Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Digital Image Processing => Topic started by: Justinr on December 05, 2010, 12:04:33 pm
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Anyone else out there not bother with them?
I used to use them a bit but have for a long time just find they get in the way. I'm not in to moving elements, replacing skies, slimming hips or any of that malarky so I never bother. Once familiar with the camera and the lighting conditions an image was created under I find that I can just zip through the adjustments knowing where I am heading for the final result.
Can I really be the only one who does this as every article and book I read on digital photography insists that layers are the one and only truth when it comes to PS. Tosh I say!
Justin.
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Well, it depends on your workflow of course, but without layers you are actively altering the pixels of the image itself. Once you hit 'Save', there's no going back from there. Using layers protects the integrity of the original image. One of the (many) things I like about Lightroom is the non-destructive editing.
YMMV!
Mike.
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I used to think that too. But then I discovered adjustment layers. Gotta love 'em.
With adjustment layers, you can change your mind about an image as many times as you want without any image quality penalty. You can even stack several adjustment layer variations, while enabling only one at a time to quickly toggle through "what-if" variations.
But if you are making direct adjustments on your image, every time you change your mind you are degrading the image A LOT. Two Curves adjustments in a row on the same 8 bit image and it's dog-doody. And it's not much better with a 16 bit image.
Try it! It's so easy! Just put a curves layer over your next image, and you'll never go back to unprotected adjustments again!
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As Mike says, it depends on your workflow.
I save every layer, since I often come back to an image after several years to re-interpret it with fresh ideas and fresh skills. Seeing exactly what I did the first time and in what order helps me learn about myself. It helps me see my photography as a process and not a final result.
YMMV :)
David
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Absolutely, I can see the point in using and retaining layers if you are investing time and effort in a relatively small number of images which is not what I tend to find myself doing. What little work there is at present tends to be at events and for websites where pictures once taken only need to be rendered presentable rather than interpreted so no great necessity I feel.
Bill, you worried me there so I have tried a similar experiment in which I took a small section of an image and made a copy. This copy I then subjected to curves twice, the first time to lighten it and the second to restore it to its original exposure. I closed and saved the file in between ensuring that it was treated twice. I then printed the results and yes there are some very minor and hardly discernible differences, mainly in contrast, between the original picture and the manipulated one but these could be due to not getting levels back to exactly where they started rather than a deterioration in file quality, so with all due respect I'm not entirely convinced.
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Well don't say I didn't try.
In my case at least, in the course of printing the same image a few hundred times over several years I tend to see new aspects of the image I didn't realize were there before.
On certain images I have probably shifted both local and overall contrast, color, etc around a whole bunch of times. More than enough times to degrade the image beyond all recognition without layers. On some images I have separate masked layers containing nearby stuff that needed a bit of extra sharpening, and so on. On a few oft-printed images I even switch different sets of layers on and off to optimize the same image to different sizes and lighting situations for the prints. And at any time I wish I can get back to square one just by turning off the layers. Using layers makes it all so easy. It's easy enough to say "oh I don't need that stuff" but trust me, you will finally get to that point.
If layers were cumbersome, or if I had a 60 megabyte hard drive, or 4 megabytes of RAM, or a 33mHz processor, I might consider side-stepping layers. But honestly, since about 1995 there has been simply NO DOWNSIDE FOR USING LAYERS and every reason for doing so!
But look, speaking as one struggling to understand the maliciously perverse data base paradigm of Lightroom, I can understand the desire to bypass certain things. So if you must, ignore layers. And please convince all my competitors to do the same thing.
But on that dark day when you finally say to yourself, "OMG I should have used layers on this stuff!" remember that I warned you, OK? :)
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Anyone else out there not bother with them?
I use 'em 100% of the time. Layers make it so easy to make changes for clients. Or for that photo I took 10 or 20 years ago and now have a different vision for it. They provide for an incredible level of control. When v3.0 shipped with Layers I thought it was one of the most ingenious features in any software program I'd ever used.
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Justin, for the kind of work you are describing, like events where you plow through a bunch of images to bring them up to par, you might really prefer the workflow offered by Lightroom. Then the whole discussion of layers becomes irrelevant. The ability to sync corrections for a whole set of shots is a real time saver in these situations. And it's still non-destructive, just in case.
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Justin, for the kind of work you are describing, like events where you plow through a bunch of images to bring them up to par, you might really prefer the workflow offered by Lightroom.
Yes, or even Picasa. When I looked at Picasa a few years ago one could plow through a lot of files very fast, and the changes were reversible. Just the thing for high school football games, parties, and other dutiful purposes.
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Yes, or even Picasa.
Or just Bridge + ACR. Or Aperture, or probably many others.
Working in PS and not using layers is kinda like owning a manual transmission car but refusing to use the clutch. Yeah, it can be made to work, but why not just get an automatic?
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One of the best uses I have for layers is in preparing images for the web. After resizing an image for the web I usually do a final sharpening of the image. All too often you end up with an edge with a while line along it. To avoid this I duplicate the layer and then sharpen it. If any evil artifacts occur, I just erase the offending pixels to show the original image.
There also is the use of layers for high pass sharpening shown in the LuLa tutorial here:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/high-pass-sharpening.shtml
Don't forget there are a lot of illustrators out there who just love layers.
Cheers,
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Years ago, I didn't use layers and simply worked directly on the bit data with color correction, burning, dodging, dust, fixes, etc. Whenever I went too far, I'd have to start from scratch. My images were terminal...
Then I learned the wonders of layers and have never looked back. I can take these work-in-progress files years later and if I don't like what I've done to an image, change any aspect. Because I also label my layers, it gives me an audit trail--I can use that info as a road made to precisely create the same corrections or effect months or years later.
It's a lot like shooting raw, it gives you the option to rework you images later as the software improves and the ability to get even more from your files.
In the overall scheme of things, if you can ace it at image capture because you shoot everything perfectly, then crafting your image through ACR, layers, etc. is a moot point, but for the rest of us, this is just another step toward our digital nirvana.
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Can I really be the only one who does this as every article and book I read on digital photography insists that layers are the one and only truth when it comes to PS. Tosh I say!
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I guess that all of these writers must be wrong? Are you planning to write a book on Photoshop about processing images without layers? It could be a best seller. :)
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I believe there is no reason not to use layers, except you are a die-hard purist.
But if you are so you should use film and do wet prints.
Once an image is digitized layers are a natural concequence.
Especially for local adjustments of luminosity, sharpness, blur, contrast, etc, etc, etc ... In the wet darkroom we used dodging and burning as local adjustments, which are a sort of one-time layer. Unsharp masking also is a technique coming from the traditional darkroom ....
Just my 0.02 ...
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"you are so you should use film and do wet prints."
I use to write out my steps allot of times making a print in the darkroom, to either be able to know what I had done before when I came back (hours or days latter) to re-tweak the printing process or be able to duplicate it. i don't see how adjustment layers are any different than taking notes in the darkroom.
I kinda wish the opposite from the sentiment of the OP that some of the simple keyboard short cuts from the past such as command-M shouldn't pull up a curves dialog box I wish it would pull up an adjustment layer(curves dialog box) One person out of hundreds shouldn't dictate the keyboard shortcuts. It would be nice to see Photoshop's keyboard shortcuts (the standard simple ones) move beyond the old ways and keep up with it's advancements.
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If you have PS CS5 you can do all of this. You can change the short cuts to your heart's content. :) ;D In fact I think you can do it with earlier versions? ::)
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The only time I use Photoshop is if I NEED to use layers. If I don't think layers are required I just use ACR, which is non distructive (ACR also works with Jpgs).
Alan
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I came across the following book a couple of years ago and it revolutionized how I use Photoshop: It’s called “Layers: The complete guide to Photoshop’s Most powerful feature”
I can’t recommend it enough, even if one never gets past the first couple of chapters.
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OK Justin. You found him. I'm the other guy. Alan
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Not being familiar with your concept of photography Its hard to discern what your needs for processing might be.
It was once said that the negative was the score of a photograph, and the photographer directed the performance of his images from that score.
That being said I require all the choices of instrumentaton at my disposal. Your mileage may vary.
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Without wishing to sound too evangelical but layers, layer masks made from channel operations (calculations and apply image) and blend modes are the next level of power in Photoshop.
Working on single layers is pointless, you can do most of that with more control in Lightroom. Layers and all the associated techniques that they open up are not for the faint hearted but represent the true power of Photoshop.
That book that was mentioned earlier is a good starting point, but it's only fairly basic. Worth a go if you want to get a taste for what's possible.
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It's not that I haven't tried layers, for some reason I just didn't get it to save so when I reopened I had everything combined and couldn't seee the layers so I gave up. I also tried LR3 and liked it, the flow and control was nice but then I read that its mainly for indexing large picture files, more for professionals, and I don't have that need, so I began using Elements 8 only.
Question though if you're also using LR3. How does layers in PS work for you since your main adjstments are in LR?
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That book that was mentioned earlier is a good starting point, but it's only fairly basic. Worth a go if you want to get a taste for what's possible.
What other books can you recommend??
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I have recently moved over to the layers school. When I save a TIFF file with layers it appears only as an icon in Bridge rather than the thumbnail I have grown used to. Is there anyway to get the much more useful thumbnail to display?
Joe
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What other books can you recommend??
Unfortunately there are almost no books that cover this field in any detail. Lots of books include some stuff on masks and channels but only as a small part of bigger books. If you can track down a secondhand copy of David Beidny's Channel Chops then get that.
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Sometimes I use layer and sometimes not, sometimes I even don't take my photo into the PS, it happens in different conditions.
Thomas McConnell (http://www.mcconnellphoto.net)
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Justin, for the kind of work you are describing, like events where you plow through a bunch of images to bring them up to par, you might really prefer the workflow offered by Lightroom. Then the whole discussion of layers becomes irrelevant. The ability to sync corrections for a whole set of shots is a real time saver in these situations. And it's still non-destructive, just in case.
Or you can do the same thing in Camera Raw, the only advantage with Lightroom being that you can then batch print them, which you can't do in PS. On the other hand, the advantage of batch ACR is that you can open any image in PS if any pixel-level adjustments are needed.
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Or you can do the same thing in Camera Raw, the only advantage with Lightroom being that you can then batch print them, which you can't do in PS.
Actually, the Photoshop CS5 Print command can be recorded as an action and you can print multiple images from Bridge using the Batch command. The only limitation is that you'll need a separate recorded action for horizontal and vertical images since the Print command can't auto-rotate like Lightroom.
BTW, this is just one of the new "tips" that Mike and I have added to the new Camera to Print and Screen video due towards the end of the summer.
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Regarding the recent posts that you mentioned and 'stalking'.... someone is using my name and linking to my website. I have not registered on this forum until now.
If possible, please delete me and the other 'user' that is using my name.
Regards,
Tom
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Well gee, how does this save time and effort or improve the image?
I have tried a similar experiment in which I took a small section of an image and made a copy. This copy I then subjected to curves twice, the first time to lighten it and the second to restore it to its original exposure. I closed and saved the file in between ensuring that it was treated twice.
Several images could be processed, using layers, in the time all those steps were being made!