Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: ErikKaffehr on July 17, 2010, 02:23:31 am
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Hi,
We now have an excellent review of the Leica S2 on the "diglloyd site", http://www.diglloyd.com/prem/prot/DAP/LeicaS2/index.html (http://www.diglloyd.com/prem/prot/DAP/LeicaS2/index.html) (an excellent article worth the few dollars digllyod charges for DAP subscription).
We also have some other reviews in progress, by Erwin Puts http://www.imx.nl/photo/leica/camera/page176/s2part4.html (http://www.imx.nl/photo/leica/camera/page176/s2part4.html) and also by Nick Rains.
Guy Mancuso and Jack Flescher have also a very good discussion of the S2 on GetDPI and we also had a short review by Mark Dubovoy here on LuLa.
It's pretty obvious that the Leica is "better" than the Nikon. It has a bigger sensor and more pixels. According to Erwin Puts the Leica lenses are probably the best lenses Leica ever made. So unless Leica really messed up the Leica must outperform the Nikon D3X regarding resolving power and sharpness.
Obviously, the two cameras attract different type of photographers. The Nikon is a very good general purpose camera while the Leica certainly is more in need of exacting work. According to Lloyd Chambers there are issues with AF on he Leica, not so much regarding accuracy as selective focusing capability, even if Lloyd also found that AF is not good enough to utilize the lenses at large apertures. This should come as surprise to no one, I presume.
I played a bit with the two raw images Lloyd made available for download. These two images are very attractive, because they have a very good subject for lens/sensor testing and also because they are shot with much care. I have looked at these images at different time after costuming different number of espressos and came up with different conclusions.
- No doubt, the S2 has more detail. This can be fully expected.
- Nikon needs more sharpening. With a bit agressive sharpening the images are a close match when scaled to the same size (in my case 50x75 cm at 360 PPI)
- Tonality and contrast matter a lot
- The sharpening on the Nikon enhances noise, it takes some care to reduce that
- There are a lot of aliasing artifacts (moirés, color artifacts and false detail) in the S2 images especially in stucco detail, but also in the mosaic
So basic image quality is better on the S2 than on the D3X. We have some usability issues which may or may not matter. Lloyd has issues with AF on the Leica. I, for instance, seldom shoot maximum aperture normally more like f/8, so my demands on AF would be less.
The question is in part, is the gain in image quality worth paying three times the price? We need to keep in mind that it's not just the camera but also the lenses. Another issue is that Leica also has competition from MFDBs which use similar technologies but larger sensors. Phase One teamed up with Schneider for lenses and Hasselblad designs their own even if production is at Fujica. The S2 is probably better built than the MF competition, both camera and lenses are environmentally sealed and AF is probably better than the competition, at least according to Mark Dubovoy.
The P65+ is significantly more expensive than the S2 but also has a bigger sensor and more resolution. MFDBs have the additional flexibility that they can be use view cameras and "Alpa" type bodies.
I hope that Leica has found a niche, developing a camera that the market demands. There are certainly some issues with the S2, but software will develop will improve with time. I also hope and presume that Leica will be forthcoming in upgrading old S2 cameras to latest technology.
Best regards
Erik Kaffehr
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A man discussing two cameras he never used or owned, based on an average of other reviews and discussions. This is simply BS and one of the reason forums like LL becomes less and less attractive for working pros. The ratio of noise/real info is increasing on this site and making it less attractive.
Forums like GetDPI, Fred Miranda, DP Review, etc have been gone for a long time.
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Hi,
Thank you for your thoughtful comment.
The reason I started this discussion is twofold. One is that we now have excellent comparison shots between the D3X and the S2 by both Lloyd Chambers and Nick Rains. The other issues is that Guy Mancuso did point out that the S2 is a "tweener". It's position in the market is between high end full frame digital and high end MFDBs. It is essentially an MF (or nearly MF) DSLR. The price/performance point of the S2 needs probably to be discussed.
Some of us are more interested in technical aspects of imaging like advantages and disadvantages of OLP filtering. With the images from Lloyd Chambers and Nick Rains we now for the first time have very good images to compare filtered and non filtered images. For that reason I felt it was a good idea to start a new thread which would more discuss practical aspects and usability.
Best regards
Erik Kaffehr
A man discussing two cameras he never used or owned, based on an average of other reviews and discussions. This is simply BS and one of the reason forums like LL becomes less and less attractive for working pros. The ratio of noise/real info is increasing on this site and making it less attractive.
Forums like GetDPI, Fred Miranda, DP Review, etc have been gone for a long time.
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Thank you for your thoughtful comment.
I didn’t expect you to understand.
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I didn’t expect you to understand.
if your comment is "too little original data" then you have a point. But the same is true of scientific conferences where people each add small quanta to an existing body of experimental data.
if you want to add some more data feel free to post some images and experiences.
Edmund
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Hi,
I'd consider the "raw" files I downloaded from Lloyd Chambers's site to be original data. My observations are of course not.
Anyway I started this topic more to discuss the Leica S2 position in the marketplace. It's a very bold step from Leica to go into low end medium format with an entirely new design.
The reason I say "low end medium format" is that they have chosen to use a relative small sensor. So Phase and Hassy will always be able to have "better" sensors than Leica as they use the same vendors of sensor hardware. It's quite obvious that silicon estate is one of the more important aspects of image quality, a bigger sensor stresses lenses less and collects more photons, simple as that. Better technology may compensate for a smaller sensor area, but Phase, Hassy and Leica have quite similar technology.
I guess that Leica tries to build an integrated platform that will utilize each component to the maximum, excellent lenses, low tolerances and so on.
I know that you have both Phase (P45 ?) and also D3X, so you have experience with both.
Best regards
Erik
if your comment is "too little original data" then you have a point. But the same is true of scientific conferences where people each add small quanta to an existing body of experimental data.
if you want to add some more data feel free to post some images and experiences.
Edmund
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if your comment is "too little original data" then you have a point.
YES
I am challenging a man (scientist and amateur photographer) who discuss and made a summery review of two cameras he did not even try.
Come on… It makes me yawn, it makes me tired, it makes me realize that there is too much BS to read to get real and first hand info.
Thank you Lloyd for doing a great job, I am happy to pay for your service.
But the same is true of scientific conferences where people each add small quanta to an existing body of experimental data.
One scientist to the other, while they kept on discussing DR and DxO
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Whilst I wouldn't condemn anyone for starting threads such as this one, neither would I pretend to be particulary enthused. The other one about the Zeiss engineer's findings was started with some vague interest and by the time I got to the second or third set of graphs I realised it was time for coffee which, unfortunately/fortunately, I had to get up of my ass and go make.
This really comes to another point: there are probably two main species of reader/contributor to this LuLa: the photographer and the technically enthusiastic searcher after absolutes. A Holy Grailist, if I may put it like that, which though it sounds vaguely French and political, isn't meant to be either.
I am perfectly happy to leave the maths and engineering and chemistry to its specialists; I am very interested in seeing photographs from good photographers; I am equally interested in reading of most of those people's exploits and opinions and though I may not agree with them all, they are interesting to me nonethless. It's one of the few areas, along with the other arts, in which I find my fellow man of any interest to me at all.
One of the problems with the internet is that it seamlessly spreads outwards from that bright screen into your life to fill any vacuum there, to the extent that it can actively prevent you from filling said vacuum with things relevant to your own, real life. In the end, one can find that one's days and nights are spent doing little else than surfing and filling the time with stuff that, some years ago, wouldn't have even been considered of any interest at all.
The internet is the true opiate of the masses, of which I confess to being both member and unfortunate addict.
Rob C
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And there is a point where first hand accounts are anecdotal. Meta-analysis, looking widely at a range of reviews, collating & presenting data from those reviews, can & often does provide a more rounded review of a topic than one person's thoughts. I'd also point out that it's a thread to which people can contribute, if they want to, and nobody is making people read it.
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I'm very very shocked by the interest found on those types of comparaisons, extremely limited, and I also hope that Lu-La will not fall into the same fashion.
I will point again that comparing the S2 to a D3x is not appropriate, just an exercice of simple curiosity.
If you are a serious S2 potential buyer, I mean that you are looking for informations that you might use practically and not being curious about cheaper good alternatives,
then you know that this camera has caracteristics (sensor, slow operation, approach etc...) that are in the domain of MFD. Don't let fool yourself by the dslr design because
this is an MF camera with all the hassles and the goodies of MFD. So, if you are looking seriously to this Leica, it is because you are aware and prepared to deal with MF camera,
therefore what you want to know is how it compares to a 40 MP Phase or Hassy equivalent, not even a P65.
If I was a potential Leica S2 buyer, I won't give a damn about that the Nikon is 3 or 10 times cheaper for a samish IQ. I'm just interested and have the money to do it and price is a secondary option.
Many of us can not access those gear, and I will never go to a store and ask for testing this Leica or any other MF gear if I'm not in a position to buy it or seriously considering it.
This is simply internet curiosity, and it sells well.
Also, all we hear is about IQ-money equation. Sadly...really sadly, very very little serious information about operation with studio lights, how it operates on the field in different professional situations etc...
This is all amateur kind of datas, made for curious amateurism and web smoking rooms. IQ is a very small part of the equation. Because today, most of the cameras produced have really good IQ.
What I really thank in GetDPI (and I'm not a forum member because I don't have the time to be in more than one forum), is that they talked about things like weight balance more than white balance...
if you follow me. This is a crucial information because it is something you will have to deal with it all the time and not possible to change. Those are relevant informations.
The very first time I handled a D3, I knew immediatly that it was not a camera for me. Just for the handling. I read everywhere that this is a magnificent tool, but because of the sensation in my hands,
I'm not going to buy it ever, even it is the best camera of the all universe. It just don't feel right in my hands. Others will find the opposite and thank god we have many options.
In the moment you are working seriously on your photography and concentrate in your art and craft, all those datas, comparaisons, DxO etc...are just falling appart. What you want is a tool that match your style,
your hand, your approach, your vision, your needs and your bank account. Oh, and your visual attraction too.
And what is important is how this tool is behaving in real conditions.
I'm sorry but if you have the time to spend in those scientific superstitions, supositions, and all the list of maybes and ifs, then you are not focussed in the production of your imagery itself.
Because in the case you where concentrating on your vision, you will find very little interest in those datas. It is a matter of where you put your attention and energy.
I also read that the Leica is better built because weather sealed. But some time ago, I opened a thread about the use of MF backs in harsh conditions and MF users where
talkinbg about their experiences. It appeared that those MF backs are extremelly capable of handling extremes conditions, and they don't claim weather seals.
But those where informations from many years users in desert, moutain, ice etc... not for a few days testing that maybe or if.
We should maybe reflexionate on the fact that most if not all serious artists and top photographers are rarelly participating to these kind of debates, neither need to know the curves etc...
1- they don't have the time to do it
2- they know that most of the gear are ok
3- they are focussed in their art
Maybe our interest for these testing is showing that we are not on track but distracted.
Best regards.
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Thanks Erik,
until such time as this forum is rich with people who have both an S2 and a D3X, and have made and posted careful comparisons, I am happy for posts like this.
As an aside, this is similar in spirit to the valuable meta-studies produced by the US National Academy of Sciences; collecting available studies and assessing their data and methodology to produce a synthesis that is potentially more reliable than any singe study used. For one thing, the prejudices of the authors of any one study can be corrected for.
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One scientist to the other, while they kept on discussing DR and DxO
I don't understand this voluntary 'contribution' to this thread, because there is no discussion (in the sense of differing opinions) amongst scientists about that. Besides, there are ISO standards that should have settled any misunderstanding there might be left. The discussions are more about/between those not understanding the basics, which is fine, they may learn something (I know I do).
Could you explain what you mean, or are you just venting some 'steam' because you don't like discussions between people with different backgrounds? I'm trying to understand what you are trying to bring to the table, as it might help moving the discussion to a higher level, that's all.
Cheers,
Bart
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I'd also point out that it's a thread to which people can contribute, if they want to, and nobody is making people read it.
Exactly.
If someone starts a thread that no-one is interested in then it gets no replies, fades towards the bottom of the page and is gone...
If a few folks are interested in discussing something photographic, no matter how obscure or uninteresting to others, then I think we should quietly move on to the next thread and leave them to enjoy their musings.
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I'm very very shocked by the interest found on those types of comparaisons, extremely limited, and I also hope that Lu-La will not fall into the same fashion.
I don't know what site you have been reading, but it sure isn't LL. There have been numerous comparison articles starting (at least) in 1999 (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/pixels_vs_film.shtml). Many of them have been so controversial they are still being referenced on other sites after years.
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Hi,
Thanks for a lot of comments.
May I suggest that we turn back to the topic and discuss the position of the S2 in the marketplace?
Best regards
Erik
I don't know what site you have been reading, but it sure isn't LL. There have been numerous comparison articles starting (at least) in 1999 (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/pixels_vs_film.shtml). Many of them have been so controversial they are still being referenced on other sites after years.
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May I suggest that we turn back to the topic and discuss the position of the S2 in the marketplace?
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you've summarized some points from some reviews with regard to IQ, which is fine.
so would you like to disucuss the "value" of the 2 cameras based on those few IQ observations?
I think that's beyond discussion...
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Sorry,
I should perhaps leave out my observations. My suggestion is not to compare the Leica S2 to D3X but it's place in the marketplace. On the other hand, it's quite obvious that the S2 needs to have a significant advantage over the D3X to have a place in the marketplace. On the other side it has competition from established systems like Hasselblad and Phase One. Both Hassy and Phase offer upgrade paths to bigger sensors with more resolution plus flexibility to move the back on a different equipment, like a view camera.
On the other hand, what reasons except image quality, in a wide sense, would you have to buy any camera for? I thought cameras were gear making for pictures?!
Best regards
Erik
?
you've summarized some points from some reviews with regard to IQ, which is fine.
so would you like to disucuss the "value" of the 2 cameras based on those few IQ observations?
I think that's beyond discussion...
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On the other hand, what reasons except image quality, in a wide sense, would you have to buy any camera for? I thought cameras were gear making for pictures?!
"usabilty" and "features" with regard to the kind of photography you are doing?
I mean if you sum up the features of a D3x (live view, multiple point af, high iso, high frame rate etc. etc.) it's a no brainer, no?
random thoughts...:
As to "IQ" I just don't see any advantage of the S2 over a P40+ or H40 (rather the contrary... except of maybe the S2 lens performance wide open at close and medium distances).
As to AF I think the recompose thing of Hasselblad is one of the most interessting recent "innovations" (in MFD and in general).
The S2 obviously has less shutter/mirror bounce so it might be a bit better for hand held shooting than other MFD cameras (of course not better than a D3x). Tethered shooting seems to be very slow with the S2. DBs can be mounted on tech cameras. Actually with an Arca Swiss M-Line 2 or so you can also mount the D3x on such a camera (however I don't know about the flexibilty of such a kit... i.e. real usable movements with a given lens). There are also T/S lenses for the Nikon (though in this regard the Canon T/S lenses are obviously more interessting). The S2 lacks a software that deals with certain artifacts (CAs, purple fringing, moiré).
And so on...
I don't know how all these things translate into a "price".
I think of the S2 as a very expensive, oversized but poor equipped high rez DSLR ... but that's just my personal view (and only based on second hand information).
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"usabilty" and "features" with regard to the kind of photography you are doing?
I mean if you sum up the features of a D3x (live view, multiple point af, high iso, high frame rate etc. etc.) it's a no brainer, no?
I don't use any of these features so their advantages are meaningless to me. No brainer.
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Hi,
Yes, those are good points.
On the other hand, different ways of shooting make different requirements. I mostly shooting landscapes , so I almost always shoot single shot and mostly use center point AF with focus and recompose. I guess that modern DSLRs are pretty good "jacks of every trade". If you are willing to spend like 300 kUSD on a body and couple of lenses I guess you are going for the ultimate image quality and are willing to accept some some inconveniences.
The Leica M8/M9 is an interesting parallel. Both cameras use the same technology, the M8 had a lot of issues. The M9 has a decent IR filter and a full size sensor and now it is quite popular. That said, the M9 has still quite a few issues much related to focusing. The reason the Leica is popular is probably mostly that it offers high performance in a small package. That said, the red dot certainly helps...
Best regards
Erik Kaffehr
"usabilty" and "features" with regard to the kind of photography you are doing?
I mean if you sum up the features of a D3x (live view, multiple point af, high iso, high frame rate etc. etc.) it's a no brainer, no?
random thoughts...:
As to "IQ" I just don't see any advantage of the S2 over a P40+ or H40 (rather the contrary... except of maybe the S2 lens performance wide open at close and medium distances).
As to AF I think the recompose thing of Hasselblad is one of the most interessting recent "innovations" (in MFD and in general).
The S2 obviously has less shutter/mirror bounce so it might be a bit better for hand held shooting than other MFD cameras (of course not better than a D3x). Tethered shooting seems to be very slow with the S2. DBs can be mounted on tech cameras. Actually with an Arca Swiss M-Line 2 or so you can also mount the D3x on such a camera (however I don't know about the flexibilty of such a kit... i.e. real usable movements with a given lens). There are also T/S lenses for the Nikon (though in this regard the Canon T/S lenses are obviously more interessting). The S2 lacks a software that deals with certain artifacts (CAs, purple fringing, moiré).
And so on...
I don't know how all these things translate into a "price".
I think of the S2 as a very expensive, oversized but poor equipped high rez DSLR ... but that's just my personal view (and only based on second hand information).
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Hi,
Thanks for a lot of comments.
May I suggest that we turn back to the topic and discuss the position of the S2 in the marketplace?
Best regards
Erik
Great suggestion Erik.
Interesting, in the French MF-LF circles (serious and experienced users), they consider this S2 as "one of the best camera for the photo-reporter".
I was first a bit surprised and thought that statement a little wired to be honest. But...more I think about it more I find it ok.
The S2 is very difficult to positionned, even if their system would be matured.
Before, there was a worldwide petition that I signed at that time to influenced Leica to go for a digital R solution. Of course, this was a message
in a bottle that has never been considered by the Leica's executives, as expected.
I think they did a wrong choice, and even insisting in this path, why couldn't they provide with this dslr superb design, a back exactly like with the Sinar is a mystery.
Now, if you consider this camera as a "gift" for a high-end photo-reporter carrier, it all makes sense.
IMO.
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I mostly shooting landscapes (...)
If you are willing to spend like 300 kUSD on a body and couple of lenses I guess you are going for the ultimate image quality and are willing to accept some some inconveniences.
if you are after ultimate IQ in landscape photography I think a lightweight, small tech camera with Rodenstock and/or Schneider lenses and a (used or new) P45+ (or so) is not only better value but also better IQ.
of course a P65+ or H60 or the 56MP Leaf would be even better...
IMO...
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I don't use any of these features so their advantages are meaningless to me.
neither do I need those features. In fact my kit is even much poorer equipped (than the S2 or current MFD cameras)...
But others may find these features much more important than a slight edge in IQ/resolution ...
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Hi,
This is a good example of the point I try to make. D3X is jack of all trades. Doing a good job for all...
When I went into medium format I wanted a Horseman VH-R 2x3" technical camera but I realized it was to inconvenient for my family. So I went for Pentax 67. Life is a compromise.
Best regards
Erik
if you are after ultimate IQ in landscape photography I think a lightweight, small tech camera with Rodenstock and/or Schneider lenses and a (used or new) P45+ (or so) is not only better value but also better IQ.
of course a P65+ or H60 or the 56MP Leaf would be even better...
IMO...
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I think Erik what your trying to get to here on this thread is the bottom line question" Is it worth it"
Now that can mean many things to many different types of folks. But we all come down to reality at some point with check book in hand ready to buy something. What that something is a big question mark. If I can speak for folks that do these reviews is we all want to see how it is and how it compares to other gear in it's category. Really pretty easy in a way to compare a Hassy and a Phase when you go to buy, they are essential the same thing in class. One maybe better at this or that and the other has features, software that you like better. So you do your Pro's and Con's data sheet and make the best decision for yourself. The S2 being a tweener it jumps category's of type and makes that decision harder. As you say the D3X is three times less money but not three times less Image Quality and a Phase P40+ and Hassy HD40 is basically a wash when it comes to IQ so here it will come down to is it 12k( estimate) more worth the ergo's and features along with it's style.
Obviously we could go on for days running these comparisons between the S2 and what is already on the market. Let's face it 28K for body and lens is a lot of money for the average income shooter. Than you factor in a D3x at 8k and a P40+/H40 around 19k than you start really scratching your head wondering what makes the most sense for you needs and such. This is not easy and reviews run the gamut of what we focus on in those reviews. My suggestion has always been look at the reviews , look at the charts and the scientific data and than blend it.
Not sure any reviewer including myself wants folks to just take our word for it and go buy. I believe there is plenty of info out there to sit and sort out your needs versus your budget. Myself on a personal level would not mind having a S2 as it fits my style but it does not fit my budget versus the IQ from it and it has some fundamental issues that bug me. But that's me
I'm a firm believer in dedicated software
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The question is in part, is the gain in image quality worth paying three times the price?
I guess that the question should be considered in the context of:
- A full system including lenses and the opportunity cost resulting from missed opportunities due to all the things that might not be available in one system against the other,
- The coming 5 years... knowing that one system might evolve faster than the other.
Have fun with the discussion.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I guess that the question should be considered in the context of:
- A full system including lenses and the opportunity cost resulting from missed opportunities due to all the things that might not be available in one system against the other,
- The coming 5 years... knowing that one system might evolve faster than the other.
Have fun with the discussion.
Cheers,
Bernard
The D3x is now obsolete technology, it's pretty clear that Sony will have the A900 successor at Photokina, and some time later Nikon will get the new sensor to compete with the 1DsIV. If the S2 has issues now competing with the D3x, then it will have trouble when matched against the much cheaper Sony and its built-in stabiliser and Zeiss lenses.
What is a pity, in a way, is that Leica is killing its superb lens design team by making them do designs that can not be reused as third party lenses; in the mean time, Zeiss is recycling 20 year old Contax lens designs into revenue.
Edmund
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Hi,
I'm not sure about D3X being obsolete. In my view and DxO's the D3X leads DSLR technology right now and I would not expect Sony or Canon to leapfrog. I'm having two of Sony's Zeiss labeled lenses and I think they are OK, but not necessarily best of breed. The Leica S2 will also develop, meantime.
It is quite possible that CCD's are moribund, we don't know! May have been smarter for Leica to team up with a CMOS maker like Sony or Panasonic.
Best regards
Erik
The D3x is now obsolete technology, it's pretty clear that Sony will have the A900 successor at Photokina, and some time later Nikon will get the new sensor to compete with the 1DsIV. If the S2 has issues now competing with the D3x, then it will have trouble when matched against the much cheaper Sony and its built-in stabiliser and Zeiss lenses.
What is a pity, in a way, is that Leica is killing its superb lens design team by making them do designs that can not be reused as third party lenses; in the mean time, Zeiss is recycling 20 year old Contax lens designs into revenue.
Edmund
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Guy,
I'm with you to about 95%, the remaining 5% we may discuss!
Best regards
Erik
I think Erik what your trying to get to here on this thread is the bottom line question" Is it worth it"
Now that can mean many things to many different types of folks. But we all come down to reality at some point with check book in hand ready to buy something. What that something is a big question mark. If I can speak for folks that do these reviews is we all want to see how it is and how it compares to other gear in it's category. Really pretty easy in a way to compare a Hassy and a Phase when you go to buy, they are essential the same thing in class. One maybe better at this or that and the other has features, software that you like better. So you do your Pro's and Con's data sheet and make the best decision for yourself. The S2 being a tweener it jumps category's of type and makes that decision harder. As you say the D3X is three times less money but not three times less Image Quality and a Phase P40+ and Hassy HD40 is basically a wash when it comes to IQ so here it will come down to is it 12k( estimate) more worth the ergo's and features along with it's style.
Obviously we could go on for days running these comparisons between the S2 and what is already on the market. Let's face it 28K for body and lens is a lot of money for the average income shooter. Than you factor in a D3x at 8k and a P40+/H40 around 19k than you start really scratching your head wondering what makes the most sense for you needs and such. This is not easy and reviews run the gamut of what we focus on in those reviews. My suggestion has always been look at the reviews , look at the charts and the scientific data and than blend it.
Not sure any reviewer including myself wants folks to just take our word for it and go buy. I believe there is plenty of info out there to sit and sort out your needs versus your budget. Myself on a personal level would not mind having a S2 as it fits my style but it does not fit my budget versus the IQ from it and it has some fundamental issues that bug me. But that's me
I'm a firm believer in dedicated software
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The D3x is now obsolete technology, it's pretty clear that Sony will have the A900 successor at Photokina, and some time later Nikon will get the new sensor to compete with the 1DsIV. If the S2 has issues now competing with the D3x, then it will have trouble when matched against the much cheaper Sony and its built-in stabiliser and Zeiss lenses.
What is a pity, in a way, is that Leica is killing its superb lens design team by making them do designs that can not be reused as third party lenses; in the mean time, Zeiss is recycling 20 year old Contax lens designs into revenue.
Edmund
Exactly.
Far from declining, Zeiss is having a pretty good digital age and actually is going to be a relaible player. Leica has made really unconsistent choices, some good ones too, some much more risky and failures. They really have to avoid mistakes and go for sailable products from now.
But we should keep in mind that those very high-end gear are targetting basically 2 types of photographers, both wealphy.
-the very experienced amateur or pro, wealphy enough
-the pro as part of the natural working investment
To me, this leica is more willing to attract the first customer's type. This gear is not suitable for 90% of us.
For the 90% we have many many choices, and soon the Pentax MF.
Potential S2 buyer won't care at all about the D3 or the D4,5,6...it seems that many are projecting their own experience, taste or situation there,
putting into account the price, the tech evolution etc... Those are your projections. An S2 buyer has other motivations than price and speed, even if it is just having a great round red logo
on a supreme minimalist design. If you can afford it, that's fine.
You want to be "reasonable". But this is not a reasonable camera. It is something else.
Would I buy it? without doubt I would. But I won't because I can't.
IMO.
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Huy,
I'm with you to about 95%, the remaining 5% we may discuss!
Best regards
Erik
95 percent is damn good. LOL
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Great suggestion Erik.
Interesting, in the French MF-LF circles (serious and experienced users), they consider this S2 as "one of the best camera for the photo-reporter".
I was first a bit surprised and thought that statement a little wired to be honest. But...more I think about it more I find it ok.
The S2 is very difficult to positionned, even if their system would be matured.
Before, there was a worldwide petition that I signed at that time to influenced Leica to go for a digital R solution. Of course, this was a message
in a bottle that has never been considered by the Leica's executives, as expected.
I think they did a wrong choice, and even insisting in this path, why couldn't they provide with this dslr superb design, a back exactly like with the Sinar is a mystery.
Now, if you consider this camera as a "gift" for a high-end photo-reporter carrier, it all makes sense.
IMO.
For me that's the great question. The s2 is build like a tank, resistant to weather and have beautiful lens line. It can use central or leaf shutters.
The H4D40 has: Better price, similar resolution, similar lens line, GPS, TS, multiple viewfinders, functional Tethering, extension tubes, focusing screens, support form V lenses, maturity, shades etc etc ....
I don't know how the Phase one will do in a similar system side by side, but they have the P65+ the best image quality you can get according to DxO test and anecdotical reviews, capture one, and talking tanks you can step on a P45+ .
So I am not sure for whom is the S2. Maybe that is the key point: It is due to create a new market segment.
I guess I don't understand what a photo reporter is in this case. Reporting as I usually understand it (I am not a native english speaker) will need fast operation, some times high iso, Tele lenses etc. High resolution is not crucial, even more: some times it can get in your way (sending pictures wireless /satellite to the the office).
Street reporting (documenting life so to speak) will call for a less intrusive system. Maybe a big sensor (like nikon dx) compact camera. But as I say before: I'm not sure what they mean by reporter.
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For me that's the great question. The s2 is build like a tank, resistant to weather and have beautiful lens line. It can use central or leaf shutters.
The H4D40 has: Better price, similar resolution, similar lens line, GPS, TS, multiple viewfinders, functional Tethering, extension tubes, focusing screens, support form V lenses, maturity, shades etc etc ....
I don't know how the Phase one will do in a similar system side by side, but they have the P65+ the best image quality you can get according to DxO test and anecdotical reviews, capture one, and talking tanks you can step on a P45+ .
So I am not sure for whom is the S2. Maybe that is the key point: It is due to create a new market segment.
I guess I don't understand what a photo reporter is in this case. Reporting as I usually understand it (I am not a native english speaker) will need fast operation, some times high iso, Tele lenses etc. High resolution is not crucial, even more: some times it can get in your way (sending pictures wireless /satellite to the the office).
Street reporting (documenting life so to speak) will call for a less intrusive system. Maybe a big sensor (like nikon dx) compact camera. But as I say before: I'm not sure what they mean by reporter.
Surprising init?
According to the french lectures and MF gurus I talked to in the "Beaumarchais alley" (a place in Paris where all the MF-LF dealers are located), what they understand by photo-reporter and S2 covers from personalities portraits (politicians etc...) to remote locations, wars and social reportage. The M9 would be the backup of the S2.
This is aimed to a wealphy reporter in search of ultimate IQ in a simple and extremely relaible dslr design. Fast enough to cover most of the situations. The D3 being basically a sport camera and the x version a studio camera. Do you need 8 frames/second to do social reportage or landscape? I don't personally.
Also, all the gurus (even tech gurus) that I've speak with and tryied the camera and work daily with Phase or Hassy or Leaf, are saying that it is a very good gear indeed. As Guy Mancuso pointed, not without issues but but but but and again, a dedicated Leica software would be a good idea instead of DNG (I'm currently learning the importance of that with C1 more and more), no bloody AA really makes difference but it also depends on your tastes and the weight balance between gear and lenses. The S2 apparently is light with heavy lenses.
That for me would be the real important data with this camera.(putting the price appart).
Cheers.
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The only thing I can take from all these Leica S2 discussions is that the Nikon D3X is a bloody bargain
Nikon couldn't pay fo this kind of marketing.
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The only thing I can take from all these Leica S2 discussions is that the Nikon D3X is a bloody bargain
Nikon couldn't pay fo this kind of marketing.
I almost choke laughing
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Hi,
DNG is just a format, no software. I honestly doubt if rolling your own in software is such a good idea. Of course, Guy Mancuso may be right that Phase One C1 is much better for Phase One cameras than ACR, but C1 (Capture One) has been around a few years. Leica could make it's own software, what it would be like 0.8 version with few features and many bugs.
It would be better to team up with a maker of decent software and help them tune their software for the Leica. The natural choice would of course be C1 but I guess that won't happen.
Best regards
Erik
Surprising init?
According to the french lectures and MF gurus I talked to in the "Beaumarchais alley" (a place in Paris where all the MF-LF dealers are located), what they understand by photo-reporter and S2 covers from personalities portraits (politicians etc...) to remote locations, wars and social reportage. The M9 would be the backup of the S2.
This is aimed to a wealphy reporter in search of ultimate IQ in a simple and extremely relaible dslr design. Fast enough to cover most of the situations. The D3 being basically a sport camera and the x version a studio camera. Do you need 8 frames/second to do social reportage or landscape? I don't personally.
Also, all the gurus (even tech gurus) that I've speak with and tryied the camera and work daily with Phase or Hassy or Leaf, are saying that it is a very good gear indeed. As Guy Mancuso pointed, not without issues but but but but and again, a dedicated Leica software would be a good idea instead of DNG (I'm currently learning the importance of that with C1 more and more), no bloody AA really makes difference but it also depends on your tastes and the weight balance between gear and lenses. The S2 apparently is light with heavy lenses.
That for me would be the real important data with this camera.(putting the price appart).
Cheers.
-
Obviously, the two cameras attract different type of photographers.
Yes they do and this attraction does not need to be based on scientific fact. I shoot with a Canon 1D body and do so because I like everything about the camera and workflow. I want the Leica S2 but don't have one for the same reason I don't have a Lamborghini, I just can't fit it into my current work/life style right now. I don't need the sports car or the Leica, 'cause none of my customers are demanding this of me. The Leica is not an economical purchase for many reasons, this is obvious to all of us here, but there are those who have a five car garage that could really use another camera. The sad thing to me is that the Leica S2 marketing campaign made me take notice of it, It does not belong in my world. I don't know of any P65+ owners giving it any serious look either.
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I love Leica glass as much as the next obsessive gearhead (God knows my wallet has suffered accordingly over the years), but I wonder how the discussion around the S2 would change if it weren't a Leica product.
What if say, Pentax, had, instead of the 645D, released the S2 as it's MF entry vehicle? Same glass designs, same construction, same everything, just no red dot or Leica mystique... For some reason images of a (verbal) "WTF were they thinking..?" crucifixion keep coming to mind ;>
As much as I wish them well and could debate the pros & cons and value propositions all day, the bottom line is I think the system was: a great concept that was pegged at 'old MF market' prices and released about 3-4 years too late. Regardless of why it was dropped on us when it was, it was released when not only the global economy but the economies of the MF hardware market were changing dramatically as the once-rarefied sector suddenly adopted a DSLResque depreciation and pricing curve as, in part, existing players started targeting upper-end SLR users.
My bet (sadly) is that I give it a 70/30 chance of becoming 'DMR, The Sequel'. System (lenses, grip, tilt/shift, etc) roll-out is already far, far too slow for a new product looking to gain traction. Once the 'pregnant snake' effect of affluent early-adopter Leica fan sales is complete, I think you'll see (are seeing??) volumes slow dramatically and pace of release of new lens/premium accessories follow accordingly (R&D $$ follow Sales $$) and the system eventually be allowed to become a tech showcase with collector mystique.
Had they stuck to their core expertise (glass) and co-developed the system with Phase (priced accordingly), offered premium glass for the Phase system and 'pulled a Zeiss (or Cosina Voigtlander)' (as mentioned earlier) recycling the sunk-costs of their R glass into LE, LF & LS mount lenses (your D3X/A900/1Ds3 would be your 'R10'), the prospects for Leica in SLR/MF land would be looking far, far different.
I think a right-priced 3_(or lower) MP, co-branded 'P2' in standard Mamiya mount and offering Leica-designed premium glass as an option would be a perfect adjunct system for a lot of Phase shooters. I also think they'd be selling as many CaNikOny lenses as they could make (talk about p****ng-away cash flow)...
Oh well...
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Either of the cameras compared here - and most of those that aren't - are capable of making damn fine images. I have a dream where all of this angst is channelled into making images rather than talking about cameras.
Dream on...
That was exactly the content of my first post here. The difference Keith is that you expained it in 2 lines, and it took me 29 lines to say exactly the same at the end.
I think I might have something to learn from you.
Cheers.
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- There are a lot of aliasing artifacts (moirés, color artifacts and false detail) in the S2 images especially in stucco detail, but also in the mosaic
Hi Erik, I would be interested in checking these artifacts. Which are the RAW file you found moiré artifacts? and which RAW developer did you use to develop the RAW files?
Regards
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The D3x is now obsolete technology, it's pretty clear that Sony will have the A900 successor at Photokina, and some time later Nikon will get the new sensor to compete with the 1DsIV. If the S2 has issues now competing with the D3x, then it will have trouble when matched against the much cheaper Sony and its built-in stabiliser and Zeiss lenses.
Not to mention the Pentax 645D that is available today (I could actually have one in my hands in less than 30 mins here in Tokyo) and is at least equal to the S2 specwise at basically the same price as the D3x.
I believe that the successor of the 645D is already being worked on and my guess is that it is going to become available faster than the S3. I believe that Kodak will spend more time with Pentax than with Leica considering that Pentax will probably sell them 5 times more sensors...
Cheers,
Bernard
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Mamiya just anounced new prices for their digital MF cameras. As low as $9995.
http://www.mamiya.com/en/AboutMamiya/News/...s-Releases.aspx (http://www.mamiya.com/en/AboutMamiya/News/Press-Releases.aspx)
Eduardo
Not to mention the Pentax 645D that is available today (I could actually have one in my hands in less than 30 mins here in Tokyo) and is at least equal to the S2 specwise at basically the same price as the D3x.
I believe that the successor of the 645D is already being worked on and my guess is that it is going to become available faster than the S3. I believe that Kodak will spend more time with Pentax than with Leica considering that Pentax will probably sell them 5 times more sensors...
Cheers,
Bernard
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The only thing I can take from all these Leica S2 discussions is that the Nikon D3X is a bloody bargain
Nikon couldn't pay fo this kind of marketing.
Not only that, it makes the A850 seem like the deal of the century.
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Either of the cameras compared here - and most of those that aren't - are capable of making damn fine images.
We all know that, I hope. And I know the camera is just a part of the equation. But we can't change cameras every photo shoot as models, location, lighting etc... so we have to talk, discuss and choose carefully. I know my limitations ands skills as a photographer and I really wouldn't like to have piece of equipment in front of my eye slowing me down or making me think a lot on equipment instead of the image I'm trying to produce... so I think in gear here in the "Equipment & Techniques" forum so I don't have to think anymore on the field ... ( I have other sources for the creative process )
If I had the money I would choose the S2 over the D3x, if I don't have "all" the money I choose the Pentax 645D!!! To me is even more interesting the Pentax 645D vs D3x... it's an easier choice (for my need's) I would choose the pentax 645D any day.
Not only that, it makes the A850 seem like the deal of the century.
I now!! You could have 1 Pentax 645D, 1 Pentax 645D as backup and a Sony a850 + lenses for all the fast, low light work, for less than a Leica S2 body!
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Mamiya just anounced new prices for their digital MF cameras. As low as $9995.
http://www.mamiya.com/en/AboutMamiya/News/...s-Releases.aspx (http://www.mamiya.com/en/AboutMamiya/News/Press-Releases.aspx)
Eduardo
looks that they are using the Dalsa sensors, not Kodak's.
The system looks very complete. If all that AF lenses are currently shipping , I will say as complete as the Hasselblad system.
The prices look good too.
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Guillermo,
Lloyd Chambers has two raw files for download on his DAP site. DAP is a pay site but the content is very good. Lloyd terms for download are a bit restrictive.
I'm going a write a small article on what I found this week.
Best regards
Erik
Hi Erik, I would be interested in checking these artifacts. Which are the RAW file you found moiré artifacts? and which RAW developer did you use to develop the RAW files?
Regards
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Hi,
The Pentax has a different price tag. Pentax would probably not try to sell an MF DSLR for 25 kUSD and would they do that they would fail. It has taken Pentax some time to come out with the 645D, we don't know why the wait was so long. What Leica has going for the S2 is that it is designed for digital from the ground up and that Leica designed lenses that seem to be truly excellent for it. My guess that we need to look at the Pentax on it's own merits.
There is probably a lot of lenses around waiting for a digital Pentax 645 body, so I guess that there will be a good initial market for the Pentax 645D. Will it redefine the MF digital marketplace? Who knows, the Mamiya ZD did not.
Regarding your comment on S2 having a 70/30 chance of becoming 'DMR, The sequel' you are of course right, the question is really the percentage. I hope it's less that 70% and I presume that Leica did a good market research before betting the company on the S2.
Best regards
Erik
I love Leica glass as much as the next obsessive gearhead (God knows my wallet has suffered accordingly over the years), but I wonder how the discussion around the S2 would change if it weren't a Leica product.
What if say, Pentax, had, instead of the 645D, released the S2 as it's MF entry vehicle? Same glass designs, same construction, same everything, just no red dot or Leica mystique... For some reason images of a (verbal) "WTF were they thinking..?" crucifixion keep coming to mind ;>
As much as I wish them well and could debate the pros & cons and value propositions all day, the bottom line is I think the system was: a great concept that was pegged at 'old MF market' prices and released about 3-4 years too late. Regardless of why it was dropped on us when it was, it was released when not only the global economy but the economies of the MF hardware market were changing dramatically as the once-rarefied sector suddenly adopted a DSLResque depreciation and pricing curve as, in part, existing players started targeting upper-end SLR users.
My bet (sadly) is that I give it a 70/30 chance of becoming 'DMR, The Sequel'. System (lenses, grip, tilt/shift, etc) roll-out is already far, far too slow for a new product looking to gain traction. Once the 'pregnant snake' effect of affluent early-adopter Leica fan sales is complete, I think you'll see (are seeing??) volumes slow dramatically and pace of release of new lens/premium accessories follow accordingly (R&D $$ follow Sales $$) and the system eventually be allowed to become a tech showcase with collector mystique.
Had they stuck to their core expertise (glass) and co-developed the system with Phase (priced accordingly), offered premium glass for the Phase system and 'pulled a Zeiss (or Cosina Voigtlander)' (as mentioned earlier) recycling the sunk-costs of their R glass into LE, LF & LS mount lenses (your D3X/A900/1Ds3 would be your 'R10'), the prospects for Leica in SLR/MF land would be looking far, far different.
I think a right-priced 3_(or lower) MP, co-branded 'P2' in standard Mamiya mount and offering Leica-designed premium glass as an option would be a perfect adjunct system for a lot of Phase shooters. I also think they'd be selling as many CaNikOny lenses as they could make (talk about p****ng-away cash flow)...
Oh well...
-
Hi Erik,
I agree Pentax plays in a different snack bracket, but I just picked their name as an example of a known quality manufacturer to pose the question of how the S2 would be received if it wasn't a Leica...
On the odds. I don't know if they've bet the firm on it, but they've bet what's left of their reputation in non-RF land on it. After the DMR's demise and the 'R10' debacle, if the S2 is allowed to whither on the vine, any further attempts by them to market a non-RF will be all but ignored outside the faithful - and even then all but the most die-hard.
Part of the issue is that the repeated 'an R10 is coming...trust us' followed by the sudden disposal of their remaining R inventory to dealers and the 'oops, no R10, sell your glass' created a lot of ill-will and a "I'll believe it when I see it, not when Solms promises it" mindset among many Leica users and observers - making it tougher to ask a subset of same to swallow a $30K+ bill today on promises of a commitment to the system and that needed lenses, etc., will be released in a timely manner (or at all).
Nice concept, but between having the worst possible timing, by myopically choosing to develop it solely in-house (which reflects the price) and by risking entry w/o a custom processing solution, I think they self-lobotomized the product's odds of success. To add insult to injury, the program's marketing strategy is all but non-existent and Solm's release rate for fleshing-out the system reflects either a deadly mis-conceptualization of the rate of change (in terms of technology and value propositions) in the market or (my guess) a lack of critical R&D resources at the program's disposal. Given that the S2's premium vs Hassy/Phase is nebulous at best as IQ differences between like-equipped systems are splitting the finest hairs, and a price drop is never going to happen, Solms needs to get on the stick and fast if they want this thing to gain any serious buyer mindshare.
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Guillermo,
Lloyd Chambers has two raw files for download on his DAP site. DAP is a pay site but the content is very good. Lloyd terms for download are a bit restrictive.
I'm going a write a small article on what I found this week.
Update: I used LR 3
Best regards
Erik
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Mamiya just anounced new prices for their digital MF cameras. As low as $9995.
http://www.mamiya.com/en/AboutMamiya/News/...s-Releases.aspx (http://www.mamiya.com/en/AboutMamiya/News/Press-Releases.aspx)
Eduardo
That is 10.000 US$ for a 3 years old 22 megapixel sensor, right?
Besides, you've got to love the wording "was designed to be the most durable MF camera on the market"... when you know that Pentax is confident enough in the waterproofing of the 645D to pour a glass of water on it... and garantees 500+ images battery life at -10C...
What else should be believed in this press release?
Cheers,
Bernard
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Hi,
The Pentax has a different price tag. Pentax would probably not try to sell an MF DSLR for 25 kUSD and would they do that they would fail. It has taken Pentax some time to come out with the 645D, we don't know why the wait was so long.
Actually we do know:
- the project was shelved for one+ year after the take over of Pentax by Hoya,
- the rest is the time it took them to come up with a camera that no Japanese Velvia Pentax 645 user would find anything to object against (be it in terms of colors, digital artifacts, cold weather battery life, interface, mechanical resistance to water,...).
The only think the 645D has in common with its ancesters is the lens mount, 100% of the rest is new and digital specific.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Bernard,
What about the lenses? You had a good article on the Pentax a while ago on LuLa, any news since that?
Best regards
Erik
Actually we do know:
- the project was shelved for one+ year after the take over of Pentax by Hoya,
- the rest is the time it took them to come up with a camera that no Japanese Velvia Pentax 645 user would find anything to object against (be it in terms of colors, digital artifacts, cold weather battery life, interface, mechanical resistance to water,...).
The only think the 645D has in common with its ancesters is the lens mount, 100% of the rest is new and digital specific.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Amen.
I'm very very shocked by the interest found on those types of comparaisons, extremely limited, and I also hope that Lu-La will not fall into the same fashion.
I will point again that comparing the S2 to a D3x is not appropriate, just an exercice of simple curiosity.
If you are a serious S2 potential buyer, I mean that you are looking for informations that you might use practically and not being curious about cheaper good alternatives,
then you know that this camera has caracteristics (sensor, slow operation, approach etc...) that are in the domain of MFD. Don't let fool yourself by the dslr design because
this is an MF camera with all the hassles and the goodies of MFD. So, if you are looking seriously to this Leica, it is because you are aware and prepared to deal with MF camera,
therefore what you want to know is how it compares to a 40 MP Phase or Hassy equivalent, not even a P65.
If I was a potential Leica S2 buyer, I won't give a damn about that the Nikon is 3 or 10 times cheaper for a samish IQ. I'm just interested and have the money to do it and price is a secondary option.
Many of us can not access those gear, and I will never go to a store and ask for testing this Leica or any other MF gear if I'm not in a position to buy it or seriously considering it.
This is simply internet curiosity, and it sells well.
Also, all we hear is about IQ-money equation. Sadly...really sadly, very very little serious information about operation with studio lights, how it operates on the field in different professional situations etc...
This is all amateur kind of datas, made for curious amateurism and web smoking rooms. IQ is a very small part of the equation. Because today, most of the cameras produced have really good IQ.
What I really thank in GetDPI (and I'm not a forum member because I don't have the time to be in more than one forum), is that they talked about things like weight balance more than white balance...
if you follow me. This is a crucial information because it is something you will have to deal with it all the time and not possible to change. Those are relevant informations.
The very first time I handled a D3, I knew immediatly that it was not a camera for me. Just for the handling. I read everywhere that this is a magnificent tool, but because of the sensation in my hands,
I'm not going to buy it ever, even it is the best camera of the all universe. It just don't feel right in my hands. Others will find the opposite and thank god we have many options.
In the moment you are working seriously on your photography and concentrate in your art and craft, all those datas, comparaisons, DxO etc...are just falling appart. What you want is a tool that match your style,
your hand, your approach, your vision, your needs and your bank account. Oh, and your visual attraction too.
And what is important is how this tool is behaving in real conditions.
I'm sorry but if you have the time to spend in those scientific superstitions, supositions, and all the list of maybes and ifs, then you are not focussed in the production of your imagery itself.
Because in the case you where concentrating on your vision, you will find very little interest in those datas. It is a matter of where you put your attention and energy.
I also read that the Leica is better built because weather sealed. But some time ago, I opened a thread about the use of MF backs in harsh conditions and MF users where
talkinbg about their experiences. It appeared that those MF backs are extremelly capable of handling extremes conditions, and they don't claim weather seals.
But those where informations from many years users in desert, moutain, ice etc... not for a few days testing that maybe or if.
We should maybe reflexionate on the fact that most if not all serious artists and top photographers are rarelly participating to these kind of debates, neither need to know the curves etc...
1- they don't have the time to do it
2- they know that most of the gear are ok
3- they are focussed in their art
Maybe our interest for these testing is showing that we are not on track but distracted.
Best regards.
-
Besides, you've got to love the wording "was designed to be the most durable MF camera on the market"... when you know that Pentax is confident enough in the waterproofing of the 645D to pour a glass of water on it... and garantees 500+ images battery life at -10C...
Durable <> Weather Proofing <> Battery Life
The only way to prove durability is to have hundreds of units in real world (mixed condition) usage for a year or two and see how many break down or require repair/service.
The Pentax is clearly weather proofed pretty darn well (which is a great asset to photographer who wish to shoot in the rain or near water spray) and has good battery life (again a good asset) but durability will not be clear either way for some time.
Or perhaps I'm confusing "durability" with "longevity". Meh - it's all "marketing speak" anyway :-). All that really matters is "will it work when I need it to" and then, since everything can break: "what are my options if it doesn't. One of the advantages of a all-in-one system like the 645D is the weather sealing is better. One of the disadvantages is that the body and sensor are all in one unit; with most other MFDB systems the digital back is very very reliable so a backup for most purposes only requires a backup body. In the Phase One body system this means you can have a $600 Mamiya AFD1 body as your backup (depending on your needs).
Doug Peterson ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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-
I also read that the Leica is better built because weather sealed. But some time ago, I opened a thread about the use of MF backs in harsh conditions and MF users where
talkinbg about their experiences. It appeared that those MF backs are extremelly capable of handling extremes conditions, and they don't claim weather seals.
But those where informations from many years users in desert, moutain, ice etc... not for a few days testing that maybe or if.
Weather sealing and ability to handle adverse conditions are not the same. I would NEVER pour a bucket of water on a Phase One system, but that doesn't mean I don't trust it 100% to work consistently and with consistent image quality through a huge variety of heat, cold, spray, humidity, and other "crap" weather.
Many such "claims" need to be proven by the real world usage over many years that you refer to. My senior thesis in college was on time lapse and involved several streaks of thousands of images in the middle of the cold Ohio night (I know there are colder places, but several thousand images in a row in that weather is a pretty harsh test). I had two dSLRs which made similar claims about weather sealing but one performed consistently and the other performed erratically) - I would not even try to make a general conclusion from one such data point (hence I won't tell you the models/brands) but it was a nice early experience for me to realize construction quality, design tolerances, design intentions, manufacturing cost, all come into play and not just phrases like "partially" or "fully" weather sealed.
This is not meant as a slam on any product. The idea that Leica and Pentax can demo their units with glasses of water poured over them is in the very least "really cool" and likely very reassuring for photographers who work in rainy or water-spray-filled areas that don't want to put their camera away after anything more than a moderate drizzle.
Another quick example since they came to mind...
I spent an entire day on location last month troubleshooting a computer/camera/digital-back issue with a client. He is a location architectural shooter. The problem was the system would not connect to the computer when he was on a shoot (so he had to shoot to CF card), but every time he came back from the shoot it worked perfectly (even when we did things "not perfectly" to try to get it to fail). So after some frustrating troubleshooting I was able to pass through his city and troubleshoot with him in person. We found the problem was heat - he sets up his laptop on a stand in the sun and uses a viewing-screen-shade which covers the monitor, but not the rest of the laptop and the sun was hitting the laptop directly for several hours in the hot summer of the South. The phase one back kept trucking the entire time, but the laptop's firewire port would become non-responsive (even to other firewire devices like FW hard drives) after the internal laptop temperature got too high. This was the first generation MacBookPro 17" and it was known for unusually poor heat management (for an Apple laptop). For the troubleshooting we had brought along another (newer) 15" MBP which worked perfectly even as the internal laptop temperature got very high (indicating to me that Apple significantly increased their heat-sinking). It would be impossible to read this from specs as specs like "operating temperature range" don't distinguish between being in direct sunlight or shaded (the "ambient temperature" is the same) and the laptop DID turn on and "worked" - only the FW port was a problem. Needless to say he bought a new laptop and has been happy since.
Doug Peterson ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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Personal Work (http://www.doug-peterson.com/)