Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: nicolaasdb on April 27, 2010, 02:23:31 pm
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I finally got a call from a leaf/phase one rep and he gave me the shocking upgrade rate for my aptus 65 (which I paid 17,995 for about 4 years ago).... I expected that since I skipped the 65s (3k plus upgrade price) a 6k upgrade price, but leaf or phase one changed their policy and felt my back was only worth $2505!?!??!?!? COME ON!!! 53k exposures in studio and always stored in a pelican case (dust and moisture free!) I this how they value there own product?
Anyways I sold the back on ebay for more than 3 times what they offered...but now what should I buy....?? ..... I need a medium format digital camera...... since phase one and leaf are basically the same company and will probably pull the same upgrade stunts again in 3 years.... hasselblad is the only other creditable company out there and they have a 3K upgrade....
any advice?? pro's con's?? maybe wait for the Canon 1ds mark IV or switching to Nikon.... will I see the difference ( I do see the difference between my 1ds Mark II)
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I finally got a call from a leaf/phase one rep and he gave me the shocking upgrade rate for my aptus 65 (which I paid 17,995 for about 4 years ago).... I expected that since I skipped the 65s (3k plus upgrade price) a 6k upgrade price, but leaf or phase one changed their policy and felt my back was only worth $2505!?!??!?!? COME ON!!! 53k exposures in studio and always stored in a pelican case (dust and moisture free!) I this how they value there own product?
Anyways I sold the back on ebay for more than 3 times what they offered...but now what should I buy....?? ..... I need a medium format digital camera...... since phase one and leaf are basically the same company and will probably pull the same upgrade stunts again in 3 years.... hasselblad is the only other creditable company out there and they have a 3K upgrade....
any advice?? pro's con's?? maybe wait for the Canon 1ds mark IV or switching to Nikon.... will I see the difference ( I do see the difference between my 1ds Mark II)
Hmmm.
I don't know who the dealer was regarding that upgrade offer, and I obviously don't know the details but that seems very low to me. Maybe one of my sales coworkers could comment.
In any case. A 1Ds Mark IV will surely add image quality and features but it will still be a Canon. Which means positives and negatives which will not be affected by a new version of the current iteration. Very unlikely these general attributes compared to medium format will change much with a 1Ds IV:
- 3:2 aspect ratio compared to MF's nearly-always 4:3
- CMOS sensor with AA filter (advantages and disadvantages) which soften the image slightly**
- smaller optical viewfinder which is less easy to focus manually with*
- few lenses that can really take advantage of the resolution of the system
- smaller sensor size (advantages and disadvantages)
- low-light-awesomeness: higher ISO and IS lenses
- flash sync speed 1/250 or so with studio strobes, much slower depending on the type of strobe and the amount of power you set it at if you need absolute frame evenness
- less modularity/body-flexibility (body/sensor tied together: upgrade both or upgrade neither, no waist-level-viewfinders, no view cameras for tabletop/food etc or tech cameras for landscape/architecture, less options for macro, no improvised/experimental camera bodies, no true double-exposures etc etc)
- lower quality very long exposures (will be interesting if canon pays any attention to this with the 1DsIV) especially in warmer weather
- more buttons and features (advantages and disadvantages)
- integrated vertical grip (advantages and disadvantages - no need for separate accessory but you always carry the weight/size)
- less ability to push/pull pleasant color accurate useful data from the highlights/shadows (we'll see here - there was a good improvement from the 1Ds II to the 1Ds III but I think they may be at their limits to further improve as the pixel pitch decreases - only time and hands on testing will show)
- poorer performance in mixed lighting (related to the effective push/pull of the individual channels)
- Sensor-readout and data path, heat sink construction, internal architecture geared towards a priority of speed over absolute quality (advantages and disadvantages)
- tethered operation which works well, but is an auxiliary rather than a core focus of design; e.g. fast bursts of shooting but (relatively) poor sustained shooting speed performance tethered with the last image in sequence delayed often a minute or more before it appears on screen
- only one provided profile which has to suffice for portrait, flash, tungsten etc (you can profile your camera with various calibration products, but its nice when the system is profiled in those conditions for you as is the case with Phase and Leaf backs).
- dSLR only features like video recording
- less desirable end-to-end software/hardware integration paths (few would argue that EOS Utility / DPP is in the same league as Capture One)
In short the answer is the same as always. They are very different platforms and each have their place. A new Canon is likely to be a good step up for Canons but is not likely to change the fundamental differences between the two types of systems.
*canon's live view helps tons with some specific tough focusing situations - we're big fans of that but not all shooters, and not all situations will be conducive to live view as a focusing aid
**don't know what the 1Ds IV AA filter will be like, but any such filter reduces absolute image quality while reducing the occurrence of moire - though the 6ish micron current generation of digital backs are far less likely to show moire than in the old days.
Doug Peterson ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/)
Buy Capture One at 10% off (http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/)
Personal Work (http://www.doug-peterson.com/)
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[premature submission, still editing]
You should get that seen to..
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[premature submission, still editing]
I've heard you can get a cream that would help that
David
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I finally got a call from a leaf/phase one rep and he gave me the shocking upgrade rate for my aptus 65 (which I paid 17,995 for about 4 years ago).... I expected that since I skipped the 65s (3k plus upgrade price) a 6k upgrade price, but leaf or phase one changed their policy and felt my back was only worth $2505!?!??!?!? COME ON!!! 53k exposures in studio and always stored in a pelican case (dust and moisture free!) I this how they value there own product?
Anyways I sold the back on ebay for more than 3 times what they offered...but now what should I buy....?? ..... I need a medium format digital camera...... since phase one and leaf are basically the same company and will probably pull the same upgrade stunts again in 3 years.... hasselblad is the only other creditable company out there and they have a 3K upgrade....
any advice?? pro's con's?? maybe wait for the Canon 1ds mark IV or switching to Nikon.... will I see the difference ( I do see the difference between my 1ds Mark II)
¢29/frame over 4.5 years seems like good investment don't you think?
But seriously...
a) Glad we finally got in touch with you (took some late night emails across the globe...sent you a PM as well)
b) If you're thinking of keeping your AFDII and RZ setup, then you know what my recommendation is going to be...if you go with an Aptus-II 8 then your back will be worth a bit more than 2.5K
Personally I think that this might be the best fit for the type of work you do.
Yair
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here is the info of the sales rep:
Wayne Sandmeyer
National Events and Promotions Manager
Leaf Imaging
200 Broadhollow Rd (STE 312)
Melville, NY 11747
Tel: 631.547.8900 x110
Fax: 631.547.9898
Mobile 516.982.9714
[email protected]
Www.phaseone.com
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I was offered a similar "upgrade" price for my A22 from the dealer I bought it from
My A22 + $15k for a new A7 II (new price $18k)
I asked why I should consider buying their new back considering the enormous devaluation the previous back I bought from them is currently bathing in. No answer yet ...
If I hadn't had that back paid for fully on jobs, and if it wasn't still such a great and useful back, I think I'd be pretty mad about now.
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thanks for your help Yair... I knew you would!
I am actually thinking of purchasing the DM22 (22mp) instead of the DM28 now that I sold my 65.
reasoning: smaller files (with same quality as the 28) and more shots per minute.
My question to you..... am I right about the quality compared to the DM28 and is the DM22 faster (in real life!)
My clients are fine with even the 16MP from my canon 1ds... I just feel that the files from the 65 are soooo much better and don't want to compromise....but if the II-5 and II-6 are the same in file quality I might size down and gain speed.
hope you can help.
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hi asf
I am always pretty mad... so that part is dealt with,
I just feel that make you build a business on making promises ... keep them .... right now even-tough the economy is showing signs of improvement the advertising industry is still trying to catch up.... so I can't imagine that sales are so amazing in the medium format digital back arena..... and a bit more incentive to keep your costumer in bad times will keep them coming back in good times for more order on larger formats (when they get a hell of a lot faster to shoot per minute) or back up cameras (so you don't have to pay soo much money to uncle sam... just invest it in equipment).
How did you like the quality of the files from your A22?? I don't remember why I went for a 65 anymore...
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Cream?? for premature submission??? do you think that works?? and would it burn a bit??
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any thoughts yet on the PENTAX 40MP 645D???
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How did you like the quality of the files from your A22?? I don't remember why I went for a 65 anymore...
At the time the 65 was cheaper than the 22 so maybe that was the reason?
In itself, the DM22 (or Aptus-II 5) is an excellent product, giving you a 65MB native file which is likely to be sharper than anything else on the market. For studio work at low iso (it can go down to real 25iso) it really is superb.
Speed wise, you'll get 70 frame/ min or more and as the files are not huge, it won't incur additional massive investments in computer hardware, storage etc...
HTH
Yair
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I finally got a call from a leaf/phase one rep and he gave me the shocking upgrade rate for my aptus 65 (which I paid 17,995 for about 4 years ago).... I expected that since I skipped the 65s (3k plus upgrade price) a 6k upgrade price, but leaf or phase one changed their policy and felt my back was only worth $2505!?!??!?!? COME ON!!! 53k exposures in studio and always stored in a pelican case (dust and moisture free!) I this how they value there own product?
Anyways I sold the back on ebay for more than 3 times what they offered...but now what should I buy....?? ..... I need a medium format digital camera...... since phase one and leaf are basically the same company and will probably pull the same upgrade stunts again in 3 years.... hasselblad is the only other creditable company out there and they have a 3K upgrade....
any advice?? pro's con's?? maybe wait for the Canon 1ds mark IV or switching to Nikon.... will I see the difference ( I do see the difference between my 1ds Mark II)
Nicolaas
While Leaf Imaging is a division of Phase One, they have independent pricing policies. Pricing is similar, but upgrade pricing is decidedly more aggressive on the part of Phase One. Example - Aptus 65 towards Aptus II 8 - $3,000 credit. Aptus 65 towards P40+ (same sensor) - $7,000 credit. Despite this disparity, we have had some success getting the pricing more equitable between the brands in certain instances. But on the face of it - Phase One upgrade pricing will be different from Leaf. So...you should consider them! Even aside from the pricing.
A note on the DM22, since you mentioned. That is a Leaf OEM and a Mamiya branded product. Identical to the Leaf Aptus II 5 Kit, although buying it under the Leaf label will mean a Phase One branded camera and lenses. And the Phase One lenses will carry a 3 year warranty as opposed to a one year on the Mamiya lenses.
A comment on the Aptus II 5 (DM22) vs the Aptus II 6 (DM28). While lower resolution can be helpful because while your clients might not require the size, there is a benefit to resolution aside from size in terms of detail rendering, fewer digital artifacts, fewer instances of moire, etc. Just a thought.
Steve Hendrix
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hi asf
I am always pretty mad... so that part is dealt with,
I just feel that make you build a business on making promises ... keep them .... right now even-tough the economy is showing signs of improvement the advertising industry is still trying to catch up.... so I can't imagine that sales are so amazing in the medium format digital back arena..... and a bit more incentive to keep your costumer in bad times will keep them coming back in good times for more order on larger formats (when they get a hell of a lot faster to shoot per minute) or back up cameras (so you don't have to pay soo much money to uncle sam... just invest it in equipment).
How did you like the quality of the files from your A22?? I don't remember why I went for a 65 anymore...
I know what you mean. Don't know what to think about any of the digital back manufacturers at the moment. I was very happy with Leaf before the takeover, now I feel like I'll be a red headed step child until/unless I buy a post takeover back from them. The trade in offer they gave me is frankly insulting, especially considering we bought 2 A22's at full price from them not that long ago.
Funny thing is they offered me the same 33mp back as the A7 II but Mamiya branded for $14k total and I could keep the A22. So what does that say? They don't want a trade in, they don't want the Mamiya branded backs.
In a year from now what will that Mamiya branded back be worth? Could I even trade it in?
The A22 files are, under the right circumstances, beautiful. Nicer than any other back's files I've seen. And I own it. That's the only real value it has anymore.
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I've heard you can get a cream that would help that
:-)
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STEVE: does phase one give me 7000 instead of not even 3K for my back when buying into their system?? and 2nd do you have the II-5 instock?
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thanks for the info doug... I see the difference between the canon I have and my leaf 65... I am looking into the Aptus II-5 any info about this compared to the 6
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thanks for your help Yair... I knew you would!
I am actually thinking of purchasing the DM22 (22mp) instead of the DM28 now that I sold my 65.
reasoning: smaller files (with same quality as the 28) and more shots per minute.
My question to you..... am I right about the quality compared to the DM28 and is the DM22 faster (in real life!)
My clients are fine with even the 16MP from my canon 1ds... I just feel that the files from the 65 are soooo much better and don't want to compromise....but if the II-5 and II-6 are the same in file quality I might size down and gain speed.
hope you can help.
Quick thought:
Phase One has a patented shooting mode called Sensor+ where the sensor bins together (in a very unusual - and patented - way) resulting in a base ISO two stops higher than normal and a shooting speed which is significantly increased. The resolution of the Sensor+ file from the P40+ is technically 10 megapixels; but our real world testing shows the files resolving just about as much real world detail as a 1Ds II, owing to the better lens quality, the higher resolution source from which it is downsampled, the lack of AA filter, and VERY careful math that Capture One employs to make use of these lower resolution raw files.
A P40+ in sensor plus is VERY fast. We recently measured it's REAL WORLD performance at 98 shots in a minute with consistent speed the entire time (no slow downs or other buffer-limitations - clocklike regularity) which is VERY fast even in the dSLR world (where timing also varies a lot as the buffer fills). Combine this with a DF body, the focus speed, accuracy, and handling speed of which is way beyond whatever body you had (H2, Contax, AFD2) and you have a real beast of speed.
A P40+ in sensor plus also goes from ISO200 to ISO3200 with a shockingly good ISO1600 (ISO3200 is not the greatest as you would expect from the last ISO of any camera system). This would give you a LOT of shooting flexibility compared to some of your other MF options. See also: our Phase One P40+ ISO800 on Sensor+ vs ISO800 on a 5D Mark II (http://www.captureintegration.com/2010/03/30/phase-one-p40-versus-canon-5dmkii-iso-800/) for an example of how color smoothness, shadow detail, and gradations are VERY well handled with Sensor+ at higher ISOs.
So a P40+ would give you 39 megapixels (and very good/pliable pixels) for the occasions you feel you would benefit from it and the rest of the time you could shoot it in Sensor+ mode and have easier to manage file sizes and FAST (and consistent) capture speed. The files would have even more dynamic range and color subtlety than your Aptus 65 used to have.
Sensor+ is not for everyone (many users may never turn it on once), but for what you describe as your needs I think it would be a godsend.
BTW the P40+ is no slouch in speed when shooting full resolution going to 34 frames in 30 seconds. You will need the fastest CF cards money can buy to shoot long and fast with a P40+ or P65+ (e.g. SanDisk Extreme Pro)
Doug Peterson ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/)
Buy Capture One at 10% off (http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/)
Personal Work (http://www.doug-peterson.com/)
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STEVE: does phase one give me 7000 instead of not even 3K for my back when buying into their system?? and 2nd do you have the II-5 instock?
Nicolaas:
Yes, this is the case. Phase One is very aggressive on trade-in values, on competitive products, as well as their own. As you could imagine, the value of the trade-in is porportionate to the amount of profit in a given product. So naturally, an Aptus 65 traded in for a P65+ will yield a much higher trade-in amount than say, traded for a P40+ (it's twice the price, after all). Some units won't offer any manufacturer trade-in, like a DM-22 or Aptus II 5, because the price is already quite frugal compared to other digital back products and the profit way less.
But even in those circumstances, we can take in a trade unit from a customer and still give credit for that unit when the manufacturer does not.
We rarely stock digital backs, but custom order and usually can have the unit within 2 days. We also have an ongoing supply of used/trade-in/demo units due to our volume.
http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-on...back-inventory/ (http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/demo-back-inventory/)
Inventory changes frequently.
Steve Hendrix
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When/if I buy the II-5 it is going to be my replacement for the 1ds since the price is close and I don't trade it in but shoot with it till it dies...like with my canon..... and when clients start requesting larger file sizes I would purchase a 2nd back probably the II-7 and would think of this one as an upgradeable investment.
For now I just want to be able to shoot faster with better focusing with medium format and I think that the 5 is the way to go...UNLESS you have "proof" to convince me othewise
AND YES the 22MP was more expensive because of the sensor than the 65..... I am getting old and my memory is slipping!!
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thanks Doug, a lot has changed ... I haven't been keeping up and regret this now, it is like starting over.
That sensor + would be perfect for my personal work when I love to move around a lot and shoot like I am using a film camera LOL.... capturing everything! but the 40+ goes for almost 20k !! don't know if it is just better to get the new canon IV and the aptus II-6 or 7 OR just get the II-5 for everything until I find a need faster (canon) or bigger MP (II-6 or 7)
decisions decisions decisions
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any thoughts yet on the PENTAX 40MP 645D???
I'm sure Phase/Leaf reps do. Something like 'Jeezo, it's half the price of a P40+/Aptus II-8! I hope we're allowed to do some aggressive pricing on our competing backs so that we don't lose potential customers' perhaps?
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I'm sure Phase/Leaf reps do do. Something like 'Jeezo, it's half the price of a P40+/Aptus II-8! I hope we're allowed to do some aggressive pricing on our competing backs so that we don't lose potential customers' perhaps?
On May 20th, 2010, there are going to be some nervous folks in some Scandinavian countries, for sure. You're gonna have sales reps sitting there hitting "Refresh", over and over, waiting for the first test results from the Pentax 645D. Just like Goldman Sachs, they're going to be hoping for bad news.
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I have a hard time believing that pentax is going to have a winner on the first try.
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I have a hard time believing that pentax is going to have a winner on the first try.
I suspect that's exactly what Phase/Leaf are thinking (hoping?) as well!
Given reports trickling out from people who've seen images released so far, allied with the fact that Pentax have a great reputation in the world of MF cameras & lenses, I'm pretty optimistic.
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There is a lot of Pentax glass out there and IMHO, I think that is a great thing for MF in general - better photographic material from those previously on the sidelines.
I am humbled by the difficulties present to produce a modern integrated DSLR system and welcome Pentax to the challenge.
In the end, it brings more choices and that has never proven to be a bad thing. Of course, I am happy to show the fruits of Hasselblad's R&D to those who are interested.
Approach new and old with an open mind, you can learn more by leaving your assumptions and notions behind.
John
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is there any difference between the DM22 back and the leaf aptus-II 5 back..besides the name?? ( I don't think so ... just asking) and is there any difference between the Phase One 645AFD and the Mamiya 645AFDIII (don't think so either, but again want to be sure since I don't have the time nor energy to update again within the next couple of months)
and last..... anybody have an opinion (besides a sales rep trying to make me spend more money) on the 22MP versus the 28MP in real life situations??
Please keep in mind I am a fashion/beauty/swimwear/ lingerie photographer...... in need of speed and more speed.
Is moire a big issue?? I have had issues with it with the 65, so can it get any worse??
thanks
Nicolaas
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is there any difference between the DM22 back and the leaf aptus-II 5 back..besides the name?? ( I don't think so ... just asking) and is there any difference between the Phase One 645AFD and the Mamiya 645AFDIII (don't think so either, but again want to be sure since I don't have the time nor energy to update again within the next couple of months)
and last..... anybody have an opinion (besides a sales rep trying to make me spend more money) on the 22MP versus the 28MP in real life situations??
Please keep in mind I am a fashion/beauty/swimwear/ lingerie photographer...... in need of speed and more speed.
Is moire a big issue?? I have had issues with it with the 65, so can it get any worse??
thanks
Nicolaas
Nicolaas
The DM22 and Aptus II 5 are the same. The Phase One AF and the Mamiya AFDIII are the same - except the Phase One version has an option of a 3 year warranty on the camera and the Phase One lenses come standard with 3 year warranties. The Mamiya branded versions of the same lenses come with one year warranties.
Between 22 and 28, well, 22 is faster. Moire - can it get worse? Ummm....quite possibly. Our experience has shown that more resolution over a similar size imaging surface has a reducing effect on the frequency and the degree of moire. I don't know that there will be a significant difference between a 22MP and 28MP product on that level however due to the random nature of moire. Both are capable of it. I don't think I would base a buying decision on the possibility the 28 might moire just slightly less frequently than the 22. Probably other factor differences are more important for you Nicolaas.
You've been used to the 65, so...the 22 is a bigger sensor, you might like that. And the capture rates are actually pretty close, a tenth of a second apart. You'll lose nearly a stop of usable ISO on the high end with the 22 (if you use that on your 65) but you'll gain a stop on the low end (ISO 25 vs 50). There's a $5,000 difference in price just on the digital backs themselves, but it narrows to a $3,000 difference if bundling the DF/80LS.
Steve Hendrix
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Hi Nicolaas,
I got so fed up with moire with my leaf Aptus 75 that I got a Nikon D3x. Problem solved.
Cheers
Simon
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Hi Nicolaas,
I got so fed up with moire with my leaf Aptus 75 that I got a Nikon D3x. Problem solved.
Cheers
Simon
You traded one problem for another.. soft images.
I hate moire just as much as the next person. They should stop increasing megapixels and just focus on eliminating moire without softening the images. Basically they need to be able to do in a single shot as they have done in a multishot.
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There's a $5,000 difference in price just on the digital backs themselves, but it narrows to a $3,000 difference if bundling the DF/80LS.
Steve Hendrix
[/quote]
Your losing me Steve.... what is a DF/80LS??
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Hi Jonathan,
Sorry to disagree with you but I haven't experienced any soft images with the D3x.
Attached image Nikon D3x and Nikon AF85mm.
Cheers
Simon
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I only had a moire problem 3 of 4 times.... maybe the way I light my stuff... I had the problem a couple of weeks ago on a $750 piece of lingerie...and retouched it...but isn't there a software program to take care of this after the shoot??
when you mean soft images...are you referring to the nikon or leaf??
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Hi Jonathan,
Sorry to disagree with you but I haven't experienced any soft images with the D3x.
Attached image Nikon D3x and Nikon AF85mm.
Cheers
Simon
Nikons and any 35mm are soft because of the anti alias filter to help remove moire.
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I always loved Nikon, but they came to the digital playground way too late with their full size sensor and I couldn't wait any longer so bought the canon 1Ds ..and now have invested in canon lenses and am used to it.
I just can't shoot everything with my 35mm and can't stand the fact that I need a special mask on my viewer to shoot 3/4 format.
Also can't have my client thinking they have the same camera (or as they say...almost!!)
It is all smoke and mirrors.... but when it comes to detail in highlights and shadows you can't compare 35 to medium...and believe me I have been doing it.... because shooting with my canon is soooo freakin easy and I get sooo many more shots where I capture that particular look!!
Maybe when canon comes out with the mark IV they will have 16 bit and the same look and feel..... we'll wait and see...but in the mean time I think the medium is the way to go
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Nikons are soft because of the anti alias filter to help remove moire.
ah...yep read about that, but that can easily be corrected in PS..... of topic.... just oploaded CS5 and the edge refine tool is AMAZING!!!! it actually works!
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ah...yep read about that, but that can easily be corrected in PS..... of topic.... just oploaded CS5 and the edge refine tool is AMAZING!!!! it actually works!
yes you can easily "sharpen" a photograph in PS, but its not the same thing as having an actual sharp photograph to start.
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with the amount of work my images need in post (PS) honestly sharpening is the least of my problems!!
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There's a $5,000 difference in price just on the digital backs themselves, but it narrows to a $3,000 difference if bundling the DF/80LS.
Steve Hendrix
Your losing me Steve.... what is a DF/80LS??
DF/80LS is referring to the Phase One camera and bundled 80mm lens if you bought it as a kit rather than only buying the digital back. If you already have a camera, then no worries.
Steve Hendrix