Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: fredjeang on March 04, 2010, 08:48:29 am
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Hi,
-Anybody actually works with the Sinar m camera?
I would like to have some informations-impressions from the field. About also the possibility to actually extend the modular system to a view camera.
-And what about Sinar digital backs like the 65LV? it seems that they have a wide range of adapters. I do not know any user to ask for and reviews are rare.
Thank you very much.
Fred.
edit --------I just saw the prices, they are crazy!!! not worth the interest?-----------but I'm surprised that we do not hear more about Sinar digital backs in the MFD forum. Wonder why.
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It is kind of like a unicorn... everybody knows about them, very few have actually ever seen one.
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I think 'ynp' on this forum has/had a Sinar M.
Kumar
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Hi,
-Anybody actually works with the Sinar m camera?
I would like to have some informations-impressions from the field. About also the possibility to actually extend the modular system to a view camera.
-And what about Sinar digital backs like the 65LV? it seems that they have a wide range of adapters. I do not know any user to ask for and reviews are rare.
Thank you very much.
Fred.
edit --------I just saw the prices, they are crazy!!! not worth the interest?-----------but I'm surprised that we do not hear more about Sinar digital backs in the MFD forum. Wonder why.
I don't own one but I see it in action a few times, very close. It is a beautiful camera, actually the concept is quite good, but somehow not well PR so it did not reach to a very wide spectrum of customers, the lens selection is not very big but enough for many high end works. From the images I saw from this camera, easily comparable to the best.
Sinar does provide a wide range of adapter to make their backs acceptable to a large range of camera, if I am not mistaken, perhaps the widest range of cameras and platforms.
Regards,K
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I think 'ynp' on this forum has/had a Sinar M.
Kumar
Yes, we have two Sinar-M systems here. One is the Sinar-M on the p3 (with the p2 base) and a full AF system with the second M body.
The M is relatively cheap secondhand, CAB lenses (for P3) are being sold for $1,000-1,500.
And I cannot find a reason to upgrade from my 54H, it works, it delivers real colors in 4 shot mode, it is stable,
and I do not print A1 or bigger.
Please PM if you have any questions.
Yevgeny
PS
And the Zeiss AF lenses are fantastic!!!
I wonder why Sinar cannot manufacture an electronic adapter to mount the AF lenses on the s2?
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Hi,
So if I understand well, finding a second hand m, then a 54 22MP back, a Sinaron zeiss and mirror module and you have a kind of MFD-FF that delivers a better IQ than any current FF camera? And for a "decent" price?
What I do not catch is the possibility to use Nikon 35mm lenses...does that makes sense?
[attachment=20688:11791683...inar_m_b.jpg]
But, beautifull, isn't it?
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I doubt it will be for a decent price since the M always commanded quite a hefty price. If (and this is a big if) you can find all of these secondhand I wonder if you would not be better and even cheaper off buying the cheapest current P1 or Hasselblad solution.
The M could take a module for Nikon F lenses. That is how it could be used with those. This module is now no longer in production. During the period MF backs came in 24x36 format this did make sense. BTW even larger sensors can use 35mm lenses. The image circle of many of them is larger than necessary or 35mm.
Another thing you could look into is the DigiFlex II. It takes V-mount backs and Nikon F lenses (not the G-type).
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I have two Sinar m, too. One on my Sinar p3 with the Sinarback 54H and one with the mirror module, the Sinarback eMotion 54LV and the 4 Zeiss AF lenses.
The advantage is the changeable viewfinder and that you can focus the AF lenses over the MacBook. And you have a back up body when you have 2 bodies, because the m body for the view camera and for the SLR camera are the same.
The tilt and swing axles are with the m body on the p3 (not on the p2) correct, and they are displayed in the LiveView. You have a LiveView button on the sinar m to switch it on and off. The big advantage of the p3 with sinar m over the p3 without sinar m, but with CMV lenses is that you have auto aperture.
The sinar m as SLR has focus bracketing, focus trap and you can justify the AF lenses in the menu of the sinar m.
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I have two Sinar m, too. One on my Sinar p3 with the Sinarback 54H and one with the mirror module, the Sinarback eMotion 54LV and the 4 Zeiss AF lenses.
The advantage is the changeable viewfinder and that you can focus the AF lenses over the MacBook. And you have a back up body when you have 2 bodies, because the m body for the view camera and for the SLR camera are the same.
The tilt and swing axles are with the m body on the p3 (not on the p2) correct, and they are displayed in the LiveView. You have a LiveView button on the sinar m to switch in on and off. The big advantage of the p3 with sinar m over the p3 without sinar m, but with CMV lenses is that you have auto aperture.
The sinar m as SLR has focus bracketing, focus trap and you can justify the AF lenses in the menu of the sinar m.
Hi Christopher,
Is there a Sinar M guide for download from the Internet, which describes in deep details these and all other functions (how to use focus bracketing, focus trap and justify the AF lenses, etc)?
It seems that only the way to master the camera - is by experience, mostly via Capture Shop user interface..
Thanks
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Hi Christopher,
Is there a Sinar M guide for download from the Internet, which describes in deep details these and all other functions (how to use focus bracketing, focus trap and justify the AF lenses, etc)?
It seems that only the way to master the camera - is by experience, mostly via Capture Shop user interface..
Thanks
Hi evgeny,
I just uploaded a german guide to my Server. Here's the link:
http://www.arnoldi-design.com/97_0_kurzanl..._sinar_m_de.pdf (http://www.arnoldi-design.com/97_0_kurzanleitung_sinar_m_de.pdf)
The philosphy from Sinar is, that you have to ask a rep. for deeper details.
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Here's the Sinar m with the new left side battery grip. And an other picture to illustrate the dimensions.
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Thanks for the pdf, I could not find that in the Sinar web.
Does the M accepts others backs than Sinars?
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Thanks for the pdf, I could not find that in the Sinar web.
Does the M accepts others backs than Sinars?
That makes no sense. One feature of the Sinarback eMotion: when you push the off button on the back, the Sinar m turns off, too. The Sinar m takes over the ISO from the back. With an other back you can't use all features of the Sinar m.
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With the Sinar tripod adapter plate the Sinar m stands on a table without tipping over. Between the back and the viewfinder is enough space for the nose.
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This is an impressive design that really talks to me. I discovered it reacently as my interest for MFD and view cameras is growing.
I'll try to find some samples 100% to see what kind of IQ is expected, but according to the posts, the very best available.
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That makes no sense. One feature of the Sinarback eMotion: when you push the off button on the back, the Sinar m turns off, too. The Sinar m takes over the ISO from the back. With an other back you can't use all features of the Sinar m.
Christopher, thanks for the pdf. I have it in English.
Can you list please a few features which are not available, if any, when 54H is attached to the Sinar M?
Edit: I looked at your images, what bag/case do you recommend to transport Sinar M to a location? Is there any suitable backpack for the Sinar M with 80 up to 120 lens attached?
Thanks
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Thanks for the pdf, I could not find that in the Sinar web.
Does the M accepts others backs than Sinars?
The only supported backs for the M camera are from Sinar (except for their 65LV, I think). Currently, the maximum sensor from Sinar is 33MP. If you need more resolution, you will need to machine your own adapter plate, which is fairly easy to do. You can build a dumb adapter plate (ie, no electronics) and simply attach a PC sync cable from the M sync port on the camera body to the sync port on the MFDB. The M sync port can trigger a MFDB in the same way that a Hasselblad lens leaf shutter triggers a MFDB. This will allow your M camera to trigger any MFDB that will trigger via PC sync. Your shutter speed will be limited by the sync speed ability of the MFDB (anything higher than 1/500 may not be possible).
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Christopher, thanks for the pdf. I have it in English.
Can you list please a few features which are not available, if any, when 54H is attached to the Sinar M?
Edit: I looked at your images, what bag/case do you recommend to transport Sinar M to a location? Is there any suitable backpack for the Sinar M with 80 up to 120 lens attached?
Thanks
Since the Sinarback 54H has no display, noCF-Card and no buttons, you have to do all settings over the MacBook, everthing else is the same. One thing is better with the Emotion backs than with the SB 54H: you can pull off the FireWire cable and stick it in again without crashing Captureshop. And you can use Sinar exposure. On the pictures you see the SB 54H with Sinar m on the Sinar p3.
I transport my gear with Pelican case 1650, see the images. Since the Hasselblad V / Zeiss lenses fit on the Sinar m, I have the Hasselblad CB 60 in my case. Also 2 Sinar Extension tubes. If I peel out the foam I can put the Sinar m into the case with attached 180 lens.
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Does someone could post here a 100% detail jpeg sample taken with the M and Sinar back?
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When I'm climbing through the vinyards of our region, I use an older LowePro Commercial AW bag. It has space enough for the Sinar m with the side battery grip and also with the big bottom battery grip, and the 3 other lenses. But it's a heavy package.
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Does someone could post here a 100% detail jpeg sample taken with the M and Sinar back?
Here's a shot with Sinar m, Sinarback 54H and Sinaron AF 180 mm ZH. Overview and 1:1 detail.
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Does someone could post here a 100% detail jpeg sample taken with the M and Sinar back?
Here's a shot with the Sinar m with Sinarback eMotion 54LV and Sinaron AF 40 mm ZH.
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Here's a shot with the Sinar m with Sinarback eMotion 54LV and Sinaron AF 120 mm ZH.
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here are all the sinar m parts and manuals (http://www.image2output.com/Product.aspx?id=1722&cat=44)
edwin
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The only supported backs for the M camera are from Sinar (except for their 65LV, I think). Currently, the maximum sensor from Sinar is 33MP. If you need more resolution, you will need to machine your own adapter plate, which is fairly easy to do. You can build a dumb adapter plate (ie, no electronics) and simply attach a PC sync cable from the M sync port on the camera body to the sync port on the MFDB. The M sync port can trigger a MFDB in the same way that a Hasselblad lens leaf shutter triggers a MFDB. This will allow your M camera to trigger any MFDB that will trigger via PC sync. Your shutter speed will be limited by the sync speed ability of the MFDB (anything higher than 1/500 may not be possible).
Hi David,
is it worth to make (and where?) an adapter for my Leaf 65, will it focus? It seems that Sinar is positioned as a camera builder, and will not make digital backs in the near future. What do you recommend for mobile use of Sinar M? Remember, I already have 54H. Regards
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Here's a shot that I did to test the sharpness with Sinar m, Sinarback 54H and Sinaron AF 80 mm ZH. Overview and 1:1 detail.
The Sinaron AF 80 mm ZH is the only of the 4 lenses that is significant better than the Hasselblad/Zeiss 80 mm lens. The Sinaron AF 40/120/120 mm ZH are the same as the newest Hasselblad-V lenses.
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Thank you so much for the samples Christopher. This is serious gear! definitely. I really like the render kind of "germanic".
Sinar is now high on my list.
Cheers,
Fred.
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Hi David,
is it worth to make (and where?) an adapter for my Leaf 65, will it focus? It seems that Sinar is positioned as a camera builder, and will not make digital backs in the near future. What do you recommend for mobile use of Sinar M? Remember, I already have 54H. Regards
First, there is no back on the market that will produce any higher resolution and image fidelity than the 54H when used in its 16-shot mode. As you know, the 54H produces a full RGB color 88MP file in 16-shot mode that is even higher resolution than the 50MP file from the most recent 4-shot back H3D50-II.
Is it worth it to make an adapter for your Leaf 65? I guess it depends on how much you love using that back. Too few machinists have the equipment necessary to ensure the extremely tight tolerances. The best approach is to machine a slightly thinner plate and then use shims to set the exact focusing. Even Alpa, noted for their high precision engineering, supplies shims with their back adapters to allow photographers to adjust their focusing exactly, so this is not at all unusual (just time consuming).
Where to have this done? I believe Son Pham is working on such a project for his own Sinar M cameras. He does not use the Leaf 65, but you might want to contact him to see if he can help you.
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First, there is no back on the market that will produce any higher resolution and image fidelity than the 54H when used in its 16-shot mode. As you know, the 54H produces a full RGB color 88MP file in 16-shot mode that is even higher resolution than the 50MP file from the most recent 4-shot back H3D50-II.
Is it worth it to make an adapter for your Leaf 65? I guess it depends on how much you love using that back. Too few machinists have the equipment necessary to ensure the extremely tight tolerances. The best approach is to machine a slightly thinner plate and then use shims to set the exact focusing. Even Alpa, noted for their high precision engineering, supplies shims with their back adapters to allow photographers to adjust their focusing exactly, so this is not at all unusual (just time consuming).
Where to have this done? I believe Son Pham is working on such a project for his own Sinar M cameras. He does not use the Leaf 65, but you might want to contact him to see if he can help you.
David, Christopher, thanks!
David, I think 54H with Sinar M is a unique tool. I will add an eMotion 75LV for mobile work, if I part with my core Contax 645 system (already sold two spare Contax lenses and one spare outfit, which I don't use).
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-And what about Sinar digital backs like the 65LV? it seems that they have a wide range of adapters. I do not know any user to ask for and reviews are rare.
edit --------I just saw the prices, they are crazy!!! not worth the interest?-----------but I'm surprised that we do not hear more about Sinar digital backs in the MFD forum. Wonder why.
Not sure if you refer to the eSprit 65 or Sinar M camera but the prices for the eSprit 65 I was quoted around the end of last year sounded quite "normal" to me:
- 10.194 euro for the eSprit 65 LV
- 484 euro for an adaptor to the Hy6 body, or 1.258 euro for the revolving adaptor to the Hy6 body
- 10.903 euro for the set body+back+revolving adaptor Sinar Hy6-s65r
- 17.355 euro for the same set + Schneider AFD Xenotar 2.8/80 PQS, Schneider AFD S-Angulon 2.8/50 PQS and
Schneider AFD Tele-Xenar 2.8/180 PQ
(these were the prices quoted in Austria, and without VAT)
The set prices seem very good deals.
Pascal
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Not sure if you refer to the eSprit 65 or Sinar M camera but the prices for the eSprit 65 I was quoted around the end of last year sounded quite "normal" to me:
- 10.194 euro for the eSprit 65 LV
- 484 euro for an adaptor to the Hy6 body, or 1.258 euro for the revolving adaptor to the Hy6 body
- 10.903 euro for the set body+back+revolving adaptor Sinar Hy6-s65r
- 17.355 euro for the same set + Schneider AFD Xenotar 2.8/80 PQS, Schneider AFD S-Angulon 2.8/50 PQS and
Schneider AFD Tele-Xenar 2.8/180 PQ
(these were the prices quoted in Austria, and without VAT)
The set prices seem very good deals.
Pascal
Correct Pascal.
I should have posted an edit. First I saw some really expensive prices in a shop in Spain, wich normally is a little cheaper, then with more research realized that the prices are normal.
Yes, the downside is that there is not a big second hand market. So seems that this is also an investment in that sense for the owner (less depreciation), but a limitation for buyers with less incomes.
-O, the guys who own Sinar do not sell them because they are happy
-O, there is a limited number of users
-O both.
My only concern is about if Sinar will keep going making these backs in the future. If they do not sell a lot of gear...
well, my need for an MFD is not for now but in a relative close future and I collect informations. But Sinar is brand that I really take on to consideration because I'm into building a LF system first, and as I see this grade of integration and modularity, is exactly the philosophy I'm looking for.
Cheers,
Fred.