Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: billthecat on February 27, 2011, 02:26:20 am
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Hi,
I got an old Phase One PhotoPhase scanner for 4x5. The problem is that I get lines on the image always in the same spot. The seller thinks that it is a static electricity problem. I bought a scanner & monitor anti static cleaning liquid and used a lot of it twice to clean the sensor, and I still get exactly the same lines after cleaning. You can see in the image.
Does anyone know what the problem is? Is it still a static problem? Is there something wrong with the sensor that can't be fixed? The seller said that it was working perfectly before shipping.
Thanks,
Bill
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Hi,
I don't know if it's the same for you, but with my P45+ i had some problems, sometimes a line appeared in the same position, not the same line of your device, sometimes the back couldn't star up and so on. I sent my back to PhaseOne and they did a service check. My back is just came back and it seems to be in perfect working order...
They told me that for a good care of my back i should send it to them once every 12-18 months for a service check...
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Thanks. I assume PhaseOne would charge me more than I would want to pay as I was trying to be budget here. The seller still says that static looks like the problem so I'll try more stuff with anti static this afternoon and see if that helps.
Bill
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I also tested a Photophase i got yesterday , a great back BTW but never had such bad image as that with any Phase scanback. The entire image is smurred with pink lines.
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I'd like to see how you fix it. When I apply extreme contrast to my image I can see a lot of hidden lines across all across.
Bill
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Hi Bill, I meant i never had such a bad image as yours with any of my scanbacks from 1996 until now. I think there is more going on than only static. You work on a macwith decent scsi card?
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Hi Peter,
It is a PhotoPhase Plus. I'm using a Windows XP SP3 notebook with an Adaptec 1460D card. The computer and software appear to work fine.
I bought an anti static scanner cleaner and put that on my PecPads for cleaning. I went to the bathroom with better grounding and no carpet but the line is just as before. I also touched a water pipe and tried to discharge anything else from the camera. The main thing is it's unchanging nature.
Here's what the seller said:
hi bill, sorry to hear the artifact is still there - it did take a while
before it went away for me. Do you have carpet? Sometimes that produces
static. What I would do would be clean the sensor then after the ribbon has
returned "home" on the worm gear I'd load the back into the camera but I
wouldn't drop the slide - I think this is where the static comes from - I
just placed the back in the camera with the slide open. My wife reminded me
that this exact situation was what I encountered when I first set up (she
has a much better memory than me).
Bill
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Without a knowledgeable dealer or previous personal experience with these systems trying to figure this out is going to be very challenging unless you're lucky and it's one of the easy answers.
If the unit requires repair you should know that Phase One will not be able to help you as they have end-of-lifed the SCSI based scan backs which means limited support and no repairs. Phase has a long history of support of their legacy products and in this case the SCSI based scan backs were supported for 14 years after introduction. By the way, the FX series (which is firewire based) is still fully supported; they are definitely a niche/specialized tool but we still several every year, including the support/instruction/installation of the system. To be clear however Our company hasn't sold a SCSI based system at least in the last three years (and maybe never).
Lines in scanback images can come from variation in voltage on the power source, from 60hz interference on the power source, from bad electronics, from unclean filter glass, from flicker of the light source, variation in the light source, etc etc etc.
The most common I came across were non-continous light sources like halogen. To test this simply use a source like tungsten or a sunny day to expose and see if the lines are still there. This normally produces much thinner lines (e.g. single pixel wide). Not to mention that if the lines are in the same place every image, and you've already *thoroughly* cleaned the filter glass (and the lines did not change meaningfully before and after the cleaning), I fear that is not the issue and it may be a mechanical issue (not a terrible surprise for a back that is probably 12-15 years old). The static explanation doesn't ring any bells for me for lines that are the same in each image and based on your test in the bathroom seems further to indicate it's not likely.
Good luck!
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) ([email protected])
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"Lines in scanback images can come from variation in voltage on the power source, from 60hz interference on the power source, from flicker of the light source, variation in the light source, etc etc etc." and mostly run in the other direction, 90degree on the running path of the scanback, iow horizontal.
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Doug,
Thanks for the info.
All the lines are in the direction of the scan. And they are the same in each image. If the light source was flickering I'd assume that it would make lines perpendicular to the scan. I have used tungsten and halogen. I have no problems from perpendicular lines.
I've been cleaning many times. I'd expect some kind of change from my cleaning but there has been no change.
The seller says he still suspects static and had the same problem before.
Every single picture has the same lines. I have attached a photo from my bathroom with tungsten lighting that I made tonight.
Bill
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Anyone interested in starting a small "scanback user group" to share our expreiances. I use a Studiokit, a photophase, just sold my Powephase and someone is interested in my Betterlight back. So we are at least 4 persons using them over here. Just an idea of mine.... ;) ::) ::) ::)
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I don't think this problem has anything to do with static or the electronics of the back. The lines in the image are most probably caused by stubborn dust/dirt on the sensor surface. You should be able to see this if you aim a hard light at an angle at the sensor. You will notice that the lines are most visible in the brighter parts of the image. One easy way to trouble-shoot this is to shoot an evenly lit surface. If there is dirt/dust on the sensor, the lines will be visible throughout the length of the image. Betterlight recommends using Eclipse with Pec-Pads to clean the sensor if necessary. On the Phase One User Forum, there used to be a section for scanback users. You might want to take a look there. I have been using a Betterlight for over five years now, so there are at least five of us.
Kumar
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Yes, starting a scanback group would be a good idea!
Doug
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I would be willing to chime in, as I have a Power Phase and also have quite some problems with vertical thin lines
appearing at random locations (but most and easily visible in dark areas) throughout the whole image. Here an
(amplified) example:
http://www.pbase.com/kds315/image/132967004/original.jpg (http://www.pbase.com/kds315/image/132967004/original.jpg)
(http://www.pbase.com/kds315/image/132967004/large.jpg)
That was shot correctly exposed (in the green range of the exposition slider of the SW that came with it) using a 250Watts HMI
daylight lamp.
What I found while searching the net was (emphasis by me):
Vertical lines are due to certain CCD cells not responding properly, and that "bad spot" is moved down the page by the carriage motor, making streaks. The problem can be due to dust inside the scanner, on the CCD or mirrors, blocking light from reaching the CCD, and these tend to be dark lines (perhaps dark in only one of the RGB channels) and relatively few in number. The problem can be defective electronics in the scanner, and these lines often appear as red, green or blue lines (stuck on), and sometimes in great numbers or width.
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Hello,
I worked for a lot of years with that model. Very reliable. What you see is most probably dust on the sensor. There is a mode in the software to clean the back. (I haven't used it in three years. Sorry I forgot exactly where is was...) When this mode is turned on, the sensor becomes visible. You can then clean it with any sensor cleaning fluid and tissue (Kimwipes).
Do it once and try your back. Never use the tissue twice or clean the sensor in two passes. If there is some dust left, do it again. By the quantity of dust that seems to be on the sensor, you may need to do it 3-4 times...
I hope it helps. Good luck.
Andre
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Thanks Andre, I'll give it a try.
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I've cleaned mine 4 times. The cleaning mode moves the sensor to the middle for cleaning, while it's usual resting spot is behind the metal plate.
Using a longer shutter speed has reduced the effect, but there are still lines. The seller has said that with him it went away. I'll try it again tonight. I tend to think it is not dirt as the seller claims no dirt and his last scan is perfect. After cleaning I don't see any change, but a change with shutter speed.
I've been using PacPads and Eclipse as well as a anti static scanner cleaner.
Bill
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Did you shoot an evenly lit surface like I suggested?
Kumar
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I didn't shoot an even surface, I shot a flower with sunlight in the morning. The lines haven't changed with any photo I have taken, but with a dark area you can't see them and it is less with the slow shutter speed. I'll take more photos soon, perhaps not tonight as I'm a bit behind.
Bill
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Trying the camera at the slowest shutter speed the lines seem to be getting a bit better on their own, but they are still there. Anyway, I've given up and put the camera for sale. The seller wouldn't take the camera back saying that it was sold as is, but I wasn't told of the line problems when I bought it.
Here's my last full sized image, only rotated and saved as JPEG. A daylight florescent bulb is the main light, with room halogens. It's really bad lighting but all I had at the time. I assume that is the reason the color is so bad.
http://buaya.us/PhotoPhasePlusForSale/LastPhotoPhasePlus.jpg
Bill
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Hi,
these stripes are normal with the old scanning backs. I worked with Powerphase and Photophase and both had them.
Stripes in scanning direction are sensitivity problems with the ccd line. Some pixels dont see all colors the same way.
Of course you have to clean the ccd line before.
Unfortunatly Phaseone doesnt have a calibration routine, that eliminates the problems. (every flatbed scanner does)
So you can only get rid of the stripes in Photoshop.
At the version of that time gues 3 or 4 there was a neat filtertool you could do real filter maths with and substract the stripes in each color.
Based on a grayscale scan.
You can see all the problems in your ccd line if you scan solid gray. You can see the lines in all different colors then.
Try different grays (lighter / darker) and you will see where you have to be carefull.
But look these backs are really old over 15 years now. They are completly old fashion.
There are still some guys running around telling how superb these backs are ..............
As resolution isnt an issue anymore they now say that they have better color rendering....
Even for reproduction, they are outperformed by every newer back.
Would you believe someone telling windows 95 or a 15 year old flatbed scanner is superb ?
Simply sell it at ebay, thats where madness gathers.
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Thanks for the advice.
My personal interest is in having an almost 4x5 digital camera, but the image quality is not up to what I had expected. I'll try Ebay.
Bill
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Sorry Josef, but this is pure nonsense. I have had 4 scanbacks of wich i still own 3. One was sold to a member here on LL that experianced those red, bleu and green lines. I was very sad to here that and invited him over to me to find out what went wrong. As we made test images here it appeared that nothing was wrong with the scanback. I severely examened my other backs for stripes and errors, even postponed a planned selling of them but could not find any trace of errors etc. So maybe there have been units that had problems but all the photographers i know still using them, as myself do not have seen those errors. There are many things that can go wrong, not just the back.
Secondly, a scanback is far from obsolete. It still is a unique performer in terms of rendering and use of optics. They were developed in close cooperation with Pre-press suppliers and companies. Therefore they deliver an image that of all digital devices has the most filmisch look of them all. They give an image that special film look, filmisch grain and feel that no IQ180 or Leaf80Mp will ever be able to do. Also they are the only devices that have at least full frame 6/6cm on a hasselblad 500cm, even bigger on a TC giving you optical possibillities unseen with modern backs. They also force you to work on a different way wich for many of us can be a blessing. An image will be certainly more thought of before taking the pictue, pressing the button.
And the greatest thing about them is they cost almost nothing. For a real creative photographer, someone who knows where to use a tool for and how tho express himself it stil is an unsurpassed device. I agree that for most photographers that shoot 957 images an hour just to select one reasonable image out of them it is absolutely not the tool of choice.
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Well funny again. Its allways the guys that want to sell them say how fabuolose they are.........
I never found one who tested it said that they a are superb.
I had to work with them at a time as nothing better was available but I dumped mine as soon as multishot backs where availabel.
The setup with lighting is kind of annoying it kills all creativity.
"They were developed in close cooperation with Pre-press suppliers and companies." ???
right Peter 15 years ago like my win 95 Laptop with Photoshop 2.5
There are differneces in how strong these color stripes are depending on the quality of your ccd line but all backs I had seen had them.
The Powerphase had less than the Photophase.
Peter, please take a sollid grey field in different shades and you will see them. Especially in dark tones.
Its just old CCD s. They had trouble getting better quality in this resolution at that time.
So, no need to get personal and defence 15 year old computer technology unless you want to sell it.......
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Josef, it is not about getting personal, it is about explaining that for some people some features of old equipment can and do have merits. On most fora all importance goes to the ultimate quality one can achieve with a 80Mp sensor to have the image ultimately printed at 10/15 centimeters. I do not say these backs are better or as good as my H3dII-39 MS, but they do have features the Hasselblad does not have: one of them is usng them on a TC with beautifull out of focus. People who buy a scanback these days do not so for quality but to make a different kind of images, to use your TC again, to get that great soft feeling from an old Petzval lens etc. If you want ultimate quality, go get a leaf 80Mp, try to find a lens that is up to that resolution and make money (after dropping 50k). If you for a bit of money want to enjoy making images with a scanback: go ahead.
I also love making collodium images, they aren't sharp, do mis a lot of tonality but look just great and still arent possible do do with any digital back.
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Sounds better now, so we are doing art with old fashioned equipment. Thats fine I do this sometimes as well.
But the image quality of these backs is far away from ultimate quality.
Even if you overlook the stripes. Everybody will figure it out after working with them.
The technology is intersting of course, but the old ccds are bad - thats a fact.
There are some techy guys in Japan on the web hacking a new Epson scanner with a new !!!! CCD line.
Just a 90$ scanner. But it has an up to date ccd line.
And they are getting really outstanding image quality on a big scanning area, due to newer image sensors.
Hopefully some company will pick up the idea and supply as all with affordable new scanning technology so the old stuff can
go in the museum, where it belongs.
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I'm not sure about the Phase One scanbacks, but the Betterlight still holds its own. It is obviously not suited for all applications, but for architecture, interiors and landscapes, it does a great job. For those of us who like to work at a slower pace, it is an absolutely amazing tool.
Kumar
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Here one sample pictures:
captured with Powerphase FX (6300 x 4300 pixel; full resolution would be 10600 x 12500) and cambo wide with SA 47 XL
f16, 1/125 linetime
I think the image quality and resolution is better than 4x5" film.
of course you have some limitations with the scanback.....
... but for architecture photography it´s a great tool.