Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: henrikfoto on January 18, 2011, 05:19:30 pm
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I am about to order an Arca Swiss Rm3d. In the last minute I was looking at the Hasselblad HTS.
Woult it do the job just as good for landscape-work?
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In my experience there is no SLR camera system you can buy which will outperform the quality of Schneider/Rodenstock glass on a tech camera. I would say the same thing if you asked to compare a tech camera with any other product (Phase/Leaf/Contax/Mamiya/Rollei etc).
This is primarily because of the optics when using a tech camera:
- very high quality lenses to start with
- the lenses are not restricted in design by a mirror box (very important aspect of wide angle lens design)
- no added optical elements to accomplish the tilt/shift
- lenses are used at their original magnification
- some lenses have very generous image circles (thought to be fair some barely cover the sensor)
Also a consideration: you can buy lenses all the way down to 23mm in the Tech camera world. The HTS has a magnification factor (for single frames - you can stitch to reacquire some or most of the wideness of the lens when stitching is possible) and only goes down to 28mm (which is a 42mm with an HTS). If you need (or might ever need) really wide angle this is a big consideration - if you don't need really wide angle then it's obviously not going to be very important.
Tech cameras are slower and require more skill and practice to work with than an SLR design. It's very possible for some users the trade off is not worth the additional quality. But you didnt ask about that - you asked about image quality so that is what I focused my post on.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) ([email protected])
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
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The problem I've seen with most Tech cameras beyond their insanely expensive price, is the very limited amount of shift and tilt available to the photographer. None of the wide lenses except the 32mm Rodenstock have much of an image circle. Tilt and swing? That requires a different lens board for the Cambo. I've never been able to find out how much extra that little item is.
No retrofocus lens can match the performance of a lens focused at its true focal length, but $13,000 for a Cambo RS with the 32mm Rodenstock and the TS mount is pretty steep, unless of course you have a LOT of that kind of work. When I shot architectural interiors on 4x5 with my 72mm Schneider XL, the pay for that work barely compensated the photographer for the large number of lights--strobe and tungsten--the stands, booms and lens/camera equipment required for this physically demanding work.
With the housing industry in decline, how many clients can a shooter hope to land to pay off a photographer's initial investment.
Using the 28mm lens, Hassie or Phase One/Mamiya, intelligently, finding camera angles that work with that setup, like
shooters did with the Hasselblad Super-Wide in days of yore, might be a better place to start.
Just a thought.
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Hi
You might want to check out this kit. It will probably cost less than juts buying an HTS.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280617516957&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT
Had one of these identical kits and sold it a few months ago for 3000 Euros so you might get a bargain.
Good luck
David
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I am about to order an Arca Swiss Rm3d. In the last minute I was looking at the Hasselblad HTS.
Woult it do the job just as good for landscape-work?
I am an architectural shooter who shoots landscapes for pleasure.
Doug is spot-on, as usual.I concur with all he says.
The Blad solution is severely compromised from both a IQ and practicality viewpoint.
The restricted angle of view is a severe limitation, particularly for landscapes. My most-used focal length is a 35mm on a P65+. The HST with a 28 doesn't even come close. If you are IQ driven, you won't be satisfied with the files. The combination is also dastardly heave and you will pay a high price lugging it in the field.
There are some valuable threads running on getDPI at the moment that you should look at.
The Arca is a great camera, but consider the Horseman, Cambo and (my fave) the Alpa STC before you make a decision.
Cheers,
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Hi
You might want to check out this kit. It will probably cost less than juts buying an HTS.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280617516957&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT
Had one of these identical kits and sold it a few months ago for 3000 Euros so you might get a bargain.
Good luck
David
For a landscape camera? You surely have a sturdier backpack than mine!! ;D
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For a landscape camera? You surely have a sturdier backpack than mine!!
;D
I wondered why my feet kept sinking into the ground??
Never used it for landscape (although it might have been nice to try it) - mostly used for architectural interiors for the short time I tried it.
Thanks for the laugh/
David
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I am an architectural shooter who shoots landscapes for pleasure.
Doug is spot-on, as usual.I concur with all he says.
The Blad solution is severely compromised from both a IQ and practicality viewpoint.
The restricted angle of view is a severe limitation, particularly for landscapes. My most-used focal length is a 35mm on a P65+. The HST with a 28 doesn't even come close. If you are IQ driven, you won't be satisfied with the files. The combination is also dastardly heave and you will pay a high price lugging it in the field.
There are some valuable threads running on getDPI at the moment that you should look at.
The Arca is a great camera, but consider the Horseman, Cambo and (my fave) the Alpa STC before you make a decision.
Cheers,
Without disagreeing that the 35mm/P65 is a great combination I think that an H4D-50/28mm is almost as good. I tend to use the 35mmHC and stitch images using a Really Right Stuff pano rail. This gives me the detail, IQ and image size that I want.
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I think he meant P65 + 35 schneider on his Alpa, but I could be wrong.
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I am an architectural shooter who shoots landscapes for pleasure.
Doug is spot-on, as usual.I concur with all he says.
The Blad solution is severely compromised from both a IQ and practicality viewpoint.
The restricted angle of view is a severe limitation, particularly for landscapes. My most-used focal length is a 35mm on a P65+. The HST with a 28 doesn't even come close. If you are IQ driven, you won't be satisfied with the files. The combination is also dastardly heave and you will pay a high price lugging it in the field.
There are some valuable threads running on getDPI at the moment that you should look at.
The Arca is a great camera, but consider the Horseman, Cambo and (my fave) the Alpa STC before you make a decision.
Cheers,
Does this come from a practical test of the HTS or otherwise?
What about the actual architecture and landscape photographers who are using this combination?
I was under the impression Landscape photographers did not restrict themselves to wide angle alone?
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The problem I've seen with most Tech cameras beyond their insanely expensive price, is the very limited amount of shift and tilt available to the photographer. None of the wide lenses except the 32mm Rodenstock have much of an image circle. Tilt and swing? That requires a different lens board for the Cambo. I've never been able to find out how much extra that little item is.
Schneider 43mm and 47mm both have huge image circles, Rodenstock 32mm and 28mm and Schneider 35mm have large image circles.
It would take you just a few minutes to call a competent Cambo dealer to ask them for a quote on any given lens with or without a TiltSwing mount. It's not a government secret. ;D
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) ([email protected])
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/") | RSS Feed (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
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Hi
I use the HTS with a H3d11 39 usually with an 80mm lens for stitching and it is completely flawless. I used the 28mm and max shift to get the top of a tower in but it went very very soft at the top, not my usual type of material so haven't tried since. Works great as 1.5 teleconvertor too, much better than my 2x convertor.
Shaun
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While not a response to using a HTS or Arca Swiss it does offer information on using a technical camera for landscape....
I've been using a Cambo WRS and P45+ now for several years now and I try to make my living shooting landscape. I've shot with a 24mm but soon found just too wide and very unforgiving on shifts and sold it. My primary lenses have been a 35mm, 72,, and 120mm Schneider. I can get great levels of movements on all these lenses particularly the 120 as it has a great image circle.
I've stopped using a dSLR Mamiya/Phase a long time ago and simply don't miss it. Shooting on a technical camera offers advantages and challenges. The major advantage in my own opinion is the lens quality. Among the challenges: slow setup, the need for a very sturdy tripod, and a deliberate mindset as to what you are doing. Using a TC is more challenging in the framing stages than a dSLR as you aren't looking through the lens and clicking the shutter - you end up using a viewfinder that sits on top of the body or a groundglass that even in the best conditions can be bloody awful (and upside down).
I wouldn't trade it for anything.
Cheers
Don
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My most-used focal length is a 35mm on a P65+. The HST with a 28 doesn't even come close.
Forgive me but WHY ON EARTH would you be comparing a 35mm lens on a P65 with a 28mm plus an HTS?? The HTS is designed to give you some front movements (that you don't have with your combo), if you just need wide angle the surely you would be comparing the 35mm with the 28mm. If I remember my maths correctly a 28mm is generally wider than a 35mm.
Nick-T
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I've been using a Cambo WRS and P45+ now for several years now and I try to make my living shooting landscape. I've shot with a 24mm but soon found just too wide and very unforgiving on shifts and sold it. My primary lenses have been a 35mm, 72,, and 120mm Schneider. I can get great levels of movements on all these lenses particularly the 120 as it has a great image circle.
Cheers
Don
How do you focus with the 120mm Schneider in the field, shooting landscapes?
ff
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Does this come from a practical test of the HTS or otherwise?
What about the actual architecture and landscape photographers who are using this combination?
I was under the impression Landscape photographers did not restrict themselves to wide angle alone?
Completely concur with what David has just said. On 3 field trips recently fewer than 5% of my total raw captures were on wide angle lenses. In fact many of my "panoramic images" were stitched images using my 210mm lens. IMO this technique produces a far better result than can be produced with a single image from any technical camera and a P65. Give me the portability (just) and ease of use of my Hasselblad any day over any view camera for landscape photography.
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I had exactly the same idea, and bought an H3dll 50 and the tilt shift adapter. Don't waste your money, its almost impossible to use without the camera being tethered, adds 1.5 maginifaction to the lenses and reduces the image quality. The back is also limited by the performance of the H lenses, much better to go with your original idea.
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My 1st attempts with HTS were terrible (out of focus, too much swing), it didn't take long to start getting it right though. I never tether for landscape with it, perhaps with my 210mm I would shoot a few extra frames in low light but you soon get the feel for it.
Shaun
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I had exactly the same idea, and bought an H3dll 50 and the tilt shift adapter. Don't waste your money, its almost impossible to use without the camera being tethered, adds 1.5 maginifaction to the lenses and reduces the image quality. The back is also limited by the performance of the H lenses, much better to go with your original idea.
Thank you! I am starting to think thats right.
But what about cameras like the P3 and X-act?
Aside from the weight, will they take the realy wide lenses?
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Thank you! I am starting to think thats right.
But what about cameras like the P3 and X-act?
Aside from the weight, will they take the realy wide lenses?
Hi Henrik,
I will also say there are plenty of people who say the opposite. Read above for example!
It takes a few sessions to get the feel for it. As Shaun says you tend to over compensate at first with regards to tilt settings when actually a couple of degrees makes a world of difference.
The argument that is compromises the lenses is nonsense. We wouldn't produce an accessory which ruined performance. The HTS was a long time in R&D and other solutions were discarded during this process to ensure quality would be paramount.
It is also the only adapter of its kind to read the settings (tilt shift and rotation) and use this in raw conversion to aid the final output quality.
David
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Thank you! I am starting to think thats right.
But what about cameras like the P3 and X-act?
Aside from the weight, will they take the realy wide lenses?
Doug's comment earlier in the piece sums up fairly nicely and the core point is the lens design between the SLR and the LF. They are completely different and therefore have different quality resultants.... It doesn't matter what you attach to it - it does NOT change the design specification and the physics.
Regarding P3 and X-act, only similiar system in comparison BUT with a wide-angle bellow with my then HR35mm and Digitar 47XL. I just find infinity focusing can be a challenge. The helical focus ring system camera is a breeze!
Reading from your wish list, do I gather that you NOT ONLY want movements but primarily needing to view your image ie ground glass albeit the LF tech cameras and HTS?
You might want to consider Sinar arTec - it has sliding back for viewing, VERY BRIGHT ground glass !!! and loupe has excellent magnification - ie critical focusing. The arTec has tilt/swing rise/fall and can take both Schneider/Rodenstock lens - and just about any MF DBs you can throw at it (? I think).
Good luck
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Henrik:
I have used all 3 and have many of them installed with all sort of P1 and Leaf backs.
The Xact2 and P3 are really great studio cameras. The wide angle lenses are the real issue. I was able to get a double recessed lens board for the Xact 2 and able to focus the 47mmXL with no big issues. 35mm XL was very hit or miss due to the focus adjustment on the rail as opposed to the focus method on helical focusing with Cambo Wide lenses.
For landscape work I think you will find the Xact2 and P3 to be big, bulky when trying to capture a early morning sunrise in the middle of a field or on the side of a mountain.
The tech camera are much more precise to focus on the wide angle lens such as 24XL,35XL,and 47XL and 23 and 43 Rodenstock. Cambo RS uses this method.
Arca Swiss RM3d is a much finer focus method which should be more precise than even the Cambo WIde Lenses. The camera is work of art. We have only be able to test it with 35mm Rodenstock HR but look forward to seeing more glass for it in a few weeks.
Chris Snipes
Sales Manager
Capture Integration
http://www.captureintegration.com
2010 Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More
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I use the Arca Swiss RL3D. I got it for the extra shift movement/focus and its about the same size as the Alpa Max. Now there is the new RM3Di which is the same size as the RM3D but has 5-10mm more movements.
With the RL3D I have 40mm Focal Plane fall and 10mm rise with 20mm either side for shift, which isn't much different to the F-Line 69 Compact I used to use.
focus wise, it is a dream. I use the 35HR and more recently the 35XL for the extra movement, the 28XL I'm sure will become the main workhorse for a lot of people. It's cheaper than the 28HR but still not cheap!!! I tend not to shoot wide all the time anyway, preferring the 47xl and 70mm combination.
You can't beat these lenses, and with the tilt/swing mount combo of the RL3D and RM3Di(not the RM3D which needs to be rotated for swing) the kit hasn't come up short on any work.
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I use the Arca Swiss RL3D. I got it for the extra shift movement/focus and its about the same size as the Alpa Max. Now there is the new RM3Di which is the same size as the RM3D but has 5-10mm more movements.
With the RL3D I have 40mm Focal Plane fall and 10mm rise with 20mm either side for shift, which isn't much different to the F-Line 69 Compact I used to use.
focus wise, it is a dream. I use the 35HR and more recently the 35XL for the extra movement, the 28XL I'm sure will become the main workhorse for a lot of people. It's cheaper than the 28HR but still not cheap!!! I tend not to shoot wide all the time anyway, preferring the 47xl and 70mm combination.
You can't beat these lenses, and with the tilt/swing mount combo of the RL3D and RM3Di(not the RM3D which needs to be rotated for swing) the kit hasn't come up short on any work.
I thought the RL3D was a 4x5 camera and the RM3D was medium format. Is that wrong?
Is the size and weight very different?
Henrik
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One of the biggest pitfalls of tilts and swings is to overtilt or overswing. If you tilted forward to get the foreground in focus,
the tower probably stuck up through the zone of sharp focus. The biggest thing a photographer must learn about tilt and
swing is to use them with restraint.
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Couple of questions
1-Are the most current crop of lenses (Rodenstock,Schneider) as prone to colorcast
issues when used on technical cameras as were previous generations in that they
require the second exposure with white plate to apply compensation corrections
from within the respective manufacturers software?
2-When using a Hasselblad HTS in shifted position is colorcast then introduced as
The lens is now positioned off-axis requiring an additional exposure with
white/opaque plate ?
Thanks,
Mark
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I thought the RL3D was a 4x5 camera and the RM3D was medium format. Is that wrong?
Is the size and weight very different?
Henrik
The idea with the RL3D was to make it larger, so that you if you wanted to you could use 5x4 sheet film, but it follows exactly the same principles as the Rm3D and as such is built for digital medium format. I guess Martin saw that the original Rm3d could use some modifications and so has produced the 3Di. In an ideal world I could perhaps want my RL3D to be a little smaller (I did bring this up with Martin on a few visits last year), but only because I tested the Rm3d for a month and that seems very compact by comparison. Weight isn't much difference though. Size measures 20 x 20cm.
Also, on a side note, I rarely use a ground glass anymore. I either use it tethered in a studio or when necessary, but the majority of the time I use the view finder to frame and use a Disto D5 to measure distances for any focus that isn't infinity.
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So the RL3d could also be used with a 4x5 scanning-back?
Henrik
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The argument that is compromises the lenses is nonsense. We wouldn't produce an accessory which ruined performance. The HTS was a long time in R&D and other solutions were discarded during this process to ensure quality would be paramount.
The only nonsense is saying that a teleconvertor will have no impact at all on the image quality of a lens. The only way it would be possible is if the lens without TC could out-resolve the sensor/back by the same factor as the magnification factor of the TC. Are you making that claim for your lenses?
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The only nonsense is saying that a teleconvertor will have no impact at all on the image quality of a lens. The only way it would be possible is if the lens without TC could out-resolve the sensor/back by the same factor as the magnification factor of the TC. Are you making that claim for your lenses?
"Compromise" is a very strong word Jeff.
I am making a claim that the HTS is an amazing versatile piece of kit bringing Tilt / Shift capabilities to an MF platform without the need to invest in additional technical camera equipment.
What is wrong with that?
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So the RL3d could also be used with a 4x5 scanning-back?
Henrik
I imagine so. It takes a typical Graflock type back.
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The HTS is an amazing piece, but in my opinion for landscape you need a 28mm with movements and in architecture a 23/24 with movements.
The HTS offers a 28 *1,5 = 42, thats not enough...
Michael
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My experience with the tilt shift adapter was very disappointing. The extensive tests I did using the 28 with no tilt or shift showed significant reduction of image contrast and sharpness. It was returned to Hasselblad. A technical view camera provides the most versatile camera movements and both Rodenstock and Schnieder digital lenses produce higher image quality using the same backs. It's a question of 'horses for courses' I now use a Linhof m679cs for landscape and cityscape work.
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Hi Nick,
How useful or how often do you find you needing the 40mm rise on the RL3D? I'm looking at this camera the RM3di as well as the Alpa Max and Cambo Wide Rs for a 80MP leaf.
Thanks
Michael