Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: Lukas on December 12, 2010, 07:48:55 am
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Hi, Im working with Epson 7900 for 2 years and 7000 pages, and this is all things that I dont like at all (but yes to Epson company):
-Clogging very much (like almost every Epson printer), each 25 or 30 copies (30x40 cm. size), I must do nozzle check and exact like a clock, always need to clean some nozzle (not always the same)
-The machine desn´t detect printing it is not ok and still printing with clog nozzle and waste paper and ink if you are not there for control this. The user can´t leave the printer working alone.
-The setting that Epson 7900 have for this issue is automatic (you can active or not) and cleaning every 2 or 3 copy. This setting is ¡¡¡TERRIBLE!!! for you $ and you time.
-The manual and more "ECONOMICAL" and simple setting cleaning process is (for pairs), but it doesn`t clean by pair. The 7900 take her own decision and clean all the colors in 90% of times. It take about 5-10 minutes. Too much time. And doesn´t continues with cycle if other not clog color is in (warning low level ink)
-The waste ink tank is full at 3 or 4 cleaning cycles, and it have 600 cl. of ink when says full tank. This ink cost is 240 euros (255 dollars aprox) plus 35 dollar if you dont reset the tank and buy one new.
-When the cleaning process finish, it tell us that need cleaning more. You must not ear this and stop the process.
-If you cancel print process without print, always cut about 3 inch of white paper in all modes of settings by rolls when the paper cut is active (you must change active cut and not active and no forget for avoid this, impossible in most of times), not on sheet mode.
-New firmware doesn´t improve this, I think that it get worse.
I need know if some one have HP 3200 or Canon 6200 and what can tell me about this issues (The same or not, please write quantities and numbers of total pages-copies on your machine for make comparation). I will like ear you experience, because I´m thinking about change to other printer brand.
Thanks
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Hello Lukas.
I have 2 of these ink suckers :-\ but still really like them both.
My 7900 has about 620 prints and the 9900 about 400.
I do a nozzel check before every print job and end up doing a pairs clean on about half of these tests with the 9900. On my 7900 I only do a pairs clean on average 25% of the time or less. So yes it is still an issue.
ANC is off on mine if that is what you were refering to. If your waste tank is filling up like that ,time for a checkout if you plan on keeping this unit. I have only done 2 or 3 full blown cleans in the past year.
Sorry I do not have all the other issues you are having. 7000 prints is quite a few prints and really sounds like a service call is in order. Unless you are ready for a new printer. In that case you will find some very good deals in the marketplace.
Will have to let one of the experienced Canon or HP owners chime in with their comments.
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I have a Z3200 44" printer. It has NEVER clogged, even after 3 months of non use and it is extremely economical in terms of ink use. It lives in a very low humidity environment. I have had it for 2+ years and only wish HP made it in a 60" model.
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I have a 64" Epson and a 44" Canon. The Epson was clogged completely in the Magenta nozzle within 48hrs of delivery, and needs constant nozzle checks to keep it clean. every time I print, and every few hours after that. It is only 10 weeks old, and of course has only had Epson ink through it.
The Canon has never clogged. NEVER.
Canon have a great rebate on at the moment, with free inks and cash back.
take a serious look at the maths of that. It might be worth a little temporary pain to swap over.
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This problem seems common to all Epson printers and unknown elsewhere. Why can'' (or won't) Epson solve this?
My 4800 has constant clogging issues if it's not used continuously. Recently, after a perfect nozzle check, the magenta channel failed completely in the middle of a 17X30 inch print. Subsequent "cleanings" resulted in increasingly bad nozzle checks to the point that I gave up and initiated a "Power Cleaning", a procedure that even Epson warns against because of its excess ink usage.
I'm getting really tired of replacing "Maintenance Tanks". >:(
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iPF 5100 user, almost 3 years in use.
Upside:
- no paper/print lost due to machine troubles like clogging
- ink tanks replaced mid print: prints okay, no artifacts
- experienced no issues with install/update of drivers (windows and OSX)
- experienced no issues with firmware updates or firmware crashing the printer
- print all though the photoshop plugin (so simple to use)
- no black ink switching which is a benefit to me as I can be swithing papers for each next print.
- as far as I'm concerned it's frugal with ink.
Downside:
- borderless printing: it enlarges the file a bit and you loose a few mm of image at the 4 borders. But can be taken care of at image preparing.
- no straight through paper path for more rigid material.
- depending on usage, environment, etc sooner or later you might need to buy 2 new printheads that also will purge ink before replacing.
- canon slow in providing a 64b Photoshop plugin for OSX.
- Although I had no issues with the software (myself beeing an IT guy professionally) I see room for improvement here.
I'm a low volume user, i've the printer on standby all the time and it does some cleaning every 24 hrs. If I do not print for 2 or more weeks the printer will run a nozzle check - cleaning cycle taking sometime. Printing every 3 to 5 days and the printer will start printing directly. In standby the printer is dead silent.
Obviously the non clogging, like the HP, comes at the expense of having to buy new printheads some time in the future. But in my case that will still be cheaper then what the Epson was priced at when I bought the Canon and the ink used in cleaning by the epson.....
Hope this didn't sound too much as fan-boy-ism because I'm not. My next printer could well be an Epson or HP, just depends on what they have in the market, what they cost and how they perform.
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I have similar experience. My 7900 is also nearly 2 years old and it is clogging very often. It was serviced many times (6 or 8, stopped counting) and it was getting only worse. In last half year I was getting whole or most of channel drops and it became very unreliable. One has to babysit the printer carefully. The bad thing is that it happens even between following prints, so one sends 12 pages job (24x36" each) and it clogs or drops channel(s) after 8 pages and if you don't notice you loose a lot of material. I found out it usually happens when the printer is doing small cleaning (which cannot be switched off and is done automatically after few pages), and also when cleaning by pairs. I clean one pair and after it finishes one or more other channels clog or drop out. BTW, I stopped using ANC as it was unreliable. In EU the company can avoid replacing the machine by continuously doing repairs :-(
I bought Canon ipf8300 about half year ago, when the problems with Epson got too bad and so far, knock on wood, it works really nice and is very reliable. What a relief when you can just send out the print job and it starts printing in few seconds. Compared to first printing nozzle check on 7900 and then usually spending 10 to 30 minutes cleaning the machine. It happened to me once that the client came to pickup the prints just before the last 2 pages were printed and had to wait another hour because it clogged just at that time. Image quality wise they are quite comparable, each has its stronger and weaker areas. One thing I like on 7900 is roll handling which is very comfortable, but reliability is much more important to me.
Ah, and that black ink switching and frequent cleaning after that, which can use 20 or 30ml (compared to 1.5 or 3.5ml advertised ;-)) I stopped switching the black inks and use ipf8300 for glossy prints.
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There have been claims that Epson's recent models clog less, but if this is "less," no thanks. I've read so many horror stories about Epson printers - not only clogs - that they won't even make the shortlist when it's time to finally buy a wide format printer.
-The waste ink tank is full at 3 or 4 cleaning cycles, and it have 600 cl. of ink when says full tank. This ink cost is 240 euros (255 dollars aprox) plus 35 dollar if you dont reset the tank and buy one new.
Not to add insult to injury, but 240 EUR is 318 USD.
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Funny, I haven't had too many clogging issues with my 9900. I use it at least five days a week. I've gotten into the habbit of doing frequent nozzle checks. I don't know if it's a coincidence or not, but over the past year I've switched over to Epson media almost exlusively, with the exception of Hahn Photo Rag Baryta. Maybe that has something to do with the minimal clogging that I've had. For what it's worth, I live in a humid climate -- Central Florida.
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I haven't had an Epson wide format printer in awhile (other than a 3800 which I still use for small cut sheet), but I have had three Canon units in my studio.. the iPF5000, iPF6100, and since last May, the iPF6300. I'm sold on the Canon models, especially the 6300. Haven't seen any reason to go back to Epson. With Canon, I'm very happy with the print quality, LOVE the Photoshop high-bit plug-in, don't ever worry about matte or photo black ink swapping, and NEVER have a clog. The workflow is generally trouble free. The user interface takes a little getting use to, not as intuitive as Epson or HP, but it is feature rich. The 6300/8300 has a somewhat improved user interface and menu system.
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I've had a 7900 for about 10 months and a Z3200 44" for about two months. They are both wonderful printers but I give an edge to the HP and I've been an Epson printer use for many years.
The HP never clogs, the driver is more sophisticated than Epson's however, the z3200 is MUCH SLOWER in print speed. Paper loading and handling is a bit smoother in the Epson. The built-in spectro on the HP is as close to perfect as I've ever seen. The prints come as close to matching my monitor as I've ever seen and I use a fully calibrated workflow on my Epson.
Subjectively, there's a bit more "depth" to the HP prints. I don't know how to objectively quantify that remark.
I don't know if HP still has the rebate deal, but I bought my 44" for $2795 and then got an $800 rebate from HP. Not only did I get the rebate but HP sent me the check in a very short time. :)
Jim
www.photographybysteele.com
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I don't know if HP still has the rebate deal, but I bought my 44" for $2795 and then got an $800 rebate from HP. Not only did I get the rebate but HP sent me the check in a very short time. :)
Jim
www.photographybysteele.com
Jim, the HP Z3200 lists at $6155 according to
http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/WF05a/18972-18972-3328061-12600-3328079-3737540.html
Or am I confused about models?
Can you share the name of the vendor who sold you one for $2795?
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Ok, I have an iPF8300, an HP Z3200 44" and until a few weeks ago an Epson 9900. I sold the Epson because of a few reasons: 1) clogged nozzles and 2) long boot up or wakeup time. I love my Canon the most, and still want to love the Z3200 but for some reason it doesn't get there for me. The Z3200 prints do look extremely nice, but the printer is slow and I don't care for the rear-loading for the roll paper. I do find the quality of the Z3200 prints to be a little sharper than the 8300, but overall I find the 8300 easier to use.
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There are two models of Z3200 printers. Those that don't have Postscript and those that do. There is a significant difference in price. Mine does not have the Postscript option. Atlex had them but I don't know if the offer has been extended from HP. I think the list on mine was about $4700.
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I have tons of clogging as well. I print on this thing about 5 days a week now.
What kills me about the Epson 9900 is that you have to babysit it.
The wasted material always irks me.
And what I absolutely can't stand is the disruption to my workflow once a clog appears. It can be a real headache and time waster to get going again. As Mulis mentioned, you do a clean and all of a sudden you have a new channel dropout.
I've found Epson support to be terrible. The last two times I called I was promissed someone would call me back... never happened.
I'm seriously looking at the Canon right now.
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My 7900, 1100 prints printed, haven't had a clog or seen a cleaning cycle triggered in at least 3 months. have full auto cleaning enabled.
Canon's are great printers, but Canon dealer support is pathetic for these, so I won't stock them in my store. And for those that say they haven't had a clog in their Canon printer, please study up on the technology. You have had clogs, but you just aren't aware. Canon printers will waste ink on keeping nozzles clear (not neary as much as Epson), but has thousands of spare nozzles to use when others clog.
You won't be aware until the head runs out of spare nozzles for one of the colors, and you have to replace the head(s). As with Epson printers, some are lucky and go a long time, others not so much. I'm not saying this is good or bad, it's just a different head technology, but with current inks all brands of printers have to have some method of dealing with clogged nozzles, because they are frequent and unavoidable - Canon, Epson or HP.
I believe both technologies are viable and TCO on either is probably more similar than most think. However, you don't buy these printers to save money but to control quality, and in skilled hands both will produce outstanding prints - probably indistinguishable from each other except an expert with a loupe.
For those that use their printers sporadically or switch between MK and PK frequently, the convenience of Canon's technology is a major factor to consider. Personally I prefer the perfectly straight paper path of the Epson printers for all media, and I also really like the roll feed mechanism of the Epson.
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No doubt the Epson has some advantages Wayne. I think I'm at the point that I'll gladly pay for the new Canon print head when that time comes. The downtime probably won't be anywhere near the cumulative down time I face with the Epson 9900. The orders pile up pretty quickly when you are constantly cleaning the Epson.
I do a lot of switching between PK and MK which probably doesn't help matters. I've been at the point for several months now where it probably makes sense to run two printers however I haven't pulled the trigger just yet as I've been weighing my options.
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Mike, that's actually a good observation. You could keep the 9900 and use it for medium and large sized cut sheets, or perhaps for a roll of paper that you always need ready to go. And a Canon 8300 for everything else.
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One nice thing about the z3200 is separate plumbing for the two blacks. There is NO waste when switching between matt and glossy papers. OTOH, you do have a gloss enhancer on the HP that isn't on the Epson. Doesn't appear to be necessary on the Epson.
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And for those that say they haven't had a clog in their Canon printer, please study up on the technology. You have had clogs, but you just aren't aware. Canon printers will waste ink on keeping nozzles clear (not neary as much as Epson), but has thousands of spare nozzles to use when others clog.
While that's true, the fact is with the Canon approach you don't have to worry about kicking off a 30x20 print only to have it ruined by a clog, thus wasting time, ink, and paper. This seems far preferable to me than having to print a nozzle check before every print job, like so many Epson users find they have to do.
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I've had a 7900 since they came out and I don't regret it. I have occasional clogs, but one had never occurred while printing. But HP seems to be the only manufacturer who really has this all figured out. Their nozzles virtually never clog, and they are also very cheap and very easy to replace. Of course *every* printer has its own quirks - really. When buying you have to figure out which one best suits your own particular requirements.
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Canon's are great printers, but Canon dealer support is pathetic for these, so I won't stock them in my store. And for those that say they haven't had a clog in their Canon printer, please study up on the technology. You have had clogs, but you just aren't aware. Canon printers will waste ink on keeping nozzles clear (not neary as much as Epson), but has thousands of spare nozzles to use when others clog.
You won't be aware until the head runs out of spare nozzles for one of the colors, and you have to replace the head(s). As with Epson printers, some are lucky and go a long time, others not so much. I'm not saying this is good or bad, it's just a different head technology, but with current inks all brands of printers have to have some method of dealing with clogged nozzles, because they are frequent and unavoidable - Canon, Epson or HP.
good points Wayne, but yes I was aware of the technical distinction - the end result is the same: no clogs from user viewpoint.
conversely, I found Canons support to be equal or better than Epson. and more willing to go the extra mile. A recently faulty 700ml Epson ink cart (chip refused to register) was eventually replaced by a grumpy individual that took 3 days to arrive. He seemed to think it my fault I didn't have spare 700ml carts laying about! Nothing extra for my frustration or 3 days downtime. Poor service. and they want me to send back the faulty cart...
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Ok now, What I really would like to know in what conditions you all are printing. I mean I don't want to defend Epson, but my 7880 nearly never clogged. I could leave it off for 2-3 months and it still was fine. Now with my 9900 I haven't printed enough to say something for sure, but I turned it back on today after around 2 weeks and it was fine. NO cloggs at all.
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Ok now, What I really would like to know in what conditions you all are printing. I mean I don't want to defend Epson, but my 7880 nearly never clogged. I could leave it off for 2-3 months and it still was fine. Now with my 9900 I haven't printed enough to say something for sure, but I turned it back on today after around 2 weeks and it was fine. NO cloggs at all.
And there are others that have probably not had any clogging problems with their Epsons either. But it does not take a Reading Comprehension Wizard to figure out that Epsons have WAY, WAAAY , WAAAAY more reports on these (and other) forums of clogging problems than any other brand.
So enjoy your good luck. Because that is what it appears to be... just luck. Other owners here will tell you that you won the Epson Lotto by having one the few that never clog.
So, anyone wanting to buy a new large format printer want to play the lotto? How lucky do you feel?
I'll just stick with Canon (my third now with ZERO problems) and let you Epson guys roll the 'will it, or will it not' clog dice.
And the black ink switch still plaguing Epson is ridiculous... why on earth have you Epson fans put with that crap for so long? And it is a whole 'nother reason to stay away from them.
Tom
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While that's true, the fact is with the Canon approach you don't have to worry about kicking off a 30x20 print only to have it ruined by a clog, thus wasting time, ink, and paper. This seems far preferable to me than having to print a nozzle check before every print job, like so many Epson users find they have to do.
I find it very rare to have a print ruined by an Epson because of a clog mid job. On my 11880's I only run a nozzle check every few days. On the 7900 every couple of days. I think the first print with a problem in months was yesterday.
And on at least a couple of occasions I remember my Canon ipf6100 clogged up enough to ruin some large pano's when using it a few years ago. I don't think Canon is immune to the problem. If I left the 6100 off for a few weeks, it almost always spent time cleaning after starting it back up, forcing me to wait to print a print.
Not really knocking either one, I think they are both great, and as I mentioned for occasional users the way the Canon hides the clogging can be a nice thing for the workflow, even though in the long run it might not be saving as much money as everyone thinks.
I personally believe the technology of the piezo heads is superior for controlling dot placement and size, but will admit it really doesn't translate to a visible difference on the print most of the time.
conversely, I found Canons support to be equal or better than Epson. and more willing to go the extra mile. A recently faulty 700ml Epson ink cart (chip refused to register) was eventually replaced by a grumpy individual that took 3 days to arrive. He seemed to think it my fault I didn't have spare 700ml carts laying about! Nothing extra for my frustration or 3 days downtime. Poor service. and they want me to send back the faulty cart...
I'm not talking about end user support. I'm a Canon dealer, sell quite a few Epson printers and after seeing the new 8300 last year was very interested in perhaps putting one on the floor, producing work with it, and seeing if I could sell a few.
Mentioned it to our rep, but the printers are a different department. On more than one occasion he has put a request through to get us info ... I've given up at this point. I know the other dealer in town who is much larger than me doesn't stock Canon printers either.
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I think Epson has a much better sales channel, for sure, especially over HP. Canon is really trying to buy up business these days, and I have to say that after owning 2 large format Canons I think they have a good case to be in the fine art printing world. They are built like tanks, no black ink switching, I have had great experiences with their support, they are trouble-free to operate, fast as hell, and with the latest x300 generation are really really capable printers. Many of the kinks have been ironed out on the product and service side, but I do think the sales channel side needs to be worked on some. It's really nice to see people buying up the 8300 for way under the $3k mark. That's awesome.
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I'd gladly pay to replace the Canon print heads when needed compared to the time (time is money) spent cleaning nozzles on an Epson.
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I just got tired of having to proactively clean the 9900, or I didn't proactively do it I had to wait and wait for the printer to wakeup and do a self-cleaning. Just got tired of the b.s.
And why, after many years bitching, did Epson *still* require a black ink switch?? I know that we don't have to swap out ink carts, but even the purging of ink in the printhead is a massive pain in the ass. I mean, seriously?
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I'd also say that there may be a huge difference in Epson performance if you live in average relative humidity of 50% or more vs 10-40%. The Epson specs make this clear: 50% or more is required. Canon states 10% or more. So if you live in a dryer climate, you should buy Canon or HP or realize that there will be huge issues with clogging. That said, my 3800 is far superior to my 4800 in that it clogs way less. Sounds like Epson hasn't really improved this much in their 7900 and 9900s, though I don't have either to compare.
Again, I'd much rather pay the price of new print heads than have to deal with constant clogging problems.
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Funny that I know two more people here living near by, one with a 7990 the other a 9900, no clogging problems at all. The 7990 is only used once a month. However I can say that both have a room with a humidity at 55%. However you could argue that it works the other way around, a z3100 for example lasted forever with it's orginal heads because it did not clog as well.