Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: lowep on August 09, 2010, 04:09:05 pm
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Is camera shake more of an issue with MF digital sensors than with film, and if so (why?) can it be partly reduced by using a bigger tripod?
I am working with an eMotion75 on a Contax 645. Every time I fire the shutter the mirror goes KABOOM - not as explosively as a Hassy but more than enough to scare away the crows. So mostly I shoot with a cable release and the camera locked down firmly on a medium-sized Manfrotto tripod. Despite this I come across traces of what I believe to be camera shake in quite a few images. Sure it does not help that I often use rather slow shutter speeds - but I would have thought that if the camera is securely locked down on the tripod there should be no camera shake whatsoever no matter how slow the shutter speed, right?
Heck even when the mirror is locked up I still get slightly shaky images sometimes.
So am starting to suspect the problem may be that my tripod is not heavy enough to hold the camera firmly in place.
Hence my question: what size tripod do you use with your MFDB system?
What if any issues have you encountered with camera shake when shooting MF digital compared with shooting with either a smaller sensor DSLR or (JFK forbid!) film?
(of course I could have asked instead can I just blame the problem on gear and solve it by spending more money (on a bigger tripod) - but in the end opted to phrase the whole thing differently
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I'd also like to know what recommendations people have for heavy duty tripods.
Ball head is just as important for steady shots. I just ordered an Acratech Ultimate ballhead for my MF and LF (film) cameras.
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Is camera shake more of an issue with MF digital sensors than with film, and if so (why?) can it be partly reduced by using a bigger tripod?
I am working with an eMotion75 on a Contax 645. Every time I fire the shutter the mirror goes KABOOM - not as explosively as a Hassy but more than enough to scare away the crows. So mostly I shoot with a cable release and the camera locked down firmly on a medium-sized Manfrotto tripod. Despite this I come across traces of what I believe to be camera shake in quite a few images. Sure it does not help that I often use rather slow shutter speeds - but I would have thought that if the camera is securely locked down on the tripod there should be no camera shake whatsoever no matter how slow the shutter speed, right?
Heck even when the mirror is locked up I still get slightly shaky images sometimes.
So am starting to suspect the problem may be that my tripod is not heavy enough to hold the camera firmly in place.
Hence my question: what size tripod do you use with your MFDB system?
What if any issues have you encountered with camera shake when shooting MF digital compared with shooting with either a smaller sensor DSLR or (JFK forbid!) film?
(of course I could have asked instead can I just blame the problem on gear and solve it by spending more money (on a bigger tripod) - but in the end opted to phrase the whole thing differently
I currently use a Manfrotto 028 (aka Triman) tripod and a Benro KS2 ball head (Arca-type fitting). No issues with camera shake up to 200mm, with a Mamiya 645AFD and 9-micron pixel back, on a Really Right Stuff plate for Mamiya. I normally use mirror lockup + self timer when taking long exposures.
You don't say exactly what your "medium-sized Manfrotto tripod" is, but the Triman is on the large side of medium while still being eminently portable. It's extremely rigid thanks to the triangular geometry made by each of its twin-shank legs and broad-shouldered top.
I also use a 30 kg Skywatcher equatorial mount, which is rock solid under a 2800mm focal length, but that's a tad niche-y
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Is camera shake more of an issue with MF digital sensors than with film, and if so (why?) can it be partly reduced by using a bigger tripod?
I use a 10kg Manfrotto with a 400 geared head for my P3, and a carbon Gitzo...
I also have a 10m Manfrotto Agnoscope, which I intend to use with the Sinar P3 and a Clauss remote pano head.
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Hence my question: what size tripod do you use with your MFDB system?
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RRS TVC-33 and RRS BH-55 ballhead; Gitzo 5541 Monopod with RRS MH-01 monopod head
Steve
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I have a 2 series, 3 series and 5 series Gitzo CF pods. I use the 2 with a Gitzo 1278 head on it for MF only when traveling, and then try and keep it relatively low (not fully extended). My main tripod is the 3541 XLS and it has a CUBE on it, and I happily use this pod even fully extended for MF, though rarely do I need all three legs fully extended (and I'm 200CM tall). I also have the 5560 Giant with a Gitzo 3780 head on it when I need to go really tall and shoot from a ladder.
So bottom line is you can make almost anything of decent rigidity work if you use it intelligently, but the more rigid pods will consistently generate better results regardless of how you use them. (Note that when we speak of rigidity, we're really speaking to both overall rigidity AND vibration damping characteristics; both are important.)
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what size tripod do you use with your MFDB system?
I think the size doesn't matter... the rigidity of the entire system is more important.
So...
1. a stable tripod - preferably without center column if you don't need one
2. appropriate camera plate (Kirk, RRS, Novoflex and the like)
3. appropriate tripod head
As to the tripod: less segments/extensions are basically better.
I am a big fan of wood tripods as they absorb even heavy vibration extremely fast (even when they are fully extended).
I have 2 wood tripods (a large one with single extension, i.e. 2 segments, and a medium sized with double extension, i.e. 3 segments).
I also have a large Induro Carbon tripod (new series) which is very good but I definitely prefer my wood tripods.
Wood tripods are far less heavy and large as you might think first... so maybe give it a try. They are also far less expensive.
Tripod head: I use a Gitzo GH3780QR for my Contax (mostly)... I also use leveling bases with a pano base attached on them (occasionally).
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I use a Gitzo GT3541LS Systematic with Manfrotto 410 geared head. Tripod is rated at 40lbs.
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Is camera shake more of an issue with MF digital sensors than with film, and if so (why?) can it be partly reduced by using a bigger tripod?
I am working with an eMotion75 on a Contax 645. Every time I fire the shutter the mirror goes KABOOM - not as explosively as a Hassy but more than enough to scare away the crows. So mostly I shoot with a cable release and the camera locked down firmly on a medium-sized Manfrotto tripod. Despite this I come across traces of what I believe to be camera shake in quite a few images. Sure it does not help that I often use rather slow shutter speeds - but I would have thought that if the camera is securely locked down on the tripod there should be no camera shake whatsoever no matter how slow the shutter speed, right?
Heck even when the mirror is locked up I still get slightly shaky images sometimes.
Not as explosively as the Hassy? Really? If you lock up the mirror first on both the Mamiya with a focal plane shutter and a Hassy with a leaf shutter lens and compare them, I think you will find that the Hassy has virtually no vibration and with the Mamiya the vibration is still quite apparent. In fact, from the images I have seen taken with longer lenses on the Mamiya/Phase camera using longer lenses and slow shutter speeds, there appears to be significant blurring in files with the higher mp backs like the P65. However, don't take my word for it, or anyone else's. Run the tests yourself with 150mm, 200 and 300mm lenses on both systems at 1/4 to 1/60 of a second.
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For this problem I drilled a hole in the center column of my tripod, attached a climbing carabiner using a butterfly screw and nut, and then will hang a sand bag (or my camera bag) from it. Really helps holding the tripod steady.
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I use a Gitzo 3540XLS with an excellent head without any problems. I am putting together a Sachtler system that should be able to handle even more.
I totally disagree on the Hasselblads 'shutter explosivity'. Introduce a bit of delay between rising the mirror and the shutter actuation and you are good to go. Flip your mirror up and every hint of vibration is gone. Have you actually used a H or are you simply repeating a message that is circulating online for ages?
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Not as explosively as the Hassy? Really? If you lock up the mirror first on both the Mamiya with a focal plane shutter and a Hassy with a leaf shutter lens and compare them, I think you will find that the Hassy has virtually no vibration and with the Mamiya the vibration is still quite apparent. In fact, from the images I have seen taken with longer lenses on the Mamiya/Phase camera using longer lenses and slow shutter speeds, there appears to be significant blurring in files with the higher mp backs like the P65. However, don't take my word for it, or anyone else's. Run the tests yourself with 150mm, 200 and 300mm lenses on both systems at 1/4 to 1/60 of a second.
I checked out a 300mm the other day...
I was too lazy and ill to get out the pro gear, but
Using a
Gitzo 1325 Mk2
MLU
Wire release
1/200 to 1/350
H3D11-50
Brickwork res at 500m was limited by the pixel size ...the mortar was only about 2 pixels wire and there was no sign of camera shake
I did not try slower shutter speeds.
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I did a lot of testing when I first got my Gitzo 2531LVL, RRS B55, Mamiya 645 AFDII/P45+
Hanging your equipment bag from the center hook and mirror lockup both made the biggest difference (both equally significant)
remote shutter release and your other hand on the top of the camera (mirror box) also helped
I was surprised that hanging your equipment bag was such a large improvement
Marc
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I think slower shutter speeds will aggravate the vibration so MLU is needed and delay if possible with cable or remote release, sometimes it will benefit weighting down the pod with a bag.
Check all the rubber and corking on the gear as I find a lot of pros don't give a damn about these little things and you have metal to metal fittings (horror) to contribute to the problem.
Try to use the thickest legs before going down to the thinner ones for extensions.
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I've been using the same inexpensive and unsophisticated MK1 Benbo tripod for the last 25+ years. It faithfully follows me everywhere...
Heavy kit that follows me everywhere without me having to carry it really appeals to me... does this work "straight out of the box"... or do you have to train it to walk to heel?
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Hence my question: what size tripod do you use with your MFDB system?
Not using MF anymore, but the camera I use has the same pixel pitch and similar weight compared to MF.
The 2 tripods I have been using to get optimal sharpness are:
- Gitzo 5531s
- RRS TVC-33
I like the RRS because of its lighter weight, but I believe that I get a bit better sharpness still when using the Gitzo. I have not done any rigorous comparison though. On the other hand it might have to do with the fact that the locking mechanism of the RRS is a bit different. I am still experimenting a bit.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I was surprised that hanging your equipment bag was such a large improvement
Hi Marc,
Very good point indeed.
Cheers,
Bernard
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thanks for pointing out that MANY factors apart from tripod size and weight effect camera shake, and also the good suggestions for various options to investigate including sandbag, gearbag, amount of extension, use of center column etc to explore before investing in a new tripod.
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I've been using a basic Manfrotto 055 tripod with a basic 229 head for 7 years...dragging it around in planes, cars etc. mostly with 645 and "compact" view cameras without any major issues.
As ced above has suggested: MLU and self timer if possible, a cable release and carefully mounting and fitting the tripod.
It does help if the bridge you're standing on doesn't wobble:-)
Yair
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usually its me wobbling that's the problem
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thanks for pointing out that MANY factors apart from tripod size and weight effect camera shake, and also the good suggestions for various options to investigate including sandbag, gearbag, amount of extension, use of center column etc to explore before investing in a new tripod.
¿Have you done tests to establish how much shake you get when? ...then you can asses how much the techniques help.
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When using an HD4 50 megapixel Hasselblad with mirror up and cable release, the camera shake is not discernible at any shutter speed. Of course a sturdy tripod must be used, but this urban legend that persists on this site about Hasselblads being an inferior MF camaera is totally false! The focus is extraordinary; the lenses are tack sharp; holding this instrument in your hands is pure ecstasy.
Stanley
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When using an HD4 50 megapixel Hasselblad with mirror up and cable release, the camera shake is not discernible at any shutter speed. Of course a sturdy tripod must be used, but this urban legend that persists on this site about Hasselblads being an inferior MF camaera is totally false! The focus is extraordinary; the lenses are tack sharp; holding this instrument in your hands is pure ecstasy.
Stanley
The mirror noise is what created the myth,,, and when the mirror drops back down it does shake the camera... but this has no effect on picture sharpness as it occurs after the exposure. If you do not use mirror lock-up you can set a delay to let the vibrations die away after the mirror swings up and before the exposure.
With the mirror locked up the leaf shutter produces no (discernible) camera shake.
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....when the mirror drops back down it does shake the camera... but this has no effect on picture sharpness as it occurs after the exposure...
Just like thunder and lightning. Does the mirror mechanism of the Contax 645 and other MF cameras work in the same way?
If this is the case then an MF SLR should be just as easy to handhold at low shutter speeds as say a Mamiya 7, right or wrong?
The tripod I use for everything is an old Manfrotto "Silver Jubilee" Silver190. I am not sure how it fits size/weight-wise into Manfrotto's current lineup.
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....when the mirror drops back down it does shake the camera... but this has no effect on picture sharpness as it occurs after the exposure...
Does the mirror mechanism of the Contax 645 and other MF cameras work in the same way?
the red part is just half the story. Before the mirror drops back... it swings up. Before exposure. And that of course introduces mirror shake.
But on the H you can set a shutter delay to reduce mirror shake.
The Contax is a focal plane shutter camera. And you can't set a shutter delay. So basically it's more prone to suffer from mirror/shutter shake.
However the Contax' mirror and shutter are not so bad. 1/125'' is doable in any case with very good results. You can get acceptable results down to 1/30'' without mirror lock (you'll see some motion blur but it's not destroying the image.
These are the technical limitations... IMO.
Besides it depends on your skills shooting hand held.
Also a monopod will help a lot, however you won't shoot at 1/15'' even with a monopod as mirror shake is clearly visible. You can, of course, use the 2'' mirror lock even with a monopod... but it highly depends on what you are shooting (2'' is quite long if you are shooting moving subjects...)
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Ask 10 photographers about tripods and you will get 11 different answers, so here's my 2 cents. After reading diglloyd and a few others I put my own tripods to the test. Here are the results: Lightweight carbon fiber has less vibration than heavy aluminum.
Contrary to popular opinion extended center posts are not unstable. Good technique is critical to good results. My heavy Bogen tripod vibrated much more than a Gitzo 2 series carbon fiber, and Gitzo 3 series carbon fiber was no more stable than the 2 series. The Gitzo 2 is rock solid with the center post extended under ideal conditions, i.e. no wind or an unbalanced setup. The great thing about this is small tripods can give superb results and be used for hiking/backpacking. Technique (with Contax 645) is to use a cable release, mirror lock up or 2 sec delay that automatically locks mirror upon release and delays shutter 2 seconds. 2 seconds is plenty of time for 0 vibration on these carbon fiber tripods. 1/15 sec to 1/4 sec are the speeds to be avoided if you can't lock the mirror. All my tests were specific to Contax 645, Gitzo and Bogen tripods. Field experience substantiates my ideal condition tests and exposures of minutes result in sharp sharp photographs. Once you start using solid tripods and solid technique sharpness then becomes a function of aperture, 1or 2 and sometimes 3 of the middle aperatures on a given lens will give optimum performance, avoid wide open and the smallest aperture unless factors dictate otherwise (depth of field, stopping motion etc.).
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Ask 10 photographers about tripods and you will get 11 different answers, so here's my 2 cents. After reading diglloyd and a few others I put my own tripods to the test. Here are the results: Lightweight carbon fiber has less vibration than heavy aluminum.
Contrary to popular opinion extended center posts are not unstable. Good technique is critical to good results. My heavy Bogen tripod vibrated much more than a Gitzo 2 series carbon fiber, and Gitzo 3 series carbon fiber was no more stable than the 2 series. The Gitzo 2 is rock solid with the center post extended under ideal conditions, i.e. no wind or an unbalanced setup. The great thing about this is small tripods can give superb results and be used for hiking/backpacking. Technique (with Contax 645) is to use a cable release, mirror lock up or 2 sec delay that automatically locks mirror upon release and delays shutter 2 seconds. 2 seconds is plenty of time for 0 vibration on these carbon fiber tripods. 1/15 sec to 1/4 sec are the speeds to be avoided if you can't lock the mirror. All my tests were specific to Contax 645, Gitzo and Bogen tripods. Field experience substantiates my ideal condition tests and exposures of minutes result in sharp sharp photographs. Once you start using solid tripods and solid technique sharpness then becomes a function of aperture, 1or 2 and sometimes 3 of the middle aperatures on a given lens will give optimum performance, avoid wide open and the smallest aperture unless factors dictate otherwise (depth of field, stopping motion etc.).
How do you consistently test for vibration dampening? I recently bought a compact Gitzo traveler CF as my old aluminum Manfrotto has a cracked hinge - it still works, though. I'd like to compare them, especially with my heavier cameras.
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How do you consistently test for vibration dampening? I recently bought a compact Gitzo traveler CF as my old aluminum Manfrotto has a cracked hinge - it still works, though. I'd like to compare them, especially with my heavier cameras.
http://regex.info/blog/2007-09-17/575
See Jeffrey's blog from 2007, he has quite a nice write-up and his test target can be copied and placed on a laptop or monitor, the results are easy to read. Many tests could be devised using this target, such as mirror vibration, hand held image quality vs. tripod quality, it might be possible to determine optimum aperture on a lens...not sure of this last one. There's no substitute for testing one's own equipment.
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http://regex.info/blog/2007-09-17/575
See Jeffrey's blog from 2007, he has quite a nice write-up and his test target can be copied and placed on a laptop or monitor, the results are easy to read. Many tests could be devised using this target, such as mirror vibration, hand held image quality vs. tripod quality, it might be possible to determine optimum aperture on a lens...not sure of this last one. There's no substitute for testing one's own equipment.
Thanks, been reading Jeffrey's blog for a while, haven't seen this before. I'll use this some day!
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Hi
I have just completed a 14 day field trip to Iceland using Hasselblad HD3-39's and a variety of Hasselblad lenses. The tripod I took was a Gitzo 3530s (no centre column), Arca Cube head and when using the 210 or 300 mm lenses the addition of the RRS long lens support system. All images were taken with mirror locked up and I had no problems with shake or vibration irrespective of the shutter speed. In windy conditions however there were a few problems but I guess that most support systems would find it difficult to handle force 6 gales 4000 feet up on the top of a mountain :).
The key component for me when using long lenses is the RRS telephoto support brackets - they really do work very well. Have a look here:-
http://reallyrightstuff.com/rrs/Customkititems.asp?kc=CB%2DYS%2DPkg&eq=CB-YS-Pkg-001
David
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Hi
I have just completed a 14 day field trip to Iceland using Hasselblad HD3-39's and a variety of Hasselblad lenses. The tripod I took was a Gitzo 3530s (no centre column), Arca Cube head and when using the 210 or 300 mm lenses the addition of the RRS long lens support system. All images were taken with mirror locked up and I had no problems with shake or vibration irrespective of the shutter speed. In windy conditions however there were a few problems but I guess that most support systems would find it difficult to handle force 6 gales 4000 feet up on the top of a mountain :).
The key component for me when using long lenses is the RRS telephoto support brackets - they really do work very well. Have a look here:-
http://reallyrightstuff.com/rrs/Customkititems.asp?kc=CB%2DYS%2DPkg&eq=CB-YS-Pkg-001
David
David, I second your recomendation for the lens support package, in addition if you can get to San Luis Obispo and go to their headquarters and showroom they will individually work with you and suggest the best options for your camera/lens/tripod/tripod head setup. The owners son worked with me for 3 hours on several configurations .....he learned alot and I learned alot before we settled on the standard setup. They are very knowledgable about their products and offer a very high level of service.
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I have Gitzo tripods from series 1 up to series 5, that series 5 [GT5540] is my top favorite tripod i use for all my cameras from 35 DSLRs up to MFs, even i will use it for my large format that i ordered but i need to find a proper plate for it.
My next choice if i want something else will be Manfrotto, i have 190XPROB with 804RC2 which i use it sometimes with my MF cameras as they don't have plates yet for my RRS BH-55 head or my Q3T Markins head.
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I use Gitzo's biggest (tallest) Series 5 and the Arca Cube. This system is rock solid for the Alpa system. I rarely have 2 files out of register. However when I occasionally shoot with the Mamiya 645 I find in addition to locking the mirror I have to be really gentle with the cable release which on mine can take a bit of force to wake the camera and then get it to shoot. Mine is the pre-digital that was upgraded to a D body. In my experience nothing is smoother than a view camera shutter (copal) with a long cable release, and that any SLR (35mm or Medium format) will have camera shake issues even with the mirror locked.
Obviously a lousy tripod will make it harder, but even with the best gear you can still get shake on these cameras.
Just my experience, and another reason I like technical cameras.
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In my experience nothing is smoother than a view camera shutter (copal) with a long cable release, and that any SLR (35mm or Medium format) will have camera shake issues even with the mirror locked.
Limp wires should be less prone to cause shake than cables, and the ultimate might be wireless-fired SES (Schneider Electronic Shutters) electronic shutters.
¿anyone get shutter-shake with SES?
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In my experience nothing is smoother than a view camera shutter (copal) with a long cable release, and that any SLR (35mm or Medium format) will have camera shake issues even with the mirror locked.
I would agree with the first part of that statement, something special about the shutter's in a top end view/technical camera lens.
The second part may not be true anymore ... at least not all of the time. With current dSLR's like the 5D Mark2, it is possible to take a picture with absolutely zero mechanical or physical activity occurring. This means there is no moving parts to cause any vibration whatsoever.
In these cameras the first curtain is "electronic". This means if you set up the camera with a self timer, and use live view so the mirror is up and the sensor is uncovered, and your exposure time is less than the flash sync time (meaning the exposure will complete before the second curtain needs to start traveling), the camera will begin exposure without dropping the mirror back down. The entire process of the first current is electronically simulated by how the sensor data reads in, so no moving parts, until that 2nd mechanical curtain needs to move. No moving parts ... no vibration.
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In these cameras the first curtain is "electronic". This means if you set up the camera with a self timer, and use live view so the mirror is up and the sensor is uncovered, and your exposure time is less than the flash sync time (meaning the exposure will complete before the second curtain needs to start traveling), the camera will begin exposure without dropping the mirror back down. The entire process of the first current is electronically simulated by how the sensor data reads in, so no moving parts, until that 2nd mechanical curtain needs to move. No moving parts ... no vibration.
That never occurred to me - thanks Wayne! And timing couldn't be better: I was planning to do quite extensive tripod stability tests this weekend with different shooting methods.
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In these cameras the first curtain is "electronic". This means if you set up the camera with a self timer, and use live view so the mirror is up and the sensor is uncovered, and your exposure time is less than the flash sync time (meaning the exposure will complete before the second curtain needs to start traveling), the camera will begin exposure without dropping the mirror back down. The entire process of the first current is electronically simulated by how the sensor data reads in, so no moving parts, until that 2nd mechanical curtain needs to move. No moving parts ... no vibration.
That's one thing Canon did right. Unfortunately Nikon users shouldn't get excited when reading this, because that's not how LiveView works on current Nikon DSLR's (although one can hope Nikon changes it in future models). Nikon DSLR's actually drop the mirror and then fire the exposure as normal, which means you not only have the shutter moving but the mirror flopping around. So it's best to use live-view for your critical focusing and then switch over to M-UP mode to take the exposure.
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For this problem I drilled a hole in the center column of my tripod, attached a climbing carabiner using a butterfly screw and nut, and then will hang a sand bag (or my camera bag) from it. Really helps holding the tripod steady.
You may find a loop of bungee chord around the hook and your foot works better