Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: nicksouth on December 14, 2010, 06:14:53 pm
-
Hello all,
I shoot 100% landscapes and am trying to decide between the H4D-40 with 28mm lens or the Cambo wrs1000 with 40mm digaron and Phase 45+ back. Will keep my 21mp Canon for a back up. Any advice or experience with these different setups would be much appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
Nick.
-
I have had Cambo RS for a few months and it is fantastic. I have a P40+ that I still use with a Mamiya 645II, but the wide angle performance wasn't there. On the Cambo RS I Use a 25mm and 35mm Schneider XL and 45mm Rodenstock.
A mini-view camera... direct and easy to use. No menus, settings, etc.... I like the direct capture it affords. I can't speak to the quality of the Hasselblad 28mm, but the lens choices are really really good for the Cambo. The 24mm does not have an image circle to give any useful rise/fall, but the 35mm and 45mm do. Without the limitations of a retro focus design these lenses are sharp all the way to the corners...
I have attached a file from the 35mm just for grins.
-
Thanks for that. Was going to look at the tilt and shift lens board which limits lens selection on that front. How does the ultra wide perform?
Cheers
Nick.
-
That should be 24mm not 25mm.
-
I shoot 100% landscapes and am trying to decide between the H4D-40 with 28mm lens or the Cambo wrs1000 with 40mm digaron and Phase 45+ back. Will keep my 21mp Canon for a back up. Any advice or experience with these different setups would be much appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
Nick.
Schneider and Rodenstock large format lenses are a different league of optics compared to any wide-angle retrofocus SLR lens. It's part Schneider/Rodenstock's magic with lens design, part making the design entirely focused on resolution, contrast, and draw rather than making "fast" lenses intended to be shot hand-held, and part the inherent physics of making a wide angle lens which does not have to project it's image from in front of a large mirror box. I love the Phase One 45mm D and the Schneider 55mm LS, but neither of them can compare to a Schneider/Rodenstock large format lens.
By the way you may not need to go as wide as you think: a Schneider 47mm XL on a P45+ with two shots left/right (10mm of overlap) would be the equivalent field of view as a 32mm lens on a H4D-40 and would give you a 68 megapixel file. If needed you could add a Schneider 24mm XL down the road which with a P45+ would give you the same angle of view as a (non existent) 21mm lens with an H4D40. That lens is so wide that it rarely calls for a tilt for DOF reasons.*
Alternatively the Schneider 43mm lens with two shots overlapping 6mm would be the same field of view as a 28mm on an H4D-40 (in practice 10mm of overlap would be better which would be the same as a 29mm lens on an H4D-40).
The reason I mention it is because the 47mm and 43mm have very generously sized image circles which opens up a lot of possibilities. Not only can you shoot two (or three, or four) frames to increase file size, but you can also do it to switch to a native panoramic format while gaining rather than losing resolution (two side by side horizontal frames rather than cropping a single frame down) or use it for perspective control.
(http://www.captureintegration.com/wp-content/uploads/CF000650_09_10-copy.jpg)
Shot by me with a Phase One P45+ on a CWRS with a Schneider 47mm using a left-right stitch.
The 45+ can also handle any long exposure you throw at it (up to an hour at 63F (http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/phase-one-tech-specs/)). If you want to use a graduated ND filter or polarizer and are shooting at f/16 at ISO50 then pre-dawn or dusk exposures can run quite long. How many frames are actually captured at 6 min? 10 min? 30 min? It depends on the photographer, but usually not many. But I can tell you it's very freeing to stand in the pre-dawn fog with the light just starting to come up and knowing that the camera/back won't limit you regardless of what shutter speed is needed to get the image you want.
Finally even if you go with an SLR today like the H4 or the Phase One DF - if you think you might conceivably in the future use a technical camera the Phase One P45+ has a battery slot in the digital back itself which can provide power to the back while shooting on a tech camera, meaning you do not need to carry any other power source. If you are positive you would pick and stick with an SLR then this will have no relevance to you.
Since you're new (15 posts?) to the forum I'll make my standard disclosure that the company I work for sells Phase (and many other things) but not Hassy so my opinion is biased. That said, I stand very firmly behind everything above.
Finally the software (that you'll be spending a lot of time with) for Phase One and Hasselblad are both available for free* at their respective websites. Make sure to spend a several hours in each program going through the entire workflow available in each program. I think it says something that many/most Capture One Pro users are using the program only with dSLR files and often either in lieu of LightRoom, Aperture, and Adobe Camera Raw. But software is very personal, so you should get your hands on both programs and run through the entire process with a meaningful number of images (e.g. two or three full CF cards if that's what you bring back from a trip/shoot).
*note that if you want to use Phase One's Capture One with dSLR files you'll need to opt to "try Capture One Pro". To use it with digital back files requires no license or registration.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) ([email protected])
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/") | RSS Feed (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
-
(http://www.doug-peterson.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/CF003171-stitch-341x420.jpg)
P40+ on a CWRS with a two shot vertical stitch (15mm rise, 25mm fall) for 70 megapixels. By me.
If you've not read about it, stitching with a tech camera is very different than stitching with a dSLR. The lens stays static and projects one large continuous image circle, within which you move the digital back to capture different sections of the frame. There is no fancy math to distort the images together, no pixels are stretched, and no part of the image needs to be cropped along the way.
(http://www.doug-peterson.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/dep_moab_getdpi_24.jpg)
Two frame stitch (left/right vertical frames) with a P21 (infrared version). By me.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) ([email protected])
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/") | RSS Feed (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
-
By the way you may not need to go as wide as you think: a Schneider 47mm XL on a P45+ with two shots left/right (10mm of overlap) would be the equivalent field of view as a 32mm lens on a H4D-40 and would give you a 68 megapixel file.
Yes, Doug...
I have an Apo-Digitar 47XL, and it should be useful on my P2/3, with 8cm movement each axis each end, when I get it mounted.
-
Nice work Doug! Love the infrared back!
-
Schneider and Rodenstock large format lenses are a different league of optics compared to any wide-angle retrofocus SLR lens. It's part Schneider/Rodenstock's magic with lens design, part making the design entirely focused on resolution, contrast, and draw rather than making "fast" lenses intended to be shot hand-held, and part the inherent physics of making a wide angle lens which does not have to project it's image from in front of a large mirror box. I love the Phase One 45mm D and the Schneider 55mm LS, but neither of them can compare to a Schneider/Rodenstock large format lens.
By the way you may not need to go as wide as you think: a Schneider 47mm XL on a P45+ with two shots left/right (10mm of overlap) would be the equivalent field of view as a 32mm lens on a H4D-40 and would give you a 68 megapixel file. If needed you could add a Schneider 24mm XL down the road which with a P45+ would give you the same angle of view as a (non existent) 21mm lens with an H4D40. That lens is so wide that it rarely calls for a tilt for DOF reasons.*
Alternatively the Schneider 43mm lens with two shots overlapping 6mm would be the same field of view as a 28mm on an H4D-40 (in practice 10mm of overlap would be better which would be the same as a 29mm lens on an H4D-40).
The reason I mention it is because the 47mm and 43mm have very generously sized image circles which opens up a lot of possibilities. Not only can you shoot two (or three, or four) frames to increase file size, but you can also do it to switch to a native panoramic format while gaining rather than losing resolution (two side by side horizontal frames rather than cropping a single frame down) or use it for perspective control.
(http://www.captureintegration.com/wp-content/uploads/CF000650_09_10-copy.jpg)
Shot by me with a Phase One P45+ on a CWRS with a Schneider 47mm using a left-right stitch.
The 45+ can also handle any long exposure you throw at it (up to an hour at 63F (http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/phase-one-tech-specs/)). If you want to use a graduated ND filter or polarizer and are shooting at f/16 at ISO50 then pre-dawn or dusk exposures can run quite long. How many frames are actually captured at 6 min? 10 min? 30 min? It depends on the photographer, but usually not many. But I can tell you it's very freeing to stand in the pre-dawn fog with the light just starting to come up and knowing that the camera/back won't limit you regardless of what shutter speed is needed to get the image you want.
Finally even if you go with an SLR today like the H4 or the Phase One DF - if you think you might conceivably in the future use a technical camera the Phase One P45+ has a battery slot in the digital back itself which can provide power to the back while shooting on a tech camera, meaning you do not need to carry any other power source. If you are positive you would pick and stick with an SLR then this will have no relevance to you.
Since your new (15 posts?) to the forum I'll make my standard disclosure that the company I work for sells Phase (and many other things) but not Hassy so my opinion is biased. That said, I stand very firmly behind everything above.
Finally the software (that you'll be spending a lot of time with) for Phase One and Hasselblad are both available for free* at their respective websites. Make sure to spend a several hours in each program going through the entire workflow available in each program. I think it says something that many/most Capture One Pro users are using the program only with dSLR files and often either in lieu of LightRoom, Aperture, and Adobe Camera Raw. But software is very personal, so you should get your hands on both programs and run through the entire process with a meaningful number of images (e.g. two or three full CF cards if that's what you bring back from a trip/shoot).
*note that if you want to use Phase One's Capture One with dSLR files you'll need to opt to "try Capture One Pro". To use it with digital back files requires no license or registration.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) ([email protected])
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/") | RSS Feed (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
Thanks Doug for this very helpful information. I have wondered whether stitching with the Schneider 35mm digitar would serve the same purpose in the end as using the 24mm. Given that the 24mm has essentially no room for movements, it would save the expense of another lens. I employ stitching quite a lot with my Canon 5D11 with the 24mm lens, especially interiors.
Attached is an interior where the camera was vertical, lens shifted left, center,and right. I presume using a 35mm digitar on a 36x48mm sensor in the same fashion would achieve the same result.
Harold
-
As it turns out the math works out exactly right for that.
Three frames (-20mm, 0mm, 20mm) from a 35mm XL results in the exact field of view as a 24mm XL single shot.
Three frames from a P45+ and a 35mm XL would be slightly wider than the field of view of a 5D Mark 2 and the 24mm T/S with three shots.
The benefit is higher resolution and only having to buy one lens.
The drawback is that you have to take three shots every time you want to go that wide.
See below:
(http://www.captureintegration.com/download/schneider-35mm-equivalent.jpg)
(http://www.captureintegration.com/download/schneider-35mm-graph.jpg)
In the above chart of the lens circle of the 35mm XL with three frames from a 45+ the lens circle shown is the extreme outer edge. The final shot implied by that graph would likely need to be cropped down (either dimension) to remove the extreme corners as the detail at the extreme edge of the image circle is smeered.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) ([email protected])
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/") | RSS Feed (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
-
As it turns out the math works out exactly right for that.
Three frames (-20mm, 0mm, 20mm) from a 35mm XL results in the exact field of view as a 24mm XL single shot.
the drawback here with the 35XL is the somewaht strange image format.
If you use the 47XL or 43XL (larger image circles) you can keep a 4:3 format (if desired) and still go as wide as the 24XL.
P45 sensor plane = 49.1x36.8mm. diagonal = 61.36mm
with +/-20mm shift lateral and +/-15mm shift vertical you end up with a sensor plane of 89.1x66.8mm. diagonal = 111.36mm.
So at this amount of shift the 47XL covers the field of view of a 26mm lens and the 43XL the field of view of a 24mm lens.
Of course there is a significant sharpness falloff with such large movements in the corners... but the increased resolution easily compensates the falloff (in comparision to a single image of the 24XL).
-
the drawback here with the 35XL is the somewaht strange image format.
If you use the 47XL or 43XL (larger image circles) you can keep a 4:3 format (if desired) and still go as wide as the 24XL.
P45 sensor plane = 49.1x36.8mm. diagonal = 61.36mm
with +/-20mm shift lateral and +/-15mm shift vertical you end up with a sensor plane of 89.1x66.8mm. diagonal = 111.36mm.
So at this amount of shift the 47XL covers the field of view of a 26mm lens and the 43XL the field of view of a 24mm lens.
Of course there is a significant sharpness falloff with such large movements in the corners... but the increased resolution easily compensates the falloff (in comparision to a single image of the 24XL).
Yep! All the large image circle lenses offer a lot of flexibility for aspect ratio, wideness of field of view, and perspective correction at the cost of varying numbers of images required for the capture.
My (personal) feeling is that two/three frame stitching is very fast/easy to compose/acquire/stitch for commerce even on relatively fast moving jobs (as a percentage of the time required to scout, set up the camera, dress and light the scene). Whereas 4, 6, and 9 frame stitches start to get pretty tedious outside of personal work / art where time and efficiency is not as much a concern. BUT that's just my opinion and many of our customers do use 4/6/9 frame stitches on commercial jobs.
From that POV I'd rather see the OP with a 35mm (ready to stitch down to a 24mm that matches his current 5DII three-shots-with-a-24mmTS) and a 47mm. That would give him options from ultra-wide to wide - to go a bit longer he can crop in the frame of the 47mm and still have enough pixels for many applications (or of course buy a 72mm or other longer lens). But there are very few bad options, as long as the OP understands the benefits, negatives, and costs.
-
Yep! All the large image circle lenses offer a lot of flexibility for aspect ratio, wideness of field of view, and perspective correction at the cost of varying numbers of images required for the capture.
My (personal) feeling is that two/three frame stitching is very fast/easy to compose/acquire/stitch for commerce even on relatively fast moving jobs (as a percentage of the time required to scout, set up the camera, dress and light the scene). Whereas 4, 6, and 9 frame stitches start to get pretty tedious outside of personal work / art where time and efficiency is not as much a concern. BUT that's just my opinion and many of our customers do use 4/6/9 frame stitches on commercial jobs.
From that POV I'd rather see the OP with a 35mm (ready to stitch down to a 24mm that matches his current 5DII three-shots-with-a-24mmTS) and a 47mm. That would give him options from ultra-wide to wide - to go a bit longer he can crop in the frame of the 47mm and still have enough pixels for many applications (or of course buy a 72mm or other longer lens). But there are very few bad options, as long as the OP understands the benefits, negatives, and costs.
I think a 35-47mm combo would cover the vast majority of situations. With 4x5 the 90mm lens was by far the most used for architecture. I occasionally had to go to 75 or very rarely 58mm, and occasionally 120mm for a longer view. This 35-47mm combo would essentially duplicate those angles of view with stitching employed on the wide end when required. Any longer detail shots could be handled with the Canon or Mamiya.
-
I think a 35-47mm combo would cover the vast majority of situations. With 4x5 the 90mm lens was by far the most used for architecture. I occasionally had to go to 75 or very rarely 58mm, and occasionally 120mm for a longer view. This 35-47mm combo would essentially duplicate those angles of view with stitching employed on the wide end when required. Any longer detail shots could be handled with the Canon or Mamiya.
Agreed, especially since the margin between Schneider/Rodenstock large format lenses and SLR lenses is most prominent for wide-angle focal lengths. By the time you get to 80mm the medium format lenses (at least the good ones) are excellent and the advantage of the large format glass is less important. Also the difficulty of composing and focusing with the Cambo body increases with focal length since it is a rangefinder rather than a TTL system.
Granted having shift/rise available at focal lengths like 72/90/120 is welcome (for architectural shooters) and another lens for a Cambo would be cheaper than for instance the HTS for Hasselblad H Bodies or the Schneider 120mm Tilt-Shift for the Phase One DF, and would not require a separate body/bag/charger/accessories like a Canon would.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) ([email protected])
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/") | RSS Feed (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
-
since it is a rangefinder rather than a TTL system
Cambo also provides a ground glass ;-)
-
Doug,
Where can I download this excellent calculator?
Kumar
-
Where can I download this excellent calculator?
It's internal to our company at the moment. We're looking at making an iPhone/iPad or OSX app in 2011.
-
Well, thanks, but right now can't you just make it an Excel spreadsheet like you did the Focal Length Converter?
Kumar
-
Hi Doug,
Many thanks for your extensive advice. The P45+ requires a darkslide equivelent to the exposure length according to some other users..is this correct? What is your opinion on the 40mm Digaron? Is it true it has some moustache distortion? Shoot a lot of lake scenery and a distortion free horizon is important. Thanks again for your help and time.
Cheers
Nick.
-
Many thanks for your extensive advice. The P45+ requires a darkslide equivelent to the exposure length according to some other users..is this correct? What is your opinion on the 40mm Digaron? Is it true it has some moustache distortion? Shoot a lot of lake scenery and a distortion free horizon is important. Thanks again for your help and time.
All Phase One backs require a darkslide exposure equal in length to the original exposure. It is not optional and cannot be disabled or skipped. It is one of the technologies by which Phase One is able to produce clean hour long exposures using the same sensors from which other manufacture's can only manage one minute or 30 seconds such as the KAF-3900.
As a side note - all digital back's max exposure time is relevant to single captures taken with sufficient time for the sensor to cool back down and is usually spec'd at around 65 degrees F (18F). So on hotter nights or in the case that you are exposing several shots in a row the back will not perform as well as a single exposure taken while the sensor starts at ambient temperature.
Someone else here will be more expert regarding the extent and characteristic of distortion of the 40mm. I know Schneider's line much better than Rodenstock's.
-
Thanks again Doug, look forward to any comarisons between the Scheinder and Rodenstock lenses. Particularily the 24mm Scheinder, 40mm Rodenstock and 47mmXL Scheinder. Anyone got some optimum near focus to sharp infinity focus numbers for the 24mm?
Cheers
Nick
-
Thanks again Doug, look forward to any comarisons between the Scheinder and Rodenstock lenses. Particularily the 24mm Scheinder, 40mm Rodenstock and 47mmXL Scheinder. Anyone got some optimum near focus to sharp infinity focus numbers for the 24mm?
Cheers
Nick
Are Sinar lenses badge-engineered Rodenstocks?
-
I use the Cambo wide DS with the back of my Hasselblad H3D 39 at least 90% of the time.
I got the new Schneider 28mm lens about a month after Photokina. It's not an off the shelf lens shall we say. There are focus issues with the lens and it won't go into production until they resolve this. I got the lens early cos I pushed Cambo for it. I needed it to shoot the new Dublin Airport terminal.
Once I did my own test shots to determine where I should actually focus so everything would appear sharp the lens was fine as it has such a short focal length. I already have the Schneider 24mm 35mm and 47mm and the 28mm blows them out of the water. I mean the sharpeness of this lens is jaw droopingly sharp. I had the Hasselblad 28mm (until it was bloody stolen) and again there is no comparison.
Another huge advantage over the other lenses is the huge image circle with such a wide angle lens. The 24mm is a beautifully sharp lens but has pretty much 0 movements. The 28mm lens has 20/17mm movements for a lens that's almost as wide. I am an architectural and landscape photographer. This is Nirvana. If you look at my websute I go for quite strong compositions where I really push the limits of the camera movements.(not my older Mamiya 7 images). Only yesterday i was at the airport and this lens just leaves me gobsmacked. Can't wait for Christmas holidays for some landscape shooting.
Before the 28mm lens I'd say I used the 35mm 90% of the time when using the Cambo. It has a nice perspective while still be pretty wide. A stitched image with the 35mm for me works way better than the 24mm where internal architectural spaces can look very distorted (plus you've no movements with the 24mm. This is crucial for an architectural photographer irrespective of how wide your lens is.)
Now that I've got the new Schneider 28mm I probably have the most important addition to my setup since well..ever.
The main drawback for me using a Hasselblad back over say a Phase one is the battery source. I believe with Phase one you use Sony batteries whereas the battery of a Hasselblad it's in the camera grip. You put the back in the view camera and you have no power. You either tether your camera to say a laptop or you use a rechargeable battery source like the one from Big Wave Power. The problem is they run out of juice after any where from 30 to 90 minutes. I believe Hasselblad are going to do something similar to Phase one with their next generation cameras getting rid of this hassle. Parden the pun.
Personally if you shoot landscape or architecture I think the view camera with the back whether it be Phase one or Hasselblad would be my system of choice. I myself would stick with the Hasselblad. It's a great system. It's not perfect and it has an ever improving software in Phocus. Way better than it's crappy predecessor.
Good luck with whatever system you choose
-
I use the Cambo wide DS with the back of my Hasselblad H3D 39 at least 90% of the time.
I got the new Schneider 28mm lens about a month after Photokina. It's not an off the shelf lens shall we say. There are focus issues with the lens and it won't go into production until they resolve this. I got the lens early cos I pushed Cambo for it. I needed it to shoot the new Dublin Airport terminal.
Once I did my own test shots to determine where I should actually focus so everything would appear sharp the lens was fine as it has such a short focal length. I already have the Schneider 24mm 35mm and 47mm and the 28mm blows them out of the water. I mean the sharpeness of this lens is jaw droopingly sharp. I had the Hasselblad 28mm (until it was bloody stolen) and again there is no comparison.
Another huge advantage over the other lenses is the huge image circle with such a wide angle lens. The 24mm is a beautifully sharp lens but has pretty much 0 movements. The 28mm lens has 20/17mm movements for a lens that's almost as wide. I am an architectural and landscape photographer. This is Nirvana. If you look at my websute I go for quite strong compositions where I really push the limits of the camera movements.(not my older Mamiya 7 images). Only yesterday i was at the airport and this lens just leaves me gobsmacked. Can't wait for Christmas holidays for some landscape shooting.
Before the 28mm lens I'd say I used the 35mm 90% of the time when using the Cambo. It has a nice perspective while still be pretty wide. A stitched image with the 35mm for me works way better than the 24mm where internal architectural spaces can look very distorted (plus you've no movements with the 24mm. This is crucial for an architectural photographer irrespective of how wide your lens is.)
Now that I've got the new Schneider 28mm I probably have the most important addition to my setup since well..ever.
The main drawback for me using a Hasselblad back over say a Phase one is the battery source. I believe with Phase one you use Sony batteries whereas the battery of a Hasselblad it's in the camera grip. You put the back in the view camera and you have no power. You either tether your camera to say a laptop or you use a rechargeable battery source like the one from Big Wave Power. The problem is they run out of juice after any where from 30 to 90 minutes. I believe Hasselblad are going to do something similar to Phase one with their next generation cameras getting rid of this hassle. Parden the pun.
Personally if you shoot landscape or architecture I think the view camera with the back whether it be Phase one or Hasselblad would be my system of choice. I myself would stick with the Hasselblad. It's a great system. It's not perfect and it has an ever improving software in Phocus. Way better than it's crappy predecessor.
Good luck with whatever system you choose
Thanks Enda for your informative post, especially interesting to hear of your impressions of the new 28mm. As someone who obviously has a lot of experience with the Cambo, I am curious as to what method you use to frame and focus. Having had long experience with view cameras I can't imagine working without a sliding back, but then again even though I am an old dog perhaps I could learn a new trick.
The Artec, Arca RM3 etc provide this capability, but I am thinking of easing into MF for my architecture clients without blowing the budget, and the availability of used Cambo equipment at reasonable prices makes this more feasible. I am not sure they will notice the difference, or it will earn me any more, but it may be worth a try.
-
Thanks for the information. 28mm would be my focal length of choice, when will the Scheinder come online? I had heard both the Rodenstock and Scheinder lenses at 28mm were not the best of the large format bunch?? Any help much appreciated.
Cheers
Nick.
-
Another huge advantage over the other lenses is the huge image circle with such a wide angle lens. The 24mm is a beautifully sharp lens but has pretty much 0 movements. The 28mm lens has 20/17mm movements for a lens that's almost as wide.
good to hear your positive findings about the 28XL!
I made a test shot end of September and was not exactly impressed by the corner sharpness. But I am not sure whether the shot was focussed correctly. Maybe I just screwed up the shot... (though the image center was very sharp).
May I ask how you handle the heavy light falloff with large movements? It is around 4 stops (maybe even more). Do you just shoot multiple exposures and merge the captures with the LCC files used as masks in Photoshop?
Too... how do you use 20mm shift with the 28XL? I "only" could go up to 15mm (lateral in horizontal composition) as with larger movements the rear lens mount was blocked by the camera interface (as it is so extremely close to the sensor). But that was on a Wide RS and maybe the interface design on the Wide DS is a bit different.
Thanks!
-
Doug,
You always amaze me with the things you develop and hidden away from us! Well done!
Regarding stitching, I wish Cambo would do a Cambo T/S with HR90mm - thus utilising its incredible large IC.
;)
-
Well I have to say the Schneider is a wonderful lens. It is a wee bit soft as you go towards the edge of the image circle but much better than the Schneider 35mm. It's the best lens in my kit I think.
-
Hi Thomas
As I mentioned it's has some softening at the corners when you get towards the edge of the image circle. Other than that it's a very sharp lens. There are issues with the focus on the lens. As I said the lens I have actually has a 24mm focus ring on it because Cambo were not happy with the focus mount Schneider provided. I was really annoyed with this. This is what's causing the delay with the production of the lens. The 28mm lens was supposed to become online back in September.
Ya there is a fair bit of light fall up due to the omission of an analogue centre filter. I use Hasselblad phocus. There are 2 solutions for the vignetting. One is to use the equalise intensity filter in Phocus after setting you white card calibration shot. I believe Capture one has such a tool also. This doesn't work so well with anything other than small camera movements due the amount of color noise you get. The other solution is to use the new digital centre filter supplied with the lens. It works much better. Although it really messes up with your workflow because after first doing all your adjustments in Phocus, getting rid of color cast etc, you than have to go into CS4 (it's only available in 32bit) and use the plugin. You have to make slightly different settings depending on if the image is normal, under or overexposed. So add to that, that most of the time I seem to shoot panoramics, you're not exactly talking about the speediest of workflows. This is one of the main drawbacks with this lens. There is no option to use an analogue centre filter. Have to say that halos and ghosting were not really a problem for me when using this lens. Much better than the 35mm lens which is at times a nightmare for my internal architecture shots when there are multiple spot lights pointing in different directions. Maybe this is down to the omission of a physical analogue centre filter. Pros and cons heh!!
How do you mean how do I use 20mm?? That's about the limit of the image circle...at least officially. I didn't have those issues you had. I have actually done a panoramic where I went up 11 and than left and right 15mm. It is only after this point that you start to get a solid vignetting in the corner of the image. The rest of the vignetting can be sorted out with the digital centre filter. That is incredible for a lens of this focal length. Yes there was a bit of noise which I had to get rid of using dfine and some softening of the corners but those are some pretty impressive movements. After tweaking I had corners with zero noise and no visible difference in sharpness once sharpening was also applied.
Haven't had time to shoot an Landscape images yet. Been a busy bee. One big pain in the behind is I can't get my hands on a neutral density filter for the lens. A 112mm diameter is supplied with the lens. B+W and Rodenstock don't make on in this size contrary to B&H's site. Lee filters have a new 150mm square filter system just out. The only option I can come up with so far is to blu tac the bloody thing thing to the lens. However the earlies I can my hands on one is in 10 weeks!! Very high tech. If anyone can let me know of a better option, I'd be really grateful.
Hope that was of some help
-
Ya there is a fair bit of light fall up due to the omission of an analogue centre filter. I use Hasselblad phocus. There are 2 solutions for the vignetting. One is to use the equalise intensity filter in Phocus after setting you white card calibration shot. I believe Capture one has such a tool also. This doesn't work so well with anything other than small camera movements due the amount of color noise you get. The other solution is to use the new digital centre filter supplied with the lens. It works much better. Although it really messes up with your workflow because after first doing all your adjustments in Phocus, getting rid of color cast etc, you than have to go into CS4 (it's only available in 32bit) and use the plugin.
Capture One (for Phase One backs) does have it's own version of this tool called Lens Cast Calibration. Same tool in C1 also removes dust spots automagically.
If you consider both a Hasselblad and Phase One on such a platform please be sure to use this tools in each software package and decide for yourself which one does a better job of correcting lens falloff regarding shadow detail/color-accuracy and noise.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) ([email protected])
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One Partner of the Year
Leaf, Leica, Cambo, Arca Swiss, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Broncolor, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/") | RSS Feed (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/")
Buy Capture One 6 at 10% off (http://"http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/")
-
Thanks Enda!
So bottom line: you handle the light falloff by software correction.
I think it depends on personal choice and also on the digiback used.
I use a non-plus P45 and software based correction is of course doable but the edges can go quite noisy.
1 or 1.5 stops are good enough, 2 stops are "okay" (depending on the image)… but 4 stops look really noisy.
This is why I prefer the use of a glass centerfilter (with large movements… otherwise not).
As there is no glass centerfilter for the 43XL (at least not by now) I simply do multiple exposures and merge the images in Photoshop.
Which is very well doable but sometimes a bit tricky and cumbersome (boring, too…).
Just thought you might have a different… easier… workflow you could share here.
I'm a bit surprised regarding your findings about Schneider's DCF. I've tried the tool (for my 43XL) and ended up with images that were undercorrected (i.e. too dark at the edges) and the correction also increased contrast at the edges… therefore also an oversaturation of colors. Simply inaccurate.
Finally I found out that the DCF works Gamma depended (so the outcome differs if you correct a TIF in, say, AdobeRBB with Gamma 2.2 or ProPhotoRGB with Gamma 1.8 ). I've just deleted the thing from my computer.
The LCC based correction in C1 is accurate (as it is applied to the linear RAW before the tone curve of the input color space is assigned).
Regarding the 20mm shift with the 28XL I was just asking if you can use it physically on the WDS.
The rear of the 28XL is so extremely close to the sensore that the rear standard of the WRS gets blocked by the rear lens (at 16mm lateral shift or so).
So in conjunction with the slim WRS body you can't use the full ammount of movements … but the WDS design is obviously different.
-
Ya sure I can physically move it to 20mm no problem. It must be due to the construction of the WRS. Not good.
I'm only using the digital recently and am still getting a handle on it. I'm literally going through proof shots from the airport shoot now. I too would much prefer the option of using the physical filter but Schneider don't provide that option unfortunately. On saying that I have used quite large movements with the lens and the digital centre filter seems to be coping pretty well. They are just low res jpgs for now. I haven't done my TIF's yet until I get confirmation from the client. That probably won't be until the new year. The shoot is been seriously hampered with the awful weather we've been having for the last 3 weeks.
You say that your images were under corrected using the digital centre filter but the power slider allows you to adjust the strength of the adjustment. At 100 percent you are actually over corrected.
-
I too would much prefer the option of using the physical filter but Schneider don't provide that option unfortunately.
that's really ridiculous for a lens with such a falloff.* Get in contact with Schneider and ask them to make one!
They assured me that they will make one for the 43XL (not a series but per order) ... after several emails...
You say that your images were under corrected using the digital centre filter but the power slider allows you to adjust the strength of the adjustment. At 100 percent you are actually over corrected.
then maybe the correction profile of the 43XL works differently... at 100% there is an undercorrection (at least in conjunction with Gamma 1.8 ).
edit:
here's a white reference shot of the 28XL at 15mm shift (with the P45).
If you look at the histogram it's pretty obvious that no software can correct this falloff without introducing noise.
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=47215.0;attach=25197;image
-
I know. I wasn't too happy before getting the lens that I would have to use the digital centre filter, purely because of the extra workload. That's interesting to hear about you been promised a centre filter. Think it's time for a bit of email harassing on my part. It's like getting blood out of a stone with Schneider.
-
Think it's time for a bit of email harassing on my part.
try it!
Can't hurt to let them know what you think about the lack of glass centerfilters...
I think they are on the wrong track when they skip to offer these tools but a software solution instead.