Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Stefan Fiedler on December 21, 2010, 04:31:36 am
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We have several dozens of "empty" Epson Stylus Pro 11880 ink cartridges. Actually they are not really empty but they cannot be used anymore because the printer does not allow any more printhead cleaning below a certain ink level. That seems to be around when 2% of ink is left. A cartridge contains 700ml, so 2% is 14ml but actually it seems to be more than that. We have had Epson LFP since the first Stylus Pro 9000 but none of them had so much unusable link left in an "empty" ink cartridge. Any remedies?
Regards,
Stefan
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Put them back in and print with them until they go empty and the printer actually stops printing.
The only thing that you cannot do with low carts is clean. Printing it will do. At least that's how my 7900 and 9900 work. I believe it is no different for the 11880.
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I have a bunch of them here too. and a 3880 that costs $55 for 80ml, so I'm going to buy some of those re-fillable 3880 carts, and transfer the ink from the 11880 ones into 3880 ones, use a chip reseter and carry on. This assumes I can work out how to get the ink from one to the other, and not over me!
weight is a great way to tell whats left. anyone know what a truly empty 11880 700ml cart should weigh?
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As Dan says put in a new cart to clean then go back to the old one and finish it off, sounds like you do a lot of printing so it should not be a problem.
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Even when the printer refused to print and the cart is said to be empty, there is still a tiny bit of ink there by design (you don’t want air bubbles and such in your hoses). But yes, print until the printer will go no farther and demands a new cartridge.
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Already said, my 11880 behave the same, just put the cart back and print until it stops.
/Sven
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As I understand it, the chips in ink cartridges do not measure the ink level in the cartridge, but nozzle firings.
Now, there are manufacturing tolerances in the print head, so a droplet which is supposed to be, say, 3 picolitres, might actually be a tiny bit more, or a tiny bit less. Epson has to be somewhat conservative, and assume that the droplets are on the large side of the tolerance, or else someone is going to find that the chip reports that there is still ink left, when there really isn't. There are a lot of nozzles, and a lot of firings, but stochastic averaging makes this method of ink calculation surprisingly accurate.
However, your particular printer might on average produce slightly larger, or slightly smaller droplets than the average printer. So you might find that the amount left in your cartridges when the printer says that they are empty, is consistently more than, or less than the nominal 2%. In your case, it seems that there's more than 14 ml left in your cartridges when the chip thinks that the cartridge is empty.
Assuming that this is true, I would be inclined consider using a chip resetter, and carefully keep using the cartridge until it gets close to being really empty. Having an accurate scale, and knowing the weight of an empty cartridge would seem to be a necessity, as nobody wants their big printer to start aspirating.
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As I understand it, the chips in ink cartridges do not measure the ink level in the cartridge, but nozzle firings.
Now, there are manufacturing tolerances in the print head, so a droplet which is supposed to be, say, 3 picolitres, might actually be a tiny bit more, or a tiny bit less. Epson has to be somewhat conservative, and assume that the droplets are on the large side of the tolerance, or else someone is going to find that the chip reports that there is still ink left, when there really isn't. There are a lot of nozzles, and a lot of firings, but stochastic averaging makes this method of ink calculation surprisingly accurate.
However, your particular printer might on average produce slightly larger, or slightly smaller droplets than the average printer. So you might find that the amount left in your cartridges when the printer says that they are empty, is consistently more than, or less than the nominal 2%. In your case, it seems that there's more than 14 ml left in your cartridges when the chip thinks that the cartridge is empty.
John,
The op is taking the carts out because the printer will not clean with a low level ink warning. Low level ink warning (2%) is not an empty warning, it just will not let you clean when the warning is triggered. These printers will print until a cart is truly empty and then will stop printing in the middle of a print. Just replace the empty cart and the printer will pick up right where it left off. My green and orange low level warnings have been on for 6 months. If I need a clean I must put fuller carts in to delete those warnings before I can proceed with a cleaning. Then back in with the low carts to print.
I cut one of my 700ml carts apart after it would print no longer. Just to see if empty was really empty. Their was a tiny bit of ink in the bag but certainly not enouough to quibble about. Yep I'd call it empty.
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As I understand it, the chips in ink cartridges do not measure the ink level in the cartridge, but nozzle firings.
Next to droplet counting there is an ink conduction sensor or something like that near the outlet of the cartridge. A bypass in the main channel to the cartridge valve. It is wired to the chip. I have a suspicion that it actually gives the last, empty signal if air gets there or the ink layer/mixture deviates enough from the standard. It is also the most likely cause that new, full cartridges give a wrong signal when inserted. Air or something else trapped in that sensor path. Tapping the carts on a hard surface sometimes helps then, taking out some ink with a syringe too.
In a way the oldest cartridge designs with a mechanical switch (3000-9500 printer period) were quite reliable but left about 20 ML of the 220 ML in the cart when declared empty. The first 9600 carts + firmware were a disaster, sometimes up to 40% left in the cart. That system was totally counting on droplets for the "empty" declaration etc. After user complaints Epson changed the firmware that it would waste less ink but still more than with the old carts. The successive models after that improved the system. My experience has been that Epson never filled the carts with extra ink to compensate the ink loss at the end of their use. It was a nice surprise to see that HP did overfill carts and that very little is left in the carts when declared empty. I suspect there is either a sensor on the cart pump actuators or one in the ink channel just after the pump. No sensor in the cart.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html
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How did you test whether there was extra ink provided, Ernst? Did you take a brand new cartridge and empty it manually to test?
I often wonder when people make claims about how much ink was in there just how they tested it.
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How did you test whether there was extra ink provided, Ernst? Did you take a brand new cartridge and empty it manually to test?
I often wonder when people make claims about how much ink was in there just how they tested it.
It must have been 10 years ago that I started measuring the weight of cartridges, their volume and measured with a syringe, the left over ink. For a reason. The Epson 3000 and 9000 had dye inks that didn't have any fade resistance on the available matte art papers of that day. German Etching for example and the rebranded version of it offered by Lyson. So we had to refill cartridges with Lyson, Van Son, Staedtler inks etc and eventually we found the right ink in Mediastreet's Generations. Which had a better gamut, better Dmax and better color constancy in changing light than the Epson Archival pigment that appeared right after that. Generations was also tested by Wilhelm and had way better test results than the other third party inks available then but less than Epson's Archival pigment. In a later stage I designed a CIS system for 9000´s that I also sold to other print shops and artists in The Netherlands. I continued to use third party inks in an Epson 10000. The 9600 empty cart problem was a well know issue discussed on for example the Leben list still active at that time.
See also Alan Briot´s logbook of the 9600, bottom page and then upwards.
http://www.outbackphoto.com/printinginsights/pi013/Epson9600_03.html
You learn a lot when you measure cartridge volumes, weight of full and empty carts. Refill them with water, check the weight of inkper ML, disassemble carts etc. I never had a 9600, 9800 118800, Canon iPF9000 but collected empty carts to see how they were made. I did so with the HP carts of the Z3100 that I got 4 years ago. Still measure weight of empty carts BTW.
If I write observations like in the message above I base that on good knowledge.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
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Next to droplet counting there is an ink conduction sensor or something like that near the outlet of the cartridge. A bypass in the main channel to the cartridge valve. It is wired to the chip. I have a suspicion that it actually gives the last, empty signal if air gets there or the ink layer/mixture deviates enough from the standard.
Thanks for the info Ernst - that is very interesting.
I had wondered how accurate droplet counting was in actual practice.
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With all due respect, Ernst, that's many generations of cartridges and printers old and hardly relates to the current environment.
Unless you purchase and measure precisely a large number of brand new and unused cartridges, you really can't comment on the average fill rates of a given line of cartridges.
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With all due respect, Ernst, that's many generations of cartridges and printers old and hardly relates to the current environment.
Unless you purchase and measure precisely a large number of brand new and unused cartridges, you really can't comment on the average fill rates of a given line of cartridges.
Up to the 9800 carts we had enough evidence. About 4 generations of Epson models. The waste of ink with carts that were declared empty wasn't compensated with a cart overfill. Epson reduced that cart ink waste in time like it did reduce ink waste on more apects but it still can not be called a champion of ink economy. I have no evidence that its cart filling policy has changed since the 9800 models, or the opposite. Let us approach it in a different way, have you evidence that Epson overfills today's carts to compensate the (small) loss of ink when the cart is declared empty?
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
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Up to the 9800 carts we had enough evidence. About 4 generations of Epson models. The waste of ink with carts that were declared empty wasn't compensated with a cart overfill. Epson reduced that cart ink waste in time like it did reduce ink waste on more apects but it still can not be called a champion of ink economy. I have no evidence that its cart filling policy has changed since the 9800 models, or the opposite. Let us approach it in a different way, have you evidence that Epson overfills today's carts to compensate the (small) loss of ink when the cart is declared empty?
I appreciate your choice of how to move forward on this question. The issue, for me, is that as you say there is no evidence either way with regard to the current and most common cartridges available/being used and therefore whilst discussion of the old cartridges is interesting and can and should promote discussion, it can be misleading without being suitably qualified.
I have no evidence one way or the other at the moment. As you also have no evidence one way or the other, it is important to declare this so that people are not unintentionally mislead.
If I am able to obtain useful results, I will share them.
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I appreciate your choice of how to move forward on this question. The issue, for me, is that as you say there is no evidence either way with regard to the current and most common cartridges available/being used and therefore whilst discussion of the old cartridges is interesting and can and should promote discussion, it can be misleading without being suitably qualified.
I have no evidence one way or the other at the moment. As you also have no evidence one way or the other, it is important to declare this so that people are not unintentionally mislead.
If I am able to obtain useful results, I will share them.
If you carefully read my first message on this subject you will see "My experience" etc. I described two older printers in that message. I think that message wasn't misleading anyone. If you provide evidence to the contrary you could make that accusation. Right now there remains a question whether recent cart models are overfilled or not. Kind of academic question as the ink waste is meanwhile minimised, something I referred to in my first and last message. It would surprise me if the recent carts are overfilled given my experience with older cart systems that wasted more and didn't have an overfill. That is my gut feeling though, not measured, but almost an educated guess.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/
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If you carefully read my first message on this subject you will see "My experience" etc. I described two older printers in that message. I think that message wasn't misleading anyone. If you provide evidence to the contrary you could make that accusation. Right now there remains a question whether recent cart models are overfilled or not. Kind of academic question as the ink waste is meanwhile minimised, something I referred to in my first and last message. It would surprise me if the recent carts are overfilled given my experience with older cart systems that wasted more and didn't have an overfill. That is my gut feeling though, not measured, but almost an educated guess.
In a discussion about 11880 (newer) cartridges, you raised the issue of older ones. If you didn't mean to imply that the current ones suffered in the same way, then why raise the issue at all? If you're suggesting that you mentioned it just as a piece of interesting history, then I'll accept you at your word. Of course, you now go on to say quite clearly that your "educated guess" is that the newer carts are not over filled, so again I am left wondering as to the original intent.
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Farmer,
On message content I have a gut feeling that I contributed something on topic and added to that some history on empty cart declaration methods. That would have been the sole message from my side to this discussion. What's your contribution to this thread?
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
New: Spectral plots of +180 inkjet papers:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
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Scientific examination includes rigorous assessment and a requirement to prove claims and to clarify any ambiguity. Your statement was ambiguous in my opinion and I have explained why.
I offered to accept you at your word, Ernst. If you want to devolve this into a pissing contest, then you can do so on your own.
Gut feelings are good and well, but they have no place when making absolute claims.
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Ernst,
Thanks you for your insightful information. Valuable, as usual.
Farmer,
Use Ernst's info as you wish and move on. Slamming one of the best posters on this forum is useless and counterproductive. I think most of us on this forum can figure out how to interpret Ernst's information and will not find it misleading. ::)
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Scientific examination includes rigorous assessment and a requirement to prove claims and to clarify any ambiguity. Your statement was ambiguous in my opinion and I have explained why.
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Gut feelings are good and well, but they have no place when making absolute claims.
While you are right about scientific method, we have to take the business of selling printers and ink into account here. Mr Dinkla showed that Epson for generations has had ink carts which are not empty although their printers claim so, and doesn't compensate for that "shortage" unlike at least one competitor. Therefore it is prudent to think that behavior has continued with Epson's current line of printers, unless there is opposite proof.
Also, if Epson did change their policy regarding this, I'm positive their marketing department would declare it with bold red letters - 2% or so more ink is big savings for their customers in the long run!
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Randy - that's good advice. It was never my intention to "slam" Ernst and of course we're all aware that he's a very good contributor to this board and elsewhere. I, on the other hand, am essentially unknown and must accept a commensurate level of acceptance (or lack therefore). That said, I feel that there have been numerous times when claims about "old" technology have been made without clarification that there is no evidence that they do or do not apply to current matters. I'll leave it at that as you suggest.
Fippe - there are many reasons why a company might not make much of it. As Ernst said, even with the older carts the problems were substantially addressed.
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This isn't actually a direct remedy, but we have been accepting 'empty' 11880 carts from generous folks here at our small artist book printing operation called Location Books in Minneapolis. We're even willing to pay for them and/or pay shipping-- we have some 4880s that we've been refilling using the leftovers from the 11880. If you know of anyone with empty ones, please pass the word on-- thanks, Scott
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Scott I have a whole bunch of 'empty' 11880 carts here. kept them for some reasons unknown. lol
lemme know your address and i'll try to find out how much it costs to ship the lot to you from sunny singapore.
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Great, thanks-- worth a shot. It's 1618 Central Ave NE suite 227, Minneapolis, MN 55413, and [email protected]
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Scott I have a whole bunch of 'empty' 11880 carts here. kept them for some reasons unknown. lol
lemme know your address and i'll try to find out how much it costs to ship the lot to you from sunny singapore.
Don't you have a re-cycling system in US?
Here in Europe, Epson has such a system, called Epson LFP Collection Programme. (http://www.kuehne-nagel.com/partner/epson_lfp/login.do;jsessionid=68A15D7D1B839E336002C273E151B9B5.lexj)
It's only for LFP, and you just put your empty (well) carts i a big box, when it's full, call a given logistic company,
they pick up the box and you get a new, empty one.
I can also let other users put their empty carts in the same box.
And the best thing; it's all for free!
/Sven
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Having just cracked about 10 'empty' (not just at the won't clean point, but registering fully empty) 700 ml cartirdges from an Epson 7900 and 9900, I have measured anywhere from a minimum of about 30 to over 100ml of ink easily extractable from the supposedly near empty sacks.
They are not even close to empty when the say they are, often.
Honestly I don't care in that I have long since costed based on real world ink usage over time, cleans, non-empt carts and all, but I was still a little surprised and miffed when over 100ml came out a cartrdge. That's 1/7th, and a pretty crazy waste/cost. I jsut try not to think about it!
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Having just cracked about 10 'empty' (not just at the won't clean point, but registering fully empty) 700 ml cartirdges from an Epson 7900 and 9900, I have measured anywhere from a minimum of about 30 to over 100ml of ink easily extractable from the supposedly near empty sacks.
They are not even close to empty when the say they are, often.
Honestly I don't care in that I have long since costed based on real world ink usage over time, cleans, non-empt carts and all, but I was still a little surprised and miffed when over 100ml came out a cartrdge. That's 1/7th, and a pretty crazy waste/cost. I jsut try not to think about it!
You say "near empty". Why would you stop using them before they registered as completely empty, as they are designed to do or did you not mean that and they had reported as empty?
I've never seen a *900 series cartridge with 100ml of ink left in it.
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Don't you have a re-cycling system in US?
Here in Europe, Epson has such a system, called Epson LFP Collection Programme. (http://www.kuehne-nagel.com/partner/epson_lfp/login.do;jsessionid=68A15D7D1B839E336002C273E151B9B5.lexj)
It's only for LFP, and you just put your empty (well) carts i a big box, when it's full, call a given logistic company,
they pick up the box and you get a new, empty one.
I can also let other users put their empty carts in the same box.
And the best thing; it's all for free!
/Sven
Sven,
Does it also collect the full maintenance tanks?
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html
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http://cartridges.planetark.org/
There's nothing stopping you from using it for maintenance tanks, too, at least here.
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You say "near empty". Why would you stop using them before they registered as completely empty, as they are designed to do or did you not mean that and they had reported as empty?
I've never seen a *900 series cartridge with 100ml of ink left in it.
Actually I said 'just cracked about 10 'empty' (not just at the won't clean point, but registering fully empty)'
These were identified as completely empty. Most produce 'only' 30 to 50ml, but I had one empty cyan and one yellow that produced 100+ mls.
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Do you mean when saying "registered as fully empty" that the empty cart stopped the printer in mid print?
That's the only empty I know of.
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Actually I said 'just cracked about 10 'empty' (not just at the won't clean point, but registering fully empty)'
These were identified as completely empty. Most produce 'only' 30 to 50ml, but I had one empty cyan and one yellow that produced 100+ mls.
And then you went on to say "near empty sacks" which is why I asked for clarification.
The other issue is that unless you weighed and measured the cartridges to begin with, you don't know how much they started with.
Of course it's possible you had a problem cartridge, but it's also possible that it was overfilled more than normal. If you only measure one side of the equation, you can't get a useful result :(
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Sven,
Does it also collect the full maintenance tanks?
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html
Is that an ironic question?
They only recycle the carts. But it would be nice to recycle all the inks in the maintenace tanks!
How about dark brown ink for sale? ;D
/Sven
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And then you went on to say "near empty sacks" which is why I asked for clarification.
The other issue is that unless you weighed and measured the cartridges to begin with, you don't know how much they started with.
Of course it's possible you had a problem cartridge, but it's also possible that it was overfilled more than normal. If you only measure one side of the equation, you can't get a useful result :(
Agreed. As I said, I don't actually mind a great deal, I've done a lot of calculation over the years and am confortable with the cost of the inks in terms of what they produce. But I was still surprised at the volume. But most are more like 30 to 50 mls. I assume these were glitches but will be keeping my eye on it a bit.
(I meant the 'near empty sacks' that Epson claim they are...are not really 'near empty'.)
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Is that an ironic question?
They only recycle the carts. But it would be nice to recycle all the inks in the maintenace tanks!
How about dark brown ink for sale? ;D
/Sven
No, not ironic. I actually didn't expect that Epson recycled the inks of "empty" declared cartridges either. I doubt that happens but you made me wonder about that too. Sheds yet another light on what is ink economy in Epson's eyes :-)
No, when Epson started to chip the maintenance carts of the 9600 and asked a price for a new one I asked then whether that included a green disposal system by Epson for the old maintenance tank. There wasn't a system like that, the user had to dispose the maintenance tank himself in a proper way. That many decided to reset the chip and fill the tank themselves with pads was actually greener than the Epson system and they paid less. But with a recycling system for carts active one would think that Epson could take the maintenance tank in as well. As I understand it the maintenance tank chips on the recent models can not be reset anymore. I don't think that the man in charge of EU cartridge rules in Bruxelles has ever heard of LF printer maintenance tanks.
met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla
Dinkla Gallery Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html
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I don't think that the man in charge of EU cartridge rules in Bruxelles has ever heard of LF printer maintenance tanks.
LOL
/Sven