Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Digital Cameras & Shooting Techniques => Topic started by: feppe on March 18, 2010, 04:12:10 pm
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I'm looking for a second smaller camera to replace my dSLR on motorcycle trips; something not necessarily pocketable but significantly smaller than a prosumer dSLR. I would prefer a system, so I can invest in good lenses and upgrade the body when new generations come.
I would be using the camera with fixed lenses for landscapes and cityscapes, and some portraits. Shooting at base ISO, with substantial amount of low-light photography on tripod, so proper bulb mode and remote control a must. MFT cameras seem like a perfect compromise between IQ, features and size/weight.
On Olympus side the price difference between E-P2 and E-PL1 is quite large, and the differences in features (http://www.crunchgear.com/2010/02/04/the-olympus-e-p2-vs-the-e-pl1/) is small, at least where it matters to me. The only one is the claimed superior image stabilization, 3 stops for the E-PL1 vs. 4 stops for E-P2 as per Olympus specs - but it's certainly not worth several hundred euro.
I have dismissed the Panasonics due to their lack of in-body image stabilization. But the lens selection isn't exactly large for unstabilized MFT lenses so this is not such a limitation as it first appears. The Oly would benefit from IS with off-brand lenses. The G2 will probably be around the price of E-P2 as well, so expensive compared to the E-PL1.
Samsung NX or whatever Sony has in store would be an option but they're not available yet. Lumix LX3 would be a contender if it was available anywhere, and the IQ is poor from the samples I've seen. There are some Ricohs with impressive IQ, but they are limited by either a fixed lens or poor range of their zooms. I'll consider a Leica if I win the lottery.
The Olympus E-PL1 seems like the obvious choice - it's an affordable entry to MFT to see if it's a viable choice for me in the long term, and offers most of the benefits of the format and features of its bigger brother. I'm also considering a 6x9 film folder, but that's a whole different beast.
Anything I've missed?
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I look forward to the responses you get, as I am sort of in the same boat as you. The difference for me, is that I will have the camera converted for infrared. I am also pretty sure MFT is the way to go, but I am having a hard time deciding between the offerings. They all seem to produce excellent results when used correctly (assuming one has realistic expectations and does not expect 52 stops of dynamic range ).
Does SOOC jpeg matter to you, or will you shoot everything in RAW?
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Does SOOC jpeg matter to you, or will you shoot everything in RAW?
Can't imagine using JPEG for any serious shooting, but I do use JPEG for casuals and snapshots at lowest resolution as they don't need any conversion to upload online. For those the built-in "art" filters might actually be useful.
I've never done video, so it might be fun to try that out as well.
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I've already gone through that decision. I got a Fujifilm f30 digicam while back, and later an f200, but the lack of many manual controls, lack of raw, tendency to blow out highlights, and noise (as good as you get in a digicam, but quite disappointing compared with a DSLR) caused me to never be all that happy with them. Then I just recently got an M4/3 Panasonic (the GH1) with the stabilized 14-140mm lens, and I'm currently learning to use it. So far, I'm quite happy with it. I compared a couple of equivalent shots with it and with my Nikon DSLR with a similar zoom lens, and the Panasonic has *very nearly* as good IQ in decent light. I haven't tried it in very low light yet. It seems to have all the manual controls of my DSLR (except mirror lock-up ). The focus speed is surprisingly close to that of my DSLR, too, something that reviews for many of the other small cameras have complained about.
Lisa
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It seems to have all the manual controls of my DSLR (except mirror lock-up ).
Now that right there is some funny stuff.
I am leaning towards the GF1 with the 7-14mm zoom and the 20mm pancake. Since I'll be converting it to IR, I don't really see using it for much other than landscapes anyways so I don't think I need anything longer. On the other hand, I would like to wait until the M. Zuiko 9-18mm zoom is out, as that could be a nice compact one-lens solution for me.
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I love my G1. So I think you're on the right track with m43.
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I'm waiting for the Samsung NX10 with the 30mm pancake.
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Motorcycle trip photography is a challenge. I've done several motorcyce magazine articles with simple cameras and no complaints from readers or picture editors.
This new Sony is interesting. I don't see RAW, though. Some of the other features may compensate.
Sony Cyber-shot DSC-HX5
http://www.photographyblog.com/news/sony_cyber-shot_dsc-hx5/ (http://www.photographyblog.com/news/sony_cyber-shot_dsc-hx5/)
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I was looking for the same thing. I take motorcycle trips and like to shoot even while riding. I used a Canon G10 last year and found it to be just ok in the image department.
I just picked up the Panasonic GF1 with the 20mm pancake. I hear rumors of a 14mm pancake being released sometime this summer.
Check out this guy's blog. He on a bicycle traveling in Mexico and shoots the the panasonic. IMO, the pictures look very good.
Good luck,
Bob
http://whileoutriding.wordpress.com/ (http://whileoutriding.wordpress.com/)
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I was looking for the same thing. I take motorcycle trips and like to shoot even while riding. I used a Canon G10 last year and found it to be just ok in the image department.
I just picked up the Panasonic GF1 with the 20mm pancake. I hear rumors of a 14mm pancake being released sometime this summer.
Check out this guy's blog. He on a bicycle traveling in Mexico and shoots the the panasonic. IMO, the pictures look very good.
Good luck,
Bob
http://whileoutriding.wordpress.com/ (http://whileoutriding.wordpress.com/)
That looks promising indeed.
I ordered the E-PL1 with the kit 14-42mm lens, and the Panasonic 14-45mm as it's significantly better according to dpreview test (http://www.dpreview.com/lensreviews/widget/Fullscreen.ashx?reviews=58,61&fullscreen=true&av=3.667,5&fl=14,45&vis=VisualiserSharpnessMTF,VisualiserSharpnessMTF&stack=horizontal&&config=LensReviewConfiguration.xml%3F2). I'll try out the panny lens and send it back if it doesn't outperform the oly. Still on the fence about the 20mm prime, will see if the zooms are good enough first.
Too bad there are only a few MFT primes, and nothing at the wide end. There's a superwide 9-18mm oly lens coming in May, though - hopefully it has better IQ than the kit lens.
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There's an incredible motorcycle touring site--California based, but with input world wide.
It's www.pashnit.com He's passionate about motorcycles. Great photos there for us twisty road enthusiasts.
I'm a has-been motorcyclist but like the same roads.
Last October toured Newfoundland with my DSLR and G9 in our 911. Not much room for gear. Sold the 911. Bought more gear.
I used my G9 more than my dslr. It was always handy. Wore a Scottevest the whole time with the G9 stashed in a pocket.
Since then I've bought a G11, trading my G9. regret that, except I like the tilt-out screen.
When Ihad problems with my first G11 I bought a little Pany--ZS3 IIRC. It's the one that Michael reported on as a daily journal camera. Had lots of fun with the 25-300 lens; needs an extra battery or two. The screen washes out in bright light (skiing for instance.)
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Motorcycle trip photography is a challenge. I've done several motorcyce magazine articles with simple cameras and no complaints from readers or picture editors.
This new Sony is interesting. I don't see RAW, though. Some of the other features may compensate.
Sony Cyber-shot DSC-HX5
http://www.photographyblog.com/news/sony_cyber-shot_dsc-hx5/ (http://www.photographyblog.com/news/sony_cyber-shot_dsc-hx5/)
This was taken a couple of weeks ago from my motorcycle at about 60 mph with the GF1 and 20mm pancake. I'm sort of a beginner compared to most people here, but on my monitor and an 8x10 or less it looks, (to me) great.
(http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p109/jzzmusician/mike1-copy.jpg)
I am however, pretty excited about the new Sony Nex 3/5 cameras.
Bob
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As the camera market stands today I'd go with the Olympus EP-2 (with EVF) and the Panasonic 14-45 (not the brand new 14-42) as a basic starter kit. Olympus are going to be announcing new primes and zooms later in the year (and rumoured is a high end m4/3 body), but pick and choose and you can get a good selection of lenses already to fill out the standard zoom. The Olympus 9-18mm and Panasonic 45-200mm are excellent lenses for example.
Steve
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I'm a hiker so both size and weight are important. I've tried several compacts but for me, having a viewfinder is essential. Using an LCD screen in daylight to compose a photo is an exercise in frustration and it shows in the results.
I have been using a Panny G1 for 18 months. At first I thought the electronic viewfinder was a drawback, but now that I am accustomed to it and understand it, I love it. The viewfinder on my Nikon now feels strange because it gives me so little feedback. The G1 is reasonably rugged, it has survived several falls and has been fairly wet several times. The image quality is good enough, although I wish it had better dynamic range. I keep looking at alternatives, but so far nothing beats the G1 for my needs. I find that the 14-45mm zoom and the 20mm pancake are all I use. The 45-200 is a good lens, but I don't use it much.
Any choice when constrained by size and weight will be a compromise.
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Why not a Leica X1? The best travel-camera ever! Taken as Jpegs, almost "point-and-shoot" mode (mostly AV f/5.6-8, -1/3 EV compenation), very little editing in PS needed!
Check the images here:
http://nordiskfoto.zenfolio.com/p619664384 (http://nordiskfoto.zenfolio.com/p619664384)
http://nordiskfoto.zenfolio.com/p997744703 (http://nordiskfoto.zenfolio.com/p997744703)
http://nordiskfoto.zenfolio.com/p584936775 (http://nordiskfoto.zenfolio.com/p584936775)
Enjoy.
Andrzej
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Why not a Leica X1? The best travel-camera ever! Taken as Jpegs, almost "point-and-shoot" mode (mostly AV f/5.6-8, -1/3 EV compenation), very little editing in PS needed!
Check the images here:
http://nordiskfoto.zenfolio.com/p619664384 (http://nordiskfoto.zenfolio.com/p619664384)
http://nordiskfoto.zenfolio.com/p997744703 (http://nordiskfoto.zenfolio.com/p997744703)
http://nordiskfoto.zenfolio.com/p584936775 (http://nordiskfoto.zenfolio.com/p584936775)
Enjoy.
Andrzej
At the small size we see these images, they are not useful for evaluating the X1`s capabilities. They are lovely images, a testament to your skill, but they don;t tell us much about the camera.
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At the small size we see these images, they are not useful for evaluating the X1`s capabilities. They are lovely images, a testament to your skill, but they don;t tell us much about the camera.
What MORE would you like to know about the camera? There are a few pixel-peeping reviews and lots of users´comments on the internet. You have access to all technical specs. As ANY camera it has its limitations and weak spots. Subjectively I can assure you that the print quality, up to A3, is breathtaking. Noise is controllable up to 800 ISO and AF is sufficient for "travel photography". What is extraordinary about the camera is this special Leica-glow you get that you cannnot replicate with PS tweaks, apart from great colour and contrast. In this aspect the camera easily compares to my Canon 5D MkII with Canon 24-105/4L IS - my "main outfit".
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I know I'm coming late to the micro-4/3 party, but my Canon G-7 died last weekend, and I was leaving the next day for a hiking trip. Luckily I was in a city with a camera store (Penn Camera in Tyson's Corner, VA), and they had a wide selection. I went down there pretty much ready to buy a G-11, but not really happy with that choice. So I looked at the S90, the G-11, and also the Olympus Pen and the Panasonic GF-1. I've never been particularly happy with image quality from any p+s camera, but there are plenty of situations when I don't want to carry a DSLR.
So I ended up lightly melting my credit card to buy the GF-1 and the 20/1.7 lens. Went home and shot some test photos, opened them up on my laptop, and wow -- I was surprised at the image quality at ISO 400 and 800. Opening the same photo from the G-7 at ISO 400 was a joke. Very nice. That 20mm lens is brutally sharp, with a really nice fade into the out of focus areas at f/2 or so. Great for candid people photography. Reminds me of a Leica CL with the 40/2. It's a focal length that I like.
To make this landscape related, here is a handheld 5-frame stitched pano from the Appalachian Trail just north of the James River in central Virginia, USA. The trail climbs 2500 feet in less than 5 miles, though that understates the difficulty of the climb in 90+ degree temps and carrying a full pack. This view is from the top, looking east.
[attachment=23069:james_ri...pano_web.jpg]
The GF-1/20mm strikes me as a good choice for a carry-around camera (it's lived in a small waist pack for more than a week, always ready), more so if one likes that focal length, of course. The RAW files are very nice and easy to work with in the latest ACR.
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I know I'm coming late to the micro-4/3 party, but my Canon G-7 died last weekend, and I was leaving the next day for a hiking trip. Luckily I was in a city with a camera store (Penn Camera in Tyson's Corner, VA), and they had a wide selection. I went down there pretty much ready to buy a G-11, but not really happy with that choice. So I looked at the S90, the G-11, and also the Olympus Pen and the Panasonic GF-1. I've never been particularly happy with image quality from any p+s camera, but there are plenty of situations when I don't want to carry a DSLR.
So I ended up lightly melting my credit card to buy the GF-1 and the 20/1.7 lens. Went home and shot some test photos, opened them up on my laptop, and wow -- I was surprised at the image quality at ISO 400 and 800. Opening the same photo from the G-7 at ISO 400 was a joke. Very nice. That 20mm lens is brutally sharp, with a really nice fade into the out of focus areas at f/2 or so. Great for candid people photography. Reminds me of a Leica CL with the 40/2. It's a focal length that I like.
To make this landscape related, here is a handheld 5-frame stitched pano from the Appalachian Trail just north of the James River in central Virginia, USA. The trail climbs 2500 feet in less than 5 miles, though that understates the difficulty of the climb in 90+ degree temps and carrying a full pack. This view is from the top, looking east.
[attachment=23069:james_ri...pano_web.jpg]
The GF-1/20mm strikes me as a good choice for a carry-around camera (it's lived in a small waist pack for more than a week, always ready), more so if one likes that focal length, of course. The RAW files are very nice and easy to work with in the latest ACR.
Yeah, it's an old topic, and I got a Olympus E-PL1 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=42511). I'm considering getting the 20mm pancake and 45mm macro, but just got back from a trip and I'm having hard time believing how good the quality of the 14-45mm panny lens is. The 13x19" of the photo below looks as good as many cropped sensor dSLR shots. Have you compared the kit zoom with the 20mm?
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Hi, feppe,
I haven't tested the Panasonic zoom lens with actual photos. I tried it in the store, and it's just too big for what I want in a carry-around camera. (If I want zoom range and all that, I have my choice of digital and film SLRs.) The 20mm fits what I want -- it's a focal length that I like, it's small, and very fast and very sharp. Having only a single focal length simplifies my shooting in a way that I like.
I'll wait to see if the 14mm/2.8 pancake shows up -- that will be very tempting. A fast 45 or 50mm lens for portraits would be nice, too, though I suppose I could use my Canon 50/1.4 on an adapter.
But for now, I'm very happy with the camera as a waist-pack carry-around model. I can walk on the beach and shoot something interesting without carrying a big camera bag, and without worrying about image quality.
[attachment=23073:P1000408_ss.jpg]
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Have you compared the kit zoom with the 20mm?
The 20mm Pancake is a bit sharper in the center (the difference is much smaller than for example the dpreview tests suggest), has much better corners and significantly better micro contrast (compared on a E-P1). From 20mm to 33mm, the Oly 14-42mm is surprisingly good. (The Pancake does best at f2.8 - f4.)
A Zeiss 28mm f2.8 Distagon is FAR better than the 14-42mm, the difference in fine detail / micro contrast is quite big (much bigger than the difference between the Pancake and the Zoom).
-- Tilo
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Tough call- so many first-generation mini cameras out there... you never know if just around the bend someone is going to come out with a "category killer" system with no compromises.
That said, I think the best option is the Sony NEX-3 with 16mm 2.8 pancake. If you need a viewfinder, then this isn't your camera, but I've always thought viewfinders a hindrance in landscape & architecture work (thats an opinion, not a declaration!). The Sony swivel screen is impressive and very high quality for a camera LCD (if not so great in direct sunlight).
There's no in-body stabilization, but apparently the lSO sensitivity beats the competitors by a stop or two, so its a toss-up.
On the negative side, the camera interface is... worse then bad. But once you figure out how to quickly adjust the manual settings, its less of a problem.
If you are willing to pay $100 for a better grip and metal construction, then buy the NEX-5.
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Tough call- so many first-generation mini cameras out there... you never know if just around the bend someone is going to come out with a "category killer" system with no compromises.
That said, I think the best option is the Sony NEX-3 with 16mm 2.8 pancake. If you need a viewfinder, then this isn't your camera, but I've always thought viewfinders a hindrance in landscape & architecture work (thats an opinion, not a declaration!). The Sony swivel screen is impressive and very high quality for a camera LCD (if not so great in direct sunlight).
There's no in-body stabilization, but apparently the lSO sensitivity beats the competitors by a stop or two, so its a toss-up.
On the negative side, the camera interface is... worse then bad. But once you figure out how to quickly adjust the manual settings, its less of a problem.
If you are willing to pay $100 for a better grip and metal construction, then buy the NEX-5.
I just put my M8 up on ebay, but I have mint Zeiss ZM 21mm f2.8 and 35mm f2 lenses. I was thinking of holding on to these with the idea of using an adapter and eventually getting a small mirrorless camera and using them. Anyone have any similar experience? What camera did you adapt to? Somewhat off topic...I appologize.
Thanks in advance
Dave
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I'm looking for a second smaller camera to replace my dSLR on motorcycle trips; something not necessarily pocketable but significantly smaller than a prosumer dSLR. I would prefer a system, so I can invest in good lenses and upgrade the body when new generations come.
I would be using the camera with fixed lenses for landscapes and cityscapes, and some portraits. Shooting at base ISO, with substantial amount of low-light photography on tripod, so proper bulb mode and remote control a must. MFT cameras seem like a perfect compromise between IQ, features and size/weight.
On Olympus side the price difference between E-P2 and E-PL1 is quite large, and the differences in features (http://www.crunchgear.com/2010/02/04/the-olympus-e-p2-vs-the-e-pl1/) is small, at least where it matters to me. The only one is the claimed superior image stabilization, 3 stops for the E-PL1 vs. 4 stops for E-P2 as per Olympus specs - but it's certainly not worth several hundred euro.
I have dismissed the Panasonics due to their lack of in-body image stabilization. But the lens selection isn't exactly large for unstabilized MFT lenses so this is not such a limitation as it first appears. The Oly would benefit from IS with off-brand lenses. The G2 will probably be around the price of E-P2 as well, so expensive compared to the E-PL1.
Samsung NX or whatever Sony has in store would be an option but they're not available yet. Lumix LX3 would be a contender if it was available anywhere, and the IQ is poor from the samples I've seen. There are some Ricohs with impressive IQ, but they are limited by either a fixed lens or poor range of their zooms. I'll consider a Leica if I win the lottery.
The Olympus E-PL1 seems like the obvious choice - it's an affordable entry to MFT to see if it's a viable choice for me in the long term, and offers most of the benefits of the format and features of its bigger brother. I'm also considering a 6x9 film folder, but that's a whole different beast.
Anything I've missed?
Panasonic LX-5 ?!
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I just put up some pictures and a brief first-impressions of the NEX-5 on the TactlessTech blog.
http://tactlesstech.wordpress.com/2010/07/...the-sony-nex-5/ (http://tactlesstech.wordpress.com/2010/07/22/a-little-landscape-with-the-sony-nex-5/)
I came away impressed with the camera style. The tilting hi-res LCD made waist-level and overhead shooting much easier. My main issue is with the apparent IQ from the 16mm lens.
Since it is a interchangeable lens system however, there might be hope. Even from MemoryStickMiniDiskBetaMax Sony.
UPDATE: This sounds like a great idea (Leica lens on Sony NEX), but again, the Manual Focus on all of these LCD viewfinder cameras is a bit of a bear.
http://www.cosina.co.jp/seihin/voigt/acce/adapter/e-vm.html (http://www.cosina.co.jp/seihin/voigt/acce/adapter/e-vm.html)
[attachment=23266:DSC00028.jpg]
[attachment=23267:redchairs.jpg]
[attachment=23268:PepsiJunction.jpg]
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I've had the Lumix LX3 for nearly a year now and am quite impressed with the image quality and the overall camera capability and performance. I considered the 4/3 stuff, but for me, i'd not invest a constant stream of money in a system of camera and who knows how many accessories (lenses and whatever else appears) on a technology that while it will grow, will always stay a step behind DSLR systems. Sure, it's about the upgrade process, but my feeling is i dont want to upgrade down that path.
part of that is budget related. im not in a position to invest money in two different, but very close in terms of image quality, technology paths at the same time. part of that is also self-justification post-purchase of the panasonic camera.
i think the review on this site nails it pretty well. i actually had not read it before purchasing and using the camera for a few months. a big selling point was how fast the lens is. so i decided to use this camera while budgeting for going straight to digital medium format. i really dont feel like i need anything in between the two. as background, i have never owned a DSLR.
and the proof's in the pudding. the attached is a completely unedited, but cropped for composition, jpeg done in the camera, taken in fully automatic mode. i can easily take the companion raw file, fiddle and enlarge to 17x24ish. i've been printing mostly at 13x19. there's a little bit of fixing required in the blue sky here, but nothing a little luminance smoothing wont fix in Camera Raw. at 8x10 or smaller, or sharing via the web, this is not necessary.
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Hi! Your analysis is all the way correct, and very cogent. The only serious options you have not mentioned are:
1. The Olympus DSLR line is extremely compact and the price is very reasonable. You get an articulated viewing screen and a 18-55 equivalent lens for about $475. and;
2. The Panasonic or Canon pocket cameras that shoot RAW and have high quality lenses built in. The current Panasonic model is LX-3. It has been replaced by the LX- which is announced but not yet shipped. LX-3s are for sale in my local retail store for $350. Amazon lists the LX-5 for pre-order at $500. The Canon S-90 is seriously competitive but I personally prefer the LX-3. The LX-5 is all about incremental product improvements, mostly in the sensor for ISO performance and dynamic range. The number of megapixels and the physical dimensions of the new LX-5 sensor are the same.
I personally own the LX-3 ad am very pleased with it for small portable carry when a DSLR is "too much". I posted a few example shots when the LX-3 was still new to me here if you want to see: http://www.pbase.com/goodlistener/panasoniccameraexamples (http://www.pbase.com/goodlistener/panasoniccameraexamples)