Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: jonathandavies on June 27, 2010, 06:15:12 pm
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Hello
I've developed a large format camera for stitching high resolution digital images. I'm looking to bring it to the attention of photographers who may find it useful and get some idea as to what interest there might be in the product, the website is:
www.stitchingcamera.com (http://www.stitchingcamera.com)
I look forward to hearing your thoughts and answering any questions.
Kind regards
Jonathan
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Hello
I've developed a large format camera for stitching high resolution digital images. I'm looking to bring it to the attention of photographers who may find it useful and get some idea as to what interest there might be in the product, the website is:
www.stitchingcamera.com (http://www.stitchingcamera.com)
I look forward to hearing your thoughts and answering any questions.
Kind regards
Jonathan
is there any way of seeing the actual full scene- like on a focusing screen?
paul
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is there any way of seeing the actual full scene- like on a focusing screen?
paul
The text says: "the X axis plate ... will also have a second window allowing composition of the whole shot prior to stitching." That sounds to me somewhat like a wire-frame finder as on some old press cameras. I would expect a full-width live view screen would add a lot to the price.
Looks like an interesting idea.
Eric
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Hi Paul
thanks for your question. The camera in the photos is the prototype, when it goes into production there will be a means of viewing the entire image. The back plate is too short to hold a second window at the moment, there's enough room to push the plate across so it will just need the back plate extending and a window fitting with the right depth for the make of slr mounted.
There are a number of changes planned for the production model, most are mentioned on the site but feel free to ask any questions and I'll do my best to answer.
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The site (well, page) is very light on specs, or even what it actually is and does. Assuming it's used to attach a dSLR body to capture multiple images from an image circle offered by 35mm lenses. If so, this might be an attractive product for certain uses where price is a major concern. My main questions are:
- Are there other benefits than lack of parallax errors and more accurate stitching compared to using a pano or ball head - these might or might not be relevant for a given application
- How many more MP could one expect from typical lenses?
- Is bracketing, aperture control, AF, live view, etc possible?
- Even the best 35mm lenses have softer corners, and many suffer from vignetting. Aren't these even worse when going outside the "expected" imaging area?
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- Even the best 35mm lenses have softer corners, and many suffer from vignetting. Aren't these even worse when going outside the "expected" imaging area?
35mm lenses don't have enough image circle. To really be useful this rig would have to accept MF and LF lenses. The mention on the product page about a recessed lens board seems to confirm LF lens support.
What about adapters for MF lenses from Hassy and Pentax?
The concept looks interesting, somewhat similar to Arca's M-Line 2 in DSLR configuration. Can you tell us a little more about the range of movements possible? From the pictures it appears to be just up/down and left/right shift on the rear standard. What about having tilts on the front standard?
How much will the camera weigh, and can it be easily broken down for packing in a camera backpack?
I've been considering the M-Line 2 for a while now, but if this stitching camera can do everything I want for 1/4 the price, you definitely have my attention. Having some tilt capability is a must-have for me, though.
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Hi Feppe
I do apologize for the lack of information on the site at present, after finishing the prototype I just wanted to get an idea of the interest level but I'll be adding to the site as I go. To answer your questions, your assumption is correct, it is designed to attach a digital slr and stitch images but it works from a large format lens not a 35mm as you were thinking. This means an image circle with a diameter of around 150mm or more. How much of that image you will be able to cover with this camera will vary depending on the capture device mounted, but there is substantial movement possible vertically and horizontally with a digital slr.
Some of the camera functions are lost as there is no electronic connection between lens and camera, but metering is done in manual or shutter priority and adjusted based on the histogram reading. I'm afraid I can't say about live view, as my camera (Sigma SD14) doesn't have that function, I'll have to look into it in the future, maybe test it on a friend's camera. The exact benefit in terms of pixel count is difficult to say as it will vary between cameras, the window in Stitching Camera is 80 x 60mm but as the sensor is set further back it will in theory cover a larger area than this, again this will vary depending on the capture device and lens used, light from a wide angle lens will pass through the window at a greater angle. If we use the size of the 80 x 60mm window as a guide though, stitching camera should turn my 4.7mp Sigma image into 77mp image.
To give some very rough specifications (as these will change for the production model), this is quite a substantial camera designed for use in a studio. It weighs about 3.5 kgs or 8 lbs, I would like to bring this down slightly. The overall length will be about 300mm on the production model, height is about 250mm to the top of the thumb nut.
I hope this helps, Feppe.
Kind regards
Jonathan
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Hi Jeff
I'll try to address your questions individually, the adapters for mf lenses may be possible but it's not something I've considered so far.
The weight of the camera may make it a little heavy to take out into the field, currently, it's about 3.5kgs but the prototype is over engineered and I would like to reduce this. When I have the equipment for manufacturing ready, I'll be able to quickly test exactly how much of this weight I can remove without compromising the camera. Also, I am looking to simplify the attachments for the bellows and the lens board but there are still several bolts and the adjustable gib which might make it difficult to fully disassemble and reassemble in the field.
In it's present state, there are as you pointed out only rise and fall and horizontal shift. The camera was originally designed for the reproduction for fine art, so I was just concerned with increasing resolution. There will be more complex versions, offering tilt and swing later down the line but this may be some time yet and only if this version is able to progress. I am trying to keep the pricing competitive, but these movements will add to the cost.
You mentioned that you were looking only for tilt and swing on the front standard, is this sufficient for your needs? It is certainly a much simpler prospect than at both ends.
I appreciate your questions.
Kind regards
Jonathan
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Would you contemplate making a hex-stitch back to use with a 54 or 57 Sinar and 60Mpx backs? preferably motorisable for remote operation?
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Hi Dick
I'm not familiar with 'hex-stitch', can you fill me in on exactly what this is?
I'm open to ideas for new products and some customization, but it would have to be marketable, otherwise I think it will simply be too expensive. Based on my experience with developing this camera, there is a huge amount of time involved in preparing a product for market that you just can't get back.
I had thought about using motors but electronics aren't really my field and I thought it would introduce too many problems to be worthwhile.
Kind regards
Jonathan
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There are certain advantages to rear tilt, but if I had to I could live without them. The Arca-Swiss segregates the movements like this, and claims that it results in a more precise (and smaller/lighter) camera.
It does sound like your camera will be more suitable for studio and reproduction work. As a landscape photographer, the size/weight and lens compatibility would be concerns for me. Being limited to 70-80mm focal length with my Nikon would substantially limit the amount of work I could do with such a camera.
I like your idea about the composing window, though. Being able to see the full composition when stitching would be really nice.
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I assume there would be a calibration scale for exactly how much shift you have placed in both axis, and a zero point?
I didn't see any thing on the back that indicated one, but there must be.
If this allows LF lenses (and eventually MF backs) this would be interesting.
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Hi Jeff and Liam
Jeff, can you just clarify what you're referring to when you talk about being limited to 70-80mm focal length, are you talking about being limited to a minimum focal length of between 70-80mm or the difference over the range of lenses possible? If it's the minimum, then I think you're always going to have this problem when stitching this way with a digital slr attached, you'd have to go with a medium format back which is possible with my design, I just haven't had any contact with these companies yet, I wanted to see what kind of feedback I get in the market place. Providing there weren't any objections made by the manufacturers, and I can get my hands on the mounting adapters to take the necessary measurements I would very much like to be able to attach medium format backs.
Liam, there will be scales on each of the movements, I didn't bother on the prototype because it was only going to be used by myself. Stitching camera is designed specically for large format lenses, I should have some examples very soon.
Kind regards
Jonathan
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Jeff, can you just clarify what you're referring to when you talk about being limited to 70-80mm focal length, are you talking about being limited to a minimum focal length of between 70-80mm or the difference over the range of lenses possible? If it's the minimum, then I think you're always going to have this problem when stitching this way with a digital slr attached, you'd have to go with a medium format back which is possible with my design, I just haven't had any contact with these companies yet, I wanted to see what kind of feedback I get in the market place. Providing there weren't any objections made by the manufacturers, and I can get my hands on the mounting adapters to take the necessary measurements I would very much like to be able to attach medium format backs.
I was referring to the 72mm Schneider being the shortest digital LF lens you can use with this sort of rig due to flange-to-focal plane distance and the fact that you've got a DSLR mirror box in the way. The way other manufacturers of this sort of camera (Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Horsemen), address this issue is with lensboard adapters that can mount medium-format SLR lenses such as Hassy V-series and Pentax 645. These lenses are retrofocus designs so they have more rear clearance.
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Hi Jeff
thanks for the info and I see your point, this would definitely be useful. I can't see any reason why I couldn't have something like to fit the camera, I hadn't realised this benefit to using mf lenses, so your feedback is very useful.
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I think that your stitching camera could be very successful if you address some key points, most of which have already been mentioned.
I would certainly consider buying one.
To recap:
1) An accurate and clear, full, stitched frame viewing device. How about a ground glass with a fresnel, (obviously spaced to match the camera sensor)?
2) Medium format back mounts. Hasselblad and Phase One would be sufficient for now.
3) Swing and tilt. Does not need to be on both standards.
4) Very precise alignment of everything.
If you do it right you could charge considerably more than your present price.
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Hi JdeV
thanks for your feedback and I'm sorry for not responding sooner, I'll definitely take your suggestions on board.
I'd like to ask everyone whose been following this thread; if the modifications JdeV talks about are made, how many of those currently looking to purchase a stitching type camera would give this one serious consideration?
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Hello
there is now a sample image on the webpage, any and all feedback is welcome.
Jonathan
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Hi,
What do you presently have as your tripod connection system? I assume just a regular screw thread.
You might consider making your rail compatible with an Arca Swiss plate. This is probably the most popular view-camera mounting system.
It would make your camera directly compatible with the Arca Swiss Ball heads, the Cube head and popular third-party products from Kirk and others.
While you are about it you might as well make your lens boards and bellows Arca compatible too. This would give your customers access to the many components in the Arca system and would mean that they would not have to change lens-boards when using their lenses on your camera and their existing view camera. Popular alternatives might be Sinar, Toyo, Linhof or Cambo. Arguments can be made for each.
Bill Maxwell of Maxwell Precision Optics (or Arca again) is probably your best source for your ground glass/fresnel.
[a href=\'index.php?act=findpost&pid=0\']Maxwell Screens[/a]
Cheers,
Jonathan
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Whilst swing and tilt would be great, it is very difficult to have the required ultra-precise zeroing when they are incorporated, (especially, when wear over time is considered).
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Hello
the tripod connection is a screw thread in the middle of the flared area connecting the focusing rack to the rear standard.
I won't be using another manufacturers platform as I'm planning to develop my product range over time, copying these fixtures would limit my own company's possible growth. I am certainly very happy to make modifications where possible, I would encourage customers to ask for new components, prototyping is generally an expensive process but if the changes have universal appeal I will work with you to design exactly what you need.
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IMHO using any tripod mounting system other than Arca-Swiss is a mistake. It's the standard for high-end gear for good reason. At the very least, make sure an Arca-compatible plate can be securely attached to the camera (meaning with two screws, not just one). I would never buy a camera that I couldn't make work with Arca-Swiss mounts, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
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Hi Jeff
Thanks for your comments and I will definitely address it. It was just the wrong choice of words on my part, when I was referring to not using another manufacturers platform I was really talking about their system as a whole, lens board compatibility, bellows mounts etc. As JdeV pointed out their are a number of other makers out there, each with their own subtle differences, aside from the limitations it would put on my product range I think I would be infringing on their design if I did this.
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At the very least, make sure an Arca-compatible plate can be securely attached to the camera (meaning with two screws, not just one). I would never buy a camera that I couldn't make work with Arca-Swiss mounts, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
Agreed.
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Hi pcunite
As I said, I will address this. I should have been more specific in my original response to JdeV, that when using the word platform I was referring to camera parts not the tripod mount. It would never be my intention to isolate my customers from using industry standard fixtures.
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Hi everyone
I really do need help from forum members. I need to ask a very specific question and your replies, or lack of, may impact the decision I end up making. I have something of a dilemma, my reason for posting here was to gain a better understanding of what kind of demand exists for a product such as Stitching Camera. Unfortunately after 6 weeks I’m not really any better informed as to the viability of the product. I have had a number of people contact me directly to say they like the idea or that the product looks good, and some suggestions or words of support that the product could be successful should certain issues be addressed but not enough to warrant the expense involved in developing this further.
At present, I do not know if people are genuinely interested but waiting to see how the product will develop or whether they are simply curious observers. If it is the former, then without more feedback in the form of definite interest, the product is unlikely to develop any further. I cannot get the financial backing needed without some indication - in the form of orders or letters of intent - that customers exist and are interested in purchasing the product.
I understand that the product is still at the prototype stage and there are changes planned in the design but I can give a clearer idea of what I have in mind if this will help. I am planning, a range of 6 cameras, 3 medium format, 3 large format. There will be a basic model with horizontal and vertical shift at the rear, a model with the addition of tilt and swing at the front, and a model with additional tilt and swing at the rear and horizontal and vertical shift at the front. All the movements will be gear or lead-screw driven, and slides will run on linear guides. There will be an interchangeable view screen at the rear instead of the plate design currently shown, I feel this will result in a lighter set-up. Prices for the large format models will be £1586, £1800 and £2650 inc vat. Prices for the medium format versions have not been finalized but will be lower. I will be able to offer compatibility with Hasselblad, Leaf, Mamiya and Phase One digital backs as well as Canon, Nikon and Sigma dslrs (dslr mounts are available for the medium format Stitching Camera models only, the extra movement of the large format range is redundant when using a dslr).
I have to demonstrate the company’s potential both to myself and to the bank. If the cameras described are of enough interest to you to give a written indication of such, could you please contact me directly through the website?
Kind regards