Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: issa on November 10, 2010, 09:57:38 am
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I am looking into a compelete system also plan to use the digital back on a view camera too. I guess 45/50mb is more than adequate for me. the question is which system is more suited to a view camera, like the idea of live view.
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Quality at the level of these two backs is going to be virtually identical -- and quite excellent -- for most purposes, so it would be tough to make a bad choice. The real differences are going to be found in the respective "packages" they bring --- the rear screens, UI and conversion software. Build differences may also come into play depending on the type of environment you regularly shoot in though, and here the Phase is passively cooled and the back is completely sealed where Leaf is actively cooled and has vents. My recommendation would be to demo both and then choose the one that best suits your shooting style and workflow based on the entire package.
Cheers,
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Thanks Jack
I am in the UK, and our climate is cool and will be using outdoors but not in rainy conditions, will not subject such an expensive item to such conditions.
You mention some good points, from what I have read, the screen on leaf is better and supports live view for composition.
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In a concrete field configuration, what does that really means? That the Phase solution would be better for humid - cold conditions and the Leaf more appropriate for dry - hot conditions?
or, one more aimed to studio/good weather conditions and the Phase more a 4x4 all terrains?
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In a concrete field configuration, what does that really means? << snip >>or, one more aimed to studio/good weather conditions and the Phase more a 4x4 all terrains?
I think it means different things to different people. Bottom line is vents allow air -- and other things -- into the inner workings of the back. I am sure those inner workings are relatively well protected against normal environmental particulates and moisture, but then again, who knows? If the OP for example, were going to be regularly shooting in rainy, or damp, coastal areas where salt-spray is common, then it might be something they'd want to be aware of...
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Thanks Jack, it certainly is a good information to take into account and the one that interest me to know and not all those dxo grphics that have been sprayed recently like confetis in this forum. I wonder if the Phase guys, being a passive cooling, have had issues in hot summer outdoor, like in deserts for example.
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I used a leaf aptus 75 before P45+ and if I was using the back mainly for outdoors, I'd prefer a Phase One back. Leaf has a more 'open' structure- the enclosure of the back is perforated to provide the exit for the air (as Jack pointed out, Leaf backs are ventilated with a fan while Phase One backs are cooled passively). You may not be using the back in the rain but still the humidity and blowing wind expose the back to environmental influence. My impression is that P1 back is a bit more solid. I can't provide any tech proofs for P1 being less prone to environmental influence but logic suggests so (it's a rock vs swiss cheese:) ).
On the second note, if you want to use live view a lot (and probably you'll need it), my p1 back tends to heat up to quite high temperatures.. I contacted p1 tech dept with this issue and I was told that it's to be expected when live view is used for longer periods of time.
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As Jack out;lined, it depends on the workflow.
Live view is useful, but will not use for long period. I guess I have to compare, asses, review and make my mind up. It is alot money, hence asking your opnions, which i will take into consideration in addition to my findings.
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I wonder if the Phase guys, being a passive cooling, have had issues in hot summer outdoor, like in deserts for example.
I have used mine outdoors in over 40 degree C, dusty climates with no issues. I assume long exposure of over 30 seconds would show more noise than if taken in cooler temperatures, but I have not personally tested that. I have also used mine in the rain with no issues. I can state with certainty that having the "enclosed" Phase back made those shooting sessions no-worry events --- not sure I'd have felt the same level of comfort with an "open" back...
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If i have the option i will go with P65+, at least i respect Phase One DBs more and they always improve their products significantly, and i feel they are the top of digital backs in the world, i have only Hasselblad MFD [H3D before and now H4D], i used both of them in my country where the temp is going up to 48-50 C with high humid, no issue at all except my shots look so flat and bad color temp on some of them, great that my Hassy was able to resolve most of my shots, my Canon DSLRs failed on that, so i will not be so worry to use those MFD on extreme conditions, in fact all cameras can't handle very tough too much extreme conditions whatever those manufacturers say, in fact i can't handle to wait and stand in those very bad extreme conditions myself.
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I have just ordered a 12 back for my tech camera and went similar thoughts about the sealing. One thing left out in all of this is the sealing of the sensor. If you are shooting in a dusty,windy or salty environment then the rotating sensor of the Leaf is going to be a winner. It does seem to me that the sensor is much more delicate and vulnerable to damage. I dont fancy the idea of taking the back off to change orientation on a windy beach!
Cheers JOHN
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I can only speak of Phase backs and how rock solid they are in any weather condition I've ever used them in. However, I have also never heard of any complaints from Leaf users about the reliability of their back so I assume they are just as capable.
My take on the two backs your looking at is if the file quality of some shots posted over on the dpi forum is any thing to go by, the new Aptus 12 looks staggering and would sway me over to Leaf. I imagine when Phase puts the same chip their own chassis it will be a lot more expensive so the Leaf does seem a relative bargain.
I can also imagine the Leaf would be a better LF back with its better user interface and larger screen.
Great dilema to be in though. ;)
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Hi,
Well, P1 shows videos of baking their back, freezing it, two ton loading on it, accidental drop from roof of car, drop from balloon, elephant loading...
... making my own risk assessment I do not have any those conditions and wonder if anyone does??? I went for Leaf. :).
Fundamental in my decision for Leaf was following:
+ Leaf screen and user interface, including histogram
+ Image quality from Leaf and Dalsa (nowadays P65+ is also Dalsa)
+ Lower pricing and better support in my region.
Obvious the last was a very deciding factor.
P65+ vs. Aptus-II 12, the Aptus is lower price and sounds a newer technology sensor... :). Both can be used with Capture One which is superb also for Leaf files.
I have heard/read of nobody yet having issue with the vents on Leaf. On contrary when in hot weather the active cooling can be advantage.
My back is the Aptus 65, and another Leaf will be the only logical future upgrade. I am happy with mine :).
It is worthwhile to demo both, choice is a mere personal preference.
Regards
Anders
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I've been using both Phase One and Leaf on an Alpa camera (from Optecs Digital in Seattle) this past couple of months - all outdoor in many types of weather conditions. Wow, what a difference! Whenever I switch back to the Phase back after using the Leaf for a little while I feel like I'm picking up a Canon Rebel - the Phase screens have always been bad, but we just settled. The Leaf screen is so much better - and for me, there is something about the image quality from the Leaf - not exactly sure how to define it, but I like it. There are many other things I much prefer about the Leaf over the Phase One for outdoor/landscape work, and since I've ordered the new 12R I guess I'm putting my money where my mouth is. The only thing I miss about the Phase back is longer exposures - can't do them with a Leaf.
Tim Ernst in Arkansas
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If I were a doctor, I'd go for the Phase. If I were a lawyer, I'd go for the Leaf. If I was a pro, I'd go for whatever offers the greatest potential for generating revenue.
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Actually, I don't think high and low temps are the biggest issue with these backs. High winds in the Desert Southwest or on the beach in Oregon when salt spray is flying. In those conditions, I would want the Phase back. I learned the hard way about fan cooling backs in those conditions.
Btw, the LCD screen on the latest Canon Rebel is way better than the screen on either the Phase or Leaf backs.
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I agree on the LCD, but I was talking about when I look at the Phase screen it feels like a toy screen compared to the Leaf screen. Kind of like shooting all day with a 1Ds3 and then picking up a Rebel - feels like a toy when you look through the viewfinder (I've been up 48 hours straight so my typing is not matching my brainwaves).
What sort of issues did you have with a cooling fan back, and what back was it? That would be some good info to know.
I don't think either back has more or less earning potential, although there is a good bit of difference between 60 and 80mp so this is not really apples to apples anyway.
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and for me, there is something about the image quality from the Leaf - not exactly sure how to define it, but I like it.
SNIP
The only thing I miss about the Phase back is longer exposures - can't do them with a Leaf.
Tim,
Those two comments kind of imply you were shooting with a Kodak sensor'd Phase back (P25/30/45) and not a Dalsa sensor'd Phase (P40/65). I suspect the "difference" in image look you're seeing is the difference between Kodak and Dalsa sensors -- Leaf and Phase P40/65 are Dalsa, FWIW. Can't argue on the LCD though, other than is the new Leaf brighter than it used to be? I know with the Leaf 33 was tough to see in normal outdoor daylight.
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getting back to the OP , for use with a technical camera the rotating sensor is a very significant point of difference between the backs IMHO
Cheers JOHN
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It was the original H3D-39, which had fan cooling. It died on the second day of a 9 day trip in southern Utah in fairly windy conditions. Lots of dust flying around. To be fair, the next generation Hasselblad H3DII and the H4D do not use fan cooling.
I would be very wary of any back with fan cooling in marginal conditions. Seems logical to me that you don't want bad stuff circulating inside your back.
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FWIW after more than 10 years working with Leaf backs all over the world and looking at our service statistics I can say that fan failure rate is virtually zero.
The backs are made in a country where dust, wind, sand and salt are the four basic weather elements...in the summer temps go to 40c easily with >80% humidity near the coast.
In solid, continous rain I would recommend a cover of some sort over your camera, although on this board (and others) I have yet to see a photograph that was taken in the rain...
Yair
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I would have to agree with Yair about the fan issue - from the research I've done talking with Leaf users there seems to be basically zero complaints - it is not blowing dust onto the sensor after all, nor getting inside the memory card, it is merely passing the air through a space for cooling. The only issue with the fan that I see is the fact that you can hear it blowing 100% of the time - contrary to reports on the old Luminous Landscape site and other places. Perhaps I hear better than others, but I do have to wonder what else other sounds folks are missing out in the wilderness if they can't hear that fan, ha!
I agree with John - the rotating sensor is a huge deal and no one has anything like it - seems like a user designed this feature, or perhaps were just looking ahead to the rapidly-expanding use of these on tech/view cameras.
I never used the older Leaf backs but the current model is just SO much easier to see and use than all Phase screens - certainly Phase will finally fix this with their new P-80 back? With the Phase screen always being so bad it really is only good for histo and blinkies, yet with the Leaf screen I actually spend time looking at the image, and setting the gray balance. I do have to cup my hand over the screen in bright daylight to see really well (although I rarely shoot in bright daylight - I much prefer sweet light) - never had to do that much with the Phase screen because there was just nothing worthwhile to look at. I will say that I didn't have too many complaints about the Phase screen - since it could only be used for histo and blinkies - until I used a Leaf. Big difference for me.
As for exposure times, even the two minutes that you can sometimes get with the Phase P-60 would be a lot better than the 30-second limit on Leaf. I have published hour-long images from the original P-45 and P-45+, although they were quite noisy and required a little bit of work. Since I can now do 8-12 clean hours of exposure with a Nikon I don't bother with MFB for those long nighttime shots any more.
I have used the D-60 and still find the look of the Leaf files for my landscape work (which is all that I do) more to my taste - something you can't really put a finger on, but that is certainly good enough for me.
And one other huge plus for Leaf backs for tech and view cameras - you can add the focal length to the metadata while shooting - holy cow, what a difference this makes to my workflow! (obviously not an issue for SLR users) I'm not a note-taker so that route won't work for me.
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Can only compare the P20 and a recent Leaf AFI II 7. Its rather odd to compare earliest generation and later ones, but maybe just focus on ergonomics?
The Phase back is of course a tighter unit, sealed up. That said, the fan of the Leaf is pretty minor. I thought I'd mind it, but its just a reminder the back is on. On paper, I might even choose something else, but in reality, its no biggie. Leaf indicates that for service the back innards with sensor can be removed from the outer casing (by them) and this makes turn around easier as they can service less critical items here in the US. I like that idea.
I never got used to the buttons on the P20 back. While they make sense and should work, I found myself stumbling with them (missing the sequence, forgetting, having to think) and really enjoy the Leaf interface. Yes, I make the same bumbling mistakes, but recovery just seems faster, easier.
Two features of the Leaf that are desirable: the rotating sensor is very good. No problems, and the back never has to come off the camera (less dust issues). The P20 didn't have to come off easier (square sensor, early type) but if it had a rectangular proportion, it would have had to. For those who switch horiz/vert, don't overlook this.
Also, the tilt screen with the Leaf is nice - you don't have to get behind the back or tilt the camera (not so easy on a tripod). Not a feature needed all the time, but when needed, it is quite useful. And the screen is big enough you can really check focus at 1:1.
The interface with the Leaf is more sophisticated. More control, clearly organized. Use your paws, or the stylus. Lots of features, but not overwhelming. In short, its kind of fun to use. The P20 was workable, but seemed a bit more effort to remember which way to go, and when. In theory, the vote goes to the Phase approach, but in using it, I was always pushing one too many buttons.
If they were both available at the same price with the same resolution, the Leaf would get the nod for the rotating sensor and user interface and big screen. If Phase addressed that, then its back to a horserace.
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snip
...In solid, continous rain I would recommend a cover of some sort over your camera, although on this board (and others) I have yet to see a photograph that was taken in the rain...
Yair
Hi Yair, how about this one? http://www.shoots.de/FeelGood.279.0.html
@issa: We have been working with leaf backs for more than 6 years now and we never experienced any problems with the vents. In fact I think it´s the only piece of equipment that never ever gave us any trouble. I prefer the IQ/Color produced by the DALSA/Leaf combination and would always go with the Aptus again. You might also consider the Aptus 10 which might also give the desired resolution.
Cheers, Ulf
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Hi Yair, how about this one? http://www.shoots.de/FeelGood.279.0.html
See? There's always a first:-) Nice!!!
Cheers from Munich
yair
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I don't think the issue is whether the fan itself fails. Does the fan suck in air with with a salt laden moisture content or fine, talcum powder like sand that can work its way into any area of the camera/back where there are electronic or mechanical components?
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I don't think the issue is whether the fan itself fails. Does the fan suck in air with with a salt laden moisture content or fine, talcum powder like sand that can work its way into any area of the camera/back where there are electronic or mechanical components?
I think your reading way too much into this. If the environment was such as above then the simple firing of the shutter activating the internal mirror movement would cause a suction and blowing action bringing this hyperthetical "salt laden moisture content or fine, talcum powder like sand" into the lens/camera workings. In this environment I'd be worrying more about camera failure before the back gave up. :-\