at this shot from my AFi-ii-12 back (with extreme exposure and curves lift in post) that what I am looking at is 4 pieces put together. And to be perfectly honest, I'm not sure this is normal.
It is basically 4 sensors etched next to each other. The 4 'patches' have different amount of gain, it seems, but it should be matched so the stitches become invisible. How extreme was the curve? Can you notice a seam under normal conditions?
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It is basically 4 sensors etched next to each other. The 4 'patches' have different amount of gain, it seems, but it should be matched so the stitches become invisible. How extreme was the curve? Can you notice a seam under normal conditions?
At ISO 50, I really haven't noticed it, however I have seen it in properly exposed ISO 400 images though I'm not certain everyone would pick it out. Here's a 50% crop of such an image with the line coming down vertically - you'll see it more readily if you look at the monitor from an angle. Shows up in print more readily for some reason. This image has 0.16 stop exposure adjustment. If I had to push the image this problem could be made to look more obvious. To be fair, I have only looked at this using C1 and not LC 11.5 but I don't think the loaner aptus 12 that I tested had this issue and it certainly had less noise overall.
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You should probably contact your dealer about that, if you haven't already.
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Huh- that's weird - I just assumed that when looking at this shot from my AFi-ii-12 back (with extreme exposure and curves lift in post) that what I am looking at is 4 pieces put together. And to be perfectly honest, I'm not sure this is normal.
It might also be that the silicon in this case is not stitched/stepped, but rather that 4 different amplifiers read out the different quadrants, and their gains have not been perfectly matched.
Ray
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You can have high quality in a small pixel model. The 5DII is not a good standard to judge from. The Canon sensor is severely limited by read noise, unlike the new generation Sony CMOS (as in D7000/K-5).
Only true, of course, at low ISO. At high ISO (1600 and up) the Canon 5DII has a readnoise of ~ 2.5 electrons, which is up there with the best DSLRs, and 5 times better than the best MFD CCDs.
A good CMOS sensor in medium format would be something to see.
Amen to that! Hopefully it's just a matter of time.
Ray