Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: nightfire on May 12, 2011, 06:32:36 am
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Can anyone tell me how much a platform change from Hasselblad V to Phase One would roughly cost for a P45+, assuming that the back is not covered by extended warranty? I just need a ballpark figure. Thanks!
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Can anyone tell me how much a platform change from Hasselblad V to Phase One would roughly cost for a P45+, assuming that the back is not covered by extended warranty? I just need a ballpark figure. Thanks!
USD List price is $3,000.
You might consider contacting your dealer and asking if they would be interested in a trade. Depending on the situation, they may be open to trading your P45+ for one of theirs, plus damages, though it could easily be a lot less than just paying for a platform swap. For example - say I have a client looking for P45+ Contax mount, which are not as common as other mounts. I currently have (2) P45+ Mamiya/Phase mounts, and a P45+ Hassy V mount. I might be open to swapping one of my P45+M's for the Contax, plus some change to make the numbers work.
That's another way around paying for a swap - check with your dealer and see.
Steve Hendrix
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Thanks Steve!
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USD List price is $3,000.
Steve Hendrix
That seems an incredible sum of money just to change the mount. Surely there is just a plate gubbins which you unscrew and pop a new one on?
John
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incredible!
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That seems an incredible sum of money just to change the mount. Surely there is just a plate gubbins which you unscrew and pop a new one on?
John
It has always been this price (or close to it). Phase One does not change the mount. They swap the back you have for a replacement back (similar shot count) that bears the desired mount. The cost is fairly equivalent with anyone who has offered the same service instead of interchangeable adapters. Leaf is a bit less because they actually do just swap the mount. It likely also includes an inspection and service check of the back (I'd have to confirm this with Doug, but that is my perception).
Steve Hendrix
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Hmmm
So much for open platforms.
John
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Hmmm
So much for open platforms.
John
John, I don't really understand the point you're making. ???
Steve Hendrix
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John, I don't really understand the point you're making. ???
Steve Hendrix
Well, Steve, this is nothing personal you understand. It's just that in my innocence, I assumed that where you have an MF digital back system which is "open platform", it would mean that not only could you purchase the back to fit a wide range of cameras, but that if you decided later on to get a different camera system you would then simply be able to swap the mount on the back and use it on that camera instead. But at $3,000 that (in my case) might be more than the cost of the camera. Not only that, but I would expect to be able to keep my back (which I would have treated like the crown jewels), not have to swap it for someone else's with an unknown history.
To me, this just does not sound like a good deal at all.
John
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Just get a Sinarback - the user interchangeable adapter plate costs a lot less than $3000 - though you will then run into the "open platform" issue that Sinar's software only runs on a Mac not on PC yet.
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Or just buy my as new P45+ back for Hasselblad V with less than 400 exposures (yes less than fourhundred!!!) and i am only asking 8000 euro. ;)
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Well, Steve, this is nothing personal you understand. It's just that in my innocence, I assumed that where you have an MF digital back system which is "open platform", it would mean that not only could you purchase the back to fit a wide range of cameras, but that if you decided later on to get a different camera system you would then simply be able to swap the mount on the back and use it on that camera instead. But at $3,000 that (in my case) might be more than the cost of the camera. Not only that, but I would expect to be able to keep my back (which I would have treated like the crown jewels), not have to swap it for someone else's with an unknown history.
To me, this just does not sound like a good deal at all.
John
John -
This is an open platform forum, anyone is free to respectfully posit any thoughts or opinions they have, and I treat it as such, there was nothing offensive in your post, personally or otherwise. So, please, no worries.
But, did you really mean to say that if you swapped a digital back mount, you would expect to keep your digital back? That threw me a bit - gosh anyone would take that. *Yes, I'd like to change my P45+ digital back mount to Mamiya, but I want to keep the one I have, and pay less than $3,000.* Umm hmmm.... ::)
I've never really appreciated the term "open platform" myself. It's a pretty vague term, but one that seems meant to convey I can put this on any platform (camera platform, in this case). But the vagueness means that there is nothing in the term that addresses any costs. So, no claim of being able to go on any platform at some low or high cost, just that it can go on any platform (that can accept it). And for the most part, this is true.
But I digress, so back to the issue -
Yes, $3,000 is a pricey chunk of change.
Yes, you can just buy a Hasselblad or Sinar digital back and purchase interchangeable adapters for less, typically $700 - $2,600, depending on the adapter. But consider this - actually, no you can't. Hasselblad no longer makes digital backs for other cameras, only for Hasselblad cameras. So, the only digital back you can buy new today that offers interchangeable adapters is a Sinar digital back.
So if you say the average price of an interchangeable adapter is say, $1,400, then compare that to changing mounts on a Phase One back. Yes, $3,000. But they take your unit back, which means it must go through an inspection and refurbishment process. And while your unit may be functional, there still may be components or issues with the unit that you're swapping that need attention. The unit they swap it for must also go through an inspection and refurbishment process. A loss of time and labor in a service division is a very tangible cost.
When you consider the comparative cost of the average adapter you could buy today, and the wide variety of digital back options that can go on any primary medium format camera that Phase One offers (7) compared to Hasselblad (none) and Sinar (3), then the cost difference is not that significant.
$3,000 does seem like a lot just to be able to put a digital back on a different camera, but pricing is a relative proposition. Relative to the other options - few that there are - IMO it is not as expensive as it appears. FYI - Leaf actually does swap the interface, and the cost is $2,500. But they also still do go through an inspection and service check process of your unit.
Steve Hendrix
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Hasselblad no longer makes digital backs for other cameras, only for Hasselblad cameras.
Did Hasselblad officially make this statement?
I assumed as much given that they did not announce any new CF backs last year but I have never read any statement anywhere that confirmed this.
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Did Hasselblad officially make this statement?
I assumed as much given that they did not announce any new CF backs last year but I have never read any statement anywhere that confirmed this.
http://www.hasselbladusa.com/products/digital-backs.aspx
Steve Hendrix
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Thank you Steve, your advice saved me some money today!
Turns out the dealer I bought the back from indeed had a trade-in offer for me - a P45+ with one-tenth of my current actuations, and 6 months warranty too. I'll still have to pay dearly, but quite a bit less than the standard platform change fee.
Unfortunately, I'm a bit between a rock and a hard place if I want to keep doing MF digital. My mistake - I should have anticipated earlier when I bought the P45+ with V mount that manual focusing with my existing Hasselblad might not be possible forever considering my eyesight. Anyway, lession learned, and I wish Phase One a prosperous future - because I'm going to be stuck with them for a long time now, for better or worse ;).
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One thing that I point out to many people that are considering a new PhaseOne digital back purchase is to strongly consider the Value Added Warranty. Besides giving you 3 years of warranty coverage P+ & 5 years on the IQ series, it gives you a loner digital back if yours needs service and 1 platform swap during the term of the Value Added Warranty. It is a $3000 option on the P+ and $4000 on the IQ series.
It is transferable so if you decide to sell your camera the coverage goes with it, and more importantly the purchaser could change the mount if needed.
So it makes your Phase One back more marketable.
So if you purchase a VA warranty you will not have to worry about paying the fee and have peace of mind.
Lance
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So if you purchase a VA warranty you will not have to worry about paying the fee and have peace of mind.
Well, I should hope you wouldn't to worry about it, you've already paid it haven't you. Suppose nothing goes wrong (and it really shouldn't at the price of an IQ whatever) and you didn't want a platform swap anyhow?
I think you guys live in a very different world to the one I inhabit ;)
John
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Well, I should hope you wouldn't to worry about it, you've already paid it haven't you. Suppose nothing goes wrong (and it really shouldn't at the price of an IQ whatever) and you didn't want a platform swap anyhow?
I think you guys live in a very different world to the one I inhabit ;)
John
John I think that Steve and Lance are just using too many words here...
If you have a V-series Leaf or Phase back on your 500 and decide to change to an AF camera then you can change the back (Phase) or its mount (Leaf) and this comes with a price tag.
You cannot do this with any other current* digital back
* current means in production and that offers different resolution choices e.g. Aptus-II 5/6/7/8/10/12
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current* ;)
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http://www.hasselbladusa.com/products/digital-backs.aspx
Steve Hendrix
Steve, I saw this as well and I deduce the same thing from it as you do but it is still no official statement from the company towards the future though, thanks Joris.
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Steve, I saw this as well and I deduce the same thing from it as you do but it is still no official statement from the company towards the future though, thanks Joris.
True enough - I deduced as well and didn't imply anything official from Hasselblad. My deducement is only based on the fact that Hasselblad doesn't indicate any current, in production digital backs for non-Hasselblad cameras on their website. Considering that the last models shown are discontinued 39MP sensor products introduced over 5 years ago, I would say unless we hear otherwise, for now that's the reality.
My only reference intent was to show that while there are interchangeable adapter systems available, they're not that cheap either, and the digital back choices for those systems are dwindling. Of course the camera platforms have dwindled as well, if you're counting products that are still in production.
Steve Hendrix
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But, did you really mean to say that if you swapped a digital back mount, you would expect to keep your digital back? That threw me a bit - gosh anyone would take that. *Yes, I'd like to change my P45+ digital back mount to Mamiya, but I want to keep the one I have, and pay less than $3,000.* Umm hmmm.... ::)
Steve - no, your statement is the one that completely threw me! I agree with John entirely. To my understanding, indeed to anyone's, swapping the mount means just that - swapping the mount, and only the mount. Not the complete back! Yes, of course, I would expect to get my original back returned to me, just with a different mount on it. The other interpretation is just too weird, and I cannot believe that what actually happens is that you get a "changeling" back returned to you!
Ray
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Well John, not "Everyone" knows, because I never came across it, and clearly neither did the other John (Smith) in this thread.
Other than some ancient LL or other forum thread, can you point me to anywhere on the websites of PhaseOne or their main dealers where this policy is made clear?
Ray
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Well John, not "Everyone" knows, because I never came across it, and clearly neither did the other John (Smith) in this thread.
Ray
No, I didn't realise that you would have to swap your back for another one. Phase users would already know this, of course. I still don't understand why they have done this - the basic shell for all the backs must be the same. Therefore you could have a six or eight-point attachment on the body for a range of adapter plates, which would surely be more sensible and cheaper. Leaf certainly seem to think so.
John
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No, I didn't realise that you would have to swap your back for another one. Phase users would already know this, of course. I still don't understand why they have done this - the basic shell for all the backs must be the same. Therefore you could have a six or eight-point attachment on the body for a range of adapter plates, which would surely be more sensible and cheaper. Leaf certainly seem to think so.
John
I'm sure there's a reason inherent to the design of the back chassis itself. Case in point, Leaf backs are notable for their eBox system, which allows components to be replaced (like a firewire circuit board) while not exposing the sensor to any extraneous material (dust, etc). This is laudable. It's why Leaf and Mamiya branded backs can generally be repaired within a couple days in the USA, instead of needing to be sent back to the factory clean room facility. It's a different design with the Phase One chassis and like I said, I'm sure there are reasons why they swap out the unit instead of a swappable platform interface. They were not designed this way.
It's a relatively moot point anyway, as the "mount swap" for Leaf costs almost as much as the "platform change" from Phase One.
Steve Hendrix
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It's a relatively moot point anyway, as the "mount swap" for Leaf costs almost as much as the "platform change" from Phase One.
Fair enough, Steve. I think the problem I have with all of this is that it is fine for pros and corporate photogs who can reclaim these costs against tax and recover them from clients. But for the amateur like myself, even if we can afford the back, can we afford to run it thereafter? (a bit like being able to buy a Ferrari but then being too skint to buy tyres for it). When in truth, a little more thought in the design process (like the infamous internal battery swap) would make the thing easier and cheaper to service. I am quite pleased with Hasselblad at least inasmuch as they produced the CFV-39 at what is a pretty reasonable price for us 500 users - a lot cheaper than a P45, for example. But I haven't asked them how much they charge to replace the battery, yet, I have to admit ;)
John
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But I haven't asked them how much they charge to replace the battery, yet, I have to admit ;)
John
This isn't a complaint (probably because both my backs are running fine) but I admit I'm fascinated as to why it cost $2,500 to change the clock battery in a Phase back?
Is this really true and if so has anyone of the reps that frequent this forum answered why?
IMO
BC
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This isn't a complaint (probably because both my backs are running fine) but I admit I'm fascinated as to why it cost $2,500 to change the clock battery in a Phase back?
Is this really true and if so has anyone of the reps that frequent this forum answered why?
I would imagine it is because the design of the back means that to get at the battery you have to dismantle it to the point where it must be done in a clean room and you also have to recalibrate the sensor, for which it has to go back to Denmark. Which is just plain silly for an item which will need in-service replacement. The battery probably costs $5.
John
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So with this new IQ series of backs, surely the designers had the presence of mind to make the internal battery a lot more accessible than with the P/P+ series? Anyone know if they did?
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So with this new IQ series of backs, surely the designers had the presence of mind to make the internal battery a lot more accessible than with the P/P+ series? Anyone know if they did?
This is the sort of stuff which nobody is going to tell you until you find out the hard way. However, Hasselblad UK prices seem very reasonable by comparison -
CCD Cleaning and Sensor Calibration £312. And Flash Synch Repair, which seems to involve just as much work as the Phase battery replacement, is £417. The job involves -
"A flash sync repair requires total disassembly of the digital back. The flash output integrated circuit is replaced
and additional hardware modifications are made (if necessary) to ensure optimum performance. The CCD
protecting filter is removed, the position of the CCD measured and if necessary, adjusted. The CCD is very
carefully cleaned with compressed air, cleaning fluid and tissues. The unit is then thoroughly checked, following
internal protocol, before despatch."
Now if Hasselbald can do all of that for £417, why not Phase?
John
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John,
On all the PhaseOne backs since the P series the Flash Sync Connector is replaceable by the end-user or dealer with a $40 kit that consists of a few extra connectors and a special tool. Making the Flash Sync Connector field replaceable probably in response to their experiences with having to do H-series repairs in Denmark.
Not sure about the design of the internal battery, but I can only imagine they have taken that into consideration, and also most likely are using battery technology has evolved since the design of the P/H series since.
L
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Fair enough, Steve. I think the problem I have with all of this is that it is fine for pros and corporate photogs who can reclaim these costs against tax and recover them from clients. But for the amateur like myself, even if we can afford the back, can we afford to run it thereafter? (a bit like being able to buy a Ferrari but then being too skint to buy tyres for it). When in truth, a little more thought in the design process (like the infamous internal battery swap) would make the thing easier and cheaper to service. I am quite pleased with Hasselblad at least inasmuch as they produced the CFV-39 at what is a pretty reasonable price for us 500 users - a lot cheaper than a P45, for example. But I haven't asked them how much they charge to replace the battery, yet, I have to admit ;)
John
I'm not sure how the internal battery change came to $2,500 from that one thread. And without recalling the details, it doesn't sound right. Internal battery replacement for a USA-based customer is $600. Because yes, they will have to open the back - just like everyone else besides Leaf, even Hasselblad, though I don't know for sure - and yes, they will clean it, inspect it, re-calibrate it, etc.
It is $600, not $2,500.
The design of products must take into account not just serviceability, but optimization of functionality, quality, etc. Sometimes there are conflicts. It is a non linear equation.
John, I hear you about not just affording the purchase, but also the potential upkeep and surrounding accessories. That is sage advice for someone considering a system like this. ;)
I do feel while the CFV-39 is a great value ($5k less), but it is only made for one system (which can affect costs). A P45+ can go on many different cameras (and I won't get into the feature comparison, long exposures, etc). And we have P45+ refurbs coming in near the same price as a CFV with full warranty.
Steve Hendrix
Steve Hendrix