Luminous Landscape Forum
Site & Board Matters => About This Site => Topic started by: BernardLanguillier on May 24, 2010, 11:54:45 pm
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Hi Michael,
Thanks for the review of the NEX-5.
You are pretty tough on the camera overall, but it is probably indeed an interesting platform.
Now I was surprised by the very first sentence of your review.
Indeed, you write in your intro: "The Sony NEX cameras represent some of the most innovative thinking in camera design since Canon invented the modern SLR with the T90 back in 1986. It is the first digital camera not to owe the bulk of its design gestalt to previous film-based designs, and as we'll see, it points to a future where still and video cameras not only converge, but also share lens mounts."
I don't see anything else in the rest of the article really backing up this opening statement. The Sony is mostly a variation of the theme created by Olympus/Panasonic with their 4/3 cameras like the GF1 isn't it? The only one difference I can see is that Sony made the body a bit smaller than the mount, but I see little value in doing this when you factor in the actual size of the lenses. The body+lens combo is larger with the Sony because of its larger sensor, isn't it?
Regards,
Bernard
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Interesting review.
I have to say that I do not understand the Sony politic on this one.
I've been very interested by this camera, and thought it could really threaten the M4T supremacy.
But then, later, I fall on to a quick video showing the menu and thought: mmmm....I feared the worst.
Michael in his review is confirming my fears and even more issues that appear when handled the gear for awhile.
Yes, it is not going to be taken seriously by advanced photographers.
It is a little bit frustrating really, because the Sony as a great potencial but it is ruined by too much marketing and cosmetic eccentricity.
I don't get this: which market then is targeting this Sony?
If it is the basic users that does not want neither need a great usability and larger sensor than the M4T, then why would this "target" buy the NEX-5?
A compact camera with HD video would be enough, or even the very interesting simplified version of the EP1: the Olympus EPL1.
So to me, they migh be targeting a kind of tech-gadget-erasmus-user that wants something a little more powerfull and fun than a traditional compact but looks high tech and different?
That is indeed a pitty. But that also shows that M4T have been doing well the homework so far and maybe there will be absolutly no threat for them if the competition is not understanding the basics needs and good interface designs that photographers want.
On the other hand, I saw an interview in a Spanish source of the Sony executive Toru Katsumoto saying that they are coming into this market but that they will follow a slightly different path that what Pana and Oly are doing...well, for the moment we have seen what kind of path they are following.
I won't buy that camera for sure. Don't mess with the usability and controls Sony!
I don't think that the Minolta team was involved in this one...
Waiting a G11 version with aps sensor and canon's mount, or a Nikon proposal.
Ps: Rob, it seems that you where right about that Sony and I was wrong. Another marketing gadget from digiland to add on the very long list so far.
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Bernard,
Not sure what you mean by "typo", or why you disagree about the NEX-5 not being original in its design.
In fact if you put it side-by-side with a Panasonic GF / GF or Olympus you quickly see that these are simply shrunken versions of previous cameras. The NEX, on the other hand, shares an electronic lens mount between a still and video camera for the same time, has absolutely no mechnical controls, has a minimum of controls of any sort, and the worst menu system ever designed by a human being.
I think that all of these make it someone different from what we've seen before.
Michael
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Hi Michael,
The camera actually does have DOF preview; my understanding is that it's activated all the time. Sony even advertises this on their specs page under the "defocus control" feature when in auto that it shows live DOF.
Now, whether that active DOF preview is enabled all the time in, say, Aperture Priority or other modes, I'm not sure. But I know it can do it thanks to the new stepless aperture motor and auto-gain live view sensor. Since there's no customary darkening of the view with stepping down anymore, it may be very subtle to notice.
A compact camera with HD video would be enough, or even the very interesting simplified version of the EP1: the Olympus EPL1.
The EP-L1 seems to have the same issues as the NEX, with a highly menu driven system that annoys higher level users. Of course it'll be frustrating to a user like Michael because he expects quick and easy access to all camera settings all the time. I preferred the EP-2 well over the EP-L1 for probably the same reasons Michael would. The EP-L1 was quite annoying for me, but my sister could happily point-and-shoot with it all day long and get fine results.
His suggestions are good ones: a My Menu and being able to reprogram the soft button are two good ones. Another idea is to allow the flash button to be reprogrammable when the flash is not in use (an old Minolta trick). Adding a "Remember Last Used" item for the menu would also be helpful. Echoing the recent HX5 review, the NEX-5 could be the TX7 to a future NEX-7's HX5. I think I just made my head spin there.
I think the criticisms are well placed, but for the vast majority of users of the target market, who will rarely change settings at all, will it matter all that much? These are clearly not going to be the only NEX cameras, and likely there will be a higher featured/complexity model coming out soon enough.
Also, Michael, the lens mount has room for two additional pins, for a total of 12. Stay tuned, I guess? The subject of power zoom is an interesting one, as the Alpha mount already supports it (and the NEX mount is derived from A-Mount). The Xi cameras in the early 90s had power zoom motors. The protocol is currently deprecated but I suppose it could come back.
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Bernard,
Not sure what you mean by "typo", or why you disagree about the NEX-5 not being original in its design.
In fact if you put it side-by-side with a Panasonic GF / GF or Olympus you quickly see that these are simply shrunken versions of previous cameras. The NEX, on the other hand, shares an electronic lens mount between a still and video camera for the same time, has absolutely no mechnical controls, has a minimum of controls of any sort, and the worst menu system ever designed by a human being.
I think that all of these make it someone different from what we've seen before.
Michael
Michael, I noticed that you mentioned having to click on the 4 way pad a million times to cycle through settings. Can you not scroll in the menus with the dial like an iPod?
Although I certainly hope Sony fixes things via firmware, the interface looks usable to me. I don't use any jpeg settings, and I'm in M or A mode all of the time. So, it seems ISO is the only inconvenient setting, no?
Also, from what I understand, the NEX always stops down to the shooting aperture with E lenses, so you're essentially always getting a DOF preview in realtime.
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Michael,
As you note above:
I think that all of these make it someone different from what we've seen before.
There are a few things that are different on these cameras, but in your review you note that they represent 'innovative thinking'. I am not sure that I see the innovation, apart from the application of a large sensor to a basically P&S interface. I feel that this combination offers a great opportunity for many people to secure good shots under conditions where their P&S would fail, or where they have not learned to use the many options on a DSLR.
But I don't yet see too much innovation here, at least by my definition, which would require the photographic world to move forward in some significant way - or at least do a better job of implementing something that had gone before.
Assuming good image quality, the thing that is most important to me is the interface. For my smaller camera this drove me to choose the GF1 over the EP series. The Eps are not 'bad', but the GF1 gets so much right in making it simple and intuitive to change settings quickly and easily.
The Sony's fail for me on this point, but for the target audience they are pretty cool.
I sense Sony sees the same challenge as canon and Nikon: make your smaller cameras as good as your lower end DSLRs and you could find margins squeezed.
Interesting times.
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Bernard,
Not sure what you mean by "typo", or why you disagree about the NEX-5 not being original in its design.
In fact if you put it side-by-side with a Panasonic GF / GF or Olympus you quickly see that these are simply shrunken versions of previous cameras. The NEX, on the other hand, shares an electronic lens mount between a still and video camera for the same time, has absolutely no mechnical controls, has a minimum of controls of any sort, and the worst menu system ever designed by a human being.
I think that all of these make it someone different from what we've seen before.
Michael
Michael,
Probably poor wording on my side, but the article reads a bit like the intro was written before actual usage and was not updated after the rest was written.
I guess that "innovative thinking" in my mind applies to successful designs only. It is pretty obvious to me that the lack of physical controls on a camera is not a positive development. A key difference between a phone and a camera is the need to operate quickly the camera. This drives fundamentally different requirements in terms of interface.
As far as videdo goes, it appears that Panasonic is still ahead qualitywise and they have already annouced their intent to leverage the 4/3 mount to design specific video cameras also, and did that prior to Sony.
Cheers,
Bernard
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But I don't yet see too much innovation here, at least by my definition, which would require the photographic world to move forward in some significant way - or at least do a better job of implementing something that had gone before.
IMHO, the innovation lies in the fact that Sony plans to reuse the sensor and mount in a more conventional video camera which, I assume, will have video oriented ergonomics, focusing mechanism, firmware, etc... http://blog.discover.sonystyle.com/sneak-p...-in-development (http://blog.discover.sonystyle.com/sneak-peek-new-sony-camcorder-in-development). One set of lenses, two small specialized bodies in a single bag, that is, at the very least, practical convergence.
Ideally, of course, a single camera would have two full modes of operation (pure photo & pure video, as opposed to the ability to take snapshots with a camcorder or a handicapped movie mode on cameras) and a physical form factor that would be somehow suitable for both tasks given the shooting habits of the respective existing user bases. That's probably the hardest part from an industrial design point of view...
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I think the problem with this camera is the same problem that you see with a lot of Sony products -- it seems almost entirely driven by marketing. They created the smallest body for an interchangeable lens camera, but who really wanted a "smallest" body? What we wanted was an appropriately sized, ergonomic body smaller and lighter than a DSLR with a large chip, but in going for the marketing claim of "smallest," they've created a body with a flimsy tripod support, awkward controls and "optional" features that seem to me to be essential, rather than optional. The befuddling thing is that isn't exactly rocket science -- Panasonic got it about right: you come out with an edge to edge range of zooms, and a fast prime (or, if the marketers had really been watching, three fast primes), some kind of pop-up flash and at least a clip on EVF.
You see the same thing with Sony DSLRS -- attractive prices to seize market position, some pro qualities, and then, little follow up.
JC
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Far be it from me to defend Sony ( though I use many of their products as a legacy Minolta user ) but it seems to me they came closer than most of the other manufacturers to meeting our needs - but no cigar. What most of us wanted was a small alternative to a DSLR but with good IQ and ergonomics. Much of the features that critics of this camera have noted as missing really only belong on a larger camera. I'm only going to point out one - a proper tripod mount. If you're going to bother to carry a tripod you can carry a DSLR! But Michael's criticisms are fair. The menus are too deep and arcane. The only lens that will make this camera pocketable is suspect in quality and focal length (although there are rumours of a 30mm lens). The "missing" EVF is not replaced with a very bright LCD - has any Sony engineer ever tried to take a picture on a bright day with sunglasses? Should Sony address these issues in the near future, I'll be first in line to get a NEX.
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Far be it from me to defend Sony ( though I use many of their products as a legacy Minolta user ) but it seems to me they came closer than most of the other manufacturers to meeting our needs - but no cigar. What most of us wanted was a small alternative to a DSLR but with good IQ and ergonomics. Much of the features that critics of this camera have noted as missing really only belong on a larger camera. I'm only going to point out one - a proper tripod mount. If you're going to bother to carry a tripod you can carry a DSLR! But Michael's criticisms are fair. The menus are too deep and arcane. The only lens that will make this camera pocketable is suspect in quality and focal length (although there are rumours of a 30mm lens). The "missing" EVF is not replaced with a very bright LCD - has any Sony engineer ever tried to take a picture on a bright day with sunglasses? Should Sony address these issues in the near future, I'll be first in line to get a NEX.
Agreed. Once there's a fast standard prime and possibly an EVF, I'm on board. I could care less about hotshoes, standard flashes, tons of external controls, zoom lenses, tripod mounts, etc. on a pocketable camera. That's what DSLRs are for. A, S and M mode on the NEX seem to work fine, with the exception of menu diving for ISO, so just some tweaks in the interface will help a lot. Assign that "shooting tips" soft button to ISO and we're good to go.
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Just because a camera is small it does not always follow that it should have very few controls or a dodgy/frustrating menu system. Granted many compacts are far from awesome handling wise..but there are some obvious mistakes here Sony has made. Lots of compacts now have a mode selection dial..much better than being forced into a main menu all the time. Why not here?
Some have buttons that can be assigned a custom function or short-cut..again nothing to stop Sony doing this.
Nothing is perfect never is..but some of this stuff is pretty basic design wise. What's so hard about proper user customisation? Why not let the user pick an Auto ISO level or a min/max etc?
As a Minolta user I'm not expecting a Dynax/Maxxum 7 body loaded with switches and buttons/dials (personally I love the instant access to most functions, and a very visual sign of what settings I am in) Have a look around plenty of compacts that at least attempt reasonable controls and menus..some better than others I would add, but few as poor as this.
I'm not shocked at all by this. I watched them "de-button" their entry range of DSLR's. Yup some bright spark in a suit (who probably never uses a camera), decided it would be a great idea to take off the AEL button..thus making CW and spot metering modes half useless..they force you into the main menu just to change AF point (no AF button nope..), no flash raise button either..you have to go into a menu for this too. Ok it's just an entry DSLR, but who said this was a good idea? Why deliberately make something with "bad handling". Ditto for the NEX models..the beta models probably never saw the hands/feedback of a half clued in photographer..so some whacky design team was let loose on it.
Again nobody forces them to offer no control over aperture/shutter/ISO in the video mode either. Sony don't know how to do "easy to use"..they just play about with controls (mostly removing them in the false belief this makes a camera easier to use) The company has a very simplistic view of buyers in a certain price range..thus they are not even attempting to appeal to enthusiasts. I see no signs of this changing..sadly. Minolta were masters of ergonomics in many ways..Sony are not even complete novices.
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Just because a camera is small it does not always follow that it should have very few controls or a dodgy/frustrating menu system. Granted many compacts are far from awesome handling wise..but there are some obvious mistakes here Sony has made. Lots of compacts now have a mode selection dial..much better than being forced into a main menu all the time. Why not here?
Some have buttons that can be assigned a custom function or short-cut..again nothing to stop Sony doing this.
Nothing is perfect never is..but some of this stuff is pretty basic design wise. What's so hard about proper user customisation? Why not let the user pick an Auto ISO level or a min/max etc?
As a Minolta user I'm not expecting a Dynax/Maxxum 7 body loaded with switches and buttons/dials (personally I love the instant access to most functions, and a very visual sign of what settings I am in) Have a look around plenty of compacts that at least attempt reasonable controls and menus..some better than others I would add, but few as poor as this.
I'm not shocked at all by this. I watched them "de-button" their entry range of DSLR's. Yup some bright spark in a suit (who probably never uses a camera), decided it would be a great idea to take off the AEL button..thus making CW and spot metering modes half useless..they force you into the main menu just to change AF point (no AF button nope..), no flash raise button either..you have to go into a menu for this too. Ok it's just an entry DSLR, but who said this was a good idea? Why deliberately make something with "bad handling". Ditto for the NEX models..the beta models probably never saw the hands/feedback of a half clued in photographer..so some whacky design team was let loose on it.
Again nobody forces them to offer no control over aperture/shutter/ISO in the video mode either. Sony don't know how to do "easy to use"..they just play about with controls (mostly removing them in the false belief this makes a camera easier to use) The company has a very simplistic view of buyers in a certain price range..thus they are not even attempting to appeal to enthusiasts. I see no signs of this changing..sadly. Minolta were masters of ergonomics in many ways..Sony are not even complete novices.
Top rant mate, top rant.
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Just because a camera is small it does not always follow that it should have very few controls or a dodgy/frustrating menu system. Granted many compacts are far from awesome handling wise..but there are some obvious mistakes here Sony has made. Lots of compacts now have a mode selection dial..much better than being forced into a main menu all the time. Why not here?
Some have buttons that can be assigned a custom function or short-cut..again nothing to stop Sony doing this.
Nothing is perfect never is..but some of this stuff is pretty basic design wise. What's so hard about proper user customisation? Why not let the user pick an Auto ISO level or a min/max etc?
As a Minolta user I'm not expecting a Dynax/Maxxum 7 body loaded with switches and buttons/dials (personally I love the instant access to most functions, and a very visual sign of what settings I am in) Have a look around plenty of compacts that at least attempt reasonable controls and menus..some better than others I would add, but few as poor as this.
I'm not shocked at all by this. I watched them "de-button" their entry range of DSLR's. Yup some bright spark in a suit (who probably never uses a camera), decided it would be a great idea to take off the AEL button..thus making CW and spot metering modes half useless..they force you into the main menu just to change AF point (no AF button nope..), no flash raise button either..you have to go into a menu for this too. Ok it's just an entry DSLR, but who said this was a good idea? Why deliberately make something with "bad handling". Ditto for the NEX models..the beta models probably never saw the hands/feedback of a half clued in photographer..so some whacky design team was let loose on it.
Again nobody forces them to offer no control over aperture/shutter/ISO in the video mode either. Sony don't know how to do "easy to use"..they just play about with controls (mostly removing them in the false belief this makes a camera easier to use) The company has a very simplistic view of buyers in a certain price range..thus they are not even attempting to appeal to enthusiasts. I see no signs of this changing..sadly. Minolta were masters of ergonomics in many ways..Sony are not even complete novices.
I obviously love all the buttons of my A900, but I still think the number of buttons and dials on the NEX-5 is fine. It's how they're implemented in software that hurts the camera, IMO.
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The people at Sony are supposed to be the smartest kids in the room. OK, maybe second smartest behind the kids at Canon.
They are obviously much better at product positioning than I am, so therefore this camera is perfect. My thinking about how a camera should be designed is obviously wrong since I disagree with them, but I will bow to their superiority.
But that doesn't mean that I'll be buying one for myself or recommending one to anybody else. They obviously weren't targeting me with the camera. I'm not sure who they are exactly expecting to buy the camera and be happy with it--I'm not that smart.
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Just because a company is big..does not mean they are "skilled" or even good at what they do. Sony has a very mixed history from moments of greatness in the market (walkman, playstation) to some serious lapses of judgement (Sony BMG copy protection, dead goat adverts, mini disc) And Apple completely caught them napping with the I-pod. So a company that has massive potential..no question.
But they don't always deliver on that.
And at the moment they seem to be unable to support their DSLR users needs (in some cases..note lack of FW updates etc)
I'd love to see them do well with this..but it's said they got the Sony Ericsson team to design the GUI, I'm not sure the relationship between a phone and camera is ideal handling wise!
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...They obviously weren't targeting me with the camera. I'm not sure who they are exactly expecting to buy the camera and be happy with it--I'm not that smart.
I've spent more time than I care to admit thinking about the target market for this camera, I'm still coming up with a blank. It appears to be aimed at those wanting better image quality than a compact while retaining the automatic functions and ease of use, yet the user interface is far worse and less intuitive than that of my 3 year old Canon compact. I can pick up any pocket camera from Canon or Nikon and dial up ISO, white balance, and exposure compensation within seconds, those settings will either have a direct button or be no more than a single level down in the menu system. With the Sony, these settings are buried several layers down in the menu, that's fine if the user is content to stay in auto everything mode but if manual adjustments are desired it can get pretty frustrating.
To my thinking, the people buying micro 4/3 and other large sensor small body camera systems are looking for better image quality along with some (most?) of the flexibility & control offered by a DSLR. That means fast intuitive ISO, exposure, colour, and mode settings. The NEX-5 has the image quality but not the flexibility and control, and that baffles me. What is their target market, or did they make an epic screw up? I still don't know.
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Just WHO is this camera designed for?
Obviously not me or many others here. But it will no doubt sell thousands. There's millions of people who buy cameras without a single thought about menu usability, DOF, high ISO performance, RAW capability or sensor size. It's much like I don't read up about liquid absorbtion and retention rates on different paper towel brands when I buy them. They'll walk in to a SONY store at a mall and fall in love with this small cute gadget. This is a camera sold by a recognized BRAND that has a reputation. It is targeted for those millions of people who make purchasing decisions according to brand, not specs, not usability, not IQ. There's millions of people that will be willing to spend a bit more money on something that isn't a simple P&S. They may not understand why this camera is different from a P&S - but they'll know it was designed by a reputable brand and that it is supposed to be better than a simple P&S. that'll be good enough for them. It certainly will be easier to carry around than an intimidating DSLR and it will be more expensive (therefore 'better') than a P&S.
Sure it has a crap menu. But that won't be on the radar of those people that will stroll in to a SONY store. It's marketing, not performance that will sell this baby.
Seriously. Think about it. There's a lot of people who when buying a camera don't possess a clue as to what they want OR what they should be looking for in a camera. They head down to the local camera shop and ask the guy behind the counter to show them what they have available for a cewrtain amount of cash. They look at the options and decide then and there. This is a camera that seems to promise to be a step above a P&S AND it from a reputable brand. Marketing and sales people can make this baby sell.
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I recently bought a NEX5 with the kit zoom lens (18-55) and find it to be a perfect "carry everywhere" supplement to my A900, that can shoot 1080 video. Also, I notice that unlike the intent of Sony, who created this camera for "p&s upgraders", most of the buyers I know about, are users of higher-end dSLRs, than people who upgraded from p&s models.....strange as that seems. I am more of an A-mode shooter and once I switch to the A-mode (via the menu), I am just fine for the whole session (since the apertures can be changed via the dial, as needed, without switching to the menu again), unless I want to switch out of the Auto-ISO mode (ISO 100-1600) and manually switch to a different ISO and if so, then I need to make a couple of button clicks and go to the menu to make the change.
The advantages the NEX has (over the prior such "micro" mirrorless releases) is of course the incredibly small flange-back distance of 18mm (noticeably slimmer than the significantly smaller sensored micro-4/3 products), a mount that is larger than the Full-frame Leica M-mount etc. The upcoming NEX7 is intended to bridge some of the complaints that people have about the NEX3/5, by increasing the body size a bit (to that of a Panasonic GF1), add in the obligatory dials/buttons for direct control over the exposure settings, add in an EVF, add in the in-body stabilization (at the expense of making the body a bit more thicker than the NEX3/5), add in a built-in flash (than have the free flash add-on that Sony provides for the NEX5), bring in 1080P video (than the 1080i that comes on the NEX5) and so on.
PS: Toru Katsumoto, the Senior GM of imaging of Sony, made an interesting statement about the mount being larger than some of the Full-frame mounts like the Leica M etc. He stated that technically it is possible to introduce a FF sensor into the NEX, but that some tweaks will need to happen to the mount, since this particular version of the NEX mount is "optimized for APS-C sensors".
PS1: Masashi Imamura, the president of Sony Imaging and Sound business groups, stated that Carl Zeiss lenses for the NEX format are on the way. Of course it goes without saying that when a manufacturer creates Carl Zeiss lenses for a mount, they don't intend to have it be used on a a body like the NEX3/5, but for much more serious intent on a more pro-oriented body (the Panasonic GF1-sized upcoming NEX7 mentioned above).
PS2: Toru Katsumoto (via an interview in CNET Asia) also stated that their engineers are working on a firmware upgrade to enable AF (via the Alpha to NEX adapter) with the Sony A-mount lenses that contain a built-in ultra-sonic motor (Carl Zeiss 16-35, Carl Zeiss 24-70, Sony 70-300G, Sony 70-200 f/2.8G, Sony 70-400 f/4-5.6G, Sony 300mm f/2.8G etc). Of course one will have to re-adjust the way one uses a camera with such lenses, by handling the combo via the lens than by using the camera body. Either way, shooting 1080 video with such lenses does sound promising. Some users belonging to the Alpha user group in South Africa, did use the NEX5 with Alpha lenses where the AF was functional in the firmware and stated that the AF speed was very usable, unlike say the AF in a dSLR (when in Contrast-Detect/Live-view mode), which is pretty much unusable. The NEX5's AF with Alpha Full-frame lenses was slightly slower than a typical DSLR Phase-Detect system but otherwise fully functional/usable.
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I recently bought a NEX5 with the kit zoom lens (18-55) and find it to be a perfect supplement to my A900. Also, I notice that unlike the intent of Sony, who created this camera for "p&s upgraders", most of the buyers I know about, are users of higher-end dSLRs, than people who upgraded from p&s models.....strange as that seems. I am more of an A-mode shooter and once I switch to the A-mode (via the menu), I am just fine for the whole session, unless I want to switch out of the Auto-ISO mode (ISO 100-1600) and manually switch to a different chosen ISO.
The advantages the NEX has (over the prior such "micro" mirrorless releases) is of course the incredibly small flange-back distance of 18mm (noticeably slimmer than the significantly smaller sensored micro-4/3 products), a mount that is larger than the Full-frame Leica M-mount etc. The upcoming NEX7 is intended to bridge some of the complaints that people have about the NEX3/5, by increasing the body size a bit (to that of a Panasonic GF1), add in the obligatory dials/buttons for direct control over the exposure settings, add in an EVF, add in the in-body stabilization (at the expense of making the body a bit more thicker than the NEX3/5, add in a built-in flash (than have the free flash add-on that Sony provides for the NEX5), bring in 1080P video (than the 1080i that comes on the NEX5) and so on.
PS: Toru Katsumoto, the Senior GM of imaging of Sony, made an interesting statement about the mount being larger than some of the Full-frame mounts like the Leica M etc. He stated that technically it is possible to introduce a FF sensor into the NEX, but that some tweaks will need to happen to the mount since this particular version of the NEX mount is "optimized for APS-C sensors".
PS2: Toru Katsumoto (via an interview in CNET Asia) also stated that their engineers are working on a firmware upgrade to enable AF (via the Alpha to NEX adapter) with the Sony A-mount lenses that contain a built-in ultra-sonic motor (Carl Zeiss 16-35, Carl Zeiss 24-70, Sony 70-300G, Sony 70-200 f/2.8G, Sony 70-400 f/4-5.6G, Sony 300mm f/2.8G etc). Of course one will have to re-adjust the way one uses a camera with such lenses, by handling the combo via the lens than by using the camera body. Either way, shooting 1080 video with such lenses does sound promising. Some users belonging to the Alpha user group in South Africa, did use the NEX5 with Alpha lenses where the AF was functional in the firmware and stated that the AF speed was very usable, unlike say the AF in a dSLR (when in Contrast-Detect/Live-view mode), which is pretty much unusable with it being slightly slower than a typical DSLR Phase-Detect system but otherwise fully functional.
Oh man...your post is loaded for a m4/3 weapons responses. Have you switch on your digital humbrella?
Best luck.
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Oh man...your post is loaded for a m4/3 weapons responses. Have you switch on your digital humbrella?
Best luck.
You might note that Aakay isn't wildly predicting things nor using any minor advantage as a reason to predict the imminent death of m43.
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You might note that Aakay isn't wildly predicting things nor using any minor advantage as a reason to predict the imminent death of m43.
I put a note on one post somewhere in one of these Sony threads where I recognised I was wrong on that point and evaluated badly the competition
maturity.
Also, keep in mind that this industry is extremely unstable. My statement that m4/3 could disapear as a reference, was not something exotic at all. I just misinterpretated the date.
Things are changing very fast. Standards are moving, brands suddenly disappear in a question of years. Legendary brands like Minolta, Contax, Leaf suddenly disappear. Now movie standard have changed, Full frame under 3000euros are available, more and more MF users are going high-end CaNikon, Flash is disapearing for Html5, the new m4/3 panasonic video camera are going to challenge the combocams like the 5D2 who has just been released not so long time ago...
What's true today will not necessary be true tomorrow. And tomorrow in digiland is really tomorrow.
There is a clear tendency. Macro sensors and micro size and usability. In other words, more power in a smaller package. What I was predicted was not a sort of Nostradamus fantasy exercice but simply looking at this industry and how all the circus is working. I still beleive that more powrfull systems will emerge and compeat soon or later with this standard and will chalenge it more than seriously, at least for photographic stills.
Cheers.
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You might note that Aakay isn't wildly predicting things nor using any minor advantage as a reason to predict the imminent death of m43.
Wow, a fellow Minnesotan ! Even single one of the quotes above, from the named senior managers in Sony Imaging, are not predictions but ones that have actually taken place.
Bottomline, I believe the m43 cameras are doing what they did when it came to their dSLRs, which was deciding to go with a relatively small sensor. That part of their business (the dSLR side) is on the verge of shuttering up, due to that initial choice. I don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure out that given equal technology, a micro-4/3 sensor, being 60% smaller than a 1.5x APS-C sensor (let alone a Full-frame sensor), will always carry that disadvantage into any such comparison - when things like DR, high-ISO ability, DOF control etc are bought into the comparison. Sony seemed to have demonstrated with these initial models that even the sensor size increase does not necessarily mean a large increase in the size of the body (or lenses), as people would have assumed during the dawn of the "micro" era when Panasonic introduced the GH1.
Micro-43 enjoyed a competition-free field to themselves for the past couple of years, but now the competition is starting to turn up the heat. You don't need to feel defensive about your purchase - that is just the way the market would move from here on. Sony is not in this game to play second fiddle to anyone and this is clearly a strategically important part of their Imaging game-plan.
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Wow, a fellow Minnesotan ! Even single one of the quotes above, from the named senior managers in Sony Imaging, are not predictions but ones that have actually taken place.
Bottomline, I believe the m43 cameras are doing what they did when it came to their dSLRs, which was deciding to go with a relatively small sensor. That part of their business (the dSLR side) is on the verge of shuttering up, due to that initial choice. I don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure out that given equal technology, a micro-4/3 sensor, being 60% smaller than a 1.5x APS-C sensor (let alone a Full-frame sensor), will always carry that disadvantage into any such comparison - when things like DR, high-ISO ability, DOF control etc are bought into the comparison. Sony seemed to have demonstrated with these initial models that even the sensor size increase does not necessarily mean a large increase in the size of the body (or lenses), as people would have assumed during the dawn of the "micro" era when Panasonic introduced the GH1.
Micro-43 enjoyed a competition-free field to themselves for the past couple of years, but now the competition is starting to turn up the heat. You don't need to feel defensive about your purchase - that is just the way the market would move from here on. Sony is not in this game to play second fiddle to anyone and this is clearly a strategically important part of their Imaging game-plan.
My thoughts, exactly.
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Ok.
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I've wanted a small pocket sized digital camera that produces DSLR like image quality for a long time and I've watched with interest as the m43 systems hit the market and I've used/tested most of them. Frankly I didn't get that excited about the image quality from these but the concept and portability intrigued me. I use large DSLR's when I work, but when traveling around the city (Bangkok) I wanted something light enough to carry in my knapsack so I really wouldn't notice it's weight or bulk. In the past there's been a steady stream of point and shoots in my knapsack from the Fuji fd30/f31, Canon G9/11, Fuji f200exr, and the quest continued. I'd use these cameras less and less for anything other than snaps with friends. If I saw a scene, a break in weather, a prime photo-op.. it had to be really good to motivate me to take the time with one of these cameras and then suffer through the limited image quality.
This has changed with the NEX-5/18-55 kit. I had one of the first 100 previewed here (weeks before it arrived in the states or EU) and while it's not perfect.. it does produce much better image quality than anything else in its class and on par with the average APC-S DSLR.. imo..
I remain a bit confused about some of the comments from the testers.. some things were just flat wrong and others exaggerated. I can easily change my settings in Av or Tv or M modes with the turn or a dial or perhaps a push of the button and they are visible 100% of the time if you set the camera that way. ISO settings remain a few button pushes away but I don't find this that big a deal for a serious capture, the rest of the time Auto ISO suffices for fun and snap purposes.
I find the 18-55 lens on par and in fact better than the average mid-range zoom for DSLR's but not as good as the top AFS or L zooms for my Nikon or Canon's. It's silky smooth and feels very precision and you can't help but get super sharp results if you use it right. I can post samples if anyone cares.
The LCD is beautiful.. but I think the numbers/text could be larger and easier to see.. this should be adjustable.
The articulating LCD and small size makes candid captures both fun and possible where viewfinder use would not. I long for a EVF attachment for serious capture, but the more I use the articulating LCD the less the longing..
Software sucks. I can't wait for LR3 or ACR to support the RAW.. it's a major PIA to use the included Sony software.. but this is an issue with any new camera. If you get one of the first ones you end up waiting a small period until the software updates are released.
The movie mode for 'fun/personal' use is great. I'm not and never will be a serious videographer and when I must do serious video I use my 5d2 for that.. but for personal use it's great. The "sweep panorama" is also heaps of fun, and the images interesting.. but it does take some work to get really good image quality and you'd expect from how this mode is used.
I'd say.. if you're not already invested in the m43 genre.. and want a small portable camera with DSLR like image quality then the NEX-5 is worthy of serious consideration.. I personally find it a no-brainer. Will a NEX-7 be better? Without a doubt.. and so will the new Canon 1ds4 when it's released.. but until then my NEX-5 and 1ds2/5d2/1d4... they all take the same pictures with the same image quality they always have..
And maybe I shouldn't say this.. but I see the NEX-5 as "disposable" as I do my point and shoots. I'll get my $700 worth of enjoyment out of it before I pass it on to a son or relative, or maybe I'll keep a lens for the model that replaces it.. dunno.. but I'm not going to fret over the relatively low cost of this particular camera for the utility and fun its providing. I have a room full of old P&S's and DSLR's that bother me far more..
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Any Sont Alpha user should get one of these along with the A-mount adapter - think of it as an ultra portable digital back that can serve as a backup to your dSLR.
I am waiting to see if the 16mm pancake is decent. If it is, the effective 24mm focal length is perfect for me and would make a terrific little go-anywhere camera with very nice image quality. Just set it at ISO 200 in aperture priority mode and I'm good to go all day. But the price of that little pancake tells me it's probably not going to knock my socks off. Time will tell.
That's all I really want - a very small camera with a (relatively) large sensor and a wide angle lens that is also small. My only other choice it seems is the Sigma DP1X, with an effective 28mm focal length.
Maybe I will get lucky and Leica will introduce the X2 with a wider lens than the X1? (that would be most excellent!)
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There really isn't a lot of incentive for A mount users to consider NEX over any other offerings. Limited comparability with A mount lenses, you can't use your flash guns on it either that's the same situation as other brands/ Nothing here that screams "Alpha" at all. Sony didn't really try to pull A mount users in on this one.
Maybe they don't need them. I still think the optics on the NEX so far is a bit mediocre and not as good as expected. You've still got lenses that are simply far too big to make sense with a body of this style (go look at rangefinder lenses for starters) And frankly handling wise Sony have been left wanting for some time now. If they can hire some folks who understand how to make superb on body controls we might be in luck. As it is it's a B movie with C Listers, and serious users will have "seen enough" and hit the exit in the first 10 minutes ;-)
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There really isn't a lot of incentive for A mount users to consider NEX over any other offerings. Limited comparability with A mount lenses, you can't use your flash guns on it either that's the same situation as other brands/ Nothing here that screams "Alpha" at all. Sony didn't really try to pull A mount users in on this one.
Maybe they don't need them. I still think the optics on the NEX so far is a bit mediocre and not as good as expected. You've still got lenses that are simply far too big to make sense with a body of this style (go look at rangefinder lenses for starters) And frankly handling wise Sony have been left wanting for some time now. If they can hire some folks who understand how to make superb on body controls we might be in luck. As it is it's a B movie with C Listers, and serious users will have "seen enough" and hit the exit in the first 10 minutes ;-)
Now that's just downright insulting.. ;o)
I can't wait for the 16mm to become available, but so far I have zero complaints from the 18-55 that LR3 and ACR profiles probably won't fix.. I really hope we see those updates soon.
I'd put the 18-55mm on my NEX-5 up against all but the very best AFS/L mid-range zooms.. I have no serious experience with the Leica type class so no comments here.
I was documenting a CPU cooler repair the other day.. one handed shooting while busy.. in no way thinking about photography past the occasional documentary shot. Check out the fine print on the CPU.. RAW to Tiff (via Sony software) to jpeg vs. PS.. no sharpening or anything else added.. so dark.. but the sharpness is apparent. And yes.. I know color, contrast, flare resistance, lack of CA, and other lens properties count too.. they seem at least on par with the sharpness imo..
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I use GF-1 and just got a NEX5 with the 16mm. Apart from its true performance, I might just want to add that the NEX is a product of market demand, studied by whoever. LL is a forum heavily influenced by mindset of westerners, which is also a large market, but not the only major market. A lot of Japanese consumer, and younger consumer, and female consumer, does like the statement of small and compact, and their daily life involve with all such kind of interface, all electronic and unlogical, but they are so used to. The Sony NEX is not more complicate than many cellphones. Its compact design also makes some mechanical design not possible, and electronic menu is cheaper on cost, so I assume part of NEX's agreessive price policy made possible with the less costly electroic user interface and control, I think it is more or less target to a market than most of its user use only so called "intellegent mode" and JPEG only. Professional user demand a lot, very few camera ever satisfy them, but then, sometimes professional is professional because they can produce good images regardless the camera (or even cellphone camera), like or hate. The NEX is a nice concept as MR put it, a concept biult on both still and motion pictures. plus it is rather inexpensive.
Regards, K
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As it is it's a B movie with C Listers, and serious users will have "seen enough" and hit the exit in the first 10 minutes ;-)
Maybe true, Barry. But your A200 is not going to set the "A-listers" on fire either, right ?
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A lot of Japanese consumer, and younger consumer, and female consumer, does like the statement of small and compact, and their daily life involve with all such kind of interface, all electronic and unlogical, but they are so used to.
And the advertising I have seen for both Micro Four Thirds and NEX seems to heavily target those
"Japanese ... younger .... female ... consumers".
Which is what makes it amusing to read so many forum posts predicting that the next step to be models that address the tastes of
"Western ... older ... male ... very serious photographers"
or complaining that current models do not fit the needs of the latter demographic.
The same forum posters who _still_ expect that APS-C format DSLRs will be killed off by 35mm format DSLR's, I suppose.
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I use GF-1 and just got a NEX5 with the 16mm. Apart from its true performance, I might just want to add that the NEX is a product of market demand, studied by whoever. LL is a forum heavily influenced by mindset of westerners, which is also a large market, but not the only major market. A lot of Japanese consumer, and younger consumer, and female consumer, does like the statement of small and compact, and their daily life involve with all such kind of interface, all electronic and unlogical, but they are so used to. The Sony NEX is not more complicate than many cellphones. Its compact design also makes some mechanical design not possible, and electronic menu is cheaper on cost, so I assume part of NEX's agreessive price policy made possible with the less costly electroic user interface and control, I think it is more or less target to a market than most of its user use only so called "intellegent mode" and JPEG only. Professional user demand a lot, very few camera ever satisfy them, but then, sometimes professional is professional because they can produce good images regardless the camera (or even cellphone camera), like or hate. The NEX is a nice concept as MR put it, a concept biult on both still and motion pictures. plus it is rather inexpensive.
Regards, K
Well Khun K.. You may have hit the nail on the proverbial head so to speak. I was one of the first 100 to receive their NEX-5 in Thailand and I'm loving it.. except the software. The Sony software was written for those in search of low hanging fruit who don't really expect to find any.
After decades spent in Asia I do appreciate the the differences in interfaces.. so maybe that influence helps me enjoy the NEX-5. I love my DSLR's (1 series Canon's) for real work, but for casual candids, shots while out with friends, and something to always carry while out the NEX-5 is working out well.. and the interface I'm finding makes more sense the more I use it. I still wish for a way to make the text (aperture/ISO/shutter speed) on the LCD larger.. but over all it's a very easy camera to use and the articulating LCD makes candids possible in a society increasingly resistant to having their picture taken. A few years ago it wasn't that way.. but it sure is now. At least in greater Bangkok.
I think the image quality suffers greatly because of the lack of software support in LR3 and ACR or C1pro.. I can't wait for the updates. The 18-55mm OS lens is great.. feels precision like no other, and is easily the equal of all but the top 2-3 mid-range zooms out there. I hope the 16mm is released soon.. and extra batteries. I'll never understand the Thai marketing of bringing out the accessories MONTHS after the release of the camera.. especially when we know the real money to the retailers is in the accessories. This thing eats batteries, mostly because you're so tempted to play with the different modes, movies, use the rear LCD more, etc. Memory sticks suck (Thank's Sony), especially the slow 'free' one they gave us during the promotion. I have a Sandisk Extreme 32g on the way.. Should be great for movies.
But lets not get into the phones please. I picked up an HTC Desire the other day.. I suppose I'll be forced to read the book soon..
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Maybe true, Barry. But your A200 is not going to set the "A-listers" on fire either, right ?
I'm not in the habit of offloading gifts from people. As it happens at least you can get to the ISO setting quickly on that model..el cheapo or not.
So unless you want to start a debate about "yes it matters" again (groan) Maybe we'll stick to the points raised. You could mock my cheap equipment if you like, my non premium lenses or my lower end flashguns... but I'm a lot more interested in the results I get. BTW I mostly use my dated but still good Km5d.
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There really isn't a lot of incentive for A mount users to consider NEX over any other offerings. Limited comparability with A mount lenses, you can't use your flash guns on it either that's the same situation as other brands/ Nothing here that screams "Alpha" at all. Sony didn't really try to pull A mount users in on this one.
The Alpha to NEX adapter allows full aperture control, and that is a considerable advantage over any other system. There is no other make that can change aperture on Alpha lenses when mounted via adapter.
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The Alpha to NEX adapter allows full aperture control, and that is a considerable advantage over any other system. There is no other make that can change aperture on Alpha lenses when mounted via adapter.
True, this adapter allows full electronic communication between the A-mount lens and the E-mount camera, which is a big difference from other run-of-the-mill adapters. I might bite the bullet shortly, just to see how the CZ16-35, 24-70, 70-300G etc performs with it.
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True, this adapter allows full electronic communication between the A-mount lens and the E-mount camera, which is a big difference from other run-of-the-mill adapters. I might bite the bullet shortly, just to see how the CZ16-35, 24-70, 70-300G etc performs with it.
Agreed; with both m4/3 and NEX, retaining lens-body communication for AF, aperture control and such is a significant advantage of using SLR lenses from the "big brother" SLR system. Unfortunately, AF only works for SLR lenses with built-in AF motors, and often not very well even then, with older 4/3 SLR lenses anyway. Let us see how well Sony does at supporting AF on NEX bodies with those newer Alpha mount lenses that have AF motors.
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Agreed; with both m4/3 and NEX, retaining lens-body communication for AF, aperture control and such is a significant advantage of using SLR lenses from the "big brother" SLR system. Unfortunately, AF only works for SLR lenses with built-in AF motors, and often not very well even then, with older 4/3 SLR lenses anyway. Let us see how well Sony does at supporting AF on NEX bodies with those newer Alpha mount lenses that have AF motors.
Yeah, honestly, I don't have any expectations for AF with Alpha lenses on NEX. Even if Sony gets it to work, it'll still be kludgy, and I have a feeling people are expecting more out of this than they should be.
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Most A mount lenses are screw driven and not in lens motors so even if Sony got AF to work on the ones with AF motors in that leaves mostly the new SAM kit lenses or the el cheapo build 30mm and 50mm ones and a few high end lenses that nobody in their right mind would want to use on a NEX body (70-200mm f2.8, 70-300mm G etc etc)
That on it's own isn't a deal killer..yes it's correct the aperture control is mechanical via the body. But with no hot shoe you can't even use your flashguns with them either.
Back to the expecting too much part yes I expected something with great handling and design. Sony are clearly not the company to look at for these requirements. It's all dumbed down with Sony at the moment that on it's own is a huge turn off. Never mind smile detection or sweep panorama (nice as they are) why can't they work out how to set Auto ISO to the user's choice? Back to basics for Sony as they seem to miss the obvious stuff.
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That on it's own isn't a deal killer..yes it's correct the aperture control is mechanical via the body. But with no hot shoe you can't even use your flashguns with them either.
Well, the hotshoe simply won't fit in such a small narrow body, right ? And even if it fits, the entire body weighs less than 300gms and if someone were to mount the F58AM etc., it would snap right off. But going by the fact that the newly announced NEX camcorder, does have an A-mount hotshoe and an EVF etc., the expected NEX7 will almost certainly have both of these.
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i just bought spontaneously in LA the nex-5, after trying it out just for fun in a sony shop . what i thought which is great is the so easy t handle override function of the af, you just touch the manual focus ring and the camera jumps in 7x magnification to see the manual sharpness.
now i read here in the net some comments abut the camera and its funny,-
my two friends from bangkok, steve w and khun k both have bought the nex5 too. funny coincidence ....
( greetings to you both )
ordered today a m lense adapter on bay and cant wait to use my old 35 and 90 m lenses with the nex5.
i will add a vogtlander 24mm and maybe a 50 and i think thats a really nice small camera pack,
i cant see an alternative at similar size ( with 1080i video ).
i also leave the camera usually in A, exp. compensation is at hand with one knob assigned to it, so the only thing which should be easier here is the iso,
but as steve said its not very far away either with two clicks. very god the one button video recording. wait for LR/ACR support too, of course.
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i just bought spontaneously in LA the nex-5, after trying it out just for fun in a sony shop . what i thought which is great is the so easy t handle override function of the af, you just touch the manual focus ring and the camera jumps in 7x magnification to see the manual sharpness.
now i read here in the net some comments abut the camera and its funny,-
my two friends from bangkok, steve w and khun k both have bought the nex5 too. funny coincidence ....
( greetings to you both )
ordered today a m lense adapter on bay and cant wait to use my old 35 and 90 m lenses with the nex5.
i will add a vogtlander 24mm and maybe a 50 and i think thats a really nice small camera pack,
i cant see an alternative at similar size ( with 1080i video ).
i also leave the camera usually in A, exp. compensation is at hand with one knob assigned to it, so the only thing which should be easier here is the iso,
but as steve said its not very far away either with two clicks. very god the one button video recording. wait for LR/ACR support too, of course.
LOL! Good to read your post Rainer. Long time no see.
I recently received the 16mm and am quite pleased for what the package is.. no complaints here other than the small text on the LCD and that we're still waiting for LR3/ACR/C1pro to support the raws.
Perhaps the most difficult feature of the NEX-5 is deciding if I'm going to make a short video, a sweep pano, in-camera HDR, or whatever.. Oh.. and I had a hard time finding it today in the rear seat.. slipped down between some seat cushions.. that NEVER happens with my 1d series bodies..
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LOL! Good to read your post Rainer. Long time no see.
I recently received the 16mm and am quite pleased for what the package is.. no complaints here other than the small text on the LCD and that we're still waiting for LR3/ACR/C1pro to support the raws.
Perhaps the most difficult feature of the NEX-5 is deciding if I'm going to make a short video, a sweep pano, in-camera HDR, or whatever.. Oh.. and I had a hard time finding it today in the rear seat.. slipped down between some seat cushions.. that NEVER happens with my 1d series bodies..
i bought it with the 16mm, too. think i will pass the zooms.
i have made so many thousand of images with p+s zoom cameras ( images i never used for nearly nothing ) so its not a big miss to snap a bit more concentrated ....
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Are we missing like the last 2-3 posts after the forum conversion in this thread?