Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Lisa Nikodym on February 21, 2011, 10:45:50 pm
-
I've used Epson printers for years, and very rarely had any clogs, and those were easily fixed by one or two cleaning cycles. I now have a 3880 that has clogged much more often than those past printers.
My current problem...
The 3880 was printing perfectly fine yesterday. Today, suddenly *all* the inks have bad clogs; my first print test page, where you look for gaps in the test pattern to see if the printer needs a head cleaning, showed almost no ink lines at all. Four cleaning cycles later, several heads are printing *some* lines, but still with plenty of gaps, while several heads still aren't printing anything at all. How can all the print heads simultaneously go so bad? Has anyone else seen this happen? How was the problem finally resolved?
Thanks,
Lisa
-
I'm sorry to hear about your clogging mess, Lisa. I have never had any significant clogging on my previous 2200 or my present 3800. But I do remember reading a suggestion a few years ago (I forget where; it could have been on LuLa) that after a couple of cleaning cycles it is best to let the printer sit overnight so the ink can settle before you do another nozzle check.
The one time I was away from my 2200 for about two months it did seem to clog, but when it wouldn't unclog with a couple of cleanings, I did let it sit overnight and one more cleaning the next day fixed it right up.
It might not do it, but it's worth a try.
Good luck.
Eric
-
How can all the print heads simultaneously go so bad? Has anyone else seen this happen? How was the problem finally resolved?
The 38xx series printers have an excellent reputation for not clogging ever.
I'd guess the problem isn't clogging as such, but the nozzles not firing due to an electrical fault in the printer, maybe a loose ribbon cable somewhere ? I'd call Epson support and get it fixed under warranty.
Paul
(This assumes you're using genuine Epson inks and haven't head any head crashes on unsuitable media)
-
I agree... this does not sound like a clogging problem. There is a pump in the printer that keeps the ink under pressure. Perhaps it has failed. I would call Epson.
-
I agree... this does not sound like a clogging problem. There is a pump in the printer that keeps the ink under pressure. Perhaps it has failed. I would call Epson.
I agree you could have air in the lines. I have had similar problems as the OP with 9900 but it always goes away after a cleaning cycle or two.
-
it's almost always a waste of hair-pulling, ink and time to do multiple sequential cleanings. You're really best off waiting an hour between cycles.
-
If it really is clogs or air bubbles, and not another kind of technical problem, you should NOT do multiple sequential cleanings. This can aggravate the problem. Epson has recommended to me in such situations to do ONE cleaning cycle. Then run a print of a real image on any kind of cheap paper, then do a nozzle check. If it is still clogged, do a cleaning cycle, redo the nozzle check. If still not cleared up, run another print of a real image on cheap paper, then do a head-cleaning and a nozzle check. Repeat several times as necessary. If after all that the problem remains, call tech support.
-
I've now done a power cleaning cycle and another regular cleaning cycle, all a day apart, with regular prints and nozzle checks in between, and no joy. The last nozzle check showed only two out of eight inks printing at all. There's definitely something else, not just simple head clogs, causing this. Time for a call to Epson... (sigh!) This was a replacement printer for my previous 3880, which they replaced under warranty because the paper feed was broken (and had been since it arrived). I've had more problems with the 3880 in the last year than with my five previous Epson models (over about 15-20 years) combined...
Thanks for your suggestions. I hadn't known about letting it sit for awhile between cleanings, and doing regular prints in between. I'll keep that in mind for future minor clogs.
Lisa
-
Sorry to hear Lisa; I had a 3800 before I bought the 4900 and I was very, very pleased with its reliability. It performed much better than the previous models I had owned since 1999/2000. I think you have been unlucky twice over, but when it happens it happens; do let us know whether Epson sends you a new printer, as it seems they should if you are still in warranty.
-
Hi Mark -
Either I've been extremely unlucky with the 3880, or the build quality isn't what it used to be. Over the years I've used the 3800, 1280, 1520, and a couple more whose model numbers I forget, and the reliability has been fine until this one. I was a little nervous after the new one they sent me a few months ago (since my original one had a paper feed problem), since it was clear that it was used and refurbished, not new, and was concerned that I might have gotten someone else's "lemon". I'm hoping the next one isn't going to be a lemon too. Well, I'll give them another try....
I just got off the phone with Epson, and they are sending me a new unit under warranty. I asked the technician whether he had heard of this problem before, and he said "no". A minute later, he said, "No, that's not true, this happens when people aren't using Epson ink and Epson papers. What ink and paper are you using?" I use Epson inks, but Ilford Gold Fibre Silk paper, and was annoyed when he proclaimed, "That's your problem. You're using non-Epson paper. The fibers clog the heads." Despite my insisting that I've used it for several years with minimal (and very minor) clogs in my 3800 and 3880 up to now, and that I find it difficult to believe that the fibers can suddenly clog nearly all the heads at once after years without a problem, he had no explanation and kept insisting that the Ilford paper was the cause. He's probably told to say that to customers to try to shift the blame to someone besides Epson, and I don't believe it for a minute. Whatever, as long as they send me a working printer!
Lisa
-
Hi Mark -
Either I've been extremely unlucky with the 3880, or the build quality isn't what it used to be. Over the years I've used the 3800, 1280, 1520, and a couple more whose model numbers I forget, and the reliability has been fine until this one. I was a little nervous after the new one they sent me a few months ago (since my original one had a paper feed problem), since it was clear that it was used and refurbished, not new, and was concerned that I might have gotten someone else's "lemon". I'm hoping the next one isn't going to be a lemon too. Well, I'll give them another try....
I just got off the phone with Epson, and they are sending me a new unit under warranty. I asked the technician whether he had heard of this problem before, and he said "no". A minute later, he said, "No, that's not true, this happens when people aren't using Epson ink and Epson papers. What ink and paper are you using?" I use Epson inks, but Ilford Gold Fibre Silk paper, and was annoyed when he proclaimed, "That's your problem. You're using non-Epson paper. The fibers clog the heads." Despite my insisting that I've used it for several years with minimal (and very minor) clogs in my 3800 and 3880 up to now, and that I find it difficult to believe that the fibers can suddenly clog nearly all the heads at once after years without a problem, he had no explanation and kept insisting that the Ilford paper was the cause. He's probably told to say that to customers to try to shift the blame to someone besides Epson, and I don't believe it for a minute. Whatever, as long as they send me a working printer!
Lisa
What you heard about Ilford paper being the cause of the problem is complete and utter nonsense. I used that paper in my 3800 for years with no issues whatsoever. Epson technicians appear to be trained to feed this line of rubbish to customers when it becomes convenient to do so. If it were true, no one should buy these printers, because no manufacturer should make a printer which is only suitable for one brand of paper. In fact, Epson's manuals tells you how to configure the printer for third-party papers, so they expect people will do this. And when you think of the Epson line of papers - with all the variety of coatings and backings they have, they mean to tell you that the whole range is suitable for their printers, but Ilford paper isn't? I mean it's not as if we're feeding toilet paper through these machines. Gold Fibre Silk is a high-end finely manufactured product, as are a number of others in its class, and I would defy Epson to prove to me with real data that it sheds any more fibers or what-not on the printhead than ALL of their own papers would. I have also been fed this nonsense by Epson techs on occasion, and when I raised it with senior management there, I was emphatically told it's not true - the printers are supposed to function properly with non-Epson papers of comparable quality. Epson is harming its reputation if it is training its technicians to lie to customers.
-
I have a colleague, that once had some trouble with his 4880, running it with a RIP and Efi certified Proofing Paper,
and the Ep tech told him that warranty was "broken" with such a configuration. ???
This was some years ago, and today Epson have a LFP division (3880 and forward)
who take care and support in the very best ways.
At least here in Sweden.
/Sven
-
I second Mark's perspective about IGFS. I've never had much of a problem with it and have run through a lot of boxes (both 8 1/2 x 11 and 13 x 19). Additionally, it's a microporus luster surface paper and as such does not have much if any stray fibers on the surface (I always give any paper a quick brush with a horsehair brush) relative to most matte papers (I you really want a dusty paper try Hahnemuhle William Turner). What a dumb comment from Epson.
-
What a dumb comment from Epson.
It is not "dumb" at all. Most manufacturer's do exactly the same thing. It is a calculated ploy to get rid themselves of the blame for any failure on their part.
Thankfully, in the US there are laws preventing printer companies from claiming warranties are invalid if you use third party inks or papers unless they can PROVE the inks/papers were responsible.
Tom
PS: Although I will never own another Epson printer because of clogging issues with those I owned previously, I agree with all the posters above in that what you experienced was not "normal" clogging. The 3800 desktop printer has a pretty good reputation for not clogging.
-
To update everyone...
I just got a phone call from someone at Epson who apparently saw this thread, and reviewed my earlier phone call with the technician before calling me back. He apologized profusely for the earlier technician blaming third-party paper for my problem, and said he shouldn't have done it. He confirmed that my problem doesn't sound paper-related, but a malfunction of the printer.
As Mark said above (and Sven confirmed), one occasionally gets a technician who tells one rubbish.
And I am surprised that large companies like Epson look at forums like ours, and actually respond to them!
Lisa
-
To update everyone...
I just got a phone call from someone at Epson who apparently saw this thread, and reviewed my earlier phone call with the technician before calling me back. He apologized profusely for the earlier technician blaming third-party paper for my problem, and said he shouldn't have done it. He confirmed that my problem doesn't sound paper-related, but a malfunction of the printer.
As Mark said above (and Sven confirmed), one occasionally gets a technician who tells one rubbish.
And I am surprised that large companies like Epson look at forums like ours, and actually respond to them!
Lisa
This is a very re-assuring outcome Lisa, and glad it worked out this way. Please keep us abreast of the remedial action henceforth.
-
In regard to general problems with clogging I recently came across this site which has alot of very good info .
Yes, they promote their own products, but offer alot of very good general advice in links on the left side of the page.
Good links to some of the Epson Pro repair manuals also.
Makes alot of sense to me!
http://www.americaninkjetsystems.com/inkjet_printer_maintenance.html
-
This is a very re-assuring outcome Lisa, and glad it worked out this way. Please keep us abreast of the remedial action henceforth.
They're shipping me a replacement printer (under warranty).
Lisa
-
They're shipping me a replacement printer (under warranty).
Lisa
Very good.
-
I look forward to the next installment of this tale and hope it comes soon to a happy ending.
Eric
-
Nothing exciting, Eric. ::) The replacement printer arrived Friday, I set it up yesterday, it printed two test prints fine, and the broken one is now boxed up to return. Hopefully this will be the last time this happens!
Lisa
-
Great! As they used to say in Norway...
Best regards
Erik
Nothing exciting, Eric. ::) The replacement printer arrived Friday, I set it up yesterday, it printed two test prints fine, and the broken one is now boxed up to return. Hopefully this will be the last time this happens!
Lisa
-
Nothing exciting, Eric. ::) The replacement printer arrived Friday, I set it up yesterday, it printed two test prints fine, and the broken one is now boxed up to return. Hopefully this will be the last time this happens!
Lisa
That's the happy ending I was hoping to hear. Dull but pleasant. I also hope there won't be a sequel. ;)
Eric
-
If it really is clogs or air bubbles, and not another kind of technical problem, you should NOT do multiple sequential cleanings. This can aggravate the problem. Epson has recommended to me in such situations to do ONE cleaning cycle. Then run a print of a real image on any kind of cheap paper, then do a nozzle check. If it is still clogged, do a cleaning cycle, redo the nozzle check. If still not cleared up, run another print of a real image on cheap paper, then do a head-cleaning and a nozzle check. Repeat several times as necessary. If after all that the problem remains, call tech support.
Great advice, I have spent hours trying to clean cyan on the epson 9900. And then tried printing a job, only to find that I don't have a visible fault in the print.
-
Great advice, I have spent hours trying to clean cyan on the epson 9900. And then tried printing a job, only to find that I don't have a visible fault in the print.
I'm very interested that you mention Cyan in particular. Are you (and anyone else for that matter) detecting cyan-specific clogs in the x900 series printers after a period of non-use?
-
Of all the 9900 clogs, Cyan is 80%, Vivid Magenta 10% and the rest 10%.
In the same order for 11880, but much much fewer clogs.
Almost everything on the 99 was replaced six months ago, and the printer is fine after that.
But still some mysterious clogs. I thinks it's about low pressure and not a nozzle problem.
/Sven
-
You may well be correct about the low pressure hypothesis, but if true, one wonders why it should affect cyan more than the other channels. Another possibility of course could be differences of ink chemistry for the different colours.
-
Anyone checked the MSDS for HDR inks?
Alan The Chemist?
/Sven
-
Anyone checked the MSDS for HDR inks?
Alan The Chemist?
/Sven
Epson's secret sauce - I doubt even Alan the Chemist would know! :-)
-
Anyone checked the MSDS for HDR inks?
Alan The Chemist?
/Sven
LOL!!! The MSDS sheets are not terribly helpful as they really don't go into the kind of detail that would allow one to make a judgement. They all are listed here (http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/support/Supportmsdsmain.jsp). Basically the only information that is given is the %composition. Most everything important is claimed as proprietary and they don't have to identify things that are not toxic. I have created a spreadsheet that lists the 11 inks and it's pretty interesting (these are all for the 9900). Photo black and the two lighter blacks each use carbon black but not the matte black. The matte black has the highest level of pigments so if it was pigment concentration, one would expect this to be problematic (but maybe few people other than myself still print on fine art matte paper). Cyan and Vivid Magenta are next highest but Sven noted very high clog rates with Cyan which would be unexpected if it was the pigment level. The yellow ink has a small amount of ethylene glycol which is curious and may be an added agent to help the formulation.
I don't know the layout of that printer and whether all the ink lines are the same length. If they were different lengths that could also have an impact. My only conclusion is that we don't learn much from the MSDS information.
Alan
-
Epson's secret sauce - I doubt even Alan the Chemist would know! :-)
You are quite correct on this count; see my subsequent post!!! ;D
-
Paul Roark must have checked all the MSDS docs of all the Epson ink generations, he might be able to tell what is what.
It would surprise me if the matte black pigment isn't carbon too, so far it has been the most stable of all black pigments and has been used successfully in the K3, K2 inks.
Where in the head is the Cyan channel located ? Are the green and orange taking over substantial parts of the cyan and vivid magenta head work that the last too little to do?
Usually keeping printers/heads busy is the best remedy against clogs.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
New: Spectral plots of +250 inkjet papers:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
-
Paul Roark must have checked all the MSDS docs of all the Epson ink generations, he might be able to tell what is what.
It would surprise me if the matte black pigment isn't carbon too, so far it has been the most stable of all black pigments and has been used successfully in the K3, K2 inks.
I was surprised to see that as well. I just checked all of the other MSDS sheets that they have posted for other pro printers and the matte black ones are identical, <7% proprietary pigments. I don't think that this precludes the use of carbon black but it's curious that Epson do not separate it out as they do for the other three black inks.
-
Are the green and orange taking over substantial parts of the cyan and vivid magenta head work that the last too little to do?
Usually keeping printers/heads busy is the best remedy against clogs.
This is a very interesting angle Ernst. But in the first instance, I'm curious to know whether/to what extent specifically Cyan channel issues have been identified by users of the x900 series printers.
-
This is a very interesting angle Ernst. But in the first instance, I'm curious to know whether/to what extent specifically Cyan channel issues have been identified by users of the x900 series printers.
Correct, what we see here is anecdotal, hardly worth it to build a hypothesis on which of course will not withhold me to do so :-)
Compare the Z3100 with the Z2100 inkset, HP worries were not about clogging but on the Z3100 they didn't find it necessary to use two Cyan channels like they are used on the Z2100. The extra ink hues, green and blue (violet), taking over part of the Cyan's task. and in HP's view they could do without an extra Cyan channel and still have a nice gamut. One would argue that the Yellow head got less to do with Green and Orange available on both the HP and Epson but Yellow was never split in two but on some Canon dye desktop printers and can not be abandoned for obvious reasons.
On the Epson MK not described as carbon in the MSDS. If I recall it correctly the main part must be carbon pigment with some Epson tweaks that makes it proprietary.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
-
This is a very interesting angle Ernst. But in the first instance, I'm curious to know whether/to what extent specifically Cyan channel issues have been identified by users of the x900 series printers.
Mark,
I've had my 7900 since December, 2008. I've kept a log of every nozzle check and any other printer maintenance I've done since day one, and I can say from my data that the Cyan channel is by far most often the one missing a few nozzles when I start up the printer for a new printing session. Rarely will I have anything missing in any other channel, even after weeks of non-use in a few cases. I should also note that I print with Photo Black exclusively; the last time I did a PK/MK switch must have been over a year ago. Also, the vast majority of my printing is B&W (using ABW) so I'm not really using all the colors most of the time (except of course for the Cyan, Magenta and Yellow that is included in the ABW mix).
On a few occasions, I've seen the entire Cyan channel gone when doing that first nozzle check, but most often it is only a few nozzles, always at the bottom of the pattern, and sometimes in the middle of the pattern in addition to the nozzles missing at the bottom. A single CL1 clean in service mode on the Cyan/Magenta pair almost always takes care of the missing nozzles, although recently I had to do two CL1 cleans to get everything back.
Dave
-
Thanks Dave, good to know and also given the background of the detailed tracking you are doing. Lately I'm seeing a similar issue on my 4900 when it goes unused for a few days in a row, why I am canvassing for experience. It's either something generic to the x900 models, or its a problem on my printer, and given that many people don't bother reporting such incidents to tech support, I'm trying to help with the diagnosis.