Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: NikolaBorissov on September 22, 2010, 04:44:14 am
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Just got an sms from my friend who is over at Cologne at Hasselblad's press conference. These are the news: updated 50 & 120 mm, H4D-31, no word on the software. I was really hoping for an updated longer tele, but the macro will do :)
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http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/22/hasselblad-h4d-31-cuts-the-entry-price-for-medium-format-excelle/
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http://press.hasselblad.com/media/1946449/2010-09-22_pr_h4d-31_en.pdf
http://press.hasselblad.com/media/1946536/2010-09-22_pr_h4d-firmware-lenses_en.pdf
http://press.hasselblad.com/media/1946464/2010-09-22_pr_phocus_en.pdf
http://press.hasselblad.com/media/1946500/2010-09-22_pr_cfv-50_en.pdf
http://press.hasselblad.com/media/1946521/2010-09-22_pr_200mpix-capture-device_en.pdf
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full list of press releases are up on the http://press.hasselblad.com/press-releases/press-releases-2010.aspx.
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It just me or the new exiting products are:
1. A new version of the 50mm with the same aperture as before
2. A new 120mm macro with the same aperture and magnification as before
3. The H4D-50MS is released again, just like before. Only that this time the marketing is 200MP
4. The H4D-31 sigle less expensive than the 40 (13.6% more lineal resolution) that looks more like a 40 cannibalization device that any other thing.
5. Just learned that the 60 don support the GIL!!!
I have never been part of the hate hasselblad set, but frankly I feel disappointed. More than nothing in terms of the lens. I guess they analyzed the impact of the 31 on the sales of the 40. From my limited point of view the H4D-31 is an error.
I would have been better to keep the h3d-31 as it was and get down with the price. Maybe it was more expensive to keep that generation going.
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No black, but red:
http://www.digitalcamerareview.com/default.asp?newsID=4515
http://press.hasselblad.com/media/1946506/2010-09-22_pr_h4d-ferrari_en.pdf
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4. The H4D-31 sigle less expensive than the 40 (13.6% more lineal resolution) that looks more like a 40 cannibalization device that any other thing.
I have never been part of the hate hasselblad set, but frankly I feel disappointed. More than nothing in terms of the lens. I guess they analyzed the impact of the 31 on the sales of the 40. From my limited point of view the H4D-31 is an error.
I would have been better to keep the h3d-31 as it was and get down with the price. Maybe it was more expensive to keep that generation going.
The H4D-31 is an "entry level" medium-format digital aimed at Canon and Nikon (and Leica and Sigma) shooters who might move to medium-format, not at potential H4D-40 purchasers. The margins may be lower on the H4D-31, but their manufacturing costs go down as volume goes up on common elements. DSLR shooters will see this as an attractive entry point. That's my opinion/story and I'm sticking to it.
I wasn't aware there was a "hate hasselblad set". I've got a lot to learn.
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Great news IMO.
Just finished my demo of the H4D-50, then log on and read this news.
Been a Phase one shooter for many years but the H4d is a great camera and the lenes...... Oh the lenses! :-*
Phase One seems to be shouting about their leaf shutter lens range at the moment but the Blads have always had leaf shutters.
Updated optics in older lenses and improvements in software are the things that should matter, not 80MP chips.
I could imagine a H4D-31 will seem very tempting to those Canon and Nikon shoots disappointed by the lack of updates to their big gun 1Ds and D#X cameras.
Good going Hasselblad!
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The H4D-31 is an "entry level" medium-format digital aimed at Canon and Nikon (and Leica and Sigma) shooters who might move to medium-format, not at potential H4D-40 purchasers. The margins may be lower on the H4D-31, but their manufacturing costs go down as volume goes up on common elements. DSLR shooters will see this as an attractive entry point. That's my opinion/story and I'm sticking to it.
I wasn't aware there was a "hate hasselblad set". I've got a lot to learn.
Mayb you will proven right. My concern is that it will hurt the sales of the 40 more than increase overall sales. They are so close. But like in the song, only time will tell :)
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I could imagine a H4D-31 will seem very tempting to those Canon and Nikon shoots disappointed by the lack of updates to their big gun 1Ds and D#X cameras.
Hum... nope.
Why step back in everything but a little detail... and have to pay the price of a small car for that (I could get at best about 4.000 US$ of my D3x second hand)?
Others might differ, but for my needs I wouldn't do it even it the camera were given away for free.
Cheers,
Bernard
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This is really great news.
I think there are a lot of people like me that still rent and don't need a 50-80 MPX back.
I also don't want to buy an old outdated back for the same kind of money.
to have True Focus in a 31 is excellent.
I'm very happy to see them improve the software.
updated lenses are always good.
As for sales effecting the H4D-40, let's not forget that all the $ goes in the same pocket and this back also brings in people who were going to go with a canon or nikon option....
Great move H
am
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.....and this back also brings in people who were going to go with a canon or nikon option....
MF and 35mm have always been different beast, yes it will get people to but MF now, but probably not switch, it will be complementary.
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The added Ipad control/view in Phocus 2.6 is greatly appreciated. Can't wait.
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I didn't know there was anything wrong with the original 120 macro. Can you seriously improve on it?
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The big news for traditionalists & enthusiasts is the new CFV-50 back. I think that will create more of a buzz than most, if not all, of the H-series announcements. The H4D-31 may be priced very well, but what about the rest of the H series lenses? They send the price for a decent "kit" into the stratosphere. Contrast that with the many, many V-system shooters who already have all the affordable V series lenses they need and the bodies they love. Slap on the CFV-50 and they're in hog heaven, with a bigger sensor, for less overall outlay.
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Hum... nope.
Why step back in everything but a little detail... and have to pay the price of a small car for that (I could get at best about 4.000 US$ of my D3x second hand)?
Sorry I don't understand what you mean by a step backwards?
People looking for improvements in a 1DsIII or D3X (usually mean IQ) will obviously look, with the lack of anything better in 35mm FF to MF as the natural progression and this H4D-31 is now a real consideration. After all, if you shoot sports a MFD will never be in your sights so why a step back?
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^ agree
One of the biggest selling point of any back for me is tethered capability
for example as nice as a D3X is, tethered capture with that camera in 14 bit nothing short of painfully slow, if you shoot people or fashion.
(imo)
it's not always about the megapixel count.
am
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The big news for traditionalists & enthusiasts is the new CFV-50 back. I think that will create more of a buzz than most, if not all, of the H-series announcements. The H4D-31 may be priced very well, but what about the rest of the H series lenses? They send the price for a decent "kit" into the stratosphere. Contrast that with the many, many V-system shooters who already have all the affordable V series lenses they need and the bodies they love. Slap on the CFV-50 and they're in hog heaven, with a bigger sensor, for less overall outlay.
I would count myself to this target group. I own a 501/cm with the typical 50/80/150 lenses....long story cut short: it's collecting dust and yes briefly i was happy with the idea of a CFV-50 back. It's still a heck a lot of money but as 50mpx is total overkill for my needs now and for the next 20 years it would be a one time buy for many many years and I could also live with going from square to 3:4 format.
BUT.....
This sensor is still cropping the FoV of the 50,80,150 and I would loose a fair amount at the wide end and a 40/60/120 looks better, but then....buying new glass?? adding up all the costs I probably would be better of with a H4D-40 + 35-90 zoom gaining AF and other stuff.
Seems to me only actractive for V owners that have already glass like 40, 60, 120mm....now if HB would swap my glass 1 for 1.....
nah, it's sad but MF on an expense level as in the film era is gone, this is now commercial/pro territory...
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Hasselblad are obviously doing quite well with the CFV range of backs for the V-System cameras, so some people must be buying them. David Sommerfield of Hasselblad told me last December that they had sold twice as many of the CFV-39 as they expected to within the first few months. And of course the design and tooling costs for the magazine-styled DB itself were probably paid for in the initial run of the CFV-16. So in a very short space of time we have had 16, 39, and now 50 MP for the old 500 and 200 cameras. On this basis I would expect to see a 60 MP version within two years or so.
John
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I would count myself to this target group. I own a 501/cm with the typical 50/80/150 lenses....long story cut short: it's collecting dust and yes briefly i was happy with the idea of a CFV-50 back. It's still a heck a lot of money but as 50mpx is total overkill for my needs now and for the next 20 years it would be a one time buy for many many years and I could also live with going from square to 3:4 format.
nah, it's sad but MF on an expense level as in the film era is gone, this is now commercial/pro territory...
You could also get a H4D31 with the CF adapter and over time migrate to the H.
It looks like Hasselblad is re'introducing Microstep for the 50MS.
BTW for all those wishing the H would come in a different color than its current color scheme: http://www.hasselbladusa.com/news/hasselblad-meets-ferrari.aspx
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Wow! I am quite excited by Hasselblad's announcements!
The CFV 50 is actually quite reasonably priced and the H4D-31
is as well.
This is great news for people who want to make the leap to MFD!
I am very happy to see that Hasselblad is still committed to the V-system.
They must realize that there are still millions of them still being used.
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I wasn't aware there was a "hate hasselblad set". I've got a lot to learn.
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You didn't realise that Hasselblad made their system closed out of a monopolistic desire to drive competitors out of business, whereas Phase are "open" out of benevolence towards their fellow men? You must get out more!
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It looks like Hasselblad is re'introducing Microstep for the 50MS.
I'm pretty sure the H4D-50MS has been available for months. I was given a quote in May by my dealer. Maybe he was getting ahead of himself?
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I'm pretty sure the H4D-50MS has been available for months. I was given a quote in May by my dealer. Maybe he was getting ahead of himself?
yes the Ms has been out for a while and you can send it in to be updated to this new back, so it can render 200 MPX
am
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yes the Ms has been out for a while and you can send it in to be updated to this new back, so it can render 200 MPX
am
What was it rendering before?
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You could also get a H4D31 with the CF adapter and over time migrate to the H.
Sigh (at myself), yes, but somewhere I have to draw a line about the money involved, I'm not a pro, so there is no ROI :-) with the same money I can also buy a top of the line DSLR + good glass and tradeup my printer to a 24" model.....and still have money left over.
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Impressed and excited as well! It will be interesting to see how Phase One/Leaf will react. IMHO there is no way that they can maintain their current price levels for backs in the 30-40 MP range.
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You didn't realise that Hasselblad made their system closed out of a monopolistic desire to drive competitors out of business, whereas Phase are "open" out of benevolence towards their fellow men? You must get out more!
If you equate a unified/closed system to a "monopolistic desire to drive competitors out of business", then I guess I'm a fan of monopolies. I own Nikon DSLR gear, three Apple computers, an iPhone, an Epson printer, a Jeep, a Cadillac, and, as of yesterday, an H4D-50, all of which are unified/closed systems. Having worked in a monopoly (the old Bell System) for years, and having been a part of the creation of several non-monopoly competitive businesses, Phase One and other manufacturers with open systems are not doing anything "out of benevolence". You're quite naive if you have that belief. It's all about the next profitable quarter.
Or maybe your statement was made with tongue firmly implanted in cheek. :)
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Hasselblad are obviously doing quite well with the CFV range of backs for the V-System cameras, so some people must be buying them. David Sommerfield of Hasselblad told me last December that they had sold twice as many of the CFV-39 as they expected to within the first few months. And of course the design and tooling costs for the magazine-styled DB itself were probably paid for in the initial run of the CFV-16. So in a very short space of time we have had 16, 39, and now 50 MP for the old 500 and 200 cameras. On this basis I would expect to see a 60 MP version within two years or so.
John
Why would one have to wait 2 years? There has been a (Phase One) 60MP product for Hasselblad V for 2 years now already. And you can actually rotate the back (which you cannot do with the CFV). In fact, there's been a (Leaf/Mamiya) 56MP product that will rotate without even having to remove the back!
http://www.leaf-photography.com/products_aptus210r.asp
Steve Hendrix
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I'm pretty sure the H4D-50MS has been available for months. I was given a quote in May by my dealer. Maybe he was getting ahead of himself?
There is a difference between microstep and multishot. There is a 50multishot for awhile now but microstep has not been available since the 39 (the 22 was the last one that provided microstep) and only in Flexcolor.
If you read my previous post you will notice I was mentioning microstep and not multishot...
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There is a difference between microstep and multishot. There is a 50multishot for awhile now but microstep has not been available since the 39 (the 22 was the last one that provided microstep) and only in Flexcolor.
If you read my previous post you will notice I was mentioning microstep and not multishot...
I did read that. What's the difference? Why would they switch and then switch back again?
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Multishot was 4 shots and generated a file which had data for RGGB (Red Green Green Blue). No extrapolation for color. Microstep did the same but did this 4 times where the sensor would be moved 1/2 a pixel (or 1 pixel, I am not sure about that). This generated the same non-extrapolated file but 4-times the size.
Microstep would take 16 shots! Not sure why they dropped it from the 39. I guess it was deemed unneccessary with files that big or too difficult in usage to be practical. I don't know, I can only guess.
I don't know whether microstep is re'introduced. I reckon it will be a somewhat more efficient way that doesn't need 16 shots but less. The resolution being exactly 4times 50MP does make me suspicious this is a further developed version of microstep.
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Multishot was 4 shots and generated a file which had data for RGGB (Red Green Green Blue). No extrapolation for color. Microstep did the same but did this 4 times where the sensor would be moved 1/2 a pixel (or 1 pixel, I am not sure about that). This generated the same non-extrapolated file but 4-times the size.
Microstep would take 16 shots! Not sure why they dropped it from the 39. I guess it was deemed unneccessary with files that big or too difficult in usage to be practical. I don't know, I can only guess.
I don't know whether microstep is re'introduced. I reckon it will be a somewhat more efficient way that doesn't need 16 shots but less. The resolution being exactly 4times 50MP does make me suspicious this is a further developed version of microstep.
Thanks for the clarification. This would easily be the best choice for repro. no need for large format scanners. It would make 600dpi at 1:1 a simple task for almost any size artwork.
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Microstep would take 16 shots! Not sure why they dropped it from the 39. I guess it was deemed unneccessary with files that big or too difficult in usage to be practical. I don't know, I can only guess.
I have wondered about this to and I think the reason is that the effective pixel pitch gets too small?
Does anyone know if the 50mpix CF back will be available in MS mode and also for other cameras besides the Hass V? In the press release it only talks about the CFV-50.
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Microstep would take 16 shots! Not sure why they dropped it from the 39. I guess it was deemed unneccessary with files that big or too difficult in usage to be practical. I don't know, I can only guess.
I think the problem was that 16 shot was too difficult to get a quality capture with. Any movement whatsoever with the camera and the shot was useless.
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If you equate a unified/closed system to a "monopolistic desire to drive competitors out of business", then I guess I'm a fan of monopolies. I own Nikon DSLR gear, three Apple computers, an iPhone, an Epson printer, a Jeep, a Cadillac, and, as of yesterday, an H4D-50, all of which are unified/closed systems. Having worked in a monopoly (the old Bell System) for years, and having been a part of the creation of several non-monopoly competitive businesses, Phase One and other manufacturers with open systems are not doing anything "out of benevolence". You're quite naive if you have that belief. It's all about the next profitable quarter.
Yup, i love the Hasselblad setup. All integrated and no third party stuff to muck with. No complaints here either.
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FYI the 50 now offers a 6 shot mode which is a cross between multi and micro shot. I don't have the tech behind it but have heard the results are very good and may well take the wind out of the sails of those claiming that their latest single shot camera can out-perform any multi-shot. :)
Nick-T
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FYI the 50 now offers a 6 shot mode which is a cross between multi and micro shot. I don't have the tech behind it but have heard the results are very good and may well take the wind out of the sails of those claiming that their latest single shot camera can out-perform any multi-shot. :)
Nick-T
Are these files indeed 200mp?
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FYI the 50 now offers a 6 shot mode which is a cross between multi and micro shot. I don't have the tech behind it but have heard the results are very good and may well take the wind out of the sails of those claiming that their latest single shot camera can out-perform any multi-shot. :)
Nick-T
The tech behind it I find quite interesting, I can think of some ways how they can do 4times the res without 16shots when you would use the color information of 1 multishot to extrapolate into the extra res of a microstep image. I come to 7 takes in that case but I think it must be something like this.
Anyway, I hope the firmware upgrade and update will be available for 39MP backs too....
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Are these files indeed 200mp?
Jonathan that is my understanding but I await further technical detail.
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The tech behind it I find quite interesting, I can think of some ways how they can do 4times the res without 16shots when you would use the color information of 1 multishot to extrapolate into the extra res of a microstep image. I come to 7 takes in that case but I think it must be something like this.
Anyway, I hope the firmware upgrade and update will be available for 39MP backs too....
Ray I had heard originally that it would be an 8-shot so your reasoning is not un-reasonable! Not sure how they are getting it to work with 6 shots but they have some pretty clever people in R&D..
Nick-T
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Sorry I don't understand what you mean by a step backwards?
People looking for improvements in a 1DsIII or D3X (usually mean IQ) will obviously look, with the lack of anything better in 35mm FF to MF as the natural progression and this H4D-31 is now a real consideration. After all, if you shoot sports a MFD will never be in your sights so why a step back?
- live view
- DR
- usable screen with instant pixel level sharpness confirmation
- cold weather usability
- weight and bulk
- rugdness and weather resistance
- autonomy (number of shots per battery)
- value - OK the camera is reasonnably cheap but replacing even a fraction of my current Nikon lens line up would cost 20.000+ US$
- long glass, wide glass, wide T/S lens,...
- wide set of lenses from other makes through directly (Zeiss, Schneider,...)
- lenses reusable on other platforms (EOS, 4/3, Sigma,...)
- lack of VR/IS
- AF (speed and accuracy in lower light situation)
- ...
It would make sense for studio use thanks to the better thethering and leaf lenses, but that is about the only application when the H4D-31 would have real world value compared to the D3x. There will also be a bit more detailed compared to an optimally sharpened D3x file.
I used to own a Hassy H1 with the 35mm and 80mm lens. Was always disapointed by the amount of distrosion present on the 35mm for such a bulky and heavy lens. The system had some nice features though, like the way mirror lock up was implemented. But that was about it.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Why would one have to wait 2 years? There has been a (Phase One) 60MP product for Hasselblad V for 2 years now already. And you can actually rotate the back (which you cannot do with the CFV). In fact, there's been a (Leaf/Mamiya) 56MP product that will rotate without even having to remove the back!
Steve Hendrix
Steve
You have a very good point, but one which misses the reason that the CFV series of backs manages to exist and (so far) be economically viable for Hasselblad. The first part of the equation is price - Hasselblad have cunningly set the price of all the CFVs so far at a point which is considerably less than the equivalent Phase or Leaf back and just about affordable for the well-heeled amateur. The second, very important one, is the style. The CFV backs match the 1950s style of the V-System cameras perfectly, with all the right curves, bits of chrome, and faux-leather covering. They even have a little "V" on the release button, just like the old film magazines. Many users of the the old 500s love them because of the style and look of the camera system as much as anything else. It's a bit like driving a vintage car. In this context, Phase or Leaf backs, technically wonderful though they are, simply don't cut the mustard. The test for a 500 user is - "Would Victor have approved?" And in the case of the CFV back, I think he would have loved it.
John
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Ray I had heard originally that it would be an 8-shot so your reasoning is not un-reasonable! Not sure how they are getting it to work with 6 shots but they have some pretty clever people in R&D..
Nick-T
You can use 4 shots but then you get mutated bayer pattern and the colors will not be that good. The more shots you use the more color info you will get for each area - with 16 shots you get all three color components for each of the 200M sites (and double info on the green component)
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My immediate wish list would be a wider than 28mm for use with the tilt shift and an updated 35mm..
Shaun
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Found some photos of the revised 50mm II and 120mm II lenses at David Farkas' usual excellent coverage of Photokina:
http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/2010/09/photokina-2010-day-2-look-at-other.html
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Yes, MTF's would be nice and some spec's of both lenses. The 50 is interesting when it is a better performer than the previous one. What in heavens name can be improved to the 120?? Less sharp? Faster AF? The thing I would like most is compatability with the HTS!