Luminous Landscape Forum
Site & Board Matters => About This Site => Topic started by: dreed on February 21, 2011, 11:16:19 pm
-
In the recent article on this website, there was a click through to purchase and download a PDF that contained additional information about where to go to take photos around Teton National Park. It's price, $9.95. By comparison, at Yosemite National park in the Ansel Adams gallery, you can buy a small book for the same price and for the same purpose: a guide on how/where to take photos around Yosemite National Park. Looking on Amazon.com, I find (for example), this:
Photographers Guide Yosemite (http://www.amazon.com/Photographers-Guide-Yosemite-Michael-Frye/dp/1930238002/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1298347032&sr=8-6)
When I saw the price for the PDF, my mind immediately jumped to having seen that book at Yosemite for the same price and compares. 1 PDF vs 1 book. The value of the PDF failed to register.
Undoubtedly I can see a shift to more electronic product being produced, but I can't help but wonder whether or not there's still lots of experimentation to do with understanding what the correct price for electronic goods is, especially when comparisons can still be made to physical ones.
-
You are not buying a computer file or a printed book, you are buying information. The question is simple, is the information equally valuable to you? Do you get as much value out of the Teton info as you get from the Yosemite info?
Rich
-
You are not buying a computer file or a printed book, you are buying information. The question is simple, is the information equally valuable to you? Do you get as much value out of the Teton info as you get from the Yosemite info?
Rich
Rich, that's plausible but rather simplistic; a book is for ever and, try as the electronic tribes might to deny this, the tactile qualities of a book will always be more rewarding than anything on a cold, impersonal screen.
Rob C
-
Rich, that's plausible but rather simplistic; a book is for ever and, try as the electronic tribes might to deny this, the tactile qualities of a book will always be more rewarding than anything on a cold, impersonal screen.
Rob C
Maybe, but trees that didn't die in the process of producing books are cheering for pdf. :)
As for usability, I could argue both ways; I can put a pdf on my phone and thus carry one item less on a hike, but a book won't fail to open when the batteries run out.
-
Given that there are no printing, publishing and distribution costs a pdf should be cheaper and that is reflected throughout the ebook industry.
-
Given that there are no printing, publishing and distribution costs a pdf should be cheaper and that is reflected throughout the ebook industry.
This may or may not be true, Ben, I don't know, but at the end of the day the author(s) has the choice of pricing as he pleases, and that's his privilege and divine right. One must vote with one's feet or wallet, whatever strikes the mood at the moment of buying frenzy. Fortunately, I now suffer few frenzies, but can remember a time...
There's something that instinctively rubs my grain the wrong way with these apple/orange deal complaints; rather would I kick ass of those that sell things that are exactly the same - i.e. downloads for image manipulation programmes - at very different prices depending on the country where the innocent live. Now those are valid comparisons and points of pain!
Rob C
-
Maybe the PDF price is fair and the book price is a real steal.
-
There's something that instinctively rubs my grain the wrong way with these apple/orange deal complaints; rather would I kick ass of those that sell things that are exactly the same - i.e. downloads for image manipulation programmes - at very different prices depending on the country where the innocent live. Now those are valid comparisons and points of pain!
I wonder which company that may be? Ah yes, the one that claims there is a justification in the different costs of doing business in different areas and that used to invoice everything from a certain European tax haven (now half broke) anyway, while providing tech support (essentially useless) from a certain crowded location on another continent. :)
I have voted with my wallet and stopped updating my 10 or so licenses for their products. But I took some pleasure going around their restrictions with a simple SSH tunnel located on a third continent the last time I upgraded.
Note: most of the kindle books I have purchased have been more expensive than their tree-based counterparts. It's a matter of convenience and immediate satisfaction I guess. And while I a a book lover (two libraries, wall to wall, in the house) I couldn't help notice the kindle was easier on my back when I moved last year...
-
The best current translation into English of Tolstoy's "Anna Karenina" is undoubtedly the one by Pevear and Volokhonsky (2004).
Amazon currently lists the paperback edition (which we have) for $11.56 (list price $17.00) and the Kindle edition for 99 cents (we have that, too).
Other translations old enough to be out of copyright cost various amounts for the printed book version and $0.00 for the Kindle version.
Interesting.
Eric
-
You are not buying a computer file or a printed book, you are buying information. The question is simple, is the information equally valuable to you? Do you get as much value out of the Teton info as you get from the Yosemite info?
Rich
I'll do my best to provide a summary of each (from memory):
$9.95 bought 10 extra "locations" (~$1/location) to shoot the Tetons from. If the free information was anything to go by, it is/was predominately about what's good at sunrise.
The $9.95 book on Yosemite covered not only locations, but features and seasons. Yosemite being Yosemite, sunrise is very difficult and sunset is challenging. Thus for the book to be worthwhile, it covered all manner of subjects without dwelling on the sunrise/sunset problem.
-
I'll do my best to provide a summary of each (from memory):
$9.95 bought 10 extra "locations" (~$1/location) to shoot the Tetons from. If the free information was anything to go by, it is/was predominately about what's good at sunrise.
The $9.95 book on Yosemite covered not only locations, but features and seasons. Yosemite being Yosemite, sunrise is very difficult and sunset is challenging. Thus for the book to be worthwhile, it covered all manner of subjects without dwelling on the sunrise/sunset problem.
Ah the digital age... photography by numbers.
Rob C
-
Snip/.....the tactile qualities of a book will always be more rewarding than anything on a cold, impersonal screen.
Rob C
+1 Rob. Try as I might, reading is just not the same for me on a computer screen.
-
+1 Rob. Try as I might, reading is just not the same for me on a computer screen.
And apart from anything else, there's nowhere to put the fancy bookmark!
;-)
Rob C
-
It is handy to have a catalogue in digital format as it makes searching and referencing easier.
Having said that however I rather have a printed format when the book is well indexed.
No one can convince me otherwise, reading a book and putting pen to paper is more natural than using a PC.
That says a lot if you consider that I'm a machine programmer (and I use recycled paper for my scribbles).
If the book is sold at the same price for the same thing.. then take the book I'd say.
For the "save trees" idea (good principle) to really have punch the electronic version should be cheaper.
A cheaper price may actually encourage more to buy it rather then copying it from a friend.
That is my 2c.
-- Will
-
And apart from anything else, there's nowhere to put the fancy bookmark!
;-)
Rob C
Rob,
You simply glue it to your computer screen. ;D
Eric
-
Rich, that's plausible but rather simplistic; a book is for ever and, try as the electronic tribes might to deny this, the tactile qualities of a book will always be more rewarding than anything on a cold, impersonal screen.
Rob C
Rob,
Did you know that the e-ink screens of the e-book readers are not transmissive like the screen of a computer monitor? They use no power, until you turn the page, and are just as easy on the eyes as the printed page.
It's true the e-book reader is not as tactile in the hands as a paper book, and therefore does not have the disadvantages of a tactile medium.
I bought my first e-book reader about a year ago when I was temporarily one-handed as a result of breaking my wrist in a fall. Have you ever tried reading a book and turning the pages with one hand?
I chose the Kindle DX because of its larger screen and higher resolution. I understand that some folks in the USA download the morning newspaper into their Kindle DX, and read it on the train to work.
The advantages of the e-book reader over the tactile, tree-consuming book, are so numerous and significant I would use the analogy of a modern DSLR compared with an old-fashioned film camera.
In fact, I think the advantages of the e-book reader may be greater than the scope of that analogy. You can change the font size to suit your eyesight, turn the book upside-down so the controls are on the left instead of the right, and eat a bag of chips whilst reading, turning the pages so easily with the clean left hand.
As for bookmarks; no need of them. The Kindle DX automatically resumes to the page you were last reading when you switched it off.
To use a cliche', this truly is the best invention since sliced bread. Do yourself a favour, Rob, and make reading in your old age a hundred times easier. I assure you the operational manual for the Kindle DX is not even remotely as thick as the D700 manual. ;D
-
Ray, I'm glad to hear that you like using the Kindle but the question at hand is, what sort of prices are you willing to accept for electronic content?
If a best seller is on the shelves in hardback only at $30, would you pay $30 for an electronic copy? Or would you be expecting it for substantially less?
If the Wall Street Journal online subscription cost was the same as that for the printed edition of the New York Times and had a small fraction of the content, would you still buy the online version of the WSJ?
-
To use a cliche', this truly is the best invention since sliced bread. Do yourself a favour, Rob, and make reading in your old age a hundred times easier.
I have always wondered....what was the best invention before sliced bread? ::)
-
If a best seller is on the shelves in hardback only at $30, would you pay $30 for an electronic copy? Or would you be expecting it for substantially less?
Sure. If I thought the content and convenience of electronic distirbution was worth $30- It doesn't matter if someone else can get it cheaper or if it's available in another format for the same price or less or more. If the offered content and delivery seems reasonable at the price, then it's reasonable at the price without reference to anything else.
If the Wall Street Journal online subscription cost was the same as that for the printed edition of the New York Times and had a small fraction of the content, would you still buy the online version of the WSJ?
Maybe, but there's a good chance I wouldn't find it to be acceptable value for the content if it, "had a small fraction of the content".
-
I have always wondered....what was the best invention before sliced bread? ::)
Likely bread itself and before that beer, without which there would have been no bread.
-
Ray, I'm glad to hear that you like using the Kindle but the question at hand is, what sort of prices are you willing to accept for electronic content?
If a best seller is on the shelves in hardback only at $30, would you pay $30 for an electronic copy? Or would you be expecting it for substantially less?
If the Wall Street Journal online subscription cost was the same as that for the printed edition of the New York Times and had a small fraction of the content, would you still buy the online version of the WSJ?
Dreed,
It depends on the DRM situation (Digital Rights Management). This seems rather complicated to me and a bit off-putting, so all the books I've downloaded so far are copyright-free and price-free, from websites such as Project Gutenberg.
I understand the purpose of the DRM is to prevent copying, printing and sharing the ebook, which is fair enough. Authors sometimes struggle to make a living.
The PDF Guide to the Grand Teton National Park, as I understand, is printable, so that makes a difference. It's very tedious making a copy of a book, scanning or photocopying each page. I'd much prefer to have the work in a PDF format.
Of course, I understand your concern. If you are off to the Grand Teton with your $50,000 MFDB plus another $20,000 worth of fine lenses, you might feel a little ripped-off paying $9.95 for a PDF guide which you think should be less because you found a real book guide for a completely different national park for the same price ;D .
-
.. Authors sometimes struggle to make a living..
I have read much on forums to the influence of the digital age on professional photographers who make a living from their trade.
Professions like movie makers, musicians and book authors are in much the same boat struggling for survival as photographers.
But what about all those professions that previously "printed" these works (film printing, music CD's, book print & bind ++).
Yet I have the feeling that "distributors" rather have much more to gain.
This PDF vs the book is such an example.
For the PDF version the book binding and distribution was bypass.
Somehow I doubt that the author gains from it.
The PDF version should cost way less.
IMHO
-- Will
-
I don't understand this whining about the cost of pdf vs book. The information is either worth what the price is or not. If it is, then how it's provided is unimportant.
As far as pricing this goes, the price is set to ensure that everyone involved (author, publisher, bookstore, etc.) is compensated for their effort. The price is basically set based on an estimate of how many copies will be sold. A printed book, such as the Yosemite book in question here, is expected to sell over 10,000 copies and is priced accordingly. The author's compensation is a little bit from a lot of sales.
On the other hand a pdf offered on the internet from the author's site will probably sell a few hundred or so copies. So if the author figures he needs to make a few thousand dollars for his effort, he has to price the file at about $10 or more.
The idea that there are no costs involved in providing a pdf is wrong. Many of the costs of getting a book ready to publish are the same for a pdf or hard copy. The book has to be edited, formatted, etc. The actual printing costs are a small fraction of the total price--perhaps $1/book or less depending on the size of the book and the print run. So the cost savings by not having to print the book are really small.http://www.baen.com/FAQS.asp (http://www.baen.com/FAQS.asp) has a short discussion of printing costs for those interested.
Les
-
Of course, I understand your concern. If you are off to the Grand Teton with your $50,000 MFDB plus another $20,000 worth of fine lenses, you might feel a little ripped-off paying $9.95 for a PDF guide which you think should be less because you found a real book guide for a completely different national park for the same price ;D .
Haha! Well put! If my total trip to the Tetons is going to cost $2000-$5000, then what is another $9.95?
The point is perceived value for money.
-
The point is perceived value for money.
The irony here is that photographers perceive that tangible property must have greater value than intellectual property...it may be that physical things can have a higher cost but cost is not the sole determination of value. While you may WANT PDFs and other electronic delivery of intellectual property to be cheaper but the true value of IP is what you are prepared to pay for it. Not the costs of production. The irony here is that for years photographers have tried to the value of images based on the images, not the costs of the production of the images.
-
The irony here is that photographers perceive that tangible property must have greater value than intellectual property...it may be that physical things can have a higher cost but cost is not the sole determination of value...
Aha!!!
Jeff, you touched a pet peeve of mine: every time I visit an art fair and see photographers (or other graphic artists) sell their prints by offering them framed and unframed, and I see that they sell their print for less (or at best the same) than the cost of framing, I can not help being perplexed by the inherent logic: dead wood, paper, glass, etc. is valued higher than the image they are supposed to frame!?
-
The irony here is that photographers perceive that tangible property must have greater value than intellectual property...it may be that physical things can have a higher cost but cost is not the sole determination of value. While you may WANT PDFs and other electronic delivery of intellectual property to be cheaper but the true value of IP is what you are prepared to pay for it. Not the costs of production. The irony here is that for years photographers have tried to the value of images based on the images, not the costs of the production of the images.
Is it really just photographers? Look at the pricing of songs on iTunes ($0.99). When CD singles were available (and some still are), they were always $5 and above. Similarly, when you look at how the pricing of other media being delivered via the Internet is priced vs "hard copy", the Internet form is always cheaper. So my proposition is that your remarks about perception of tangible property having greater value holds true for the population at large, not just photographers.
-
Hi,
Can you click on an image in the book and get maps and GPS coordinates?
Best regards
Erik
In the recent article on this website, there was a click through to purchase and download a PDF that contained additional information about where to go to take photos around Teton National Park. It's price, $9.95. By comparison, at Yosemite National park in the Ansel Adams gallery, you can buy a small book for the same price and for the same purpose: a guide on how/where to take photos around Yosemite National Park. Looking on Amazon.com, I find (for example), this:
Photographers Guide Yosemite (http://www.amazon.com/Photographers-Guide-Yosemite-Michael-Frye/dp/1930238002/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1298347032&sr=8-6)
When I saw the price for the PDF, my mind immediately jumped to having seen that book at Yosemite for the same price and compares. 1 PDF vs 1 book. The value of the PDF failed to register.
Undoubtedly I can see a shift to more electronic product being produced, but I can't help but wonder whether or not there's still lots of experimentation to do with understanding what the correct price for electronic goods is, especially when comparisons can still be made to physical ones.
-
Hi,
Can you click on an image in the book and get maps and GPS coordinates?
Best regards
Erik
Dear Eric! Why on Earth would I want to do that? To plant a tripood in the same holes?
Enjoyed Vogue and Harpers and Nova and Pirelli for years without knowing more than country where the stuff was shot.
Rob C
-
Hi,
I happened to be the first buyer of that leaflet. In my view it's worth every penny. I plan to spend perhaps four days in that park this autumn, I don't have time for more. So I want to use that time as efficiently as I can.
Now, Miles could of course set any price on the PDF. He could even give them away for free. Making a book and distributing would be much more expensive, both for customers and vendor. There is also a shipping cost involved. Anything I buy from the US costs me 20-30 US$. So I save something like 20 box on downloading a PDF. I addition to that I would pay customs, sales tax on product shipment and handling. On top of that the Swedish post office would charge 15 dollars for handling all those taxes. So no, I don't complain about downloadable PDF.
Best regards
Erik Kaffehr
Dear Eric! Why on Earth would I want to do that? To plant a tripood in the same holes?
Enjoyed Vogue and Harpers and Nova and Pirelli for years without knowing more than country where the stuff was shot.
Rob C
-
Now, Miles could of course set any price on the PDF. He could even give them away for free. Making a book and distributing would be much more expensive, both for customers and vendor. There is also a shipping cost involved. Anything I buy from the US costs me 20-30 US$. So I save something like 20 box on downloading a PDF. I addition to that I would pay customs, sales tax on product shipment and handling. On top of that the Swedish post office would charge 15 dollars for handling all those taxes. So no, I don't complain about downloadable PDF.
If you're going to compare downloading PDFs with purchasing books, you should be comparing downloading PDFs with buying books in a local book store.
Suppose you went into the tourist information centre at Jackson Hole and there was a small book there on sale for $10 that was a guide to photography in and around the Grand Teton National Park. Given that, what value does a PDF such as the one you downloaded have?
Or maybe I can ask that question a different way: if you'll pay $10 for to download the PDF, how much would you pay to buy a physical book that was available locally?
-
Suppose you went into the tourist information centre at Jackson Hole and there was a small book there on sale for $10 that was a guide to photography in and around the Grand Teton National Park. Given that, what value does a PDF such as the one you downloaded have?
Or maybe I can ask that question a different way: if you'll pay $10 for to download the PDF, how much would you pay to buy a physical book that was available locally?
The question is apples and oranges unless you're comparing the exact same book available as a PDF and a physical book.
If the local book was exactly the same as the PDF I already downloaded, I wouldn't buy the local book. I do my research at home, not at the last moment in the field.
However - if the local book had better information than the PDF, I might be persuaded to buy it depending on my perceived value of the content.
The opposite is true, too, if the perceived content were not as good as the PDF.
Paul
-
Or maybe I can ask that question a different way: if you'll pay $10 for to download the PDF, how much would you pay to buy a physical book that was available locally?
Are you for real? I don't know about your local bookstore, but mine doesn't carry any guides on photography. Well, maybe on stitching.
And if I had to check two or more bookstores, it would cost me more in gas. Now, maybe some specialized book store in a far-away country could ship the book me, but that would cost more than the actual book.
-
Dear Eric! Why on Earth would I want to do that? To plant a tripood in the same holes?
Enjoyed Vogue and Harpers and Nova and Pirelli for years without knowing more than country where the stuff was shot.
Rob C
Rob,
I think some have missed the meaning of your post, right? You are really questioning why any photographer would want to visit a landscape location that has been photographed a million times before. What more is there to say on such a relatively static subject?
In defense, I would say that any landscape shot, however many times the scene been photographed, can be unique in terms of lighting, cloud formation, foliage differences due to seanonal changes, perspective, resolution and detail, dynamic range, tonality, and last but not least, post-processing rendition.
Nevertheless, I understand your point that a model, although photographed a million times by various photographers, can be positioned with various props in a huge variety of different environments, wearing different clothes and make-up, and encouraged to make different facial expressions and body positions to suit.
There would seem to be a wider range of creative possibilities when photographing models, although I might question whether the entire range of any model's facial expressions could compete with all possible cloud formations, ranging from bright blue sky to dark, foreboding, storm-brewing clouds with lighting flashes. ;D
-
Hi,
I was the first purchaser of Miles's booklet. I found it on his website by accident and put a payment for it.
I quite strongly disagree with your view on printed booklet vs. PDF. That said, in general I may prefer a printed book. On the other hand a PDF is better than "no book". Also a PDF is something you can store on your computer and always have with you. Another advantage with the PDF that it can be easily updated. Miles can add some more info, and it is just a download away.
There is another view, that Miles probably also wants his efforts on the booklet to generate some income. Would he make a printed book he would need to make arrangements with a printer and print a large number of booklets, making for a significant up front cost, before generating any income. Distribution would finally make up a large part of the cost of the printed book.
So I'd suggest that the PDF approach is actually quite optimal, both for vendor and most buyers.
Best regards
Erik
In the recent article on this website, there was a click through to purchase and download a PDF that contained additional information about where to go to take photos around Teton National Park. It's price, $9.95. By comparison, at Yosemite National park in the Ansel Adams gallery, you can buy a small book for the same price and for the same purpose: a guide on how/where to take photos around Yosemite National Park. Looking on Amazon.com, I find (for example), this:
Photographers Guide Yosemite (http://www.amazon.com/Photographers-Guide-Yosemite-Michael-Frye/dp/1930238002/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1298347032&sr=8-6)
When I saw the price for the PDF, my mind immediately jumped to having seen that book at Yosemite for the same price and compares. 1 PDF vs 1 book. The value of the PDF failed to register.
Undoubtedly I can see a shift to more electronic product being produced, but I can't help but wonder whether or not there's still lots of experimentation to do with understanding what the correct price for electronic goods is, especially when comparisons can still be made to physical ones.
-
Rob,
1. I think some have missed the meaning of your post, right? You are really questioning why any photographer would want to visit a landscape location that has been photographed a million times before. What more is there to say on such a relatively static subject?
facial expressions and body positions to suit.
2. There would seem to be a wider range of creative possibilities when photographing models, although I might question whether the entire range of any model's facial expressions could compete with all possible cloud formations, ranging from bright blue sky to dark, foreboding, storm-brewing clouds with lighting flashes. ;D
1. Yes, I was questioning the Mecca sense that seems to be prevalent in many snapper souls. Must admit to having had it too, though: that's what drew me to Paradise Island in search of Francis Giacobetti's aura... didn't find it - the shifting sands had swept it all away but, fortunately, the 'doctor' zephyrs brought me some of my own.
2. I would stick with the better actresses in preference to the natural expressions of nature. It's about the buzz of creative control: getting that pretty thing to give you the look you wish she would without the camera being there. Just realised: maybe it's all masturbation after all! And getting paid for it! That's a new departure for most of us. On the other hand, the buzz from getting the clouds to go just where you want them to must be pretty cool too; quite like Photoshopping, in fact.
Rob C
-
Are you for real? I don't know about your local bookstore, but mine doesn't carry any guides on photography. Well, maybe on stitching.
And if I had to check two or more bookstores, it would cost me more in gas. Now, maybe some specialized book store in a far-away country could ship the book me, but that would cost more than the actual book.
Your experiences with the prevalence of book stores is obviously quite different to my own.
-
Robert Hitchman of photographamerica.com charges the same price for a PDF or a printed newsletter. He's been in business 20 years. Incidentally, his price $8, is quite comparable to the PDF discussed by the OP. As for the Michael Frye book, it is an exceptional value, but one should not expect the same from any other publication, since it is simply the best location guide I've seen (as pointed out in http://terragalleria.com/blog/2011/01/18/instructional-books-micheal-frye/).
Regarding pricing of electronic media, the volume/price options are much more flexible than for printed media. Because of that, prices can vary widely. For instance, to cite an example I am familiar with, my publisher Fotopedia has been experimenting a lot with pricing since the National Parks App has been released (http://www.fotopedia.com/ios/national_parks), trying in less than two months $5 ($4.99), $4, $3, and even $1.