Luminous Landscape Forum
Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Printing: Printers, Papers and Inks => Topic started by: bellimages on May 11, 2010, 02:07:31 pm
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I would like to print a half dozen books that will showcase my best work. I am looking for a high quality product ..... similar to many photo books that I own. From what I've seen, I would not be happy with the quality that LuLu provides ..... nothing against what they do. I am just looking for the best quality available. I'm not even sure that the online book companies can provide it.
Cost is not an issue. I don't mind paying around $100/hardcover book for a 12" x 12" size.
I found a link to the top 10 photo book publishers. It looks like KoLo is the most expensive. Has anyone used them ..... or other companies?
Here is a link:
http://photo-book-review.toptenreviews.com/ (http://photo-book-review.toptenreviews.com/)
And here is a company that prints on water color paper, as well as other stock:
http://www.apollo-imagizing.com/ArtisanCollection/ (http://www.apollo-imagizing.com/ArtisanCollection/)
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I'm about to do the same....But it's a worldwide jungle of producers out there.
I'm planning to test Blurb (http://www.blurb.com/) because that they was awarded by TIPA (http://www.tipa.com/english/award-details.php?iId=1806&sAward=Best+Photo+Service)
Most of the offers on the net seems to favor price, easy design and upload, shipping.
Trying to find something about color management, and then you have to search very deep inside their sites.
Maybe I do it simple and print myself and then take it to a bookbinder
/Sven
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third link on google for photobook comparison (http://www.digitalhomethoughts.com/news/show/97676/the-great-photo-book-round-up-review-who-makes-the-best-photo-books.html)
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I received an email from Blurb yesterday about a webinar that they are having in a couple of weeks on color management for books. Just passing along info for those that might be interested.
I would imagine that there might be more info at the Blurb website.
"Greetings,
Want to make sure the color in your Blurb book rocks? Need the nitty gritty on color management for your Photography Book Now submission? Let us help.
Sign up for our Color Management Webinar on Tuesday, May 25. We’re offering two sessions, one at 1:00 p.m. EDT (10 a.m. PDT / 11:00 p.m. GMT) and another at 3:00 p.m. EDT (12 p.m. PDT / 1:00 a.m. on May 26 GMT), so grab the time that works for you and pick up some expert tips.
Led by the color wizards from X-Rite and our very own Blurb gurus, this webinar covers:
• Monitor calibration and profiling
• Color spaces and conversions
• Soft proofing in Adobe® Photoshop®
• Prepping files for Blurb books
Rest assured, whether you’re using Photoshop and Blurb BookSmart®, or Adobe® InDesign® and our PDF to Book workflow, we’ll go over the fine points of file preparation so that the color in your books is right on.
Join us and take your books to the next level. This webinar promises to be a great one and we hope to see you there.
Happy color perfecting,
The Blurberati "
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I would like to print a half dozen books that will showcase my best work. I am looking for a high quality product ....
Then you are going to have to revise your next statement...
Cost is not an issue. I don't mind paying around $100/hardcover book for a 12" x 12" size.
I do not mean to demean your efforts or say this in a sarcastic way, but $100 for a 12x12 "high quality" product is laughable.
And I have seen the Blurb books. Printing was crap IMHO.
Tom
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I've had two editions of my book, "Vanishing Ireland" (http://www.vanishing-ireland.com) printed by Blurb. From first hand, critical experience, the quality is significantly improved with the advent of PDF submission, as well as the heavier 100# stock. I researched and saw samples of about six different print-on-demand publishers, and Blurb was the only one that met the combination of sizes, quality and cost. For me, printing via Blurb was basically about having a sample book to send to mainstream publishers, but that hasn't stopped me from selling 50 copies.
You don't say how many pages you plan to print, and that always effects the final cost. You could try Asuka, but their prices are even steeper for limited press-runs. Blurb is by no means perfect, only that it's less imperfect than many others I've found. The key is knowing how to oversee your color and print profiles and final images. (I've worked on pre-press imaging since 1992, worked with color separations since 1979, and started shooting in 1976.) Personally, I bought several books I liked from several print-on-demand printers, and that's how I made my decision.
Nemo
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There was a long thread not too long ago about Blurb vs. My Publisher. I wrote at length about my experiences using Blurb for my Antarctica book. You can read it at http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=40712 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=40712).
Also, as was mentioned above, my good friend Jason Dunn wrote an epic review of all the major photo book publishers. The review will give you all sorts of details.
Neil
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There was a long thread not too long ago about Blurb vs. My Publisher. I wrote at length about my experiences using Blurb for my Antarctica book. You can read it at http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=40712 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=40712).
Also, as was mentioned above, my good friend Jason Dunn wrote an epic review of all the major photo book publishers. The review will give you all sorts of details.
Neil
It really depends on what you are looking for. I personally use http://www.finaoonline.com/ (http://www.finaoonline.com/) . I do alot of weddings, so they have stuff that is perfect for that.
However, they do have some self mount albums (you do your own printing and place it in a flush mount pre-made album) these are called Element books. I made one book using this for a Yosemite trip I took. it turned out awesome.
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Then you are going to have to revise your next statement...
I do not mean to demean your efforts or say this in a sarcastic way, but $100 for a 12x12 "high quality" product is laughable.
And I have seen the Blurb books. Printing was crap IMHO.
Tom
Well, quite honestly, if I'm having six of these done (at $100/book), I'm going to be spending $600. I hate to spend much more than that.
Being a graphic designer, I know what it takes to achieve quality printing. I can't afford that on such a low run. Do you have any useful suggestions, or just your "comment?"
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Try Paperchase in LA. I've had two books printed and have been very happy. Their website has the ability to estimate the project also. Here's a link. http://www.paperchase.net/ (http://www.paperchase.net/). Jim
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If you do your own printing may be worth trying one of the Hahnemuhle Leather albums, They use the Photorag Duo and I think have a nice high quality feel to them cause of the brass screws and thick paper.
http://www.hahnemuehle.com/site/us/463/ink...oto-albums.html (http://www.hahnemuehle.com/site/us/463/inkjet-photo-albums.html)
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Well, quite honestly, if I'm having six of these done (at $100/book), I'm going to be spending $600. I hate to spend much more than that.
Being a graphic designer, I know what it takes to achieve quality printing. I can't afford that on such a low run. Do you have any useful suggestions, or just your "comment?"
My comment was based on your ridiculous assertion that "Cost is not an issue". Do you even read what you post? Seems as if cost is suddenly an issue after all, doesen't it?
If your expectations are that a 100 buck 12x12 is going to be adequate, then your definition of "quality" is different than mine. It appears you are looking for cheap press-printed books, not bound photographs. Good luck.
Tom
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Has anybody ever heard of Photo Book Press (http://www.photobookpress.com/book-ideas/fine-art-books)? They have an ad in this months Outdoor Photographer, that claims their books are high enough quality to be considered fine-art/coffee-table books. I didn't see a price list though (you may have to register for that, which I didn't take the time to do).
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I have been developing a way to make books with a very high quality printing at a low price and yes I did say low price. So I did that and set up system to do that and the book is beautiful. But this was for higher end runs 500 and above. But I was able to make the book for 8 dollars at the quantity of 3500 and for 500 at 11 dollars and yes this is hard cover with a slip jacket. By the way if you have seen this book called "Along the Water's Edge". Forward written by Michael Reichmann. I have been asked to do some lectures on how to make a book of this quality.
So this led to see if I could find a small run printer with high quality with all the standards that I set up on the high run. I do believe I have found this but I do not have had the time to test this printer, but I did have an extensive conversation and lets just say they past the test which to this day no one else has. I will inform everyone what I have figured out very soon. Tim
I would like to print a half dozen books that will showcase my best work. I am looking for a high quality product ..... similar to many photo books that I own. From what I've seen, I would not be happy with the quality that LuLu provides ..... nothing against what they do. I am just looking for the best quality available. I'm not even sure that the online book companies can provide it.
Cost is not an issue. I don't mind paying around $100/hardcover book for a 12" x 12" size.
I found a link to the top 10 photo book publishers. It looks like KoLo is the most expensive. Has anyone used them ..... or other companies?
Here is a link:
http://photo-book-review.toptenreviews.com/ (http://photo-book-review.toptenreviews.com/)
And here is a company that prints on water color paper, as well as other stock:
http://www.apollo-imagizing.com/ArtisanCollection/ (http://www.apollo-imagizing.com/ArtisanCollection/)
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Has anybody ever heard of Photo Book Press (http://www.photobookpress.com/book-ideas/fine-art-books)? They have an ad in this months Outdoor Photographer, that claims their books are high enough quality to be considered fine-art/coffee-table books. I didn't see a price list though (you may have to register for that, which I didn't take the time to do).
Jeff, I have not heard of them. But keep in mind, advertising is all about selling a product (as I'm sure you know). If you find out more about them, or see samples, let me know. I'm going to be working on this project once I retire from the University this summer ... I can't wait to dig into it.
Jan
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I have been developing a way to make books with a very high quality printing at a low price and yes I did say low price. So I did that and set up system to do that and the book is beautiful. But this was for higher end runs 500 and above. But I was able to make the book for 8 dollars at the quantity of 3500 and for 500 at 11 dollars and yes this is hard cover with a slip jacket. By the way if you have seen this book called "Along the Water's Edge". Forward written by Michael Reichmann. I have been asked to do some lectures on how to make a book of this quality.
So this led to see if I could find a small run printer with high quality with all the standards that I set up on the high run. I do believe I have found this but I do not have had the time to test this printer, but I did have an extensive conversation and lets just say they past the test which to this day no one else has. I will inform everyone what I have figured out very soon. Tim
Keep me posted Tim. I've been printing offset my entire career (in graphic design). Historically, to get good prices/unit, you have to print a lot of units (in this case, books) .... just as you've said. At this point in time, I don't have a market for thousands of books, or even 500 (not even 250).
Jan
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Have you considered doing a Lenswork style folio instead?
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Have you considered doing a Lenswork style folio instead?
If you do, I know a good source for covers
Neil
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Have you considered doing a Lenswork style folio instead?
I've toyed with that idea. But he problem is that images that are printed on fine art mat paper are v-e-r-y susceptible to scratches (even when a finger nail is ran across the print). Suggestions?
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I've toyed with that idea. But he problem is that images that are printed on fine art mat paper are v-e-r-y susceptible to scratches (even when a finger nail is ran across the print). Suggestions?
It really depends on the paper you use. Ilford GFS is much more likely to show this than, say, Hahnemuhle FineArt Baryta. Honestly though, when I've watched people interact with folios, they handle them carefully and only by the edges. That's not to say scratches won't happen, but they don't get handled the same way a book does.
Neil
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Why not spray your prints with either the hahnemuhle or moab spray?
Steven
Visit My Website (http://www.friedmanphoto.com)
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I've toyed with that idea. But he problem is that images that are printed on fine art mat paper are v-e-r-y susceptible to scratches (even when a finger nail is ran across the print). Suggestions?
How about handling them like they are art? Seriously, folios are a different beast than books. People will flip through a book but they aren't sure what to do with a folio.
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third link on google for photobook comparison (http://www.digitalhomethoughts.com/news/show/97676/the-great-photo-book-round-up-review-who-makes-the-best-photo-books.html)
Thanks, an excellent photobook printing review. As the author said, there are very few online reviews comparing different publishers. Comments by those who have only printed with a single vendor and do not provide any context about the objectives of their books are not very helpful.
I searched online for a comprehensive review of photo book printing services, and wasn't able to find any that answered this question: who makes the best consumer-grade photo books?
Here are a few more, but some are rather dated:
http://sharpernewyork.blogspot.com/2009/07...st-results.html (http://sharpernewyork.blogspot.com/2009/07/print-on-demand-book-test-results.html)
http://blog.photoshelter.com/corp/2009/09/...oto-book-p.html (http://blog.photoshelter.com/corp/2009/09/making-an-awesome-photo-book-p.html)
http://www.naturephotographers.net/article...5/mh0405-1.html (http://www.naturephotographers.net/articles0405/mh0405-1.html)
http://www.naturephotographers.net/article...5/mh0905-1.html (http://www.naturephotographers.net/articles0905/mh0905-1.html)
http://web.archive.org/web/20071209093209/...PODExposed.html (http://web.archive.org/web/20071209093209/http://www.daepublishing.com/pod/PODExposed.html)
http://web.archive.org/web/20080127115515/...gory/pod-books/ (http://web.archive.org/web/20080127115515/beckermanphoto.com/category/pod-books/)
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Since Blurb was being thrown around here I thought I would add my 2+ years and about 15 book experience with them. I no longer use them and frankly don't know who will substitute if I were to make books again. Here is my rough pro/con of the them.
Pros.
1. Customer Service - For every ruined book I received a replacement, no bones about it. Just had to email photos of damage and wait 2 weeks.
2. Quality/Price/Software - Print quality on hardbound books rivals other similar priced publishers. Price seems in line for what you get (when you get something undamaged). Dedicated software means no need for dedicated page layout program - just be sure to do your own resizing of photos in photoshop, don't rely on its software to handle that right.
Cons.
1. Quality Assurance - Nearly every order, except the first few, arrived damaged. The damage has ranged from wrinkled pages (water damage but no water damage to shipping container), bent pages, roller marks on photos, blurb logo printing when it was set to not print, poor page trimming, incorrect page trimming so that images were pushed too far to the margins, page order reversed so book was backwards, page elements missing, ink blotches, dust jacket damage, and print variation (color and contrast) from order to order. Mind you that the vast majority of these issues occurred when I was doing their B3 program, which was supposed to provide consistency from order to order, better color management, etc.
2. Beta - Why is everything always in "beta," like an easy excuse for when something goes wrong.
My frustration with multiple reprints to fix just a single order, over and over again surmounted any benefit of using their services. My last client waited almost an additional 1.5 months as their order was reprinted and reprinted until I finally had 3 good books. I will add that I was refunded for the order in the end, without much complaint on my part. It got so bad that I would never ship a book direct from them to a client because of fear they would receive something damaged and it would reflect poorly on me. If they can get their act together and provide some sort of quality check before they ship out a book it would be a major benefit and I would probably still use them for inexpensive people books. But I can't deal with the only proven consistency being damaged goods.
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Since Blurb was being thrown around here I thought I would add my 2+ years and about 15 book experience with them. I no longer use them and frankly don't know who will substitute if I were to make books again. Here is my rough pro/con of the them.
Same experience here, unfortunately.
Cheers,
Bernard
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My frustration with multiple reprints to fix just a single order, over and over again surmounted any benefit of using their services.
Based on many online comments, Blurb uses multiple printers at different locations. That may explain the inconsistency in quality. Their sheer volume allows them to have enough margin to reprint upon request. But their quality/price ratio is good value and hard to beat.
Adorama uses Fuji Crystal Archive photo paper for their books (lightjet?) and is getting many glowing reviews.
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Why not spray your prints with either the hahnemuhle or moab spray?
Steven
Visit My Website (http://www.friedmanphoto.com)
Spraying your book pages will help to prevent some marring of the surface but your health will be greatly impacted - and those around you - if you want to do several editions or print with many pages. After just a few aerosol type inkjet protective sprays my garage is reeking and the odor finds its way through the vents into my home as well. Also these sprays do not really build up enough layers to provide regular handling protection, and if you were to spray many coats sometimes they leave a residue or get hazy (depends on matting agents and other factors of the sprays absorbing into the paper).
Besides the Adorama route - which I might try next, there is at least one wedding album company that prints on Epson Enhanced Matte, runs them through a liquid lamination machine, and then glues the pages back to back. This solves your handling issues and still gives you the broader gamut of your inkjet printer (if you have a good one). These machines are not cheap but instead you can get a Fuji HVLP spray setup for around $800 or less and spray your prints with Clearshield or something similar. Spraying a water-based coating is far healthier then using the cans, even with masks. You still need to find a binding company, or use one of the pre-made post systems on the market. Personally, for books, I would outsource, though if you are hardcore & dedicated this equipment will serve you well for other inkjet coating projects too.
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Jeff, I have not heard of them. But keep in mind, advertising is all about selling a product (as I'm sure you know). If you find out more about them, or see samples, let me know. I'm going to be working on this project once I retire from the University this summer ... I can't wait to dig into it.
Jan
I know this topic has not been replied to for more than 120 days - but I think the following may be of interest to some.
I have been investigating Photobook Press over the last few weeks as a prelude to a possible iceland book. I have looked at Blurb and spoken to ppl who have used them and they all say the same thing 'they are ok - not great from a print quality perspective'. Hence my reasons to start looking at Photobook press. I contacted PBP and spoke to them about colour management and could not get a straight answer other than they suggested sending them via FTP 4 high res files which they would then sample print for me at no cost. This is great service and they are to be commended for it.
How did the samples turn out?
in a word 'Horrible'.
Yes, the colour is close - far from exact, but its close. Everything else about the printing is woeful however IMO. The images are soft, desataruted with poor DMax and little colour depth. dot structure is clearly evident without a loop. Maybe my expectations are to high being used to high quality large format inkjets but I was very disappointed. Comparing the sample side by side with inkjets is night and day. The PBP samples look like cheap laser jets.
What disappointed me slightly was their response - included below in full and unedited. I do commend PBP for the service of sending out sample prints. And to this end they were excellent to deal with. They responded quickly to my emails and I think are genuinely producing the best owrk they can with the technologies they are using. This may be more me than them - but I am so used to high quality inkjets now that I find anything else really poor by comparison. For all I know PBP's samples may be far better than Blurb or other alternatives. Caveat Emptor.
ok.. maybe my expectations are too high based on the prints that come off my large format inkjet printer.
Appreciate the effort and thanks.
Josh
Landscape, Nature & Wilderness Photography
Blog!
On 28/09/2010, at 11:04 AM, Margaret Telfer wrote:
Joshua.
Yes, digital printing is not like an inkjet. If that is what you need - go ahead and print your book with an inkjet - the ink is the most expensive liquid on the planet.
Our print quality is not poor - it is just not a photographic print it is digital printing. We print for some of the finest photographers in the world.
Good luck!
Margaret
Margaret Telfer
PhotoBook Press
245 Aldrich Ave. N. Ste 310
Minneapolis, MN 55405
612-874-0244
www.photobookpress.com
On Sep 27, 2010, at 5:55 PM, Joshua Holko wrote:
thanks they arrived last night.
I am disappointed in the overall quality. The colour is a reasonable match, but the print quality is very poor compared to inkjets.
Josh
Landscape, Nature & Wilderness Photography
Blog!
On 28/09/2010, at 3:24 AM, Margaret Telfer wrote:
Josh,
We send out sample prints via the post office first class. We don't have a tracking number but think they should be there this week.
Please let me know when they arrive.
best,
Margaret
Margaret Telfer
Publisher
PhotoBook Press
245 Aldrich Ave N., Ste 310
Minneapolis, MN 55405
p 612-874-0244 · f 612-874-9202
toll free 888-333-6950
www.photobookpress.com
Now I am sure they do print for a lot of photographers, and they may well be happy with the results. But IMO, there is just no substitute for a fine art inkjet by comparison. Again, I may be being grossly unfair to book publishers here by making this comparison. If so, so be it - once you have tasted the world of fine art inkjet its impossible to go back (at least for me).
If I do decide to do a book it will be self published and printed on my inkjet and then custom bound.
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Josh - thanks for reporting back. Sorry to hear the results aren't up to par. I'm beginning to suspect that these HP indigo and similar digital presses are just not up to snuff for what photographers like us expect in print quality. The puzzling thing is that I hear some photographers saying they're happy with the results they get from this or that service, but I've never seen one of these on-demand books that I thought had good print quality, so maybe I'm just picky.
Having said that, here's another place I recently heard about that may be worth checking out: http://www.aphotoeditor.com/2009/06/11/edition-one-studios-makes-books-for-photographers/
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The book called "Along the Water's Edge" was designed by Tim Wolcott and forward written by our leader Michael Reichmann. I don't have it here its at the mountain house in Julian. But that book was printed to amazing standards. I won't be back for a couple weeks but if any one else has it. Who printed it. I know Tim designed it.
He is supposed to give a lecture in Los Angeles sometime soon about making books. I will be attending that. JP
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I wanted to mention that the current issue of Pop Photo (with the B&W landscape cover) has an article that lists the pros and cons of a wide assortment of photobook makers. I don't have it in front of me, but I believe that Kodak and Adorama did well. In fact, I believe that they ranked the image quality from the Kodak over all others. You may want to go to the newstand and take a look.
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I'd like to suggest Edition One Books (http://editiononebooks.com/) as an option. They are my next door neighbors, a small operation geared to higher quality digital book production than companies like Blurb produce, but at a comparable price. They also have much better cover operations that can include debossing and foil stamping, if wanted.
Worth a look.
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This month's Popular Photography has a fairly in-depth evaluation of the major photo book publishers. Worth taking a look.
Merrill