Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: baudolino on May 11, 2010, 03:45:56 pm
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I recently had an experience with the Hy6 kit and Sinar in Switzerland that might be of interest. It provides an example of how smaller European companies do business - I am told this is significantly different than the larger corporate entities in the United States.
A bit of background - I bought an ex-demo Sinar Hy6 kit with 3 lenses from a dealer here in Prague, to complement my eMotion 75LV back that I had used previously with my Contax. However, I had a problem with the Hy6 body (damaged contact in the bayonet). I talked to my dealer who offered to have the camera shipped to Zurich for repair.
Given that this would have taken some time (involving customs etc) I was happy to make the 1 hour flight to Zurich myself, with the camera and the lenses, if Sinar were ready to fix the camera on the same day. Sinar responded through my dealer that yes, they were happy to fix my camera "while I waited" and, at the same time, upgrade the firmware to version 3.10. Now, the upgrade to version 3.10 involves not just a new software download but also some mechanical adjustments to the camera's AF system (this is why you can't do it yourself). When I arrived in Zurich, the Sinar sales rep (Helga Frorath) awaited me at the airport and took me to the factory in her car. I handed the camera over to a service technician who quickly identified the problem with the bayonet (one of the pins remained recessed after I mounted the lens) - he fixed this, upgraded the firmware, calibrated the AF system with all three of my lenses on an optical bench and printed a little certificate with suggested focus micro-adjustment values for each lens (the focus micro adjustment is available in the camera menu if you have version firmware 3.10). The technician also tightened the grip and cleaned the camera. This was all done while Ms. Frorath took me to lunch and showed me around the factory. I hopped on a plane back to Prague in late afternoon. All in all, a perfect service from the dealer and from Sinar, I was impressed.
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I recently had an experience with the Hy6 kit and Sinar in Switzerland that might be of interest. It provides an example of how smaller European companies do business - I am told this is significantly different than the larger corporate entities in the United States.
A bit of background - I bought an ex-demo Sinar Hy6 kit with 3 lenses from a dealer here in Prague, to complement my eMotion 75LV back that I had used previously with my Contax. However, I had a problem with the Hy6 body (damaged contact in the bayonet). I talked to my dealer who offered to have the camera shipped to Zurich for repair.
Given that this would have taken some time (involving customs etc) I was happy to make the 1 hour flight to Zurich myself, with the camera and the lenses, if Sinar were ready to fix the camera on the same day. Sinar responded through my dealer that yes, they were happy to fix my camera "while I waited" and, at the same time, upgrade the firmware to version 3.10. Now, the upgrade to version 3.10 involves not just a new software download but also some mechanical adjustments to the camera's AF system (this is why you can't do it yourself). When I arrived in Zurich, the Sinar sales rep (Helga Frorath) awaited me at the airport and took me to the factory in her car. I handed the camera over to a service technician who quickly identified the problem with the bayonet (one of the pins remained recessed after I mounted the lens) - he fixed this, upgraded the firmware, calibrated the AF system with all three of my lenses on an optical bench and printed a little certificate with suggested focus micro-adjustment values for each lens (the focus micro adjustment is available in the camera menu if you have version firmware 3.10). The technician also tightened the grip and cleaned the camera. This was all done while Ms. Frorath took me to lunch and showed me around the factory. I hopped on a plane back to Prague in late afternoon. All in all, a perfect service from the dealer and from Sinar, I was impressed.
I am too!
Well, got the Contax, just saving for the back now. Nothing decided so far. I had the chance 2 months ago to get some Sinar files and was very pleased by what I saw.
In terms of "style" (here my english fails and do not know how to explain) they are what I like most.
Indeed, Sinar is worth of consideration, and even more after your post.
Cheers.
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I have also had that sort of an experience here in the US with my dealer Jack Strobel/Calumet and the US Distributor Bron Imaging.
Greg King and his team @ Bron Imaging (Colin King,Dave McRitchie & Salomon) have taken care of a recent warranty issue in a very professional manner.
I was a little concerned about the state of service and warranty issues since the US distributor Sinar Bron had changed to Bron Imaging.
Happy to report the same great and professional service that I have received for the past 2.5 years using the eMotion 75 LV's
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rather impressive, to say the least.
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I'm really happy reading the multitude of Sinar praising mails. Unfortunatelly I can't join you. I have a Mamiya 645AFDII with a 54LV back which is fine -- if working. The back had some problems and the main issue was that the camera lost the back after some exposures (between 5 and 45, randomly) and the only remedy was to reboot the DB (takes about 15 seconds!). The issue was repeated on other AFDII-s so I sent the DB back to Sinar. The DB spent 3 months with Sinar, they fixed all the problems except the main one. The camera still looses the DB after some exposures. In the meantime I had very scarce information on the repair process, the Hungarian Sinar rep pushed them time and again with not too much success. Providing a replacement unit for the repair time didn't even occured. I'm a great Sinar fan (see my nickname :-) but this comes from large format cameras. They're perfect and undestroyeable.
Best regards
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I'm really happy reading the multitude of Sinar praising mails. Unfortunatelly I can't join you. I have a Mamiya 645AFDII with a 54LV back which is fine -- if working. The back had some problems and the main issue was that the camera lost the back after some exposures (between 5 and 45, randomly) and the only remedy was to reboot the DB (takes about 15 seconds!). The issue was repeated on other AFDII-s so I sent the DB back to Sinar. The DB spent 3 months with Sinar, they fixed all the problems except the main one. The camera still looses the DB after some exposures. In the meantime I had very scarce information on the repair process, the Hungarian Sinar rep pushed them time and again with not too much success. Providing a replacement unit for the repair time didn't even occured. I'm a great Sinar fan (see my nickname :-) but this comes from large format cameras. They're perfect and undestroyeable.
Best regards
I am sorry for your problems and the huge delays. This is not supposed to be the standard duration for processing customer problems. I talked to the Sinar Support and they told me that you will be contacted soon by your Sinar rep to find a satisfying solution.
Martin
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baudolino, that's impressive and good news. Are there any impressions and/or comments that you can relate from your factory visit?
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Another vote for Sinar in Zurich and Salomon in New York. Immaculate Hy6 service. You can still feel confident buying this camera. They really stand behind their products and services.
If Sinar would have distributed Rollei world wide starting with the SLX/6000 series, Rollei wouldn't have had to go under. This is the type of service that inspires brand loyalty.
I certainly recommend Sinar service for anybody looking for a new investment.
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baudolino, that's impressive and good news. Are there any impressions and/or comments that you can relate from your factory visit?
Hi,
You asked about my impressions from the factory visit:
(1) They are trying to do a lot with just about 30 people which is what I understand is the entire team following the buyout from Jenoptik and last year's restructuring. This has significantly reduced their cost base and allowed them to operate efficiently but they also may be a little resource-constrained right now to make any major steps in any area (just my impression).
(2) They are selling from existing stock (as far as Hy6 and the digibacks are concerned) and actually had encouraging sales for the past 6 months or so, which has allowed them to stabilize the business.
(3) Even though they are a "system integrator" rather than a manufacturer as far as Hy6 and the digibacks are concerned, I've had no problems ordering extra batteries and lenshoods (both arrived through my dealer last week, about 3-4 weeks from when I placed the order). My dealer has also steadfastly maintained that there are no problems ordering anything. Having said that, not everything is in stock all the time (e.g. the remote releases currently seem to be unavailable).
By the way, if you want a better battery charger than what comes with the Sinar digibacks and the Hy6, order this:
http://www.hahnel.ie/contentFiles/products...A4-09-04-10.pdf (http://www.hahnel.ie/contentFiles/products/pdfs/brochures/ULTIMA%20II%20A4-09-04-10.pdf)
The version for "Sony digital cameras" includes an adapter plate that charges the Varta/Sinar/Pisen batteries - it is much smaller (no large heavy transformer), way cheaper and much faster charging than the contraption that Sinar packs with the backs and the Hy6. This is my discovery, after a lot of research :-)
(4) I specifically asked about the 6x6 film back and the info that Pascal has mentioned on his website (that it is being planned for production by DHW Fototechnik and should perhaps be introduced later this year at Photokina), well the Sinar guys were not so sure.... which would be pity since I would be queing to buy one..
(5) There may be an effort under way to develop a new raw conversion software (perhaps Captureshop that saves DNGs). I am not sure that I understood 100% so do take this info with a pinch of salt. I understood that eXposure was a Jenoptik product whereas Captureshop was an original Sinar product, this is why they had to run both s/w suites in parallel when Jenoptik was making the backs. A lot of the software effort has however recently been spent on fixing bugs introduced by Apple in subsequent releases of the OS (or the hardware? I recall something about the firewire port....). I was also told that an older, unsupported but fully functional version of eXposure for Windows could be obtained from Sinar (I don't need it, so did not follow up).
Side note (forgive me if I ramble too much...): I understood they had tried to involve Stefan Hess (the author of the Brumbaer utilities) in developing the software but he was not interested in doing this commercially. I suggested they talk to the gentleman behind Iridient Raw Developer and try to build on his pretty robust program that already reads the Sinar eMotion raw files (and also DNGs..). Not only that, the Raw Developer of course converts all sorts of other existing raw formats - if I look at what Hasselblad is now doing with Phocus (adding support for other pro camera raw files so that you can stay in one editing environment when you shoot with different cameras - just like you can when you shoot with a PhaseOne back and edit in C1), it would seem logical to me for Sinar to stop developing their own software from the scratch but rather team up with one of the established but second-tier players who are gradually getting sidelined due to the recent advances in Lightroom, Aperture and C1. Maybe RawDev, maybe Bibble - this is the way I would go to quickly get on par with what the competition offers in terms of workflow. Because, in my view, the Sinar hardware is excellent, the files are beautiful, just the software is not so great (which is maybe because I haven't spent enough time with eXposure for it to become my friend, as on of the members here pointed out :-))-
(6) They seem to be working on new products but of course I could not get more info... :-) but it sounded encouraging and contrary to my earlier impression that the system was a dead end (which I had of course gained by reading too much on the internet :-) ).
Regards,
Martin
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Does anyone know where I can get plus diopters for the Hy6, both WLF and 45 degree?
Two dealers have tried for me with no avail. I'm essentially shooting blind, using autofocus and hoping for the best.
Best,
Mitchell
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Hi,
You asked about my impressions from the factory visit:
---- 8< snipped! ----
Thanks for the account and writeup, baudolino!
Jason
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Does anyone know where I can get plus diopters for the Hy6, both WLF and 45 degree?
Two dealers have tried for me with no avail. I'm essentially shooting blind, using autofocus and hoping for the best.
Best,
Mitchell
Hi Mitchell, suggest you try direct with DHW Fototechnik in Braunschweig and contact Reiner Schönrock. See contact details on my web pages if you do not have them.
Pascal
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I recently had an experience with the Hy6 kit and Sinar in Switzerland that might be of interest. It provides an example of how smaller European companies do business - I am told this is significantly different than the larger corporate entities in the United States.
Very impressive and excellent customer service indeed. Sinar should be applauded for this, as it is regrettably rather exceptional these days. I am happy to hear confirmation that they do stand fully behind their product. Actually, I would have choosen the Sinar eSprit 65 over the Leaf AFi-II 7 if only it had at least the same sensor size (and thus less lens crop) as the Leaf. That, and the fact that the camera/back cannot be switched on via the camera only, made me finally opt for the Leaf. But in terms of support, at least Sinar actively pursues the Hy6 line of business, which is why I would have wished to be able to go that route.
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Very impressive and excellent customer service indeed. Sinar should be applauded for this, as it is regrettably rather exceptional these days. I am happy to hear confirmation that they do stand fully behind their product. Actually, I would have choosen the Sinar eSprit 65 over the Leaf AFi-II 7 if only it had at least the same sensor size (and thus less lens crop) as the Leaf. That, and the fact that the camera/back cannot be switched on via the camera only, made me finally opt for the Leaf. But in terms of support, at least Sinar actively pursues the Hy6 line of business, which is why I would have wished to be able to go that route.
The Leaf AFi-II 7 is a nice camera and back. Congratulation to your choice. But I'd like to correct the fact that it is indeed possible to switch on the whole camera / back combination when using the eSprit 65 with a Hy6. It works in the same way as with the AFi. You switch on the camera, the back switches on at the same time. You switch off the Hy6, the back switches off as well.
Martin
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But in terms of support, at least Sinar actively pursues the Hy6 line of business, which is why I would have wished to be able to go that route.
Pascal,
Leaf Imaging announced that from 10 May 2010 they were supporting all current and legacy leaf backs, and the Afi, those both in and out of warranty. Nothing so far about further development of the Afi system, however.
Philip
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Pascal,
Leaf Imaging announced that from 10 May 2010 they were supporting all current and legacy leaf backs, and the Afi, those both in and out of warranty. Nothing so far about further development of the Afi system, however.
Philip
Hi Philip, yes I am fully aware of that announcement and it is good news as it clarifies things somewhat in terms of service and support. What I meant, however, was future development, and full commitment, of the Hy6 system.
Pascal
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The Leaf AFi-II 7 is a nice camera and back. Congratulation to your choice. But I'd like to correct the fact that it is indeed possible to switch on the whole camera / back combination when using the eSprit 65 with a Hy6. It works in the same way as with the AFi. You switch on the camera, the back switches on at the same time. You switch off the Hy6, the back switches off as well.
Martin
Hello Martin, I am really surprised now as this was a very specific question I had asked to the Sinar importer in Austria (MSM in Salzburg). The reply was that the back only switched on automatically when pressing the camera release button on condition that the camera's main switch is already turned on (stand-by mode). Otherwise, it was specifically said that both the camera body and the back needed to be switched on (in contrast to the Leaf AFi). I am very sorry to hear that I was misinformed as that would have taken away a major issue when considering the Sinar eSprit back.
Pascal
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Hello Martin, I am really surprised now as this was a very specific question I had asked to the Sinar importer in Austria (MSM in Salzburg). The reply was that the back only switched on automatically when pressing the camera release button on condition that the camera's main switch is already turned on (stand-by mode). Otherwise, it was specifically said that both the camera body and the back needed to be switched on (in contrast to the Leaf AFi). I am very sorry to hear that I was misinformed as that would have taken away a major issue when considering the Sinar eSprit back.
Pascal
Important edit: The statement below is only valid for a Hy6 65, please see this post http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....st&p=366364 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?s=&showtopic=43579&view=findpost&p=366364)
The MSM description is not wrong. The Hy6 / AFi don't switch immediately on if you move the power switch from OFF to ON. You first need to press the release button half way. Thus the camera turns on. An attached back, either a Leaf Aptus or a Sinar eSprit will be turned on automatically by the camera.
Martin
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The MSM description is not wrong. The Hy6 / AFi don't switch immediately on if you move the power switch from OFF to ON. You first need to press the release button half way. Thus the camera turns on. An attached back, either a Leaf Aptus or a Sinar eSprit will be turned on automatically by the camera.
Martin
Dear Martin,
thank you for the further clarification. So, I understand that there is really no difference between Sinar eSprit and Leaf AFi backs in this respect? (Strange, because I had also heard from other users that the eSprit was less integrated than the AFi). If so, I regret that this was not told to me clearly beforehand.
Pascal
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The MSM description is not wrong. The Hy6 / AFi don't switch immediately on if you move the power switch from OFF to ON. You first need to press the release button half way. Thus the camera turns on. An attached back, either a Leaf Aptus or a Sinar eSprit will be turned on automatically by the camera.
Martin
For further information, let me quote from MSM (in German), which is what mislead me:
" Technische Verwendung: Der Back wird immer extra eingeschaltet. Sowohl im Back wie auch in der Kamera ist ein Akku.
Dadurch, dass der Sinarback an vielen Kameras mittels Adapterplatte angedockt wird, ist nur eine Lösung mit eigener Stromversorgung möglich.
Beim eSpritback ergibt sich ungefähr eine Verlängerung um den Faktor 1,4. "
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For further information, let me quote from MSM (in German), which is what mislead me:
" Technische Verwendung: Der Back wird immer extra eingeschaltet. Sowohl im Back wie auch in der Kamera ist ein Akku.
Dadurch, dass der Sinarback an vielen Kameras mittels Adapterplatte angedockt wird, ist nur eine Lösung mit eigener Stromversorgung möglich.
Beim eSpritback ergibt sich ungefähr eine Verlängerung um den Faktor 1,4. "
All of which argues for seeing these cameras in person, and not relying on written information. Not that the info is bad, bu that the chance for misunderstandings is greater. I just wish Sinar had a stronger presence in the US. Like many European companies, they work well with closer relationships. The distance here, plus whatever difficulties happen with distribution, just make smaller European companies really struggle over here. Too bad, even as the products are good...
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For further information, let me quote from MSM (in German), which is what mislead me:
" Technische Verwendung: Der Back wird immer extra eingeschaltet. Sowohl im Back wie auch in der Kamera ist ein Akku.
Dadurch, dass der Sinarback an vielen Kameras mittels Adapterplatte angedockt wird, ist nur eine Lösung mit eigener Stromversorgung möglich.
Beim eSpritback ergibt sich ungefähr eine Verlängerung um den Faktor 1,4. "
Ok, I need to clarify the topic. There are differences between the generic eSprit 65 and the Hy6 65. For the eSprit 65 I was wrong and your Sinar importer supplied the correct information. If you use the eSprit 65 with the Hy6 adapter plate on a Hy6, the body and the back are two devices, that need an akku each and need to be switched on independently.
If you have an eSprit with an integrated Hy6 adapter plate, namely a "Hy6 65", the integreation of body and back is the same like with the AFi: The back is switched on and off by the body. You don't even need an akku in the back.
I am sorry for the confusion.
Martin
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I recently had an experience with the Hy6 kit and Sinar in Switzerland that might be of interest. It provides an example of how smaller European companies do business - I am told this is significantly different than the larger corporate entities in the United States.
A bit of background - I bought an ex-demo Sinar Hy6 kit with 3 lenses from a dealer here in Prague, to complement my eMotion 75LV back that I had used previously with my Contax. However, I had a problem with the Hy6 body (damaged contact in the bayonet). I talked to my dealer who offered to have the camera shipped to Zurich for repair.
Given that this would have taken some time (involving customs etc) I was happy to make the 1 hour flight to Zurich myself, with the camera and the lenses, if Sinar were ready to fix the camera on the same day. Sinar responded through my dealer that yes, they were happy to fix my camera "while I waited" and, at the same time, upgrade the firmware to version 3.10. Now, the upgrade to version 3.10 involves not just a new software download but also some mechanical adjustments to the camera's AF system (this is why you can't do it yourself). When I arrived in Zurich, the Sinar sales rep (Helga Frorath) awaited me at the airport and took me to the factory in her car. I handed the camera over to a service technician who quickly identified the problem with the bayonet (one of the pins remained recessed after I mounted the lens) - he fixed this, upgraded the firmware, calibrated the AF system with all three of my lenses on an optical bench and printed a little certificate with suggested focus micro-adjustment values for each lens (the focus micro adjustment is available in the camera menu if you have version firmware 3.10). The technician also tightened the grip and cleaned the camera. This was all done while Ms. Frorath took me to lunch and showed me around the factory. I hopped on a plane back to Prague in late afternoon. All in all, a perfect service from the dealer and from Sinar, I was impressed.
I also wanna say best words about Sinar service in Zurich.
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Hi,
You asked about my impressions from the factory visit:
(4) I specifically asked about the 6x6 film back and the info that Pascal has mentioned on his website (that it is being planned for production by DHW Fototechnik and should perhaps be introduced later this year at Photokina), well the Sinar guys were not so sure.... which would be pity since I would be queing to buy one..
Martin
Update on the 6060 film back for Hy6 / AFi: I was in touch with DHW yesterday and it was confirmed that the 6x6 film back is still on track for release at the time of Photokina this year.
Pascal
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Update on the 6060 film back for Hy6 / AFi: I was in touch with DHW yesterday and it was confirmed that the 6x6 film back is still on track for release at the time of Photokina this year.
Pascal
Pascal, that is good news indeed, do you have an email address for DHW where I could send my pre-order?
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Pascal, that is good news indeed, do you have an email address for DHW where I could send my pre-order?
I am also intrested on this 6060 back...
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Update on the 6060 film back for Hy6 / AFi: I was in touch with DHW yesterday and it was confirmed that the 6x6 film back is still on track for release at the time of Photokina this year.
Pascal
This is great news to hear. I'll be hanging onto my film then.
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Pascal, that is good news indeed, do you have an email address for DHW where I could send my pre-order?
Is there any DHW web page?
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Is there any DHW web page?
I don't think they have a website. I found these contact details on the photo.net forum and I tried to call several times (nobody picks up the phone) and I also sent emails (which returned as undeliverable). That is why I asked if Pascal perhaps has more up-to-date contact details.
DHW-Fototechnik GmbH
Hans Hartje
Salzdahlumer Straße 196
38126 Braunschweig
Deutschland
Telefon: 0531/6800348
Fax: 0531/6800295
E-Mail: [email protected]
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http://www.dhw-fototechnik.de/ (http://www.dhw-fototechnik.de/) the page is in working progress and this is the information that can be found on the page. Pascal already mentioned Mr. Schönrock in other thread, so you can contact him as well!
Telefon: +495316800100
DHW-Fototechnik GmbH
Salzdahlumer Strasse 196
38126 Braunschweig
Telefon: +495316800100
Fax: +495316800245
Serviceadministration:+495316800425
Email: m.brauner (at) franke-heidecke.net
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To those having difficulty in contacting DHW Fototechnik via the general hotline I would suggest to contact Reiner Schönrock directly. He is a very cordial man with a longstanding expertise in Rollei products.
General inquiries:
DHW-Fototechnik
Salzdahlumer Straße 196
D-38126 Braunschweig (Germany)
Phone: + 43 (531) 6800100
Fax: +43 (531) 6800295
Service hotline: +43 (531) 6800425 (Monday till Friday between 9:00h and 15:00h)
Email: [email protected]
R. Schönrock's contact details:
Phone: +49 (531) 6800293
Email: r.schoenrock at franke-heidecke.net
Hope this helps.
Pascal
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Does anyone have experience using the 90 degree prism finder on the Hy6? I know that Sinar has one but I haven't read or heard any reviews on it.
If I'm remembering correctly, the original 90 degree finder wasn't up to Sinar standards and they were still working on it, but I don't know if they issues it had were corrected.
Thanks,
Loc
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Does anyone have experience using the 90 degree prism finder on the Hy6? I know that Sinar has one but I haven't read or heard any reviews on it.
If I'm remembering correctly, the original 90 degree finder wasn't up to Sinar standards and they were still working on it, but I don't know if they issues it had were corrected.
Thanks,
Loc
Well, I have this 90 degree finder, but it is not a prism finder like the 45 degree finder, it has a mirror and a tube (telescope). This telescope can be rotated, so one can find the sharpest view of the 6x6 frame easily and there is a scale from -4 to +2 that stands for dioptrics I guess, but obviously the scale on the tube is not printed on the proper place, so my zero point is on about -2 (I don´t need glasses and on Mamiya 645 AFD II I need no correction at all). As this is not a prism finder, the view on the screen is more enlarged then with the 45 degree prism finder and there is a little distortion on the margins of the 6x6 frame. I find this huge, enlarged view of the frame as a benefit and can live with the distortion on the margins. If you shoot from tripod the 45 degree prism finder is much a better choice, but if you like to shoot out of the hand, just like with any dslr or mf camera like habla or phamiya, you have no other choice at this moment, as to take this enlarging 90° mirror finder.
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Well, I have this 90 degree finder, but it is not a prism finder like the 45 degree finder, it has a mirror and a tube (telescope). This telescope can be rotated, so one can find the sharpest view of the 6x6 frame easily and there is a scale from -4 to +2 that stands for dioptrics I guess, but obviously the scale on the tube is not printed on the proper place, so my zero point is on about -2 (I don´t need glasses and on Mamiya 645 AFD II I need no correction at all). As this is not a prism finder, the view on the screen is more enlarged then with the 45 degree prism finder and there is a little distortion on the margins of the 6x6 frame. I find this huge, enlarged view of the frame as a benefit and can live with the distortion on the margins. If you shoot from tripod the 45 degree prism finder is much a better choice, but if you like to shoot out of the hand, just like with any dslr or mf camera like habla or phamiya, you have no other choice at this moment, as to take this enlarging 90° mirror finder.
Davor,
Thank you very much for this information.
Loc
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1) I also can say that I got very good service from Sinar. After having AF problems I could speak over phone to the right guy who could tell me if they can improve it or not (they could). I sent the camera to Sinar Germany (I live in germany), they sent it to Switzerland for the free update/improvement and sent it directly back to me. All this took about roughly 3 weeks, which I think is really ok.
Sinar people in Switzerland and Germany have allways been helpful and friendly when I called.
2) regdring the 90 degree finder. I dont have experience with it but when I was interested in a finder and talked to F&H (shortly before trhey closed) the recommendation was the 45 degree finder. Which is not mirror based but with a prism. I got this one for SInar (it allows to use the rotating back) and do like (however I often just use and like the WLF)
3) I am still believe the Hy6 and also the Artec are to great and very innovative products and I am glad that Sinar continues those and the service in a very professional manner.
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Just adding my 5 cents ... just got my HY6 back from a firmware/service ... first rate service from Sinar and their Australian agent David Kay they both really set a very high standard.
JOHN
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Hi,
I want to add something too: I had a problem yesterday with a Sinar 8x10 inch Norma (produced until the 70's). This morning I send an email to Sinar and got the solution 2 hours later. I need a small adapter piece and they still can deliver it. Wow.
Best,
Johannes
Nice! I wish Horseman maintained that level of support for their older systems.
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Other manufacturers also use these fora to gratuitously self-promote, but none is as in-your-face about it as Sinar. You've got this red-hot thread that is devoid of technical substance -- it is just dedicated to singing this manufacturer's praises -- and yet it won't die. Every time you click on the MFDB forum, you are reminded that Sinar is "perfect". It is not believable that this thread began spontaneously or that it stays alive because of some huge interest in Sinar's perfect service. I guess the temptation of free advertising is too much to resist.
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Other manufacturers also use these fora to gratuitously self-promote, but none is as in-your-face about it as Sinar. You've got this red-hot thread that is devoid of technical substance -- it is just dedicated to singing this manufacturer's praises -- and yet it won't die. Every time you click on the MFDB forum, you are reminded that Sinar is "perfect". It is not believable that this thread began spontaneously or that it stays alive because of some huge interest in Sinar's perfect service. I guess the temptation of free advertising is too much to resist.
Well, this thread did start spontaneously and, in terms of its technical contribution, several people learned from my post that you can set up micro focus adjustments with the latest firmware update on the Hy6 - I received private emails from 3 guys who had not known that and asked more info on how this could be installed/operated. And the thread would not continue if you did not submit your latest post which contributed no valuable knowledge. I do not post here frequently and I have no relationship with Sinar. In fact Sinar was absent from this forum for a while and I am glad that Martin Widmann started to contribute since there is less of an installed base and experience to share around than in the case of Phase and Hassy and I appreciate every bit of info found here as the learning curve has been quite steep for me, especially regarding the (somewhat idiosyncratic) RAW conversion software.
The truth is that I received good service from the guys in Zurich and that I was surprised to receive such service from a supplier of a system that has been called "dead". So sorry to have been in your face, please skip any further posts on this topic. Regards, Martin
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I liked this thread !
I do think that the brands like Sinar are going to survive in the next decades if they can offer really something special,
and the Customer service at that level is part of the equation.
IMO.
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Martin
I did not resurrect this thread; it was yet another "customer" who thought Sinar was perfect. They come just as the thread is about to go to the second page and add their voice to the chorus of Sinar lovers!
I wish Sinar all the best, as another competitor is always a good things for us consumers. But this style of self-promotion is OTT and frankly smacks of desperation. Besides, those of living in Zurich know there is no such thing as perfect service around here -- far from it.
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The other customer is no Sinar plant, which you would see if you read his other contributions. And my own contribution to this was a lament (having to go to the ends of the earth to source parts and accessories). The vendors who participate here are very clear and honest about their affiliation, and do not write self-promotional threads in such a manner.
It is possible that "far from perfect" service in Zurich is still miles better than we get from some other companies.
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Liam
Take a look at Markus Zuber's glowing "user report" on the Imageprint 8. Though he never discloses it, he is the exclusive imageprint vendor in Switzerland. So much for honesty and fair disclosure.
This type of thing ruins the credibility of the site and the manufacturers who participate. That is why I have a hard time believing anything that manufacturers insert in these sites. There is apparently no code of conduct for the manufacturers (did Reichmann know that Zuber sells Imageprint and intentionally failed to disclose it?) and yet their contributions in these sites have a big impact on consumer behavior.
To start with, lets ask baudelino his real name: is he the Martin from Sinar?
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Other manufacturers also use these fora to gratuitously self-promote, but none is as in-your-face about it as Sinar.
You couldn't be more wrong.
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OK, lets give Sinar a break and move on to others.
I can show you a hundred posts and reviews by "unbiased" reviewers saying the P-65 does not need a wake-up call. Wow, this was a big deal and a good reason to buy. But there is more to the story that is not disclosed in any review, post or thread: used in that mode, the back heats up quickly and exhausts the battery in as little as 20 min.
Another example: Zuber's review of Imageprint 8 does not tell you that the new software does not work in 2880 or 8-pass mode. This omission is alarmingly misleading, especially when combined with the author's non-disclosure of his bias.
So, concerns about the veracity of information found in these threads are valid. As the Imageprint example shows, at least some manufacturers contribute to this lack of credibility.
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Well, this thread did start spontaneously and, in terms of its technical contribution, several people learned from my post that you can set up micro focus adjustments with the latest firmware update on the Hy6 - I received private emails from 3 guys who had not known that and asked more info on how this could be installed/operated. And the thread would not continue if you did not submit your latest post which contributed no valuable knowledge. I do not post here frequently and I have no relationship with Sinar. In fact Sinar was absent from this forum for a while and I am glad that Martin Widmann started to contribute since there is less of an installed base and experience to share around than in the case of Phase and Hassy and I appreciate every bit of info found here as the learning curve has been quite steep for me, especially regarding the (somewhat idiosyncratic) RAW conversion software.
The truth is that I received good service from the guys in Zurich and that I was surprised to receive such service from a supplier of a system that has been called "dead". So sorry to have been in your face, please skip any further posts on this topic. Regards, Martin
To second this - we had had communication off the forum, and it was recommended that this story about Sinar service be put it on line. He was initially reluctant ("what would be interesting about this?") but with some urging, posted the story as the first post. Its because Sinar is so ... sluggish about promotion that it seemed that the story of how they delivered in the trenches (in this case) might be of interest.
Self promotion? Hardly. And before you ask... I have no Sinar affiliation. It just seemed kind of interesting to see old world service in the new world.
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Geoffrey
Remember Thierry Sinar? He used to lurk around all the forums and insert posts about Sinar and other products. He would get pissie sometimes with other posters and take offense at any suggestion he might have a bias. He was just too present and said too much. With his departure I thought Sinar would shift to a more appropriate and professional web presence but this thread indicates otherwise.
Your own post suggests that this thread was not spontaneous as some thought and discussion went into whether it would be interesting enough and beneficial enough to Sinar. I followed the thread because it had Zurich in the title and noticed that there is also some thought behind keeping it alive and prominent in the forum. People usually don't pull a thread out of the second page just to agree that a manufacturer is perfect.
The person who started this thread does not disclose his name -- which is against forum rules -- and further erodes the credibility of the thread. Baudelino's first name is Martin -- we know because he signed just one of his posts. Sinar's rep's first name is also Martin. Hmmm!
To me "old world service" means no service.
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Geoffrey
Remember Thierry Sinar? He used to lurk around all the forums and insert posts about Sinar and other products. He would get pissie sometimes with other posters and take offense at any suggestion he might have a bias. He was just too present and said too much. With his departure I thought Sinar would shift to a more appropriate and professional web presence but this thread indicates otherwise.
Your own post suggests that this thread was not spontaneous as some thought and discussion went into whether it would be interesting enough and beneficial enough to Sinar. I followed the thread because it had Zurich in the title and noticed that there is also some thought behind keeping it alive and prominent in the forum. People usually don't pull a thread out of the second page just to agree that a manufacturer is perfect.
The person who started this thread does not disclose his name -- which is against forum rules -- and further erodes the credibility of the thread. Baudelino's first name is Martin -- we know because he signed just one of his posts. Sinar's rep's first name is also Martin. Hmmm!
To me "old world service" means no service.
The person who started this thread is me, Martin Drazsky from Prague. My company website is www.reformcapital.com. My photography website is still under construction. I use the pseudonym baudolino as I like the novel of the same name by Umberto Eco. Happy now, Babak? Or am I still transgressing?
[attachment=22573:PODO1.jpg]
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Geoffrey
Remember Thierry Sinar? He used to lurk around all the forums and insert posts about Sinar and other products. He would get pissie sometimes with other posters and take offense at any suggestion he might have a bias. He was just too present and said too much. With his departure I thought Sinar would shift to a more appropriate and professional web presence but this thread indicates otherwise.
Your own post suggests that this thread was not spontaneous as some thought and discussion went into whether it would be interesting enough and beneficial enough to Sinar. I followed the thread because it had Zurich in the title and noticed that there is also some thought behind keeping it alive and prominent in the forum. People usually don't pull a thread out of the second page just to agree that a manufacturer is perfect.
The person who started this thread does not disclose his name -- which is against forum rules -- and further erodes the credibility of the thread. Baudelino's first name is Martin -- we know because he signed just one of his posts. Sinar's rep's first name is also Martin. Hmmm!
To me "old world service" means no service.
Your notion of "old world service" may be a bit different than mine. For me, its business done by trust and obligation, not by fear of litigation. There were fine buildings built in Chicago on a handshake. That's old world where I live. Stand by principles.
Yes, I remember Thierry - and while he might have been biased, he wore it on his sleeve, and it wasn't too hard to tell where he was coming from.
You are insinuating something else entirely here - that this was posed by someone on behalf of Sinar, etc. While you are entitled to your opinion, it doesn't have much to do with the facts in this case. I had correspondence with Martin, and he told me of going to Sinar and the service he got. I suggested he post this story, as it was pretty remarkable service and flies in the face of the norm today, where everyone expects internet speed replies, and de-personalized service. He actually got personalized service from Sinar that met his needs, in a rather wonderful and personable way.
He was reluctant to post it as he didn't see much relevance to the board - upon further urging, he went ahead and he and I have both been bemused by how much interest there has been in this subject. There was no commercial interest in this whatsoever. The only interest I had is that of wondering about the merits of such old-world attention to people and their needs.
Rather than assigning bad motives to this, might one take another position? that perhaps good things can happen, and when they do, they are worth sharing. Keep in mind Sinar takes such a beating on the net, and bluntly speaking, they are not understood well in the US at all. Maybe they are an old-world company doing things another way. If telling that is "helping Sinar", gee, I guess that would make us guilty. On the other hand, its hard to talk about camera gear without mentioning a manufacturer, so where is the line drawn?
This story captured a charming old-world situation. One suspects no commercially savvy, new world distributor, run by hedge fund folks would have provided the level of personalized service as was given to Martin for the costs (nominal) that were charged.
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The person who started this thread does not disclose his name -- which is against forum rules -- and further erodes the credibility of the thread. Baudelino's first name is Martin -- we know because he signed just one of his posts. Sinar's rep's first name is also Martin. Hmmm!
We are definitely not the same person :-) I saw baudolino when he was in Zürich, but I had no chance to talk to him.
Martin
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relax relax,
why is nobody posting this news (well, news to me) from this weeks announcement
http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Sinar-gib...rueckteil-offen (http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Sinar-gibt-sich-rueckteil-offen) (german)
Sinar is opening the P3 and ArTec to the other missing mounts.
No, no, I'm not working for Sinar;-)
Tom-
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Martin
At the end of the day, what counts is the manufacturer's stated policy, whether it relates to customer service, repairs or warranty claims handling. This stated policy should be binding and apply to everyone. So, when I took my broken Foba ballhead over to the "guys in Zurich", I could have said I want the service and the lunch you gave to my friend Martin (I did not get that service or the lunch).
Perhaps Martin Widmann can clarify whether Sinar is committed to some special customer service protocol that is better than others. That would invite no insinuation or suspicion.
But, given the amount of misleading information that circulates, anonymous posts and fuzzy notions like "old world service" do and should invite questions and scrutiny. This is a good thing. After all this, though, we still do not know what exactly is Sinar's actual customer service policy.
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Even though I could never understand Sinar's self indulgent attitude towards customers, I loved and used Sinar products. Unfortunately now, they are obviously broken glass, perhaps for some worth picking.
Somehow, Sinar and Leica are are always reminding me that I'm not getting any younger..
Therefore, I said farewell to Sinar and Leica long time ago!
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relax relax,
why is nobody posting this news (well, news to me) from this weeks announcement
http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Sinar-gib...rueckteil-offen (http://www.photoscala.de/Artikel/Sinar-gibt-sich-rueckteil-offen) (german)
Sinar is opening the P3 and ArTec to the other missing mounts.
No, no, I'm not working for Sinar;-)
Tom-
Martin,
Any chance Sinar's next step will be to interface with Schneider electronic shutters
instead of strictly Linos optics in CMV shutters?
Edit: I'd even want power to be supplied to Schneider electronic shutter in an elegant way.
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Perhaps Martin Widmann can clarify whether Sinar is committed to some special customer service protocol that is better than others. That would invite no insinuation or suspicion.
I am not involved in the service but have seen every now and then customers coming here, bringing in their equipment and sometimes waiting for the repair. I think the main idea is that we do what we can do to satisfy the customer.
Martin
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Any chance Sinar's next step will be to interface with Schneider electronic shutters instead of strictly Linos optics in CMV shutters?
There is a chance, but I cannot promise it for sure. And it won't be exactly the next step.
Martin
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Geoffrey
Remember Thierry Sinar? He used to lurk around all the forums and insert posts about Sinar and other products. He would get pissie sometimes with other posters and take offense at any suggestion he might have a bias. He was just too present and said too much. With his departure I thought Sinar would shift to a more appropriate and professional web presence but this thread indicates otherwise.
Your own post suggests that this thread was not spontaneous as some thought and discussion went into whether it would be interesting enough and beneficial enough to Sinar. I followed the thread because it had Zurich in the title and noticed that there is also some thought behind keeping it alive and prominent in the forum. People usually don't pull a thread out of the second page just to agree that a manufacturer is perfect.
The person who started this thread does not disclose his name -- which is against forum rules -- and further erodes the credibility of the thread. Baudelino's first name is Martin -- we know because he signed just one of his posts. Sinar's rep's first name is also Martin. Hmmm!
To me "old world service" means no service.
Thierry allways made clear that he worked for Sinar. IMO can be of great help if people like him post on forums and answer questions. If the answer might be a little biased - who cares as long as we get good technical information.
Making people like him going away from the forum means loosing information. plain simple.
Personally I also posted to have good experience with Sinar because I made this experience.
I dont understand whats the problem if people do not only post problems but also good experiences. I wish this happened more often in todays world.
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Geoffrey
Remember Thierry Sinar? He used to lurk around all the forums and insert posts about Sinar and other products. He would get pissie sometimes with other posters and take offense at any suggestion he might have a bias. He was just too present and said too much. With his departure I thought Sinar would shift to a more appropriate and professional web presence but this thread indicates otherwise.
Your own post suggests that this thread was not spontaneous as some thought and discussion went into whether it would be interesting enough and beneficial enough to Sinar. I followed the thread because it had Zurich in the title and noticed that there is also some thought behind keeping it alive and prominent in the forum. People usually don't pull a thread out of the second page just to agree that a manufacturer is perfect.
The person who started this thread does not disclose his name -- which is against forum rules -- and further erodes the credibility of the thread. Baudelino's first name is Martin -- we know because he signed just one of his posts. Sinar's rep's first name is also Martin. Hmmm!
To me "old world service" means no service.
Thierry is a very nice person who helped me for some problems. I thank him, and I regret that he is no more present.
He was the dealer for Sinar in Asia, and make no mystery about this !
Maybe have you some personal problems with him ?
PdF