Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: roskav on August 17, 2010, 09:54:49 am
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Hi All ... My workhorse lens (Rodenstock apo Sironar 35mm digital) is fantastic for getting very wide shots by combining 4 images taken at 45 135 225 and 315 degrees on my Gottschalt DS 30. The image circle is huge albeit soft at the extremes. I'm just fed up with it though .. the amount of PP time is massive especially when you take into account there is a gain file to get for each part of the shot. Back on the machine there are 8 files to put together to make one... it all takes time and they don't always work. Then besides that if you are shooting in a patchy day when the sun is flitting in and out of the clouds.....
The 24 mm in one shot wouldn't even come close to getting wide image that I can produce as far as I remember from previous discussions, but might offer a bit of relief ... although the image circle doesn't allow much shift on an Aptus 75. I'd love to hear from anyone who has worked with this 35mm and gone wider and hear their impressions!
Best
Ros
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Hi Ros:
I'm not familiar with the Leaf back, I use Phase. Why do you have to shoot a gain file for each position of the pano? Are you shifting the lens differently? When I do these sort of Panos I like to use the back in a vertical format and shoot many exposures across the view, the stitching seems better with more options for the software. Perhaps you are trying to just edge stitch these by butting them together. That may make it nightmare with vignetting, etc. Do you use PhotoMerge in PS or some other software?
Jeffrey
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Hi Jeffrey
I thought that I could have confused the issue talking about degrees. What I meant was this ...
http://www.gottschalt.de/de/kameras_02.html
you rotate the shifted lens first at 45 deg then in 90 deg steps for the other three shots. They are all merged together for stitching for one big wide angle file. Each shot I take has to have a gain file for falloff and colour cast. These eight shots are proccessed in Leaf capture then the resulting 4 are exported to tiff.. merged in Photoshop and then worked on. I would love to be able to get a nice wide angle shot in one go. There are options I know .. one of which is the Rodenstock 23mm.
Best
Ros
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Hi Jeffrey
I thought that I could have confused the issue talking about degrees. What I meant was this ...
http://www.gottschalt.de/de/kameras_02.html
you rotate the shifted lens first at 45 deg then in 90 deg steps for the other three shots. They are all merged together for stitching for one big wide angle file. Each shot I take has to have a gain file for falloff and colour cast. These eight shots are proccessed in Leaf capture then the resulting 4 are exported to tiff.. merged in Photoshop and then worked on. I would love to be able to get a nice wide angle shot in one go. There are options I know .. one of which is the Rodenstock 23mm.
Best
Ros
Hi Ros, there is another option that perhaps you should explore;
In Capture One PRO there's a bundled script that takes the raw files, processes them into 8-bit tiff, then takes them into Photoshop and uses the Photomerge function, set for flat stitch. This works very well.
At the moment Capture One still does not correct lens cast and falloff on Leaf files so you still need to go through Leaf Capture, this is being worked on and LCC for Leaf files will be available in Capture One soon.
Hope this helps
yair
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Thanks Yair .. will have a look at that. It would help if they stayed 16 bit but that would let the spare machine do a good bit of the work.
Best Ros
PS Presume you will be in Photokina.. not sure if I will make it but will look you up if I do.
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Hi Ros:
Gottcha! I use the 23HR and like it very much. I had the 24XL Schneider when that was the only option but the 23 is way better in regard to coverage, but not a huge circle by any means. There is some distortion but that can be corrected by Alpa's PS plug in which works great too. Using a wider lens rather than stitching will certainly be faster and easier, but you may have gotten used to those huge files you are making. If there's room in your bag, I'd go for the 23HR.
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Hi Yair .. hope all is well. Just following up on this. I've just started to try out Capture 1. Has there been any movement with regard to including the calibration files in the process for the stitching script? Would like to try this out.
All the best
Ros
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Hi Yair .. hope all is well. Just following up on this. I've just started to try out Capture 1. Has there been any movement with regard to including the calibration files in the process for the stitching script? Would like to try this out.
All the best
Ros
Hi Ros, if you apply the LCC prior to running the script then it works fine, albeit a bit slow (but it warns you that the process may take a while...) just make sure that the files (images and gain) are in their rawest format i.e. shot compressed to CF card (or tethered to C1)
Cheers from Portugal, yair
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Try using a longer lens. Makes stitching a bigger task, especially since you might have to manually stitch the shots together.
The Sun and Clouds will be a challenge every time. I don't know a plug-in for that.
Read this article from Chris Barrett. Good info.
http://christopherbarrett.net/blog/?p=1468
- Rudy
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Why not use cylindrical stitching with a robust pano head like this one http://reallyrightstuff.com/ProductDesc.aspx?code=PG-02-LLR&type=4&eq=&desc=PG-02-LLR%3a-Pano-Gimbal-Head-with-LLR&key=it (http://reallyrightstuff.com/ProductDesc.aspx?code=PG-02-LLR&type=4&eq=&desc=PG-02-LLR%3a-Pano-Gimbal-Head-with-LLR&key=it)?
- you will only use the central portion of the lens and will have perfect sharp images from corner to corner with no light fall off,
- you will not need to shift the lens and will therefore only need to perform one lens calibration (or maybe none),
- you will not be limited anymore by the lens coverage,
- it is probably faster,
- if you stick to reasonnable field of views you will be able to do flat stitching which will result in the exact same geometry, less the distorsion of your current lens.
The only drawback is the need to purchase a good pano head.
Cheers,
Bernard
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HartbleiCam?
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Hi Thanks for those replies! Much appreciated and interesting. I haven't tried doing a nodal stitch yet with Architecture but the lack of light fall off sounds like it would be worthwhile. I do know someone who was using a MFDB with a 200 or so mm lens and doing stitched facade shots of around 60 or so per final image. Sounds like a lot of work though for one image. I do have a manfrotto head that I use for 360 deg QTVRs so I could try that maybe with a 47mm digitar and see how it goes. Lens shifting is good if you want a wide shot where most things are at a distance. Unfortunately my technical camera doesn't allow the back to move independently so there is always a bit of movement with the position of the lens at capture, so the stitches always need a bit of first aid once they are done.
One of the big problems with architecture, and particularly outside shots, is instead of waiting for a break in the cloud and taking a shot in a couple of seconds... you are relying on a good break of a minute or more where the light is even. Another problem .. and this is just because of volume... is that if you are stitching a panorama of say 10 shots from a MFDB... it is only at the later stages that you might notice moire in a distant louvered panel ... which means going back to the raw files and applying selective moire reduction and going through the whole process again.
Again thanks all and hope it's sunny where you all are!
R
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Hello Roskav
would an image angle of 126,2 degrees be sufficient with a 17mm - 80 Mpix and ONE SHOT ?
Or even 180 degrees (circle with about 60 Mpix) with the new Canon Fisheye zoom 8-15mm ?
Then take a look to our HCam-B1 here:
http://hcam.de/en/hartbleicam1.htm
you can see sample images and cutouts (Leaf aptus 12 and Phase IQ180 ) in the following thread on GetDPI here:
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28197
some more samples:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hartblei/5981888195/in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hartblei/5944095267/in/photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/hartblei/5944062525/in/photostream
You will be faster than with any other view camera solution, actually nearly like a 35MM DSLR or a 645 DF on a tripod.
and you will still be able to stitch to 135 degrees if wanted (17mmTSE) or with the 24mm TSE with still 108,9 degrees on one shot.
Our Pricelist is here:
http://www.hcam.de/de/Pricelist_7_2011.pdf
and for anybody who wants to do this on their DSLR´s look here:
http://hcam.de/en/canon-tse-collar.htm
Greetings from Munich
Stefan Steib HCam.de
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Hi, Stefan...
Will the CAPCam do pan-and-stitch and shift-and-stitch automatically (and remotely) without having to buy accessories?
The would be a limit to the rotation (pan angle).
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Hi Dick
You mean motorized and remote stitching ? In theory we could build this, adding motors to the knobs of the lenses.
if money is no concern..... ? It is also possible to do an App for an iPhone/iPad for this , I heard this is about 3 months and a 5 digit fee. Are you interested ? :)
greetings from Munich
Stefan
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Hi, Stefan...
There are no knobs on the CAPCam - you just need the software. I hope they make a software Development Kit available.
I had thought about adding stepper motors to a P3, but it would be difficult on the side shift, where you have a thumb wheel rather than a knob... would it be easier with the Hartblei?
Dick
Hi Dick
You mean motorized and remote stitching ? In theory we could build this, adding motors to the knobs of the lenses.
if money is no concern..... ? It is also possible to do an App for an iPhone/iPad for this , I heard this is about 3 months and a 5 digit fee. Are you interested ? :)
greetings from Munich
Stefan
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Hi Dick
Sorry - wrong answer to your question - CAPCam - Not HCam ! :) I was thinking you meant the Canon lenses........
As much as I know the CAPCam could do this. But best would be you ask the guys themself:
http://www.gfae.ch/ViewCameras/CAPcam.html
http://www.gfae.ch/
Greetings from Munich
Stefan
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Hi Dick
Sorry - wrong answer to your question - CAPCam - Not HCam ! :) I was thinking you meant the Canon lenses........
As much as I know the CAPCam could do this. But best would be you ask the guys themself:
http://www.gfae.ch/ViewCameras/CAPcam.html
http://www.gfae.ch/
Greetings from Munich
Stefan
Thanks, Stefan... I had an Email from Charlie Gfeller a month ago telling me that he would update me in "a few weeks"
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Hi Stefan,
How does the HCam "wake up" and trigger the back to take a shot? I hope it is done without cables, for backs which are activated directly (via electronic contacts) by the back's "usual" body? (usual being Mamiya 645AFD, etc.)
Ray
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Hi Ray
the HCam is a fully electronic Microcomputer controlled camera. Imagine it as a Mamiya 645 DF without mirror.
We have the wakeup signal generated by our (shutter control) Computer, you can switch it on or off if wanted and we can even
finetune the values in our firmware if new backs or firmwares appear.
We can also do first or second shutter plane synchronized flash, untethered 1/4000 sec or longest 32 sec of exposure (just like the DF - it´s the same shutter we buy from Mamiya).
Our Canon Mount computer (number 2) reads the exif data from the lens including Focus distance, aperture, focal lenght, and could drive the autofocus motors (as electric driven manual focus ,will be a B2 feature). We can step the aperture in 1/8th of stops if wanted, standard is 1/4. We can use timers, Delays, Longtime exposures, light triggers, Radio remote control, all modern electronic equipment used by DSLR´s.
But we use a connection cable - as we have All backs supported.
This is a modern Camera. It´s just looking a bit "Frankenstein".
greetings from Munich
Stefan
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Hi Stefan,
I was very excited when you first said this:
Imagine it as a Mamiya 645 DF without mirror
- that would work with every single M645AFD-mount back, including mine.
But then you dashed my hopes when you said this:
But we use a connection cable - as we have All backs supported.
Oh dear; that's what I really didn't want to hear. The problem is, not all backs can take a sync cable! My Kodak DCS645M, and the Mamiya ZD back, being two examples. These can only be activated by their electronic contact strip, or tethered over Firewire. They do work perfectly on a Mamiya 645 DF; but from what you say, they do not work on your HCam. So it's not really "a Mamiya 645 DF without mirror" after all.
There are Mamiya adapters for the ZD back (to the RB67, 4x5 Graflox slider etc.) which do use the electronic contacts - I was hoping that the HCam did too. Like this:
ZD Back Adapter HX401 (http://www.mamiya.co.jp/img/20090326/hx401.jpg)
Ray
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You guys and your fancy View lens and fancy set ups. Do you want to get 140+ degree, with one shot? Mamiya made a 24mm fisheye lens that is sharp all the way out to the edge. And it only cost about $700 at ebay. With the use of de-fisheye software, it make the image a super wide angle lens without the fisheye look. I am working on a set-up that will give me 200+ degree angle, with one shot. Going to Vegas to test it out.
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Ray
don´t despair ! :)
If you really want this we can make it. It´s all a question of the price. There is this 701 adapterplate for the RZ Pro IID it has the mount for the M645 back with contacts, we could
put this plate to the HCam and connect the cables inside. The Plate is not cheap around 500 €, milling it to fit the HCam slider + some additional cabling work, I guess we could do it for around 1k €. It was just not necessary until now as our customers use mostly new Phase and Leaf backs on the HCam.
But- we always listen to our customers......... :)
Greetings from Munich
Stefan
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Lester -
the HCam can do 180 degrees up to 80 Mpix with one shot and the new 8-15mm Canon Fisheye Zoom. See here a sample shot on a tradeshow in Frankfurt,not yet optimized, just a fast tryout (still with a Canon Protoype - this was back in April):
http://www.hcam.de/downloads/15mmFisheyeonP45plus.jpg
There are several software packages to use to de-fisheye. Do you know this one ?
http://www.imagetrendsinc.com/products/prodpage_hemi.asp
quite interesting approach, not exactly a full rectilinear solution but still looking very natural as people outside of the middle will not be distorted as with other packages.
greetings from Munich
Stefan
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Ray
don´t despair ! :)
If you really want this we can make it. It´s all a question of the price. There is this 701 adapterplate for the RZ Pro IID it has the mount for the M645 back with contacts, we could
put this plate to the HCam and connect the cables inside. The Plate is not cheap around 500 €, milling it to fit the HCam slider + some additional cabling work, I guess we could do it for around 1k €. It was just not necessary until now as our customers use mostly new Phase and Leaf backs on the HCam.
But- we always listen to our customers......... :)
Greetings from Munich
Stefan
Stefan,
I am impressed! :) Very impressed, in fact, that you show such flexibility and can-do attitude to problem solving. I think your company will go far.
Because of the cabling to the plate, I imagine that this special version would not work as a slider? - would it be like a B1-i? Would it also lose the ability to later on change the back plate mount to another platform?
Ray
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You guys and your fancy View lens and fancy set ups. Do you want to get 140+ degree, with one shot? Mamiya made a 24mm fisheye lens that is sharp all the way out to the edge. And it only cost about $700 at ebay. With the use of de-fisheye software, it make the image a super wide angle lens without the fisheye look. I am working on a set-up that will give me 200+ degree angle, with one shot. Going to Vegas to test it out.
The 24mm is one damn fine lens, I can certainly attest.
But how are you going to get "200+ degree angle, with one shot" out of it?
Ray
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Ray
I think we could do this even with the slider. We already have a "hole" actually a kind of "channel" where the transport holders of the slider run through.
If we use this to get into the back of the slider with the cabling and inside of the body some kind of a flex cable (like use in Printers) this should work.
Of course for the HCam-B1i this would be more simple to do when there is no slider.
The slider would be probably a special edition, but we can replace it completely with a standard one if you want to exchange later (the complete slider is about 900€+ work for exchange and calibration)
Greetings from Munich
Stefan
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I know I'm coming to this discussion a bit late, but have a look at this: http://www.multistitch.com/
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I know I'm coming to this discussion a bit late, but have a look at this: http://www.multistitch.com/
Yes, I had thought about an off-set sensor board.
A very cheap simple fiddly solution that could be made and sold with a good profit margin for one third ¿or a quarter? of what they are charging?
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At the tail end of it, yes. This started as a solution to my own frustration with the small digital formats and has evolved into a business. Wish us luck!
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At the tail end of it, yes. This started as a solution to my own frustration with the small digital formats and has evolved into a business. Wish us luck!
How long does it take to do a four-shot stitch?
I think the CAPcam does 4 or 6 shot remotely at the press of a button - as a built-in standard function of the camera.
Multi-stitch might be half the cost of a proper sliding back... but we could make our own for a hundred pounds?
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How long does it take to do a four-shot stitch?
I think the CAPcam does 4 or 6 shot remotely at the press of a button - as a built-in standard function of the camera.
Multi-stitch might be half the cost of a proper sliding back... but we could make our own for a hundred pounds?
The shooting of 4 shots takes about the same time as loading and shooting 4 sheets of film. In my experience stitching them together is a 5-15 minute process depending on image sizes and the computer being used. Our main advantage over "proper" sliding backs is that we don't just slide, we go 2-over-2. Having been down the development curve I can tell you that your hundred pounds won't get you very far unless you yourself are an extremely talented machinist and don't count your own time in.
I've taken a look at the capcam but have not found pricing info. It seems an expensive item though and larger and heavier than your Sinar. I have not found any info on how you actually compose a photograph with it. If you can send anything along that sheds more light on it I'd love to see it.
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Hi,
Shifting lens will actually introduce parallax. To avoid that the camera body needs to be shifted and the lens be standing still.
If we shoot rotational panos with rectilinear projection the off axis images will be warped in software, so resolution will still be lost.
In essence, I agree with Bernard. Rotational panos, a decent "pano head" and great software makes a great solution.
Best regards
Erik
Why not use cylindrical stitching with a robust pano head like this one http://reallyrightstuff.com/ProductDesc.aspx?code=PG-02-LLR&type=4&eq=&desc=PG-02-LLR%3a-Pano-Gimbal-Head-with-LLR&key=it (http://reallyrightstuff.com/ProductDesc.aspx?code=PG-02-LLR&type=4&eq=&desc=PG-02-LLR%3a-Pano-Gimbal-Head-with-LLR&key=it)?
- you will only use the central portion of the lens and will have perfect sharp images from corner to corner with no light fall off,
- you will not need to shift the lens and will therefore only need to perform one lens calibration (or maybe none),
- you will not be limited anymore by the lens coverage,
- it is probably faster,
- if you stick to reasonnable field of views you will be able to do flat stitching which will result in the exact same geometry, less the distorsion of your current lens.
The only drawback is the need to purchase a good pano head.
Cheers,
Bernard