Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: SecondFocus on May 20, 2010, 01:00:56 pm
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[attachment=22082:RZ33.jpg]
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[attachment=22082:RZ33.jpg]
I like how Mac group continues to try to convince us that products that have been on the market for years are somehow new. In this case a Leaf Aptus II 7 with a new logo mounted to a an RZ Pro IID.
I'm not saying its not a great product, because its a fantastic product (and hopefully at a great bundle price!), but unless there's some special sauce in there that i dont know about its just not new.
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"The legend reborn" huh? I'd say it's reborn if they delivered a full frame 6x7 back for it. It can be 22 mpix. And making it more versatile with a faster shutter speed would be nice, at least 1/800.
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"The legend reborn" huh? I'd say it's reborn if they delivered a full frame 6x7 back for it. It can be 22 mpix. And making it more versatile with a faster shutter speed would be nice, at least 1/800.
A 22 mpix full 6x7 back can probably be done...if you don't mind paying $10,000 per mpix. That's a serious guesstimate/extrapolation.
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If this is only a Leaf 33 on a RZ digital..... well then I've missed the re-born part!
am
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I still want it.
but if the MFDB isn't 6x7, it's it a waste on a rz67?
just get a 645 and get AF with it.
when I clicked on it, I thought it was a rz67 pro III and I was hoping that would make pro II's cheaper on ebay so I could get one.
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I still want it.
Well, you could've bought it like, 5000000 years ago.
I'd actually prefer the RZ ProII with a non-electronic adapter. You can mount more backs on the non-D body than you can on the IID body...
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I'll 2nd a vote(hopeful vote that is), that its a 6x7 sensor, but you never know....
and if its bundled with a rzIII body, it'll make the II bodies cheaper on ebay
-Dan
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"The legend reborn" huh? I'd say it's reborn if they delivered a full frame 6x7 back for it. It can be 22 mpix. And making it more versatile with a faster shutter speed would be nice, at least 1/800.
IMO there will never be another 22MP digital back. It makes no sense from a marketing standpoint and from an engineering standpoint, if 22MP were spread out over a 645 or larger sensor, the size of the photosites might prove challenging in terms of obtainable the desired image quality. Why anyway? Why would medium format produce a product with lower megapixels than 35mm? The most prominent irrefutable advantage of medium format (is and has always been) image quality and size of imager. While I expect medium format to make improvements in usability and advanced features (auto focus technology, high ISO, Live Video, in camera processing, etc), I don't expect it will ever match 35mm in that regard (it never has). So, it will never happen regardless of the often stated preference that 22MP is enough. And 35mm will follow suit, going past 22MP and not looking back.
However, if a 90MP or so sensor does come out late this year or early next at whatever sensor size, if it is a Phase One product, I would expect that it would offer Sensor Plus. So shooting in Sensor Plus mode might mean about a 22-24 megapixel file. That could be what many have asked for - a large sensor shooting about 22MP (or as an option, shooting 90MP). A good quality, manageable file size, but over a larger imaging area.
But I don't see anyone coming out with a 22MP product that is 645 or larger in sensor area as the only available megapixel for that product. This is where I see the Sensor Plus technology as extremely relevant because as sensor sizes do increase, it is definite that megapixel counts will also continue to increase. But a 90MP or even 120MP product that doesn't allow an option to shoot at a lower resolution will have a much lower market demand.
Steve Hendrix
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While I expect medium format to make improvements in usability and advanced features (auto focus technology, high ISO, Live Video, in camera processing, etc), I don't expect it will ever match 35mm in that regard (it never has). So, it will never happen regardless of the often stated preference that 22MP is enough. And 35mm will follow suit, going past 22MP and not looking back.
Steve Hendrix
As far as I'm concerned we are still living in the past when it comes to still cameras and this package illustrates that.
I'd love to see the things you just wrote (sorry for the edit) come true, but the big question is when?
On a day when Pentax offers a $8,000 40mp autofocus camera and RED is (maybe) just a few inches away from a 5k, 13.5 stop dsmc camera for $28,000, I look at this RZ/Leaf/Mamiya/Phase and wonder if this is really something the market is asking for or is it just clearing stock?
Now it would be semi attractive if it was the price of the Pentax, mainly because it will tether and does have a service group behind it, but not knowing the price, I would bet it's somewhere between the Pentax and the RED.
Given the fact that there is no real wide angle option for a 645 frame on an RZ kinds of looses it's umph and I don't use wide angles often, but every now and then you need them.
Anyway, you had me a 6x7, you lost me when I saw the painted on logo, a less than 645 frame and knowing that it will still have a lcd that is the equivalent of a 2002 T-mobile phone.
I really think the part of the package price of any medium format back should be a unibody powerbook, or Imac dedicated as the "camera, lcd". I'm sure someone could put a Phase or Mamiya sticker over the Apple logo.
Not to take this off topic, though since this thread started life displaying a sales message, I guess another sales message is on point. I look at the RED site on the Epic and in my mind believe this is where the professional world is going. Actually believe that RED has the ability to pass everyone until I try to understand how/what it takes to buy one of these things and realize I'll never understand their process.
That Jim Jannard guy is smart, has a lot of smart people around him though you kind of wonder what they hell they're thinking when they make it this difficult to buy a camera and go use it.
[attachment=22122:epic.jpg]
BC
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As far as I'm concerned we are still living in the past when it comes to still cameras and this package illustrates that.
I'd love to see the things you just wrote (sorry for the edit) come true, but the big question is when?
On a day when Pentax offers a $8,000 40mp autofocus camera and RED is (maybe) just a few inches away from a 5k, 13.5 stop dsmc camera for $28,000, I look at this RZ/Leaf/Mamiya/Phase and wonder if this is really something the market is asking for or is it just clearing stock?
Now it would be semi attractive if it was the price of the Pentax, mainly because it will tether and does have a service group behind it, but not knowing the price, I would bet it's somewhere between the Pentax and the RED.
Given the fact that there is no real wide angle option for a 645 frame on an RZ kinds of looses it's umph and I don't use wide angles often, but every now and then you need them.
Anyway, you had me a 6x7, you lost me when I saw the painted on logo, a less than 645 frame and knowing that it will still have a lcd that is the equivalent of a 2002 T-mobile phone.
I really think the part of the package price of any medium format back should be a unibody powerbook, or Imac dedicated as the "camera, lcd". I'm sure someone could put a Phase or Mamiya sticker over the Apple logo.
Not to take this off topic, though since this thread started life displaying a sales message, I guess another sales message is on point. I look at the RED site on the Epic and in my mind believe this is where the professional world is going. Actually believe that RED has the ability to pass everyone until I try to understand how/what it takes to buy one of these things and realize I'll never understand their process.
That Jim Jannard guy is smart, has a lot of smart people around him though you kind of wonder what they hell they're thinking when they make it this difficult to buy a camera and go use it.
[attachment=22122:epic.jpg]
BC
This is only an attempt by Mamiya America Corporation (MAC Group) which had long been the USA distributor for Leaf products (but who is no longer) to maximize the Mamiya brand by marketing these 2 separate products as a new Mamiya RZ Digital Camera (which it is not).
There is certainly some interest in a digital 6x7 camera, as you indicated as well, but there is nothing new about this that didn't exist 3-4 years ago. And I agree, 645 on a 6x7 is not hot.
Steve Hendrix
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Steve, by pointing out that it could be 22mp, I wanted to stress what for me would be important in a product that is supposed to give RZ a new life . What I'd expect from a 'reborn' RZ bundle would be a back with sensor size matching the camera format - that's for starters. Some new features of the RZ body would be nice too (for instance faster shutter speeds, control of long times of exposure, better focusing screen as a default etc etc).
As for the improvement of the digital backs, until recently, most of the things we have seen for last few years was mpix battle. A great progress was made in terms of resolution while all the other things (displays, shooting rates, ISO, live view) are far far behind. I'm not a technician so I can't grasp the idea of how complex and costly it would be to make a GREAT development in aforementioned areas, but it's obvious that creating bigger and bigger sensors (with growing resolution) is the easiest and safest way of development. Unfortunately this path doesn't necessarily go along with the needs of customers. I may be wrong but my impression is that people responsible for MFDB development have the attitude like "hey, let's throw 20 more mpix, few fireworks which doesn't solve any of the main MFDB problems and let the marketing guys fool everyone that our new back is a significant step forward". I think that for a vast majority 40 mpix for a single frame is enough. If 40 mpix is not enough (even though it doesnt matter how you look at it- it probably is for most applications), you can stitch. And hearing about a 90 mpix, 120 mpix, 3800 mpix backs makes me smile. I wonder if we are going to get a Phase One 120 mpix digital back with the same old LCD display. I wouldn't be surprised
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I'm completly out of topic, but these Red cameras...
First Michael pointing months ago that they will completly change the game,
Now a post from B.C here saying about the same,
I would like to understand. I think I'm missing the party there.
(but yes, out of topic).
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Steve, by pointing out that it could be 22mp, I wanted to stress what for me would be important in a product that is supposed to give RZ a new life . What I'd expect from a 'reborn' RZ bundle would be a back with sensor size matching the camera format - that's for starters. Some new features of the RZ body would be nice too (for instance faster shutter speeds, control of long times of exposure, better focusing screen as a default etc etc).
As for the improvement of the digital backs, until recently, most of the things we have seen for last few years was mpix battle. A great progress was made in terms of resolution while all the other things (displays, shooting rates, ISO, live view) are far far behind. I'm not a technician so I can't grasp the idea of how complex and costly it would be to make a GREAT development in aforementioned areas, but it's obvious that creating bigger and bigger sensors (with growing resolution) is the easiest and safest way of development. Unfortunately this path doesn't necessarily go along with the needs of customers. I may be wrong but my impression is that people responsible for MFDB development have the attitude like "hey, let's throw 20 more mpix, few fireworks which doesn't solve any of the main MFDB problems and let the marketing guys fool everyone that our new back is a significant step forward". I think that for a vast majority 40 mpix for a single frame is enough. If 40 mpix is not enough (even though it doesnt matter how you look at it- it probably is for most applications), you can stitch. And hearing about a 90 mpix, 120 mpix, 3800 mpix backs makes me smile. I wonder if we are going to get a Phase One 120 mpix digital back with the same old LCD display. I wouldn't be surprised
Yes, I understand, I'm just saying it would not be 22MP (except in a Sensor Plus mode). I do not believe that the attitude you describe is accurate. The attitude we as dealers and our clients receive sometimes comes across that way (and that's a problem). But internally, I believe they are putting out what they can that is available to them. If Live View on CCD sensors was available or even possible, it would be here, no question. But it's not. So I think it's more a situation of they will release a product within 12 months. What features will they be able to put into that product within that time frame from the list of all the features they are working on. I think that is reality. But they do a poor job of communicating that and it gets lost in the marketing message they use to sell the features that they were able to implement.
Hey - don't get me wrong, I'm on your side. Believe me, I want as many desired features as possible, all of it, great LCD, shooting rate, Live Video, in camera functions, everything. I just have a different perspective of their motivations and strategies.
Re: the LCD, wouldn't surprise me either, on the one hand. On the other, I don't expect we'll see the same one. We'll see.
Steve Hendrix
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You also have to remember that the MFDB makers do not have chip foundries or do basic CCD R&D; they depend on whatever Kodak and Dalsa come up with. (This is where Canon and Sony have a distinct advantage in the 35mm DSLR scene).
So there's only so much that the MFDB designers can do to achieve "better high ISO performance", for example: that requires higher signal-to-noise at low counts, but microlenses & quantum efficiency (on the signal side), and readout noise & thermal noise (on the noise side), are all fundamentally limited by properties of the raw CCD chip.
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Would love to testdrive a larger back but I'm afraid it will be a long time.
The mf is already small, let alone the 6x7 format.
I do think we will see a full frame 645 before that, the aptus2-10 is already close.
Would also love that.
After that it will be a matter of, IF the 6x7 can also be used on the 645 I will never spend that amount of money on a one camera solution.
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i am not sure we will ever see a real mf back....dmf has been around for a while and the products are more or less mature and the marketshare is getting smaller and smaller......other solutions are nibbling away at what used to be high end photo....dslrs, red.....if there were 6x7 or 8 backs out today, a lot of people who turned their backs might still shoot dmf....or maybe not.....the podas crowd probably does not want an RZ with a huge sensor.....
not sure if i can make it to samys tomorrow but i would probably be disappointed anyway.....the back is nice....a good size, good mpix, fast, nice tones...the RZ is what it is and can be great with obvious limitations......the biggest problem with a digital rz kit is the tunnelvision waiting every time one looks through it.....i used it for years and finally gave up on it.....
the only way this is interesting is if they somehow changed the finder to make it look like you are looking at a 6x7 finder image.....and i am not really interested in the prism finder....if they can do this with a WLF i would be tempted.....
if i want a prism i might as well get the 645 anyway....
i doubt they came up with anything like that.....the other thing is of course that it would have to be around 10000 for this to make any sense at all......they are clearing stock and if there is no improvement on back or body i dont see why this should not be possible......
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......the biggest problem with a digital rz kit is the tunnelvision waiting every time one looks through it.....i used it for years and finally gave up on it.....
Agreed.
That is the most impressive thing about the H4D40 that I held the other day -- that x Viewfinder from Hasselblad magnifies the image, so it tricks you into thinking that it's full frame, and that the H4D60 is actually shipping. It was a very pleasant experience to look thru it, and the LCD is semi-OK as well.
The hangnail for me, with Hasselblad, is how Phocus would tether under pressure, on a laptop. That's where I just get nervous and hang onto the 5DMII, knowing it's rock solid and fast in a commercial context.
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Would love to testdrive a larger back but I'm afraid it will be a long time.
The mf is already small, let alone the 6x7 format.
[...]
I do think we will see a full frame 645 before that, the aptus2-10 is already close.
See also: the P65+. 100% Viewfinder coverage (no mask) on a 645 body is full frame in my book.
After that it will be a matter of, IF the 6x7 can also be used on the 645 I will never spend that amount of money on a one camera solution.
That seems extremely unlikely given the physical restraints involved.
[redacted - misunderstood]
Doug Peterson ()
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I don't see any announcement of this on Hassy's website nor have seen any postings or blogs or calls by anyone who has received one.
Relax, Doug.
Read the first part of the sentence: "tricks the brain into thinking..."
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P65+ looks interesting indeed, now let's hope Leaf comes with something like that
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P65+ looks interesting indeed, now let's hope Leaf comes with something like that
I would be very surprised if Leaf would be allowed by Phase to offer the same 645 sensor that is in the p65.
Even when Leaf was in competition with Phase they went to a 2:3 proportion, not 4:3, maybe because they were selling the afi and that rotating sensor, maybe because Phase has a partial lockdown on that size of sensor from Dalsa, but regardless, I doubt if Phase has any desire to compete with itself.
This is just speculation, but I believe the whole reason on the Leaf acquisition was to move Leaf owners into the Phase lineup. First with tethering and processing in c-1, then later in offering some kind of upgrade scheme to move to a phase.
Also Leaf had a lot of experience with the Dalsa side of things, even cmos so maybe they will use those resources in R+D.
Personally I would like to see it move the other way, with Phase moving their customers to Leaf as the premium brand, mainly due to Leaf's touch screen interface system. If Leaf could get Phase reliability and move the battery away from the firewire cord, if Phase had Leaf's touch screen and color experience then you'd have a nice product.
Anyway, this is just all a guess and I doubt seriously if any of the decision makers are gonna tell us much.
BC
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QUOTE (dougpetersonci @ May 24 2010, 07:59 PM)
I don't see any announcement of this on Hassy's website nor have seen any postings or blogs or calls by anyone who has received one.
Relax, Doug.
Read the first part of the sentence: "tricks the brain into thinking..."
Doug, your jumpy today. Don't worry you guys are the only $45,000 camera in the land except I just read that the new Pentax is $830,000 so maybe that's the most expensive.
Oh shit, sorry that's 830,000 yen not dollars, uh let me figure this out . . . yen to dollars means the pentax will sell for . . . uh oh.
BC