Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: dseelig on March 09, 2010, 12:12:58 am
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According to the online photographer, I hope os though I own a contax 645 the rollie 6008 was a great camera the hy 6 seems great too.
http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/t...blog_index.html (http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/blog_index.html)
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According to the online photographer, I hope os though I won a contax 645 the rollie 6008 was a great camera the hy 6 seems great too.
http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/t...blog_index.html (http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/blog_index.html)
The Hy6 was a great camera but I don't think this new company has the rights to make it I believe those rights belong to Leaf (Yair?). I'm pretty sure this new company will be more about support vis a vis the Hy6.
Nick-T
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The Hy6 was a great camera but I don't think this new company has the rights to make it I believe those rights belong to Leaf (Yair?). I'm pretty sure this new company will be more about support vis a vis the Hy6.
Nick-T
I've heard so many different takes on who owns the rights that I've concluded that there must be different pieces of the pie, or puzzle to divide up. In any case as a rollei user, I am thrilled.
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Kodak had the rights, last I'd heard...
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Kodak had the rights, last I'd heard...
I heard a lot of rumour's, thate the right owner is:
Sinar
Jenoptics
Franke & Heidecke
DHW
Kodak
Leaf - Phase One
Some new unmarked versions?
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Probably all three groups still has remaining inventory of the Hy6/AFi so who knows if the rights issues even apply at the moment but maybe they got it worked out. The only one I wonder about is Phase - what are they thinking by not getting a back on the AFi / Hy6?
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Probably all three groups still has remaining inventory of the Hy6/AFi so who knows if the rights issues even apply at the moment but maybe they got it worked out. The only one I wonder about is Phase - what are they thinking by not getting a back on the AFi / Hy6?
Probably they sucrificed the AFI, for Phase one 645 market extension.
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As I've followed the saga, F&H sold the rights to Jenoptik in exchange for funds to finish development of the Hy6 and orders for it. Sinar was wholly owned by Jenoptik, but never held the rights to manufacture themselves.
When F&H collapsed, Jenoptik sold the manufacturing rights to Kodak (!).
Sinar was also spun off. By all accounts significant inventory remains with Sinar and presumably with F&H, so manufacturing may not be an issue, but if all the insolvency issues weren't enough to scare away buyers, being apparently limited to existing inventories seems to be yet another mark against them.
IMHO, this may have represented an opportunity for Phase years ago, but with them so heavily invested in Mamiya, I think they now must remain firmly behind the horse they got into bed with (whoops, it seems I may have mixed my metaphors!)
Too bad, though--the Hy6 was my favorite camera in MF (and I owned them all--the Mamiya just didn't compare). With a Phase back I'd probably still be using it today, instead of having gone to Canon. I feel this was a missed opportunity for everyone.
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DHW Fototechnik started as the successor to the insolvent Franke & Heidecke. Currently with a staff of 30, and with the intention to bring that up to around 50 by this year's end. Contrary to rumors, Franke & Heidecke has always been continuing its business during the period of insolvency, and DHW Fototechnik just continued that path. I have personal good experience with this both last and this year. According to German internet magazine Photoscala new manufacturing is mainly related to twin-lens reflex cameras and, on demand, the Rollei 35 Classic, as well as slide projectors and electronic shutters. Additionally to that, I should add that both the Hy6 camera, lenses and accessories are available and can be ordered. The Hy6 cameras are from current stock. Servicing is fully available, including e.g. firmware updates on the Hy6 / AFi bodies.
As to ownership, I believe that the intellectual ownership of the Hy6 / AFi currently lies with PhaseOne in the context of the take-over of the old Leaf assets. Regrettably as it would mean that there is little incentive to further develop the system given the direct competition with in-house Phamiya systems. The new Sinar company has stated its commitment to support the Hy6 / AFi systems, and this is in addition to DHW Fototechnik.
Bottom line, if one wishes a Hy6 / AFi system, there should be no reason not to do so. Leaf AFi backs can still be found, and Sinar continues to sell new eMotion and eSprit digital backs. Furthermore it is the intention of DHW Fototechnik to bring the 6x6 film magazine to market in time for Photokina 2010. That would be great for all classic MF photographers who prefer square pictures.
Pascal
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Probably they sucrificed the AFI, for Phase one 645 market extension.
You mean for financial considerations.......?
Steve Hendrix
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You mean for financial considerations.......?
Steve Hendrix
I was wondering about this - seems like the development cost was not a burden Phase assumed when buying Leaf and they already built the capability into their software to handle the Leaf files - so what's to loose by offering another camera and lens platform choice to their customers?
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I was wondering about this - seems like the development cost was not a burden Phase assumed when buying Leaf and they already built the capability into their software to handle the Leaf files - so what's to loose by offering another camera and lens platform choice to their customers?
Offering a product is not without costs.
I don't know that it would not have been considered.
But taking into account the situation with F&H and the costs involved with attaining machining and production capabilities, working out designs on future products (remember, not all announced lenses were produced), the general uncertain market of the camera itself - remember despite the glowing reviews, unit sales were underwhelming - all combined with the fact the lenses were generally a good 40% higher than other brands (Thierry-alert), I find the tone of how Phase is seen as taking away the camera mind boggling.
It's why I underscored the financial aspect of the situation. I am sure if there was a clear path that someone could see where the AFi camera could be a profitable venture without harming other profitable ventures, and thus the company as a whole, it would have been considered seriously.
The fact it was not indicates clearly to me, that in the judgement of Phase One this was not possible.
Just my speculative opinion. I actually sold an AFi 10 camera last month.
Loved the camera. Showed it to people who also loved the camera.
Steve Hendrix
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But still if Phase can continue to offer solutions for contax 645, it seems like they could offer a back for the Hy6/AFi. I get what you write about tooling up for production of new cameras and lenses, but Phase wouldn't necessarily have to get involved in the restart of the whole production.
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But there are thousands of Contax still in use around the world, while only a few hundred Hy6 should have been build. Developing the connection of back and body is not for free - so I doubt that this makes sense for them. Unfortunately.
From what I read in articles, interviews and so on, Phase obviously thought about what to do with Hy6. For them it made more sense to kill it, but keep the techniques inside. Who knows, maybe we see rotating sensors/backs in a future Phamiya-body?
Andreas
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It's why I underscored the financial aspect of the situation. I am sure if there was a clear path that someone could see where the AFi camera could be a profitable venture without harming other profitable ventures, and thus the company as a whole, it would have been considered seriously.
Steve Hendrix
Hi Steve,
you say it indeed: "without harming other profitable ventures"... Obviously the AFi would have hurt the Phamiya sales, even if the volumes are low. After all, MF is a low volume market and every unit sold counts. I think that PhaseOne wanted to safeguard its own investments into the Mamiya system, expanding market share to capture the Leaf digital backs and its customer base, profit from AFi product developments to be used in future Phamiya products, and kill off at the same time a competitor. Makes business sense, but it is highly regrettable in particular when the intellectual property right is owned by them, which complicates others that want to be involved in the system.
Pascal
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From what I read in articles, interviews and so on, Phase obviously thought about what to do with Hy6. For them it made more sense to kill it, but keep the techniques inside. Who knows, maybe we see rotating sensors/backs in a future Phamiya-body?
Andreas
Hi Andreas,
I follow your thoughts and it is indeed what PhaseOne has already indicated it would do, i.e. incorporating AFi techniques in future Phamiya product developments. But, frankly speaking, would you buy into that system even if rotating backs were offered? I am afraid the whole Phamiya system would have to be revamped seriously to lure me into it. Others' mileage may vary, of course. So, if for some reason in (a long away) future I am forced to abandon the Hy6 / AFi systems, I would most likely go for the other major MF brand rather than Phamiya.
PS I do not believe a rotating back makes much sense with 645 MF cameras. A rotating back makes most sense with square format 6x6 MF cameras.
Pascal
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But there are thousands of Contax still in use around the world, while only a few hundred Hy6 should have been build. Developing the connection of back and body is not for free - so I doubt that this makes sense for them. Unfortunately.
From what I read in articles, interviews and so on, Phase obviously thought about what to do with Hy6. For them it made more sense to kill it, but keep the techniques inside. Who knows, maybe we see rotating sensors/backs in a future Phamiya-body?
Andreas
My understanding is that there are hundreds if not more of AFi and Hy6 bodies on the shelves of Leaf, Sinar and DHW together. I wonder how many new contax bodies you are going to find?
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My understanding is that there are hundreds if not more of AFi and Hy6 bodies on the shelves of Leaf, Sinar and DHW together. I wonder how many new contax bodies you are going to find?
A supplier in Germany said that 500 Hy6 were sold in the first two months - in Germany. It probably wasn't matched elsewhere, as cost and distribution was bottled up - and add to that some corporate confusion between all the players, and it wasn't a stellar start. Could it be as simple as a bunch of players trying to get together and make something happen, but without enough muscle to pull it off? Interesting venture, interesting product. Definately not mainstream, but worthwhile.
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But, frankly speaking, would you buy into that system even if rotating backs were offered?
Well - I really don't know. I had a Hy6 for one weekend, never tried anything else. So it would be judging by picture of a camera - unfair for me! But at least it would make it easier to shoot vertically :-) For me a MF-system MUST give a WLF - that's why a took a look to Hy6, nobody else there (when this idea came over me F&H was still there, so the system was living).
PS I do not believe a rotating back makes much sense with 645 MF cameras. A rotating back makes most sense with square format 6x6 MF cameras.
Well - you only need different body (bigger mirror, groundglas - you are right, this gives a 6x6). The lenses always give a circle, so there is no difference. So only reason to build a 645-body is to make is cheaper (a less weight, OK). And seeing the price tags some hundred € more for the body is not really an issue... So Phamiya could build such a body (maybe additionally to the existing line). On the other hand: market is small, so economically this might be nonsense.
Andreas
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Well - you only need different body (bigger mirror, groundglas - you are right, this gives a 6x6). The lenses always give a circle, so there is no difference. So only reason to build a 645-body is to make is cheaper (a less weight, OK). And seeing the price tags some hundred € more for the body is not really an issue... So Phamiya could build such a body (maybe additionally to the existing line). On the other hand: market is small, so economically this might be nonsense.
Andreas
Not so simple. Bigger size (6x6) also means bigger lenses. I doubt it if lenses for 645 systems would work for 6x6.
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Well - I really don't know. I had a Hy6 for one weekend, never tried anything else. So it would be judging by picture of a camera - unfair for me! But at least it would make it easier to shoot vertically :-)
Nothing easier than switching the back or the internal sensor while keeping the camera in the same position :-) Have you ever tried to use a Hasselblad H series vertically in combination with a larger lens? Not the best situation.
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Not so simple. Bigger size (6x6) also means bigger lenses. I doubt it if lenses for 645 systems would work for 6x6.
Sorry, you misunderstood - of course 6x6 requires other lenses. But if you only turn a 645-sensor, that's no problem for the lens as the lens always produces a round picture. So turning a 645-sensor should be easy - but a square 56x56mm² sensor would not work. But I don't see such a sensor at the horizon (mainly because there is simply no camera around to use it, expect Hassy 500 and Hy6...).
Andreas
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if you want to know who stirred up the rollei pot (franke & heidecke) check out this web site. make sure you do an english version and pay attention to who the parent company is.
http://www.rollei-metric.com/ (http://www.rollei-metric.com/)
after reaching this check out the products section
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Yeah - check out this camera with rollei shutter adapter and phase p65+ That would be interesting!
http://www.rollei-metric.com/uploads/files...al%20Camera.pdf (http://www.rollei-metric.com/uploads/files/prospekte/Trimble%20Aerial%20Camera.pdf)
But wasn't rollei-metric was spun off during one of the previous dips Rollei made into insolvency? I don't think there is a connection.
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if you want to know who stirred up the rollei pot (franke & heidecke) check out this web site. make sure you do an english version and pay attention to who the parent company is.
http://www.rollei-metric.com/ (http://www.rollei-metric.com/)
after reaching this check out the products section
When I visited Franke & Heidecke in Summer 2008 both F&H and Rollei Metric were in the same building, but other than that there is no formal link between the two that I know of. Am not sure what point you are trying to make.
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When I visited Franke & Heidecke in Summer 2008 both F&H and Rollei Metric were in the same building, but other than that there is no formal link between the two that I know of. Am not sure what point you are trying to make.
RolleiMetric may have once been part of F&H, but it is a completely separate company now. It was actually resold to and large American GPS company called Trimble:
http://www.trimble.com/news/release.aspx?id=091708a (http://www.trimble.com/news/release.aspx?id=091708a)