Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: MNG on March 28, 2011, 10:24:45 pm
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Hi Everyone,
I'm about to order one of these cameras with the HR 23mm lens, 28mm XL Super Digitar, HR 43mm with the Aptus-12 back and wonder if the extra 40mm rise on the RL3D camera would be usable with the image circle of digital lenses available today? compared to the 25mm rise of the Rm3di? I shoot interiors and exteriors and some landscapes. My other option is the Alpa Max. Any real world experiences welcomed. Thank you, Michael
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I would say no. Or should I better say, perhaps with some very FEW selected lenses. The lenses you selected can't handle more than 25mm shift. In addition the Rm3Di has 30mm rise. I can't even think of a lens which can handle 40mm shift on a new 8ßMp back, perhaps the Schneider 72XL, but thats not the newest lens.
The 23mm can't shift more than 3-5mm the 28 perhaps 10-20mm and the 43 should do the 25mm, however I don't know how good the edges will hold up.
So I personally would go with the Alpa Max or Arca Rm3Di not with the RL3D. If you have any specific question, feel free to ask, I will have my Rm3Di on Thursday.
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Hi Everyone,
I'm about to order one of these cameras with the HR 23mm lens, 28mm XL Super Digitar, HR 43mm with the Aptus-12 back and wonder if the extra 40mm rise on the RL3D camera would be usable with the image circle of digital lenses available today? compared to the 25mm rise of the Rm3di? I shoot interiors and exteriors and some landscapes. My other option is the Alpa Max. Any real world experiences welcomed. Thank you, Michael
Theoretically...
On my list of Schneider Apo-Digitars, there are several lenses that can use over 25 mm of shift on a 37 * 49 mm sensor.
In my initial set of lenses each lens is about twice the focal length of the next... relying on shift-and-stitch to fill in the gaps... I try to avoid buying lenses that do not have image circles of at least 100mm, but yes, I know that the lenses with smaller image circles have better rez.
When photographing a church with a spire you can go beyond the official limit, and re-paint the sky in the corners.
If you combine tilt with shift (e.g. to get a carpet in the foreground in focus) you can use more shift than you could with the lens perpendicular to the sensor, but this would only make a significant difference when using large tilt angles on long lenses.
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On the last page of the Alpa brochure there is a table with the image circles of the various lenses.
Did you try both the RM3d and the Max in your own environment/on location?
I am in a similar situation and when I had the Arca for a test drive, I realized that there are a few features which I don't like:
- lens mount: if the body is on the tripod or the body is lying on its back, changing lenses is relatively easy (and you get used to it) but holding it in one hand and using the other one to change a lens isn't fun, IMHO. It seems to me that the Cambo or Alpa way of monting a lens is better/faster if you have to do it in relative darkness or in a dirty environment.
- position of spirit levels: If you have the Arca on or above eye level you can't see the spirit level. To me, this is a major and annoying flaw. Also, if you wan't to take a picture of a ceiling you are on your own when it comes to levelling the cam: there is no spirit level for the third axis (at least, the RM3d I had didn't have one).
- shift/fall/rise-scales on the body: It's kind of coarse on the Arca (every 2 mm) - I'd prefer more ticks ...
- shift/fall/rise: no 'klicking' zero position - I prefer if I can check if shift/fall/rise is zeroed without actually looking at the back of the cam.
But this is just me - if you haven't done so, try for more than a few hours at your own place before you buy ...
Chris
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Having given this a fair bit of thought and tried out all three cameras I would consider the RL3D or the RM3D.
Get the RM3D if you want to reduce cost, size and weight. Get the RL3D for versatility and long-term usefulness. Who knows, maybe Phase will come through with an RZ update and a 6x7 CMOS chip (we can all dream)? In the meantime you have the option of stitching with lenses with larger image circles.
Get the Alpa Max if you want a lovely paperweight/toy.
The Leaf has probably the best Live View of any medium-format back but it's still an absolute nightmare. I know, I've just spent two weeks in Japan shooting with it. Yet that is what you will be completely dependent upon for accurate focus with the Alpa and your lenses and subjects.
The 72XL is a viable large image circle alternative. It is not as sharp as a digital lens but even a small amount of stitching totally obliterates the difference. Having spoken to the woman who designed it on the Schneider stand at Photokina, she considers it one of the best non-digital lenses to use digitally because a) it is one of Schneider's greatest analogue lens achievements, b) it is already very good at F11. This has been my experience and I have used it extensively for three-part stitches with a Rotaslide and single frame anywhere I need a lot of camera movement.
I don't want to be rude but the earlier spirit-level comments should be taken with a pinch of salt. If you haven't done so before, do this experiment: get a short, high-end, precise spirit level and compare it with any on-camera levels. Having done this test I don't think you will subsequently consider them for more than general guidance.
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Get the Alpa Max if you want a lovely paperweight/toy.
The Leaf has probably the best Live View of any medium-format back but it's still an absolute nightmare. I know, I've just spent two weeks in Japan shooting with it. Yet that is what you will be completely dependent upon for accurate focus with the Alpa and your lenses and subjects.
I'm one of many professionals that don't consider an Alpa a "paperweight/toy" I see it as one the most precise tools to create images with! I have used Alpa's for the last 5 years, day in and day out, and it still amaze me how well this system is designed and made.
and I can create images with accurate focus without live View.... not saying I don't want it in the back though.
/adam
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On the last page of the Alpa brochure there is a table with the image circles of the various lenses.
Did you try both the RM3d and the Max in your own environment/on location?
I am in a similar situation and when I had the Arca for a test drive, I realized that there are a few features which I don't like:
- lens mount: if the body is on the tripod or the body is lying on its back, changing lenses is relatively easy (and you get used to it) but holding it in one hand and using the other one to change a lens isn't fun, IMHO. It seems to me that the Cambo or Alpa way of monting a lens is better/faster if you have to do it in relative darkness or in a dirty environment.
- position of spirit levels: If you have the Arca on or above eye level you can't see the spirit level. To me, this is a major and annoying flaw. Also, if you wan't to take a picture of a ceiling you are on your own when it comes to levelling the cam: there is no spirit level for the third axis (at least, the RM3d I had didn't have one).
- shift/fall/rise-scales on the body: It's kind of coarse on the Arca (every 2 mm) - I'd prefer more ticks ...
- shift/fall/rise: no 'klicking' zero position - I prefer if I can check if shift/fall/rise is zeroed without actually looking at the back of the cam.
But this is just me - if you haven't done so, try for more than a few hours at your own place before you buy ...
Chris
Chris -
I don't see how this could be any easier with one hand, on the Arca compared to either Cambo (which we sell) or Alpa. Can you expand on this? If holding the camera with one hand, you simply unscrew the lens with one hand and replace it with another lens that you screw in, which you can do with one hand. How would one go about this with a camera that has 2 separate levers to engage to secure the lens?
I mean, with the RM3Di, you just seat the lens and turn it until you feel resistance. It's easy for me to do with one hand.
Steve Hendrix
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I don't see how this could be any easier with one hand, on the Arca compared to either Cambo (which we sell) or Alpa. Can you expand on this? If holding the camera with one hand, you simply unscrew the lens with one hand and replace it with another lens that you screw in, which you can do with one hand. How would one go about this with a camera that has 2 separate levers to engage to secure the lens?
I mean, with the RM3Di, you just seat the lens and turn it until you feel resistance. It's easy for me to do with one hand.
I don't know if this was a problem with the demo model I had but it was easy to tilt the thread on the lens mount when inserting the lens right before you try to turn it. It's much easier to hold/insert the lens perpendicular to the body when the latter is fixed. My experience, with the body and the two lenses I had for my test drive, that you have to hold it exactly perpendicular or you have problems hitting the thread on the spacer/in the body.
Chris
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I don't know if this was a problem with the demo model I had but it was easy to tilt the thread on the lens mount when inserting the lens right before you try to turn it. It's much easier to hold/insert the lens perpendicular to the body when the latter is fixed. My experience, with the body and the two lenses I had for my test drive, that you have to hold it exactly perpendicular or you have problems hitting the thread on the spacer/in the body.
Chris
Actually, the lens will seat itself, then screw in, so once you're familiar with the seating (if you face the camera, then the dash seats at 9 oclock), then even in the dark, you'd be able to find it quickly. I'll admit, until I realized this, I had trouble with this as well. But knowing that it seats then screws easily is the key, and with that established, it's easier to me than navigating security latches. But of course, many of the products and how they're received, is a subjective matter.
Steve Hendrix
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Actually, the lens will seat itself, then screw in, so once you're familiar with the seating (if you face the camera, then the dash seats at 9 oclock), then even in the dark, you'd be able to find it quickly. I'll admit, until I realized this, I had trouble with this as well. But knowing that it seats then screws easily is the key, and with that established, it's easier to me than navigating security latches.
Steve, would you say you can switch lenses almost as easily on the RM3d as on, say, a Leica M? Maybe, my complaint regarding the lens mount was largely based on user error.
Chris
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I had a play around with the RM3D - really nice camera - didn't have any problem mounting the longer lenses, but with the smaller (i.e. Schneider) wider-angle ones - especially if the spacer for the rotaslide is removed - I found it all too easy to grab the lens / copal shutter and start twisting, rather than the metal mount (kind of like what Mark was doing at one point in the LL video). With gloves on I'd imagine it's even more tempting just to twist the lens/shutter assembly.
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Steve, would you say you can switch lenses almost as easily on the RM3d as on, say, a Leica M? Maybe, my complaint regarding the lens mount was largely based on user error.
Chris
Well, I suspect that lens mounting and unmounting is as subjective an issue as grip ergonomics, but if someone was partial to the RM3Di, they might say it's easier, since you don't have to use two hands, one to press the release and then one to seat and screw/unscrew. I don't think everyone would unanimously agree and be in favor of one lens mounting over another. There's always an argument for the other side.
Buckshot, I think that's a good point about grabbing the lens/shutter instead of the base. I suppose that would take some practice, learning to grab and turn from the base in the dark so it becomes a reflex habit.
Steve Hendrix
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With the Schneider 24, 35 etc. it wouldn't be too difficult for Arca-Swiss to machine a couple of protrusions on the upper surface of the lens mount (that wouldn't interfere with the working of the lens) so that the user could apply the necessary torque without potentially damaging the lens/shutter. Since these mounts each cost nearly as much as an Arca-Swiss Cube (go figure) I don't think it's too much to ask.
My only other gripe would be that the tilt isn't yaw free - not so much an issue with the (Schneider) shorter lenses, but with the longer ones I found I would have to chase the image on the ground glass more often than not (if employing tilt).
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Mon Vieux,
We would all love to have yaw-free movements, tilt and swing, like on a Sinar P or Linhof 679, et al, on a small, lightweight field camera.
We would all like a lot of things we won't ever have.
In a lightweight, nimble, capable field camera, there are inevitable compromises.
No axis tilts and swings, for a camera capable of capturing light on the move, weather breaking up, and a camera we will carry instead of leave at home.
Such is our conundrum.
It could be a lot worse.
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We would all love to have yaw-free movements, tilt and swing, like on a Sinar P or Linhof 679, et al, on a small, lightweight field camera.
On the plane of the lensboard, that would be a Linhof Techno then - or a Cambo Wide RS/DS with their T/S lenses.
We would all like a lot of things we won't ever have.
Well, optimism is allowed surely?
In a lightweight, nimble, capable field camera, there are inevitable compromises.
Absolutely. What's endlessly intriguing is how different companies attempt to negate these compromises. In this respect the RM3D is one of the better attempts IMHO.
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Hi Everyone,
I'm about to order one of these cameras with the HR 23mm lens, 28mm XL Super Digitar, HR 43mm with the Aptus-12 back and wonder if the extra 40mm rise on the RL3D camera would be usable with the image circle of digital lenses available today? compared to the 25mm rise of the Rm3di? I shoot interiors and exteriors and some landscapes. My other option is the Alpa Max. Any real world experiences welcomed. Thank you, Michael
The RL3D has 20mm shift left and right, the RM3di has 15mm. I got the RL3D last year, about 6 months before the new ones were announced. I've thought about trading in and switching but for now I haven't as I do like having all the movement, and its about the same size as an ALPA Max. I do use the full movement of the camera too on my Rodenstock lenses (50,70,105). The lens mount is rock solid, no chance of anything going wrong like the adapted helical mounts sometimes do. I showed a friend my kit and as soon as he saw the charts and laser he stuck with his f-line...depends what you're used to I guess.
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Hi Nick,
I am also thinking of the RL3D for the extra movements.
Are you still shooting a mix of film and digital with the RL3D or just digital?
When you shoot in the vertical format do you have to turn the viewfinder to the same orientation as the digital back or is there a vertical scale on the viewfinder?
Does each lens come a focus table tube which you change out on the viewfinder and is visible when setting up?
Where about do you place the laser distance finder when you take measurements - align with the sensor/film plane or close to the camera lens?
Does the RM3D have the same features as the RM3Di with just bit more rise and shift?
Have you noticed any colour or other differences between the HR and Digitar lenses with the RL3D?
Michael
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Hi Nick,
I am also thinking of the RL3D for the extra movements.
Are you still shooting a mix of film and digital with the RL3D or just digital?
When you shoot in the vertical format do you have to turn the viewfinder to the same orientation as the digital back or is there a vertical scale on the viewfinder?
Does each lens come a focus table tube which you change out on the viewfinder and is visible when setting up?
Where about do you place the laser distance finder when you take measurements - align with the sensor/film plane or close to the camera lens?
Does the RM3D have the same features as the RM3Di with just bit more rise and shift?
Have you noticed any colour or other differences between the HR and Digitar lenses with the RL3D?
Michael
In answer to each of your questions:
I just shoot digital, with a P45+
I'm not actually using the Vario Finder at the moment...but each lens does come with a tube and chart. images here:
http://www.arca-shop.de/Cameras/R-3D/equipment/Focus-Vario-Finder-Rm3d::845.html
I align my disto D5 with the the sensor position.
The RM3D doesn't have a rotatable front lens panel (for tilt/swing) unlike the RL3D and 3Di, and it has less movement.
Can't say I notice any colour differences between the lenses.
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My point exactly. The Rm3Di is a shooter's camera, and when tricked out with viewfinder and a laser rangefinder, would be deadly fast and accurate to use.
Bill
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I bought the RL3D from Capture Intergration after about a year of trying
to decide on what tec camera to buy for my p65.I read all the forums and talked to
a lot of people before deciding on this camera.I wanted to make the right choice for my
landscape photography,because your going to spend lot money for a tec kit.Also I
wanted to buy a camera that hopfully I would not have to replace for a long time.I know
in the future we wll see larger chips.The Rl3D can shoot 4x5 film,so I'am covered for any
chip size up to 4x5.The real thing about his camera is the ability to tilt with all lens and
the FOCUS ring.There are other things about this camera that makes it so good.Also I had
a Idea about something that I would like to have this camera do,so I called up a company
that makes after market products for tec cameras and asked if they could build a specific
thing for this camera.They said they would and I have the prototype in my hands now doing
testing.the final unit will be available soon.It will something that no other tec camera can do.
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I bought the RL3D from Capture Intergration after about a year of trying
to decide on what tec camera to buy for my p65.I read all the forums and talked to
a lot of people before deciding on this camera.I wanted to make the right choice for my
landscape photography,because your going to spend lot money for a tec kit.Also I
wanted to buy a camera that hopfully I would not have to replace for a long time.
I understand your point above... and this is probably not directly relevant - but nevertheless a question, especially for the Rm/rl3d owners: Are the same lenses usable on both RL3D and RM3D ? And what about m-line2 ?
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Also I had
a Idea about something that I would like to have this camera do,so I called up a company
that makes after market products for tec cameras and asked if they could build a specific
thing for this camera.They said they would and I have the prototype in my hands now doing
testing.the final unit will be available soon.It will something that no other tec camera can do.
It's not a pop-up flash is it? ;)
Would be interesting to know what it really is...some form of back tilt perhaps?
Answers on a postcard please.
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Are the same lenses usable on both RL3D and RM3D ? And what about m-line2 ?
Yes and yes. As to using the lenses on the M-line 2, have a look at the pictures on Christopher Barrett's blog:
http://christopherbarrett.net/blog/?p=1350 (scroll down)
Chris
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Good for you! That's what I love about tech/view cameras, the user can create options the rest of us can use.
I can't wait to see what you've come up with.
Bill
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Hi Christopher,
Have you received your RM3Di camera and lenses?
Can you report back with anything which you like or dislike?
Do you use it with the viewfinder and which lenses did you end up with?
Cheers
Michael
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I currently use the camera with the R32, R40, S43, R90 and S150. The back i use is a IQ180 and that is the reason why I'm probably selling the S43, just to much Colorcast. I really like the camera and can't complain. I love the lens shade system, which I personally think is a Joke on the Alpas, or should i say none existend ? Especially on the Rodenstock lenses a good lens shade is important. I will probably write more on the subject once i'm back from Asia and have some more time.
I think both the Alpa and Arca are great systems. In the end I think currently the Arca is the better option, if one does not plan to get a camera like the Alpa TC. This is where Alpa really shines, being able to use the same lenses on a camera like the Alpa Max and the Alpa TC. However, I still have the Phase One 645 with some great lenses so i don't need a "tech" camera for this prupose.
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Dear Christopher
There exists actually a professional lens shade system, for the lenses used on an Alpa camera, here:
http://www.alpa.ch/en/products/lenses/pro-lens-shades/pro-lens-shade7075.html
It can be used on following Rodenstock lenses:
Rodenstock HR Digaron-S 23 mm
Rodenstock HR Digaron-S 28 mm
Rodenstock HR Digaron-S 35 mm
Rodenstock HR Digaron-W 40 mm
Rodenstock HR Digaron-W 50 mm
Rodenstock HR Digaron-W 90 mm
As well as on these Schneider lenses:
Schneider ALPA Apo-Helvetar 48 mm
ALPA AAA 45 mm
ALPA AAA 55 mm
Schneider Super-Angulon 47 mm XL
Schneider Super-Angulon 58 mm XL
Worth IMO to have a look at it.
Best regards
Thierry
I love the lens shade system, which I personally think is a Joke on the Alpas, or should i say none existend ?
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There exists actually a professional lens shade system, for the lenses used on an Alpa camera, here:
http://www.alpa.ch/en/products/lenses/pro-lens-shades/pro-lens-shade7075.html
For a price of 493 Swiss Franken = 590 US$.
My mind is doing hard gymnastics to understand this ... and fails.
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I have seen the system and while it is really well made and great quality, I personally think it is not enough. I feel that a lot of modern lenses are very prone to flare and need more shading. The Alpa lens shade system, is way to limited for me. I personally would say that Sinars, Arcas and Linhos bellow/shade system are far better.
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Dear Christoph,
It is not a mass production, it is tooled with the most precise CNC machines, in very limited quantities, in Switzerland. If you have the opportunity to visit Alpa do it, you will understand what means ultimate quality in terms of costs and that quality has its cost.
Best regards
Thierry
For a price of 493 Swiss Franken = 590 US$.
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Then there is another solution: the Lee Filters compendium can be mounted as well, among other compendium systems:
http://www.leefilters.com/camera/products/range/ref:I46C9C213A68B5/
Best regards
Thierry
I have seen the system and while it is really well made and great quality, I personally think it is not enough. ....
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Then there is another solution: the Lee Filters compendium can be mounted as well, among other compendium systems:
http://www.leefilters.com/camera/products/range/ref:I46C9C213A68B5/
Best regards
Thierry
Yes or one could use the Sinar Artec Shade system. There are options and everyone can choose the own. I just realy love how the bellow of the Arca works and I find it better than the Linhof System.