Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: evgeny on May 12, 2011, 08:02:30 am
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Greetings.
My basic workflow is: I save Leaf 65 .MOS files as DNG in Camera Raw, and apply sensor Profile generated in XRite Color Passport for that specific light/shot. Then no white balance is necessary.
I photograph my child a lot in a kindergarten. Some people said the images have green tint, see the image below.
I try to understand if there a real problem and what can cause it.
Thanks for comments.
(http://gallery.photo.net/photo/13105673-lg.jpg)
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Well, the response to this is going to depend very much on people's individual monitors and setups. Here, on my calibrated 19 in panel, the image certainly looks pretty cool. But as the subject is in shadow, the colour balance as depicted may well be quite accurate. You can see how the light warms up in the little patch of direct sunlight, bottom right of the frame.
John
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Some people said the images have green tint, see the image below.
I'm running a calibrated Eizo. Looks slightly green to me, most noticeably in the face, neck and t-shirt.
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Yes it is a bit green , even on my uncalibrated iMac.
Evgeny are you also doing a grey balance ?
Regards
Terence
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Sorry you said that you do not then need to do a white balance , i think you do need to
do a white balance and also the X-Rite generated profile.
Regards
Terence
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+1. You need to do both. The profile only maps colours within a particular colour space. The white balance neutralises the colour temperature of the ambient light.
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Thanks all for replies. I will also read XRite manual once again.
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Here is the description of my procedure:
1. I shoot the XRite's White Balance target (grey card) to get the grey in the middle of the histogram.
2. I use that capture to set grey balance in the Leaf 65 back.
3. I shoot the XRite's ColorChecker Classic target, which contains 24 color patches, to later create a DNG Profile.
4. I shoot all photos.
5. I convert Leaf's .MOS images to DNG in Mac computer.
6. I run the ColorChecker Passport application, open the ColorChecker Classic target, and generate new Camera Profile.
7. I apply that Camera Profile to all DNGs in Camera RAW.
8. I use the first (neutral grey) patch in the ColorChecker Classic target to set white balance in all photos in Camera RAW.
Please advice, if anything need to be corrected.
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I tested today – there is about half stop difference between the XRite's White Balance target and grey card made by Leaf. If Leaf's grey card is optimized for the Leaf 65 digital back (?), what exposure to use for the XRite's ColorChecker Classic target, half stop corrected or not? Without the correction the ColorChecker Classic target and its first (neutral grey) patch will look "brighter". However no correction is needed when I use only XRite cards.
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Here is the description of my procedure:
1. I shoot the XRite's White Balance target (grey card) to get the grey in the middle of the histogram.
2. I use that capture to set grey balance in the Leaf 65 back.
3. I shoot the XRite's ColorChecker Classic target, which contains 24 color patches, to later create a DNG Profile.
4. I shoot all photos.
5. I convert Leaf's .MOS images to DNG in Mac computer.
6. I run the ColorChecker Passport application, open the ColorChecker Classic target, and generate new Camera Profile.
7. I apply that Camera Profile to all DNGs in Camera RAW.
8. I use the first (neutral grey) patch in the ColorChecker Classic target to set white balance in all photos in Camera RAW.
Please advice, if anything need to be corrected.
Ye gods, if you are doing all that just to take a photograph it’s insane. Set the sucker to auto WB and fix it up in LR or ACR later on, for heaven’s sake. With the example you posted, about 30 seconds tweaking would do the job, surely. With my DB, I just set it to daylight WB in the summer, and cloudy WB in the winter. Works fine.
John
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http://blog.xritephoto.com/?tag=white-balance-target
I marvel at your choice of workflow with the Leaf back but some people are suckers for complicating their lives unnecessarily.
What is wrong with the Leaf or Phase software for processing I wonder.
DNG is not a fully accepted standard (hence some back manufacturers don't bother with it, google the subject for more regarding this).
The second or third patch is used for grey balance on the chart in question (provided it is clean and still neutral and capturing the main source of light).
The Leaf card if conditions above still apply is a perfect grey card and was supplied by Gretag coming from the original 24 patch target.
Make sure you are not already choosing a pre defined grey balance and profile in the initial setup on the back for your DNG workflow.
This will be mixing too many variables into the equation...
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John you hit the nail on the head (noticed your reply came up before I could complete mine)
Some guys thrive on fiddling around for nothing).
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I did two full tests (steps 1-8): the color temperature was approx 6500K at 11AM and 11000K at 6PM after white balance of either the first (neutral grey) patch in the ColorChecker Classic target or Leaf grey card in Camera RAW. Is that normal? The day was bright Sun with a few clounds.
PS: When I select "White Balance" --> "Auto" in Camera RAW, the color temperature sets at approx 5800K.
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This is a bit of a tricky one.
There seems to be a lot of bounce from vegetation but I find it cyan/green, not straight green. Appears as though the area is treed; is this so? Grass too perhaps?
I looked through the darker tones in the white shirt with Digital Color Meter and consistently got higher blue readings (G + B = C, or lower R = more C!).
(http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/5551/cyangreen.jpg)
Tried setting a neutral point in Capture One for the JPEG (C1 calls it “White Balance”) but that messed up the highlights, creating what I used to call crossed curves when I ran a colour processing lab. How big is the MOS file, Evgeny? I’d be happy to look at it in C1, and post my colour-correction workflow here. You could get it to me by YouSendit.
Only had the S/W since last year but am an absolute convert (only use Photoshop for the complicated stuff—layers, retouching, colour separation).
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I did two full tests (steps 1-8): the color temperature was approx 6500K at 11AM and 11000K at 6PM after white balance of either the first (neutral grey) patch in the ColorChecker Classic target or Leaf grey card in Camera RAW. Is that normal? The day was bright Sun with a few clounds.
PS: When I select "White Balance" --> "Auto" in Camera RAW, the color temperature sets at approx 5800K.
I might try setting a neutral point tomorrow (late night here) by tethering my M645/Aptus 22 with C1, and seeing how that helps with flesh tones and neutrals (grass and trees).
Sorry; bit tired. I will be shooting in the backyard with grass and trees (and I will try grey-balancing on the back too).
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You can download DNG files:
The photo shot at approx 6PM (https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0Bz0GxmwT1jDaZDY1ZTUzOGMtZTdlMy00ZjE0LTg0MWMtY2NhMzJhZGE1ZDFl&hl=en&authkey=CPeO87UO)
The DNG profile shot at 6PM (temperature 10000K) (https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0Bz0GxmwT1jDaZDcyNzkzMzYtZTgwYi00NjE2LWFjODAtZjg0ZjU4ZmI0MDYw&hl=en&authkey=CIDgp-wE)
The DNG profile shot at 11AM (temperature 6600K) (https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0Bz0GxmwT1jDaZDY1ZTUzOGMtZTdlMy00ZjE0LTg0MWMtY2NhMzJhZGE1ZDFl&hl=en&authkey=CPeO87UO)
Please note that the first (neutral grey) patch in first row in the ColorChecker Classic target is about in the middle of the histogram, which should confirm correct exposure.
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You can download DNG files:
The photo shot at approx 6PM (https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0Bz0GxmwT1jDaZDY1ZTUzOGMtZTdlMy00ZjE0LTg0MWMtY2NhMzJhZGE1ZDFl&hl=en&authkey=CPeO87UO)
The DNG profile shot at 6PM (temperature 10000K) (https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0Bz0GxmwT1jDaZDcyNzkzMzYtZTgwYi00NjE2LWFjODAtZjg0ZjU4ZmI0MDYw&hl=en&authkey=CIDgp-wE)
The DNG profile shot at 11AM (temperature 6600K) (https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0Bz0GxmwT1jDaZDY1ZTUzOGMtZTdlMy00ZjE0LTg0MWMtY2NhMzJhZGE1ZDFl&hl=en&authkey=CPeO87UO)
Please note that the first (neutral grey) patch in first row in the ColorChecker Classic target is about in the middle of the histogram, which should confirm correct exposure.
That first file identifies as a TIFF rather than a RAW.
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Upload a .mos file
The chart looks quite under exposed, maybe you can photograph your boy holding the chart and upload the .mos file.
When the other images of the child are opened in PS and one selects as shot and then go to "Cloudy" as a grey balance the result is quite good. IMHO
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That first file identifies as a TIFF rather than a RAW.
To clarify, I want to work in C1 with an original RAW file (.mos in this case) rather than a TIF or DNG. Thanks, IG
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DNG opened in ACR, used ACR4.4 factory profile and clicked on the sunglasses frame under the cap for WB
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I have only .MOS of profiles. Here they are
f3.4 1/125 6PM (https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0Bz0GxmwT1jDaNWFiZjEyMzctM2Y4Yy00ZDFmLWJiYzMtZDI2NmFjZTk4Yzdj&hl=en&authkey=CNynqPwP)
f3.4 1/250 12AM (https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0Bz0GxmwT1jDaYzA3ZmMzMDEtYTc0ZC00MzNiLTgzMzMtZWY3Y2M3NGVlOTAw&hl=en&authkey=CLKnwNkM)
f4 1/250 12AM (https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0Bz0GxmwT1jDaZTFmZTQ4YmQtY2Y2Yy00MzUwLTg2OGYtMjdmZGRkYWVjNWJh&hl=en&authkey=CN3JlawH)
Update: I don't know why some of these shared files can't be downloaded from Google Docs..
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DNG opened in ACR, used ACR4.4 factory profile and clicked on the sunglasses frame under the cap for WB
Looking good!
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Evgeny,
Why are you using PS?
Why not C1 or Leafcapture11, both of which are free to you as the owner of an Aptus?
I run into this quite often when clients insist I supply RAW files to them, which I sometimes do, just to teach them a lesson. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. You will achieve better results, quicker, and don't even get me started if you have to fix some moire on your child's T-shirt.
Jason.
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I run into this quite often when clients insist I supply RAW files to them, which I sometimes do, just to teach them a lesson. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. You will achieve better results, quicker, and don't even get me started if you have to fix some moire on your child's T-shirt.
Jason.
I have had clients ask to me download files to their computer at the end of a shoot (mostly clients I don’t particularly trust) but when I tell them I only shoot RAW, and the size of the files, they suddenly lose interest! Chuckle!
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Evgeny,
Why are you using PS?
Why not C1 or Leafcapture11, both of which are free to you as the owner of an Aptus?
Jason.
Camera RAW has more options than LeafCapture to process .mos/.dng files. In adiition, the .dng is rather standard format than .mos. The Adobe is a software company, while Leaf is a hardware maker.
I use LeafCapture when shooting tethered. For this specific shoot, there is about no difference after white balancing XRite card in Camera RAW and LeafCapture. So, what is advantage of the LeafCapture?
I don't know why to pay $399 for C1 Pro, if a $600 PS CS5 already has Camera RAW.
PS: I'm going to Safari near Tel Aviv right now. Will read your replies today evening. Thanks!
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Evgeny,
Please download Capture One and try it for thirty days.
I have used various RAW converters and they all have their good bits, but I am a convert since buying C1 last year (have used Photoshop since V1.0.7).
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My advice is to leave all the color checker/profile making for acurate color as opposed to pleasing color. Just do what Yair did in ACR, if ACR is your thing. Its simple and effective, prodicuing a pleasing result. If I were taking pitures of children, I'd make them look healthy. I'd shoot a white balance, find pleasing color in LR/C1/LC/ACR and work selects in Photoshop, if needed. Making your own profile etc is a big time spend for no real gain. Now if you are shooting textiles or cosmetics, a custom profile could prove useful.
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Sensor profiles provide pleasant colors. I don't create profile for every shot. I often use profiles, which I already created for some time of a day. When I do new profile, I usually spend 3–5 minutes to shoot ColorChecker Classic target and then addition 3-5 minutes to generate profile and apply to all images. Not a big deal for good colors. Here is an example. Please note, I shot this photo in the middle of the day, under harsh Sun.
(http://gallery.photo.net/photo/12847615-lg.jpg)
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And the same one with WB picked from the boy's shoe; It looks like the Colochecker thing is a hit and miss process. It might work when your lights are controlled but it also relies on Adobe's interpretation of colours in the profile, in this case Adobe's own engine seems to be doing a better job IMO
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Yes Yaya,s version is way better.