Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: geesbert on February 16, 2010, 07:15:36 am
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nearly all of my commercial work involves flashes, but recently I got more and more interested in shooting with constant light sources. last week I rented a pair of Dedolight daylight HMIs, which are really nice to work with, with a light color spectrum in a working range easier to work with than with tungsten lights. bit a 3500€ a pop they are quite pricey, what other options are there in the 400W range, and I like them to be portable and maybe fresnel based? Arri springs to mind, but not really a cheaper option...
stefan
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I attended a demo of Bron's Kobold products recently,
and liked how compact their 400 (http://www.bron.ch/kb_nw_pn_en/index.php) is.
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I attended a demo of Bron's Kobold products recently,
and liked how compact their 400 (http://www.bron.ch/kb_nw_pn_en/index.php) is.
Yes, nice lights. But they're sold by Bron, that means they're over priced in every market.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/6155..._Open_Face.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/615507-REG/Bron_Kobold_332_U172_DW_400_Open_Face.html)
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Yes, nice lights. But they're sold by Bron, that means they're over priced in every market.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/6155..._Open_Face.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/615507-REG/Bron_Kobold_332_U172_DW_400_Open_Face.html)
Not only are they sold by Bron, but they are made by Bron. The parent corporation of Broncolor is Bron Kobold. The unit is very high quality (as expected).
Price comparison is a bit more difficult as the LTM market space is opening up new options. It used to be a domain of the film industry and some photographers that had film experience. It took a strong grip mentality to be able to control the light.
Now a new channel is opening up and lights are coming to market that take existing photographic light modifiers. The Kobold units take many Broncolor light modifers. They also are smaller and have more compact electronic ballasts.
I personally also like the K5600 Joker Units. http://www.k5600.com/products/jb400/index.html (http://www.k5600.com/products/jb400/index.html) A little less expensive than the Kobold (not much) but take both Profoto and Broncolor light modifiers via adapters
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nearly all of my commercial work involves flashes, but recently I got more and more interested in shooting with constant light sources. last week I rented a pair of Dedolight daylight HMIs, which are really nice to work with, with a light color spectrum in a working range easier to work with than with tungsten lights. bit a 3500€ a pop they are quite pricey, what other options are there in the 400W range, and I like them to be portable and maybe fresnel based? Arri springs to mind, but not really a cheaper option...
stefan
Hi Stefan,
won´t be cheap as well, but take a deeper look at Briese. They offer an adaptor to use the HMI Light modifiers with the flash units as well. This way you will get a lot of variety. They can be moved around very easy, very light, small and fold up in a few seconds - great lighting. If you like the small fresnels...stay with the Dedos.
@K.C. If you think Bron lighting is overprized be prepared for a heavy sticker shock. (BTW, if you like quality and durability, you will have to pay for it and good equipment saves you a lot of (expensive) production time during the job and for many years. Just my 2ct)
As already mentioned Broncolor offers some HMI stuff as well.
Stefan, you are located in Germany, why don´t ask for a free demonstration?
Cheers, Ulf
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the broncolor HMI system is quite good, but it seems that it is not well known.
it is not even listed on bronimaging.de.
it uses a 575/8oo bron/kobold ballast http://www.bronkobold.de/hauptthema.asp?se...;x1=7&x2=28 (http://www.bronkobold.de/hauptthema.asp?sessionId=0&x1=7&x2=28)
and a bron pulso head with a 575 or 800 HMI tube.
if you have bron flash equipment, you can use most of the light shapeners for the HMI.
briese offers a similar system up to 25oo w.
(http://www.bron.ch/_data/bc_pd_ps_hmif575800_big.jpg)
broncolor HMI F575.800
Article no. 42.104.00
Lamp base with shockproof Noryl-housing and hand grip.
Bayonet adapter with automatic locking device for diverse broncolor light shapers.
Suitable for operation with hot restrike (HR). Equipped with a secure socket for single-ended HMI/MSR lamp.
The lamp base can be equipped with 575W respectively 800 W lamps.
http://www.bron.ch/bc_pd_ps_en/detail.php?nr=2596 (http://www.bron.ch/bc_pd_ps_en/detail.php?nr=2596)
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the broncolor HMI system is quite good, but it seems that it is not well known.
it is not even listed on bronimaging.de.
it uses a 575/8oo bron/kobold ballast http://www.bronkobold.de/hauptthema.asp?se...;x1=7&x2=28 (http://www.bronkobold.de/hauptthema.asp?sessionId=0&x1=7&x2=28)
and a bron pulso head with a 575 or 800 HMI tube.
if you have bron flash equipment, you can use most of the light shapeners for the HMI.
briese offers a similar system up to 25oo w.
That is the old Broncolor HMI and has been discontinued for about 4 years now just as the Profoto has been.
The new units info can be found here .... http://www.bron.ch/kb_pd_ps_us/detail.php?nr=16038 (http://www.bron.ch/kb_pd_ps_us/detail.php?nr=16038)
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That is the old Broncolor HMI and has been discontinued for about 4 years now just as the Profoto has been.
The new units info can be found here .... http://www.bron.ch/kb_pd_ps_us/detail.php?nr=16038 (http://www.bron.ch/kb_pd_ps_us/detail.php?nr=16038)
Hi mattlap2,
this HMI lampbase can be found in the 2009/2010 system catalogue: Lampbase: HMI F575.800 / 42.104.00 fitting ballast HMI 575.800 / 41.102.XX
(Page 52, german edition) and it is also listed in the 2009 pricelist. It is also listed on the web http://www.bron.ch/bc_pd_ps_en/detail.php?nr=2596 (http://www.bron.ch/bc_pd_ps_en/detail.php?nr=2596) you better don´t refer to the german site. I cannot see a hint that it should be discontinued. From where did you get that information?
Broncolor HMI lighting is indeed not very well known, but it´s worth a look.
Bron Kobold is originally focussing on a different type of user but they have small fresnels that might be interesting, too.
Cheers, Ulf
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hi stefan,
I would propose to contact one of the loads of lighting rentals in your area (schmiedle, arri, brunner & eisenreich,...) , have a look at what's available (beside Arri you got LTM, Desisti, mole richardson,...) and think about buying stuff, some things are really cheap or moderate to rent.
here's a german link collection to many movie related producers and rental houses: http://www.msteffl.de/ (http://www.msteffl.de/)
best regards,
marcel
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That is the old Broncolor HMI and has been discontinued for about 4 years now just as the Profoto has been.
The new units info can be found here .... http://www.bron.ch/kb_pd_ps_us/detail.php?nr=16038 (http://www.bron.ch/kb_pd_ps_us/detail.php?nr=16038)
The older Broncolors are fine, though a little sensitive and fragile. If the globe is not exactly in the right spot they won't strike. The upside is they will take most Broncolor modifiers, the downside is 575 watts is on the bare minimum with any diffusion for stills, even with a dslr, with medium format they are below the minimum.
I use a lot of continuous and flash, especially for projects that are mixed still and video. In fact that seems to be the norm to shoot both, even if it's with a separate crew and to do ti right and don't want to use flash, you really need 1000 watts of continuous for stills (that is if you use modifiers) , and you can get by with less for video, especially the 5d2 as on the video setting 2000 iso doesn't seems to change anything.
With so much emphasis put on video now, I am at a loss to understand why profoto and some of the other still light makers doesn't have a full range of hmis and tungsten. Profoto did but they discontinued them.
Our current project requires both video and stills, and the quality and sharpness of flash works well for the stills, and unless you have some very powerful modeling lights, shooting video on the same set requires two sets of lights. This can be a real pain.
Regardless HMI's are bloody expensive and unless your shooting almost daily it's cheaper to rent and if you fly, moving hmi arri's are expensive, so you much better off renting. One other upside to the brons is they are the same size as flash and move easily.
Probably the only thing that would move me to a large equipment purchase now would be if profoto came out with a 1000, to 800 watt hmi head and ballast.
I like continuous use it a lot even tungsten and never see any problem with the file breaking up with tungsten.
This screen grab straight out of a 5d2
[attachment=20302:screengrab.jpg]
(will go through a lot of post as the creative brief calls for a moving city scene behind the model and flashing into the reflection of the glass) was shot with tungsten as a key, an hmi and daylight as a back light.
Same with this screen grab from the still session shot with a 1ds3, which was shot tungsten as key, window light (daylight in the background) obviously with a retouched skyline.
[attachment=20303:screengrab2.jpg]
So, if your shooting in blacked out spaces and don't have to use daylight/window light for fill or background tungsten is pennies on the dollar compared to HMI's and work quite well.
BC
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I use HMI an awful lot for the food work I do. Love them. Really great source.
I have 2 x 575W Arri heads which I bought quite cheaply from a rental company about 8/9 yrs ago (so they must be at least 15 years old now, if not more) & I have honestly never had to change a bulb in the whole time I've had them & the temp is still, remarkably, within 2 - 300k of what it was originally. The Arri's, probably due to their film industry heritige, are built like tanks too - they really are solid workhorses.
Only down side is they are a bit of a pain in the arse to lug around (the ballasts on mine are the old school blocks that weigh a bloody ton). I'd never fly with them for example.
Most good rentals, both photo & TV & Film, will have them & they are pretty reasonable day rates usually.
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Try Briese HMI light. It's expensive but in my opinion best light ever made. You must try it. One word - Posh :-)
www.briese-lighttechnik.de
You must try the following lights modifiers:
Focus 77,100, 180
Sun
Downlight
Electronic ballast form 1200 - 4k
Best regards,
Design Freak
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I bought a new k5600 Joker 400 a few years ago. New, about $5k. Nice unit I guess. Accepted speedrings. I never got my head around it though, for travel, or location work. There seemed to be about five or six parts that had to be assembled, and it seemed to take forever to get it together. The ballast box seemed a tad delicate for travel; I had to send it back once, for overhaul. And it came in this old-school anvil case, which was nice for grip truck, but not nice for airplane checking. Was heavy to drag around. Plus, in actual real world jobs, it always fell into this weird category of being "not enough light for actual usability" so it stayed in the truck a lot. Had an odd CT, compared to Profoto flash too, when mixing. Of course, if I was video only, I'd probably feel differently about it, but with stills, it always seemed easier to use the Acute2's, or the 7b -- out of the case, and on the stand in no time. In the end, I sold the HMI to my local grip house. I've never missed it since.
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Thanks for all your advice. I guess I will keep that as a rental item for a while and have another look at Photokina, as I presume the lighting companies will come out with new stuff for all those video SLRs.
stefan
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Thanks for all your advice. I guess I will keep that as a rental item for a while and have another look at Photokina, as I presume the lighting companies will come out with new stuff for all those video SLRs.
Honestly, it just makes you wonder: "We can put a man on the moon, but we can't make a powerful light bulb that won't blow a residential circuit, that's 5500 degrees, instead of 3200?"
Five thousand dollars, in order to get a blue light bulb?
With all this 5D2 video stuff getting popular, you just KNOW that someone is going to realize that they can make a profit if they create a blue light bulb. I just think that HMI is ready to soon be a thing of the past. Kinda like a $45000 digital back.
Yeah, I certainly would wait. There is much better ROI in other aspects of the business. If you need it, then rent it and bill it.
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Has anyone been using those florescent bulbs? There seem to be cheap as hell, and the right color temperature. The dudes at Calumet said they have been selling TONS for use with DSLRs for still photography. Not sure how they are working out for video though...
When I have tested the kits with the florescent bulbs, the camera's white balance does a great job, the quality of the light looks very good, and the cost of a kit with two scoop-type heads with diffusion, two bulbs, stands, etc is around $350.
They are far brighter than tungsten (and some heads allow multiple bulbs) , 5500 color temp, cheap, last ages, no flicker, etc...
Just a thought.
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Has anyone been using those florescent bulbs? There seem to be cheap as hell, and the right color temperature. The dudes at Calumet said they have been selling TONS for use with DSLRs for still photography. Not sure how they are working out for video though...
When I have tested the kits with the florescent bulbs, the camera's white balance does a great job, the quality of the light looks very good, and the cost of a kit with two scoop-type heads with diffusion, two bulbs, stands, etc is around $350.
They are far brighter than tungsten (and some heads allow multiple bulbs) , 5500 color temp, cheap, last ages, no flicker, etc...
Just a thought.
The last ones I used (albeit a few years ago - some rental kinoflo's) still had flicker/ballast problems, and spectrum spikes. I found it was still having to add the +5M filter and hope for the best. Wasn't worth it for the way I shot.
I don't know if they have improved. For my part, I'm comfortable using strobes and regular hotlights.
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there are also the lite panels.....led panels...the latest versions are VERY nice....
good output....built in dimmer, built in COLOR TEMP dial!!!! and....snap on a battery and use on the beach.....
put 4 in a available mount and you have a portable, dimmable "window" where ever you go.....and just dial in the colortemp on the back......
also very light and only an inch or so deep....
i wasn't too impressed with the first gen of these...but these are really nice.....
i am not sure but you might even be able to dial in the spread (i might be wrong on that....maybe they just have different versions...)
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Liam, the new ones are WAY better than the older ones.
Schefz: how much do these panels cost? I just glanced at Adorama and the LED panels on the first page there are between $4000 and $20,000!
http://www.adorama.com/SearchSite/Default....anel%20lighting (http://www.adorama.com/SearchSite/Default.aspx?searchinfo=led%20panel%20lighting)
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Liam, the new ones are WAY better than the older ones.
Schefz: how much do these panels cost? I just glanced at Adorama and the LED panels on the first page there are between $4000 and $20,000!
http://www.adorama.com/SearchSite/Default....anel%20lighting (http://www.adorama.com/SearchSite/Default.aspx?searchinfo=led%20panel%20lighting)
the ones i am talking about are Litepanels (that is the brand) not cheap but i believe a 1x1ft panel is between 1500 and 2500....depending on features...there are a lot of sizes and accessories....the smaller ones are all over the place in TV/movie production...you can put them anywhere and they operate on batteries as well.....
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the ones i am talking about are Litepanels (that is the brand) not cheap but i believe a 1x1ft panel is between 1500 and 2500....depending on features...there are a lot of sizes and accessories....the smaller ones are all over the place in TV/movie production...you can put them anywhere and they operate on batteries as well.....
Cool Lights are WAY cheaper the Lightpanels!
Cool Lights LED (http://www.coollights.biz/fixture-series-c-40.html?osCsid=64a8a597139661869ea04b93b02ea19e)
By the way - I had two Arri HMI kits - I freakin hated them - color was off, not powerful enough and just gave an overall fugly quality of light. Sold them for more then double what I paid so I was at least happy about that.
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The Focus 77 with an HMI is my once light of choice for video's and portraits.
Try Briese HMI light. It's expensive but in my opinion best light ever made. You must try it. One word - Posh :-)
www.briese-lighttechnik.de
You must try the following lights modifiers:
Focus 77,100, 180
Sun
Downlight
Electronic ballast form 1200 - 4k
Best regards,
Design Freak
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The last ones I used (albeit a few years ago - some rental kinoflo's) still had flicker/ballast problems, and spectrum spikes. I found it was still having to add the +5M filter and hope for the best. Wasn't worth it for the way I shot.
I don't know if they have improved. For my part, I'm comfortable using strobes and regular hotlights.
Are you talkin' Kinos? My Kino Diva 4 banks are great. No spectrum issues, temp is right on, balast keeps on truckin'. The way the lights mount to the metal mount with the ball head is flimsy, but nothing black gaf tape doesn't fix.
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They are awesome but not as a key. Not enough output, really, unless you gang up many many panels. I use them to fill in holes, fake a window, light spaces like closets and refrigerators and car interiors.
the ones i am talking about are Litepanels (that is the brand) not cheap but i believe a 1x1ft panel is between 1500 and 2500....depending on features...there are a lot of sizes and accessories....the smaller ones are all over the place in TV/movie production...you can put them anywhere and they operate on batteries as well.....
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We have a basic HMI set up, all Arri's, and an old waterproof Kobold. If we shoot all HMI we rent extra, its much cheaper than owning, but usually we use tungsten mixed with Kino's. Anything outside we use tungsten unless we can rent several Arri suns. We, or really, I, balance the color temps, even window light, with Rosco gels and a color temp meter. It takes some time, but is usually worth it.
One thing about continuous on location for stills: I think its best to use lights that let you work with still photo modifiers. Too much grip work on location eats time, and by extension money, and open faced or fresnel lights require grip work. Best to rent or buy something that you can quickly slap on a light stand with a softbox/brolly whatever, crank up your iso, and get to work. I rent a Briese Focus 77 HMI from the Piers, with a battery pack. I gaf tape the ballast and the battery to an assistant and mount the Focus on a light stand, which the assistant carries, thus nothing touches the ground and you can avoid permits and keep everything low key. This is how I shoot on the streets for that rushed insanity that is Broad and Wall at 4pm., still or video.
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Are you talkin' Kinos? My Kino Diva 4 banks are great. No spectrum issues, temp is right on, balast keeps on truckin'. The way the lights mount to the metal mount with the ball head is flimsy, but nothing black gaf tape doesn't fix.
The ones I used were rentals and pretty beat up, it's possible I just got dodgy equipment.
Regardless, for what and how I shoot, I don't really need continuous sources much anymore, so it's a non-issue for now. Glad to hear the newer equip is better in that arena. If I start adding in any motion work, those might be an option again.
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They are awesome but not as a key. Not enough output, really, unless you gang up many many panels. I use them to fill in holes, fake a window, light spaces like closets and refrigerators and car interiors.
As TMark said using Kinos or any florescent is too dim for a key for stills, also for most video unless you use the 5d2 at about iso 2000 (which is pretty smooth for that iso).
Also all the florescent fixtures produce a fairly soft light and other than softer modifiers don't offer much in the way of flexibility.
I have the fotoflex, (the ones with the huge bulbs and also another brand (don't remember at this moment) with smaller florescent bulbs and they both put out the same output, or close to it, regardless of the specs.
One upside to the fotoflex kits are they take daylight florescent and tungsten bulbs. The tungsten put out a lot more light.
So bottom line if your shooting a combination still and video project, don't expect to take your low iso medium format back and freeze a moving subject, unless your use some very heavy duty hmi's (which on location have to be spiked into the breaker box) or run a very larger generator.
If you can live with 800 iso at F 5.6 with a dslr, then you can use most any continuous source but you still won't be able to freeze someone jumping in the air unless you use a D3s at iso twenty billion.
Personally, I like tungsten with digital and believe it gives a nice look, is cost effective, and you can buy a lot of arri tungsten for the price of a decent hmi and ballast. As far as grip, it depends on what you shoot. Obviously modifiers for hot lights and more complicated with 4x scrims and a lot of flags to do pretty much what one beauty dish will produce on strobe, so if your working on budget and can't afford a gaffer, be prepared for a medium learning curve and get some hot gloves so you can keep your fingers intact.
If your working any sized project with a budget search out a good gaffer that has his own truck and equipment. They will usually work very favorable package deals, they know their own equipment well and though there is a time delay, it's not off the wall long if the gaffer and grips are good.
I agree with gwitif that profoto, bron or someone should make a more cost effective hmi, cause 5 grand for 500 watts just doesn't do much. Maybe it they were 1,000 watts you could swing it (though still on the limit), but 500 watts can be limiting and in medium format land you better get one of those old timey head braces to hold your subject still.
One trick I do when shooting continuous for video and flash for still is to set the lights for continuous and then add a small monoblock, usually as a very turned down backlight through a soft modifier like a shoot through umbrella. This will help freeze the subject on stills, not really interfere with the look of the shoot on video and though on stills you might get some shutter drag blur, usually it's sharp.
Regardless, with a combination still and video project your pretty much in dslr territory, if there is movement.
[attachment=20344:mixedlight.jpg]
BC
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[attachment=20344:mixedlight.jpg]
BC
Hey Cooter I hope you got james Russell's permission before using his pics to illustrate your point..
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Hey Cooter I hope you got james Russell's permission before using his pics to illustrate your point..
That's a good one Nick! ;-)
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I attended a demo of Bron's Kobold products recently,
and liked how compact their 400 (http://www.bron.ch/kb_nw_pn_en/index.php) is.
Can the 200's overpower the sun? I was talking with an LA based photographer who is very experienced in the industry, who recently moved to these Kobolds. He was telling me how awesome the '2k's were, and how he could over power the sun with them... but when i went to the website, I only found 200w (and the 400w) version.
My world is mostly strobe, with some Aries as well. I typically use a 600w light minimum when outside, and more often have the 1100w Elinchrom Speed Ranger pack and a single head firing near full to over power the sun, and that's with minimal modifiers.... so I'm confused about the Kobolds. First, to me a '2K' would be a two-thousand watt light, not a 200. Is there some sort of difference with the HMI? Am I missing something obvious (wouldn't be the first time).
B
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I gaf tape the ballast and the battery to an assistant and mount the Focus on a light stand, which the assistant carries, thus nothing touches the ground and you can avoid permits and keep everything low key. This is how I shoot on the streets for that rushed insanity that is Broad and Wall at 4pm., still or video.
I'd love to see some samples of this - it sounds like a set up that would be fantastically useful to me.
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Hey Cooter I hope you got james Russell's permission before using his pics to illustrate your point..
Hey Tee,
Yea I know James well, we speak often, especially late at night.
In fact we're thinking about doing an HMI blog together. I'll let you know when I cut the deal.
BC
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I'd love to see some samples of this - it sounds like a set up that would be fantastically useful to me.
Samples of the rig? I'm shooting this rig in March for a stills editorial and a music video. We are renting one of the Gray Line red open top double decker tour buses. The talent sits in the very back and we mount the camera on a steady cam mounted to the seats, and light him (big time rapper) with the Focus HMI. I'll shoot some pics of the rig. I have one of my assistant all stressed because the balast and battery were hot when we taped them to his leg (they were on belt clips, by the way). Battery ended up in the back pack.
Another trick tought to me by Connie Hall (RIP, one for my hommie) the Cinematographer was to mount a single Kino tube on a mic boom, balast on a grip's belt. You can follow the talent and use it to model the light for a long take which has a close up, all in one shot. So you run your talent down a hall, lit by practicals and the kino tube, then the stop, c/u, which is lit with the kino tube such that an actress gets modeled light rather than the harsh light from the practicals, and boom: everyone is happy. For location you could use a battery or an E2000 generator.
All of this requires, in a stills camera, at least 800 iso.
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Samples of the rig? I'm shooting this rig in March for a stills editorial and a music video. We are renting one of the Gray Line red open top double decker tour buses. The talent sits in the very back and we mount the camera on a steady cam mounted to the seats, and light him (big time rapper) with the Focus HMI. I'll shoot some pics of the rig. I have one of my assistant all stressed because the balast and battery were hot when we taped them to his leg (they were on belt clips, by the way). Battery ended up in the back pack.
Another trick tought to me by Connie Hall (RIP, one for my hommie) the Cinematographer was to mount a single Kino tube on a mic boom, balast on a grip's belt. You can follow the talent and use it to model the light for a long take which has a close up, all in one shot. So you run your talent down a hall, lit by practicals and the kino tube, then the stop, c/u, which is lit with the kino tube such that an actress gets modeled light rather than the harsh light from the practicals, and boom: everyone is happy. For location you could use a battery or an E2000 generator.
All of this requires, in a stills camera, at least 800 iso.
Yes, I'd really like to see that rig. Keeping kit off the ground and staying away from the headaches of permits will be a big deal for me if I get to shoot some stuff in New York.
Right now I've got a Speed Ranger in a backpack, with a head on a monopole as my only option.
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Yes, I'd really like to see that rig. Keeping kit off the ground and staying away from the headaches of permits will be a big deal for me if I get to shoot some stuff in New York.
Right now I've got a Speed Ranger in a backpack, with a head on a monopole as my only option.
That's not bad either. A friend uses Lumadynes on poles, or rather, on extended light stands with the legs folded up. It works.
If the weather's good just reflectors can work wonders.
Permits in NYC aren't that bad to get, nothing like LA.
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That's not bad either. A friend uses Lumadynes on poles, or rather, on extended light stands with the legs folded up. It works.
If the weather's good just reflectors can work wonders.
Permits in NYC aren't that bad to get, nothing like LA.
Yeah, we gave up on LA.
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Yeah, we gave up on LA.
We hire a producer for LA who handles permits etc. Everyone in LA has their hand out.
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Yeah, we gave up on LA.
Unless you learn all the municipalities in Southern California, and know the workings of the EDIC, it can be daunting to shoot here, with permits, rules, different insurance bonds, etc., though once you do learn it it's quite easy and as far as I know offers more year round variety than any location in the world.
We routinely go less than 1/2 of a mile to the beach and with the proper badges we have year round can shoot at will, with only a few restrictions, but once again you have to learn them and invest.
Since one of the main industries of El Lay is making little pictures, you'd think it would be easier like NY or Miami, but the flip side to this given the scope of most production here, if permits were not required probably every inch would be blocked by a generator and and 6 honey wagons.
Yes it's more difficult, but to go from beach to desert, snow to urban in a day or two period opens up a lot of opportunity and El Lay is much more cost effective today than it was a few years ago. (That's almost an understatement).
Not that I'm asking more photographers to come to El Lay. I'm not cause I think it's full right now.
El Lay is insane, over the top (at least to the normal world) but like the line from the tee vee show Southland says , if you work here "you have a front row seat to the greatest show on earth".
BC
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Unless you learn all the municipalities in Southern California, and know the workings of the EDIC, it can be daunting to shoot here, with permits, rules, different insurance bonds, etc., though once you do learn it it's quite easy and as far as I know offers more year round variety than any location in the world.
We routinely go less than 1/2 of a mile to the beach and with the proper badges we have year round can shoot at will, with only a few restrictions, but once again you have to learn them and invest.
Since one of the main industries of El Lay is making little pictures, you'd think it would be easier like NY or Miami, but the flip side to this given the scope of most production here, if permits were not required probably every inch would be blocked by a generator and and 6 honey wagons.
Yes it's more difficult, but to go from beach to desert, snow to urban in a day or two period opens up a lot of opportunity and El Lay is much more cost effective today than it was a few years ago. (That's almost an understatement).
Not that I'm asking more photographers to come to El Lay. I'm not cause I think it's full right now.
El Lay is insane, over the top (at least to the normal world) but like the line from the tee vee show Southland says , if you work here "you have a front row seat to the greatest show on earth".
BC
The only thing I don't like about LA is the traffic. It took me and an assistant an hour and twenty to drive from Beverly and Labrea to Century City/BH High. I bailed at some point on Olympic and walked around, it is where I spent my formative years. I like the food, better than NYC. I like the space. Cost of living is about the same as NYC, but you get more for your dollar, live better. I like how the galleries can take risks on artists because their rent isn't $100k a month. I like the hot rod culture, going to Pomona to witness the drags.
You are so right about the locations: Laurel Canyon nature, Big Bear snow/mountains, Chatsworth suburban dystopia, high desert in Mojave/Owens River Valley, beaches, and amazing Modern houses by Neutra. Too bad it takes two hours driving to go to the valley and back for rentals.
As a point of comparison we shot this week in Huntington and Pax, West Virginia, in the snow and 20 degrees. They didn't even have a permit process, but they did have a Coogi store.
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The only thing I don't like about LA is the traffic. It took me and an assistant an hour and twenty to drive from Beverly and Labrea to Century City/BH High. I bailed at some point on Olympic and walked around, it is where I spent my formative years. I like the food, better than NYC. I like the space. Cost of living is about the same as NYC, but you get more for your dollar, live better. I like how the galleries can take risks on artists because their rent isn't $100k a month. I like the hot rod culture, going to Pomona to witness the drags.
You are so right about the locations: Laurel Canyon nature, Big Bear snow/mountains, Chatsworth suburban dystopia, high desert in Mojave/Owens River Valley, beaches, and amazing Modern houses by Neutra. Too bad it takes two hours driving to go to the valley and back for rentals.
As a point of comparison we shot this week in Huntington and Pax, West Virginia, in the snow and 20 degrees. They didn't even have a permit process, but they did have a Coogi store.
Since you've also lived in both NY and LA you know the differences.
As you know you learn the process, as in any city. For people that have worked in Miami which is quite small or NY which is quite concentrated, learning LA well and the rules, the permits, the process takes a while and I'll agree there are a lot of hands out, but then again people should be paid for their property and their work, just like photographers want to be paid for their photographs.
BC
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Since you've also lived in both NY and LA you know the differences.
As you know you learn the process, as in any city. For people that have worked in Miami which is quite small or NY which is quite concentrated, learning LA well and the rules, the permits, the process takes a while and I'll agree there are a lot of hands out, but then again people should be paid for their property and their work, just like photographers want to be paid for their photographs.
BC
Now that I spend most of my time in Virginia I have a new perspective. I still have a condo in Brooklyn and my partners are in Brooklyn and Manhattan. I'm up there once a month. I will confess, it makes me crazy after three days in a way that LA doesn't. NYC turns me into Larry David faster than a Curb marathon. There is no release, like the beach or hiking, or simply enjoying a large empty space alone. And if our Dodge Sprinter gets another ticket I might start cutting the heads off of parking meters, Cool Hand Luke style.
OK now I want to sell my joint in Brooklyn, sell my place in Richmond and buy a place in Topanga, maybe work on my IATSE 600 membership.
One thing LA has that I really really miss: Mexican Food. Real Mexican food. NYC is getting better, but I need a roach coach surrounded by Mexicans (Red Hook) to get anything really good, and Bloomberg keeps shutting them down.
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Now that I spend most of my time in Virginia I have a new perspective. I still have a condo in Brooklyn and my partners are in Brooklyn and Manhattan. I'm up there once a month. I will confess, it makes me crazy after three days in a way that LA doesn't. NYC turns me into Larry David faster than a Curb marathon. There is no release, like the beach or hiking, or simply enjoying a large empty space alone. And if our Dodge Sprinter gets another ticket I might start cutting the heads off of parking meters, Cool Hand Luke style.
OK now I want to sell my joint in Brooklyn, sell my place in Richmond and buy a place in Topanga, maybe work on my IATSE 600 membership.
One thing LA has that I really really miss: Mexican Food. Real Mexican food. NYC is getting better, but I need a roach coach surrounded by Mexicans (Red Hook) to get anything really good, and Bloomberg keeps shutting them down.
just what we need in topanga..more photographers and DPs:)....
i lived in manhattan for 8 years....all i can say: the second i turn from PCH onto topanga, it all falls away....no matter what happened that day or how bad the traffic was....
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Thanks for all your advice. I guess I will keep that as a rental item for a while and have another look at Photokina, as I presume the lighting companies will come out with new stuff for all those video SLRs.
stefan
hi Stefan,
Just like you I have started my transition into dslr video which requests certain changes in regards of lighting. There are three light options to go with which is tungsten, HMI and LED. All systems with pro´s and cons. Tungsten is relatively inexpensive but gets hot and is problematic where there´s ambient daylight. Unless you like the blueish effect you get by matching the two. HMI is expensive, gets hot and the bulbs delicate but the lighting quality is generally beautiful out of the box and you´re able to modify it in many ways and blends in nicely where there´s daylight ambiance. LED seems to be a nice alternative and I have been looking at the 1x1 Litepanels that are lightweight, doesn´t get hot and can operate from batteries. But they are expensive and have a characteristic look that might not work for all assignments.
I´m surprised that Profoto old 1200 HMI´s has not been mentioned here. These can be picked up for appx. $1500.00 used together with a lightmaker ballast or appx. the double for the original Profoto ballast. Another great alternative is the K5600 HMI product line. I just found out that they have released a Profoto adapter that enables you to use a K5600 HMI on a lot of Profoto´s light modifiers. (see enclosed pics). The K5600 kits starts under $2000 with their 200 Watt evolution kit which is about the same money you would pay for a 1x1 foot Litepanel. A 200 watt HMI might not sound like a lot but it´s equal to a 1000 watt tungsten light.
There´s no doubt a lot of new products with continues lighting will hit the market this fall at Photokina and sometimes it´s better to wait. But depending on how many HMI rentals you might end up with owning is a valid alternative. If you invest in a good HMI system you´ll get a lot back in case you decide to sell as the video dslr´s is changing our industry.
Best, Per Bernal
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[attachment=20402:k56_pdn_...ch_final.jpg]
hi Stefan,
Just like you I have started my transition into dslr video which requests certain changes in regards of lighting. There are three light options to go with which is tungsten, HMI and LED. All systems with pro´s and cons. Tungsten is relatively inexpensive but gets hot and is problematic where there´s ambient daylight. Unless you like the blueish effect you get by matching the two. HMI is expensive, gets hot and the bulbs delicate but the lighting quality is generally beautiful out of the box and you´re able to modify it in many ways and blends in nicely where there´s daylight ambiance. LED seems to be a nice alternative and I have been looking at the 1x1 Litepanels that are lightweight, doesn´t get hot and can operate from batteries. But they are expensive and have a characteristic look that might not work for all assignments.
I´m surprised that Profoto old 1200 HMI´s has not been mentioned here. These can be picked up for appx. $1500.00 used together with a lightmaker ballast or appx. the double for the original Profoto ballast. Another great alternative is the K5600 HMI product line. I just found out that they have released a Profoto adapter that enables you to use a K5600 HMI on a lot of Profoto´s light modifiers. (see enclosed pics). The K5600 kits starts under $2000 with their 200 Watt evolution kit which is about the same money you would pay for a 1x1 foot Litepanel. A 200 watt HMI might not sound like a lot but it´s equal to a 1000 watt tungsten light.
There´s no doubt a lot of new products with continues lighting will hit the market this fall at Photokina and sometimes it´s better to wait. But depending on how many HMI rentals you might end up with owning is a valid alternative. If you invest in a good HMI system you´ll get a lot back in case you decide to sell as the video dslr´s is changing our industry.
Best, Per Bernal
The image didn´t attach : (
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per,
I balance tungsten with daylight all the time you shouldn't get a blue effect if you use the right gels. A full asortment of gels and a color temp meter give total control, especialy with digital.
I like HMI way better, but usually rent.
T
hi Stefan,
Just like you I have started my transition into dslr video which requests certain changes in regards of lighting. There are three light options to go with which is tungsten, HMI and LED. All systems with pro´s and cons. Tungsten is relatively inexpensive but gets hot and is problematic where there´s ambient daylight. Unless you like the blueish effect you get by matching the two. HMI is expensive, gets hot and the bulbs delicate but the lighting quality is generally beautiful out of the box and you´re able to modify it in many ways and blends in nicely where there´s daylight ambiance. LED seems to be a nice alternative and I have been lookinRg at the 1x1 Litepanels that are lightweight, doesn´t get hot and can operate from batteries. But they are expensive and have a characteristic look that might not work for all assignments.
I´m surprised that Profoto old 1200 HMI´s has not been mentioned here. These can be picked up for appx. $1500.00 used together with a lightmaker ballast or appx. the double for the original Profoto ballast. Another great alternative is the K5600 HMI product line. I just found out that they have released a Profoto adapter that enables you to use a K5600 HMI on a lot of Profoto´s light modifiers. (see enclosed pics). The K5600 kits starts under $2000 with their 200 Watt evolution kit which is about the same money you would pay for a 1x1 foot Litepanel. A 200 watt HMI might not sound like a lot but it´s equal to a 1000 watt tungsten light.
There´s no doubt a lot of new products with continues lighting will hit the market this fall at Photokina and sometimes it´s better to wait. But depending on how many HMI rentals you might end up with owning is a valid alternative. If you invest in a good HMI system you´ll get a lot back in case you decide to sell as the video dslr´s is changing our industry.
Best, Per Bernal
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per,
I balance tungsten with daylight all the time you shouldn't get a blue effect if you use the right gels. A full asortment of gels and a color temp meter give total control, especialy with digital.
I like HMI way better, but usually rent.
T
It´s very true but you´re losing a lot of output from the tungsten light when using daylight filters - appx 2 stops if I´m not wrong. On location you might run into a situation where you are tripping the fuses as a 2000 Watt tungsten turns into a 500-750 Watt light that requires a lot of AMP. Not very practical. With the new video dslr´s and great output at high iso you can get away with a small HMI at an affordable price and that also takes Profoto modifiers. Just felt it was of importance to point out that there are alternatives to HMI´s from Dedolight, Arri, Broncolor Kobolt etc. Check with any grip or gaffer on the west coast and you´ll find that the K5600´s comes highly recommended.
Per
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Per,
You can also gel the windows with some CTO. Throw a 3/4 orange on the windows and BOOM, color balance. Also, when gelling lights for DV, the DV cams are so much more sensative than film, that you may only need a 750.
Don't get me wrong, anything that makes for less grip work is a huge plus. Anything that won't burn the skin off your forarms, and anything that doesn't make the talent sweat in a small room, in the summer, when the AC is turned off because of the risk of overload, well, that is a HUGE plus! I think for photographers coming to motion, the HMI's with a Profoto adapter, like the K5600, will be the easiest thing to use. There is less of a grip tradition in stills, so the less grip work the better!
It´s very true but you´re losing a lot of output from the tungsten light when using daylight filters - appx 2 stops if I´m not wrong. On location you might run into a situation where you are tripping the fuses as a 2000 Watt tungsten turns into a 500-750 Watt light that requires a lot of AMP. Not very practical. With the new video dslr´s and great output at high iso you can get away with a small HMI at an affordable price and that also takes Profoto modifiers. Just felt it was of importance to point out that there are alternatives to HMI´s from Dedolight, Arri, Broncolor Kobolt etc. Check with any grip or gaffer on the west coast and you´ll find that the K5600´s comes highly recommended.
Per
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I bought one of these a few years ago, and wish I'd bought ten of them. I run the 500's in it to keep the head down, and reduce the breaker issue. Takes all the accessories of the stills heads. Just be aware of heat. They fly well. Bulbs easy to find. Now, if Profoto will only see the surge in DSLR video, and pay someone to design a 5500 bulb for it, and then re-introduce them. But of course, they'll be triple the original price, if they did:
http://www.adorama.com/catalog.tpl?op=deta...mp;sku=PP701050 (http://www.adorama.com/catalog.tpl?op=detailsdisc&sku=PP701050)
You can see how old they are by noting which digital backs they're compatible with: "the newest Dicomed".
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I bought one of these a few years ago, and wish I'd bought ten of them. I run the 500's in it to keep the head down, and reduce the breaker issue. Takes all the accessories of the stills heads. Just be aware of heat. They fly well. Bulbs easy to find. Now, if Profoto will only see the surge in DSLR video, and pay someone to design a 5500 bulb for it, and then re-introduce them. But of course, they'll be triple the original price, if they did:
http://www.adorama.com/catalog.tpl?op=deta...mp;sku=PP701050 (http://www.adorama.com/catalog.tpl?op=detailsdisc&sku=PP701050)
You can see how old they are by noting which digital backs they're compatible with: "the newest Dicomed".
I agree, I tried to buy a bunch of these but never could find them, except used and somewhat beat up.
Though I think the biggest issue is the noise of the fans when running sound.
If you run 10 I guess they are noticeable and I guess there is a reason an Arri 1k is the size of a toyota prius.
Still, you'd think at this point profoto would reintroduce their hmi's.
I know of one place I can rent the HMI's in NY , (and I've tried to buy their set for two years), but they make life very easy for stills/video as long as you don't have to freeze someone jumping in the air.
BC
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How about these HMI HID (http://www.videolighting.com/hmi-video-lights.html) lights?
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How about these HMI HID (http://www.videolighting.com/hmi-video-lights.html) lights?
Where is the rub? They look great but why so cheap? I am now investigating . . .
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TMARK,
HID made me recall Academic Imaging's Buhl lights
http://www.academicimaging.com/specs/north...copy-light.html (http://www.academicimaging.com/specs/north-light-copy-light.html)
Billy
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If this is the pattern of the future, there is going to be a real demand for low-cost, portable, 5500 continuous sources.
http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2010/02/24/...hoot-look-like/ (http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2010/02/24/so-what-does-an-hdslr-hybrid-shoot-look-like/)
Ugg, what a mess. This is "portable video"?
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TMARK,
HID made me recall Academic Imaging's Buhl lights
http://www.academicimaging.com/specs/north...copy-light.html (http://www.academicimaging.com/specs/north-light-copy-light.html)
Billy
I always thought the North Lights were flourescents. Interesting.
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If this is the pattern of the future, there is going to be a real demand for low-cost, portable, 5500 continuous sources.
http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2010/02/24/...hoot-look-like/ (http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2010/02/24/so-what-does-an-hdslr-hybrid-shoot-look-like/)
Ugg, what a mess. This is "portable video"?
They are trying to make the DSLRs a poor man's Red, which defeats the purpose of a 5D sized cam, to a degree. I see no advantage of the 5D2 over a Sony EX1 for low budget HD video.
Its kind of a novelty that is producing lots and lots and lots of horrible reels, and may be a few really really really good ones.
Edit: Out of respect for Vincent I decided to remove my rant about flood gates and motion.
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Where is the rub? They look great but why so cheap? I am now investigating . . .
I'm skeptical of these lights since it takes three bulbs for any kind of power, though I also question the power of HMI's in general.
I rent 2.5k Arri Fresnels all the time and running two or three usually soft bounced into either book ends or through a 4x or 12x rag and using a medium format back at 200 iso puts it right on the limit, like 1/60th at 5.6, where as with a dslr I can bump it too 640 and hold it.
Sill I don't really believe that HMI's produce 2x 3x the power of tungsten, as I've used both in the same setting and at the close to the same wattage didn't see much difference.
Also if working in a blacked out studio or location without window lights, I like the look of tungsten vs. HMI. New hmI bulbs are very blue and i find difficult for skin tones and though everyone says tungsten destroys the blue channel I've yet to see it do anything but look pretty, so I don't know.
These were shot with the 1ds3, not a lot of movement, obviously, but still shot at a fairly high iso and quick enough shutter and dof to work with a 1k. The top image was a fresnel, with a little bit of spun, the bottom was diffused through a box and flagged.
[attachment=20497:tungsten1k.jpg]
The earlier Canons had a difficult time going to a low enough Kelvin, not to have a lot of orange to the file, where the p30+ was beautiful with tungsten, though now the 1ds3 goes to tungsten quite easily.
Still, I'd like to see how these hid lights work, because the price looks good, I just wonder at this price if they are really usable and will work long term.
Personally, I don't think any of these smaller hot lights work well with people that are moving at any moderate speed, unless you use a Nikon at 1000 iso and then it's iffy.
I would like to see higher pixel cameras with higher iso and moderate powered (and priced) continuous lights that would work both with stills and motion.
We'll see.
BC
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I love tungsten for skin tones. Head and shoulders at 1.8 with the 85 1.2 and an Arri 750 Fresnel, iso 400-640-800, with some light tough spun as difussion (not the frost), is nice. Gets the shutter up above 80 - 180 or so.
I don't know about those HID lights. I usually don't trust lighting gear if I haven't seen them being loaded into grip trucks by guys with mulets who live in Palmdale and drive Toyota pick-ups with "YO" on the back. By that I mean grips.
h
I'm skeptical of these lights since it takes three bulbs for any kind of power, though I also question the power of HMI's in general.
I rent 2.5k Arri Fresnels all the time and running two or three usually soft bounced into either book ends or through a 4x or 12x rag and using a medium format back at 200 iso puts it right on the limit, like 1/60th at 5.6, where as with a dslr I can bump it too 640 and hold it.
Sill I don't really believe that HMI's produce 2x 3x the power of tungsten, as I've used both in the same setting and at the close to the same wattage didn't see much difference.
Also if working in a blacked out studio or location without window lights, I like the look of tungsten vs. HMI. New hmI bulbs are very blue and i find difficult for skin tones and though everyone says tungsten destroys the blue channel I've yet to see it do anything but look pretty, so I don't know.
These were shot with the 1ds3, not a lot of movement, obviously, but still shot at a fairly high iso and quick enough shutter and dof to work with a 1k. The top image was a fresnel, with a little bit of spun, the bottom was diffused through a box and flagged.
[attachment=20497:tungsten1k.jpg]
The earlier Canons had a difficult time going to a low enough Kelvin, not to have a lot of orange to the file, where the p30+ was beautiful with tungsten, though now the 1ds3 goes to tungsten quite easily.
Still, I'd like to see how these hid lights work, because the price looks good, I just wonder at this price if they are really usable and will work long term.
Personally, I don't think any of these smaller hot lights work well with people that are moving at any moderate speed, unless you use a Nikon at 1000 iso and then it's iffy.
I would like to see higher pixel cameras with higher iso and moderate powered (and priced) continuous lights that would work both with stills and motion.
We'll see.
BC
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They are trying to make the DSLRs a poor man's Red, which defeats the purpose of a 5D sized cam, to a degree. I see no advantage of the 5D2 over a Sony EX1 for low budget HD video.
Its kind of a novelty that is producing lots and lots and lots of horrible reels, and may be a few really really really good ones.
Edit: Out of respect for Vincent I decided to remove my rant about flood gates and motion.
i read your rant and as much as i understand what you are saying, i don't think it is fair to blame him for any of it...the T/S thing is annoying....he is just the guy who came at the right time and did the right thing with the right tool...
here (http://www.aphotoeditor.com/) is a good interview with him....he makes a lot of sense....
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i read your rant and as much as i understand what you are saying, i don't think it is fair to blame him for any of it...the T/S thing is annoying....he is just the guy who came at the right time and did the right thing with the right tool...
here (http://www.aphotoeditor.com/) is a good interview with him....he makes a lot of sense....
I agree with you, I do. From what I've heard he is a standup guy, as well. My rant was really against the hype, not the man or his work, which is why I took it down.
I'll try not to post after being up all night in an edit suite!
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I agree with you, I do. From what I've heard he is a standup guy, as well. My rant was really against the hype, not the man or his work, which is why I took it down.
I'll try not to post after being up all night in an edit suite!
if you post a disclaimer before a rant it's not really a rant anyway....
i am getting a little bored with the red hype...i am probably wrong and ignorant, but i haven't seen anything really revolutionary out of that either...yes, i have seen some amazing stuff....but i have seen some amazing stuff from the canons as well....i am just wondering when all the big announcements will be products...i was so excited about someone at least planing on producing a big sensor camera...afaik not even the full frame 35mm is shipping.....just wondering when they will actually deliver....
i was surprised to read that vincent can keep the production costs with canon to 1/2 or 1/3 compared to red.....that is huge....
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can keep the production costs with canon to 1/2 or 1/3 compared to red.....that is huge....
A friend of mine who is a good photographer says to me why would any still photographer go into motion, because in comparison to their still talents vs. motion talents, motion is a still photographer's C game.
I don't disagree and not singling out any one person or talent, 90% of the video work you see on the web and 99% of these type of video promos for camera companies are at best a B game and usually C to D, when you compare the final result to high end theatrical or commercial productions.
But . . . when you step back and think about it, the Web is the C game when it comes to publishing, video, entertainment and compared to most forms of established, traditional media and right now clients do ask for video in conjunction with a still shoot, even if it's a little shaky, a little off color or a little disjointed in how it tells the story.
Not that you can't shoot a great project with a 5d, but if you have serious production money and serious production values, then why do it on a $200 per day rental camera when there is a world full of panaflex's and arriflex's or for that matter RED rentals that are falling out of the trees and stacked on shelves in just about every major city.
This RED vs 5d thing reminds me of the medium format vs. dslr conversation that goes on and on. Yes I am sure the RED shoots a superior motion segment compared to the 5d (except in extremely low light), but what is the intended medium, a 180 ft. screen of a 3" web movie?
And whether you shoot a 5k or 2k camera, it's all at it's biggest going to be 1920 across. (I know there is a difference in recording methods, but regardless 1920 is 1920).
Now I agree with TMark that I don't see the point of taking the goodness of the 5d which is small, quick and light and locking it down with 1000lbs of accessories, remote focus pulling from lcd's and using it as a stationary camera, just because you can do it. At that point, rentals and end cost you could go the RED route or really just shoot film, because the cost is not that much different.
It's interesting, I was just inches away from buying a RED and I'm talking about credit card in hand, list made out, phone number dialed, then I hung up the phone, because I had a flashback of my medium format experiment and realized for a sometimes 20% quality improvement over a dslr, I was going to spend double, triple, even quadruple the costs of a 5d and a lot of what RED says is still to come, plus the learning curve. It just was way too much deju vu.
Plus you have the feeling that at any moment, Canon can just say "watch this" and come out with a 8000 iso, 4k raw shooting dslr, that sells for 6 grand. (I'm not saying they will, but I think we all know they can).
Also in today's market, (finances, not the photography market) cash is king and spending on the hope of business to come is risky business.
I'm all for investing in my business and invested in the video learning curve all the way back to the xl1 days, but video/stills or still/video combination shoots are still in the their infancy in regards to a business model. Some clients pay quite well, some want video thrown is as an add on, but regardless, the business model is not yet set and who pays what is still an ongoing process, what takes precedent, the stills or the video is also very project dependent.
As far as VL's videos, they nice, Spielberg won't lose any sleep and by VL's his own admission the whole idea of a high iso, small camera is the price and speed of production, but you can't knock him for his 15 minutes in the sun, the trick is to stretch it to a few years and at that point your really busting heads with some big guys.
Still, I think all of this video stuff is in it's infancy. People want it, I get asked for it every project, though few clients have a real game plan on where it's exactly going to run, how it's going to be used, it's just a reflection of the economic times. They spend X dollars on still production so might as well add a few more bucks and get some motion.
They key to all of this is how the photographer makes it profitable and more importantly usable for a client. Having a photo assistant double as a sound technician doesn't cut it, using a still tripod with a 50mm Canon 1.4 lens doesn't lend itself to first rate movie making. Eventually it all evens out and whether your a still photographer or a commercial director, you've got to pay real money and hire the real pros.
Regardless, the professionals using the 5d2 are still spending as much on production as ever before, they're just using little cameras instead of big ones.
http://vimeo.com/9243537 (http://vimeo.com/9243537)
P.S.
Now what I really would have thought would happen with the internet/video/vimeo/youtube revolution would be some very smart, hip talents out there making some very smart, ground breaking videos. You know dropping a little ipod nano into a Martini glass and shooting in a club scene, mounting cameras on some hot chicks neck as she parties through the night, something that was different, something that traditional film making just isn't set up for.
Maybe it's out there, I've seen a few, but finding them on utube is kind of like typing in the words business on Getty One. You get about 10,000 links to a bunch of stuff nobody wants to see.
IMO.
BC
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Wow ! Now this is a good discussion . I'm enjoying theis thread.
Thanks.
Tim
www.tjphoto.net
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Plus you have the feeling that at any moment, Canon can just say "watch this" and come out with a 8000 iso, 4k raw shooting dslr, that sells for 6 grand. (I'm not saying they will, but I think we all know they can).
BC
rumor has it that the 5DIII is being tested right now and shoots raw video.....the dsIV will be out sooner then later and will not have raw video (but better, nicer, faster,blablabla HD variable framerates,...)....24fps upgrade for 5DII in a couple of weeks.....
let's not forget that canon had NO CLUE that this would be a camera used for terminator, 24,.....and vincent....otherwise they would have put in the 24fps right away....HD video was clearly an afterthought....meant as a bonus for an already great camera.....
this (http://www.aphotoeditor.com/2010/02/11/times-are-changing-less-books-more-video-and-profits-are-up/) is an interesting quote: 80% of all jobs come with with requests for a reel.....and not only still guys are asked to shoot video....what used to be a production for a commercial now sounds like a still shoot used to be...can we cover this and that angle as well, we might need a little more here and there....and this as well.....because people want to cover everything because they don't know what will be used where...yet...that might be the biggest problem with the 5DII...clients think you can just flip the switch and shoot video...which will never be the case...
either way this is clearly the beginning...we have micro 4/3 cams shooting very nice HD video and we don't know what the delivery will be in 2 years...ipad? probably....hulu becoming subscription based, itunes selling shows for .99.....
i always wonder what the great film makers in the 60s and 70s would do with a 5DII and a macbook pro and FCP....(they would probably use imovie...)....shoot movies all day long? put out 4 a year? one more pretentious/artsy then the next? regardless, it still comes down to a great idea, a great script and good acting and i don't think that comes together 4 times a year, no matter how genius you are.....orson welles could probably shoot something amazing on an iphone (he was REALLY into video and the possibilities before his death..) but then again, maybe he would just stick with film, why not?
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You got it.
Canon drops this tech and had no idea how it will be used. I think we the "content providers" are trying to figure it out as well. It seems to be going two ways: 1. film/video people are teating it like a cheap cinema camera; and 2. stills guys are trying to integrate it into their stills shoots, with mixed results. (That guy James Russel does a good job, but he seems to have background in film, or at least knows all about it.) The film people are using it as they would a Red or an XL2 or EX1, maybe they fit it into a smaller space, maye they have 10 rolling at once. Its not much impact for them. Then there are the stills guys. I haven't seen much that is A Game. I think this is because, to some degree, the 5D2's motion capability is an answer to a question stills guys didn't ask, although their clients did ask for video. So we have reluctant stills guys and gals faced with having to tell a story and the problem of scale and difficulty of film production. I think this is why we don't see amazing 5d2 stuff from most stills shooters.
The difficulty of producing motion is a gate keeper in its self, which is better than cost being the gate keeper. Motion is harder than a stills shoot. You have more to worry about, and the thing that many stills guys do not get is that you have to collaborate and delegate. You cannot do it alone, and your production depends on the competency of your crew. With stills, if the shiz hits the fan, you can set your lights, tether yourself up, direct the model, adjust lighting, etc. You can even do the M/U, or the model can. You can't direct, operate the camera, be a dolly grip, pull focus, boom the shot, be the script supervisor, be the continuity kitten, etc. Recording sound is an art. Proper boom technique, perspective sound, location mixing. There is a reason that locaqtion sound mixers get academy awards.Then post starts where the number of programs and editing and music and licensing . . . . blah blah blah. Its just not a one man deal.
I think the real action is in the skate video/multimedia pieces being made by teenagers. I was at a party last summer in Brooklyn and all these young skaters showed up. They were talking about skating and videos, and stills, and music and flash and websites and illustration. To them its all seamless, one media experience on an HD monitor. It has motion and stills and music and they tell stories of their skating and vandalism. These kids are the future and they will fully explout the video dslrs to their fullest. I'll try to find some links.
A friend of mine who is a good photographer says to me why would any still photographer go into motion, because in comparison to their still talents vs. motion talents, motion is a still photographer's C game.
I don't disagree and not singling out any one person or talent, 90% of the video work you see on the web and 99% of these type of video promos for camera companies are at best a B game and usually C to D, when you compare the final result to high end theatrical or commercial productions.
But . . . when you step back and think about it, the Web is the C game when it comes to publishing, video, entertainment and compared to most forms of established, traditional media and right now clients do ask for video in conjunction with a still shoot, even if it's a little shaky, a little off color or a little disjointed in how it tells the story.
Not that you can't shoot a great project with a 5d, but if you have serious production money and serious production values, then why do it on a $200 per day rental camera when there is a world full of panaflex's and arriflex's or for that matter RED rentals that are falling out of the trees and stacked on shelves in just about every major city.
This RED vs 5d thing reminds me of the medium format vs. dslr conversation that goes on and on. Yes I am sure the RED shoots a superior motion segment compared to the 5d (except in extremely low light), but what is the intended medium, a 180 ft. screen of a 3" web movie?
And whether you shoot a 5k or 2k camera, it's all at it's biggest going to be 1920 across. (I know there is a difference in recording methods, but regardless 1920 is 1920).
Now I agree with TMark that I don't see the point of taking the goodness of the 5d which is small, quick and light and locking it down with 1000lbs of accessories, remote focus pulling from lcd's and using it as a stationary camera, just because you can do it. At that point, rentals and end cost you could go the RED route or really just shoot film, because the cost is not that much different.
It's interesting, I was just inches away from buying a RED and I'm talking about credit card in hand, list made out, phone number dialed, then I hung up the phone, because I had a flashback of my medium format experiment and realized for a sometimes 20% quality improvement over a dslr, I was going to spend double, triple, even quadruple the costs of a 5d and a lot of what RED says is still to come, plus the learning curve. It just was way too much deju vu.
Plus you have the feeling that at any moment, Canon can just say "watch this" and come out with a 8000 iso, 4k raw shooting dslr, that sells for 6 grand. (I'm not saying they will, but I think we all know they can).
Also in today's market, (finances, not the photography market) cash is king and spending on the hope of business to come is risky business.
I'm all for investing in my business and invested in the video learning curve all the way back to the xl1 days, but video/stills or still/video combination shoots are still in the their infancy in regards to a business model. Some clients pay quite well, some want video thrown is as an add on, but regardless, the business model is not yet set and who pays what is still an ongoing process, what takes precedent, the stills or the video is also very project dependent.
As far as VL's videos, they nice, Spielberg won't lose any sleep and by VL's his own admission the whole idea of a high iso, small camera is the price and speed of production, but you can't knock him for his 15 minutes in the sun, the trick is to stretch it to a few years and at that point your really busting heads with some big guys.
Still, I think all of this video stuff is in it's infancy. People want it, I get asked for it every project, though few clients have a real game plan on where it's exactly going to run, how it's going to be used, it's just a reflection of the economic times. They spend X dollars on still production so might as well add a few more bucks and get some motion.
They key to all of this is how the photographer makes it profitable and more importantly usable for a client. Having a photo assistant double as a sound technician doesn't cut it, using a still tripod with a 50mm Canon 1.4 lens doesn't lend itself to first rate movie making. Eventually it all evens out and whether your a still photographer or a commercial director, you've got to pay real money and hire the real pros.
Regardless, the professionals using the 5d2 are still spending as much on production as ever before, they're just using little cameras instead of big ones.
http://vimeo.com/9243537 (http://vimeo.com/9243537)
P.S.
Now what I really would have thought would happen with the internet/video/vimeo/youtube revolution would be some very smart, hip talents out there making some very smart, ground breaking videos. You know dropping a little ipod nano into a Martini glass and shooting in a club scene, mounting cameras on some hot chicks neck as she parties through the night, something that was different, something that traditional film making just isn't set up for.
Maybe it's out there, I've seen a few, but finding them on utube is kind of like typing in the words business on Getty One. You get about 10,000 links to a bunch of stuff nobody wants to see.
IMO.
BC
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I used to live next door to orson on Stanley Street off of Hollywood Blvd, in the hills. He was imposing, but very kind. He wore mu mus and smoked cigars. He had a Newfoundland that looked like him.
I think that these low cost high quality dslr cams will have a negligable impact on traditional cinema. Slap a matt box and pull focus on a 5d2 and it might as well be anything else that can be rented. If the production is good, the camera shouldn't matter.
Stills shooters are struggling to figure it out. Some will make the transition, some won't. I think the revolution is coming from the young kids who are not weighed down with baggage and catagorizations. They shoot for monitors and (soon) iPads. They don't care how Rollei lenses "draw" or blue channel noise.
I agree about the magic not happening four times a year. I don't think that thes ecams would have resulted in a great many new features from Scorsese, maybe shorts, but not features. The cost of features isn't in film and processing, or camera rental. The production costs remain the same, so what if they save $400 a day on camera rental? Maybe we would have some really cool Scorsese and Deniro shorts, all low budget but well acted, well directed.
rumor has it that the 5DIII is being tested right now and shoots raw video.....the dsIV will be out sooner then later and will not have raw video (but better, nicer, faster,blablabla HD variable framerates,...)....24fps upgrade for 5DII in a couple of weeks.....
let's not forget that canon had NO CLUE that this would be a camera used for terminator, 24,.....and vincent....otherwise they would have put in the 24fps right away....HD video was clearly an afterthought....meant as a bonus for an already great camera.....
this (http://www.aphotoeditor.com/2010/02/11/times-are-changing-less-books-more-video-and-profits-are-up/) is an interesting quote: 80% of all jobs come with with requests for a reel.....and not only still guys are asked to shoot video....what used to be a production for a commercial now sounds like a still shoot used to be...can we cover this and that angle as well, we might need a little more here and there....and this as well.....because people want to cover everything because they don't know what will be used where...yet...that might be the biggest problem with the 5DII...clients think you can just flip the switch and shoot video...which will never be the case...
either way this is clearly the beginning...we have micro 4/3 cams shooting very nice HD video and we don't know what the delivery will be in 2 years...ipad? probably....hulu becoming subscription based, itunes selling shows for .99.....
i always wonder what the great film makers in the 60s and 70s would do with a 5DII and a macbook pro and FCP....(they would probably use imovie...)....shoot movies all day long? put out 4 a year? one more pretentious/artsy then the next? regardless, it still comes down to a great idea, a great script and good acting and i don't think that comes together 4 times a year, no matter how genius you are.....orson welles could probably shoot something amazing on an iphone (he was REALLY into video and the possibilities before his death..) but then again, maybe he would just stick with film, why not?
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I I think the revolution is coming from the young kids who are not weighed down with baggage and catagorizations.
The thing I find interesting that the kids I hire, at least the still kid assistants mostly don't give a s**t bout video.
One I hire is pretty good, but the other ones they just shoot stills, heck they'd rather shoot still film with an RZ and constantly talk about tradition.
I guess it's me, but I think tradition in the photos for money biz is kinda funny considering that we're only a couple of generations away from the founders of our industry, so tradition is not that long a time, but hey let the kids dream.
Anyway, I guess the medium format guys on this forum are asking "what's dis gotta do bout us" and here goes . . . if you shoot medium format still cameras for a living' somebody is gonna ask you to shoot motion, unless you got an Uncle at Conde Nast or you shoot passport photos.
Everybody wants motion and like I said before even if they don't have a plan for it, they want it.
So if your shooting medium format of anything that breaths, you gotta find a way to either mount two lights in one fixture, or spend a whole lot of time moving lights and shooting it twice. That happens now, but with higher iso cameras, more effecient hmis with easier to use fixtures more people are gonna be looking at more systems that work well on the same set. Maybe not the same exact camera, but the same exact lighting.
In so many ways, at least for advertising, it's all morphing together. A still shoot looks a whole lot like a small motion/film/video shoot and vice versa and just like now you expect your first assistant to know how to tether your camera, (though 4 years ago you hired a dedicated digital tech) the next phase is the first assistant is going to have to know how to place T-marks and do follow focus.
That doen'ts mean that big time commercials are all gonna be shot by a still guy with a RED or 5d anymore than Wonka Wai is going to become a fashion still photographer, though I think it's all kind of funny because the dedicated film crews I hire are all positive that stills pay more money, all the still crews think the film guys make bank.
It's interesting.
BC
P.S. Now if I was gonna start again as a full time director, today I'd build my reel around film, because working with film is a lot cheaper than most people think. Recanned stock is pretty cheap, processing will cut you a deal and there are systems in place for getting almost any color look you want with film.
Try to color effect some dv footage and do the same with film and with film there is 100 years of practice, dv is just like digital stillls, it's a roll your own process. The only problem is you gotta be pretty good to shoot film cause their ain't no pristine previews and one hair in a gate is the end of the world.
I've tried to get me client to let us shoot film time after time and they just have this thought that film is a monster, video is easy and neither are true, though clients love that instant gradification of a hdv monitor, (for stills and motion).
Regardless, there ain't nothing prettier than 35mm motion picture film shot right.
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I'll never own a studio again and will never shoot any films, but I am delighted to read this chat at this level. Almost as enjoyable an experience as when I was still working!
¡Muchas gracias!
Rob C
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Lots of the kids in their mid-20's want all analogue, which is how Urban Outfitters stays in business. That generation is a bit Romantic, in the John Keats/Goethe sense. They idealize what they only passingly remember as kids. They mourn the death of the past and live a digital tragedy. Ok that was overly dramatic, but they really, really yurn for emotion, for true feeling, which is where some of the trends come from (feavershish photo blog). I dig that myself. Emotion is what we are after as photographers, and the (new) New Romantics think analogue is a more pure bridge to the heart. In a way I agree but it can get in the way of producing something, and process can crowed out emotion.
Back to the kids:
The kids I'm talking about are in high school, they are the skate kids you see being chased off by security at Ikea and parking garages around the country. They roll up to a skate spot, shoot video with an HD handy cam, shoot stills with a Digital Rebel. They have iPods/iPhones. They are the target market, in a few years anyway, for advertisers. They don't have time for tradition, they don't give a FCUK about the romance of analogue. They are unencumbered by the past.
Re Shooting 35mm Cine Film: I thinks its amazing. I even rolled some Kodak Vision2 500 iso movie film into 35mm cassetes to shoot in my Nikon. Its awesome. Kodak gives this stuff away. Any stock that about to expire can be yours for free or almost free, if you are just shooting a reel or an Indy. You just have to ask. Labs will cut big deals on processing, just to keep their lines going. Even for full freight commercial shoots, its not a significant portion of a production budget. Telecine can get pricey, though.
It is all morphing together, and its taking me to places I never really thought I would go. Most, if not all, of the commercial work I do now is a motion shoot with stills as the add on, but I think that is really a function of how we market ourselves, which is as primarily a motion production company.
Its a brave new world.
The thing I find interesting that the kids I hire, at least the still kid assistants mostly don't give a s**t bout video.
One I hire is pretty good, but the other ones they just shoot stills, heck they'd rather shoot still film with an RZ and constantly talk about tradition.
I guess it's me, but I think tradition in the photos for money biz is kinda funny considering that we're only a couple of generations away from the founders of our industry, so tradition is not that long a time, but hey let the kids dream.
Anyway, I guess the medium format guys on this forum are asking "what's dis gotta do bout us" and here goes . . . if you shoot medium format still cameras for a living' somebody is gonna ask you to shoot motion, unless you got an Uncle at Conde Nast or you shoot passport photos.
Everybody wants motion and like I said before even if they don't have a plan for it, they want it.
So if your shooting medium format of anything that breaths, you gotta find a way to either mount two lights in one fixture, or spend a whole lot of time moving lights and shooting it twice. That happens now, but with higher iso cameras, more effecient hmis with easier to use fixtures more people are gonna be looking at more systems that work well on the same set. Maybe not the same exact camera, but the same exact lighting.
In so many ways, at least for advertising, it's all morphing together. A still shoot looks a whole lot like a small motion/film/video shoot and vice versa and just like now you expect your first assistant to know how to tether your camera, (though 4 years ago you hired a dedicated digital tech) the next phase is the first assistant is going to have to know how to place T-marks and do follow focus.
That doen'ts mean that big time commercials are all gonna be shot by a still guy with a RED or 5d anymore than Wonka Wai is going to become a fashion still photographer, though I think it's all kind of funny because the dedicated film crews I hire are all positive that stills pay more money, all the still crews think the film guys make bank.
It's interesting.
BC
P.S. Now if I was gonna start again as a full time director, today I'd build my reel around film, because working with film is a lot cheaper than most people think. Recanned stock is pretty cheap, processing will cut you a deal and there are systems in place for getting almost any color look you want with film.
Try to color effect some dv footage and do the same with film and with film there is 100 years of practice, dv is just like digital stillls, it's a roll your own process. The only problem is you gotta be pretty good to shoot film cause their ain't no pristine previews and one hair in a gate is the end of the world.
I've tried to get me client to let us shoot film time after time and they just have this thought that film is a monster, video is easy and neither are true, though clients love that instant gradification of a hdv monitor, (for stills and motion).
Regardless, there ain't nothing prettier than 35mm motion picture film shot right.
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The difficulty of producing motion is a gate keeper in its self, which is better than cost being the gate keeper. Motion is harder than a stills shoot. You have more to worry about, and the thing that many stills guys do not get is that you have to collaborate and delegate.
With just a few changes in technology we can limit crew and shoot better video and stills. It's not exactly here yet, but getting closer and limiting crew, costs and adding value to a project is the way of working today.
I've worked through a few "recessions" and advertising and publishing is always the first hit.
The key is not to become a commodity.
The key to not becoming a commodity is to be able to offer a lot, business, production, a certain amount of art and obviously a lot of useable content, while staying within budget.
It's a real balancing act.
We recently completed a large still project that was shot in record volume and time, running two parallel sets. Though time didn't permit full video production of every set, we shot video when we could with the 5d2 in small segments. This wasn't a client demand, even a client wish, we took it upon ourself to do this.
Later during the project we had the clips up and running on a separate tech station for client review. The clients and creatives were thrilled, but all said, :"uh I guess we should use it but we don't know where or if" . . . or something like that.
End story . . . to date we have color grade over 20 clips and all are in use as I write this. I've seen this before on combination projects and at the end of the run the video gets more play, more viewership and has a longer life than the still imagery. At least in my experience.
Now today, it's very difficult to give stills and video the same priority and quality. Some has to do with concept and style a lot has to do with the equipment we use. There are no very high resolution still cameras that capture anything remotely close to medium quick movement and hold great detail without flash or hugh volumes of light due to their low iso. They're are no continuous sources that produce huge quantities of light without a lot of amps coming out of the wall.
Now once again how does any of this have reference to this thread on HMI's or in medium format in general? Well to begin with I don't believe it's the format that matters, it's the resulting file. A clean 1600 iso 20 mpx file is much more usable than a noisy 1500 iso 40 mpx file.
A 500 watt hmi may work in a Par fixture with no diffusion but won't work in most combination settings with diffusion. Well, it will work in video with the 5d2* at 2000 iso (which in video is surprisingly quite smooth and detailed at that speed), but once again there is no still camera that will go to 2000 iso at 20 something mpx with clean files.
So at stage in camera development I'd like to see profoto or someone come out with a system that is flash with a continuous daylight balanced modeling light (that is proportional). Maybe the modeling light is 500 watts and the head has a no noise fan.
So instead of combo cams we start talking about combo lights.
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*this probably belongs in another section but the 5d2 is not without it's issues in video. High iso is good, usability and functions are easy, focus is manual, but file issues crop up with aliasing and artifacts. Shoot a subject in a zippered jacket and the zipper will turn to christmas tree lights, shoot a red shell top and you'll get moire like movement. Like stills all can be fixed and like stills it's time consuming. Now the funny thing is shoot a Red or even 35mm motion film and you probably won't have these issues, UNTIL you compress it for the web and they come back, just like you shot it with a 5d2.
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I agree with gwitif and Tmark that I like the work on that feverish photo blog. It looks real, it looks analog it looks interesting. I don't think any of us that have worked for any amount of time have not shot something like this because it's inexpensive, it's all light, composition and fun and it's not that hard.
The catch is you might get hired because you have this type of work on your site, but when the day comes and money is on the table the look of a commercial project is very different than what you initially showed to get the project.
Commerce comes with committees, client dictates and group decisions. Should the woman running with sun behind her be blonde and pale skin . . . no let's go with a olive skin and dark hair to reach a broader market, should the woman be running with abandon and look sexy, well no not too sexy and remember she can't be jiggling . . . also don't forget the wedding ring and it would be nice to have a kid in the shot.
From what becomes a fun day at the beach with a crew of three, becomes an event with RV's generators, gaffers and cable pullers. Casting goes from looking at cards and calling in two models, to casting over 200 people and catering changes from a take away salad to full blown catering truck(s).
But then again we all know that.
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Bottom line, for commerce video is not a head in the sand proposition. It's here it's being used, it's being asked for it's required and if your gonna work, you have to know how to do both.
The trick is doing both well.
IMO
BC
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So at stage in camera development I'd like to see profoto or someone come out with a system that is flash with a continuous daylight balanced modeling light (that is proportional). Maybe the modeling light is 500 watts and the head has a no noise fan.
So instead of combo cams we start talking about combo lights.
BC
BC,
Hensel had this combo light a few years ago, called the TwinStar:
http://www.equinoximaging.com/lights/twinstarspec.html (http://www.equinoximaging.com/lights/twinstarspec.html)
Billy
Edit: Hensel Twinstar was flash head with 575W daylight modeling lamp.
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i think broncolor can run 500 w lights on 220? at least some heads....
i know at least one person on that feverish blog shoots all digital but it really does not matter...the finished product is what counts.....
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i think broncolor can run 500 w lights on 220? at least some heads....
Yes, 650 watts on 220 volt, which is a decent setup for those who have 220!
I also have some Ianiro Red Head tungsten, those mix fairly well with the Bron modelling lights. In most cases going from 110 to 220 (on those packs that support both) is just a matter of swapping modelling bulbs. Also useful if you can rent a 220 volt capable Honda or similar generator, or for very short duration on the Verso.
I bought a couple of the Bron 575 HMI a few years ago when I was sharing a building with some video production folks. With high gain reflectors, like the Bron Paras, the PAR reflectors with lenses, or even some beauty dishes like the Mola the output was pretty decent. Used prices on those should be pretty good, given the economy.
It is nice to be able to use the same modifiers for still and video setups. Though the increasing demands for video are putting pressure on the still kit.
Cheers,
Michael
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process can crowed out emotion ....
Its a brave new world.
The question is how to leverage what you do know to keep you going in a new niche until you reach a level of skill comparable to your previous discipline.
As an oldster in a new medium, vision and pure spark and creativity are not going to be my forte day one. Project management, on time and on budget delivery, a level head, creative problem solving, and professionalism are what I can offer to start. Maybe you can collaborte with someone who has creative vision, but a lack of experience, to create a balanced team? Who is gong to hand a 22 year old a $500K budget?
It is somewhat akin to the dot com boom in the 90's. Firms were hiring English and Anthropology majors with little experience, often right out of college. But once you got up and going, database management and load balancing and backups and documentation and all of those old, obsolete, outdated professional IT skills suddenly became important again. And what do you know, all that much had not really changed when it came to managing a growing organization.
Full disclosure - I have not been working for 3 1/2 years. Plus, chronic pain and meds dull my mind enough that I am impessed by a well executed grocery list ("crackers, saltines" - wow, I never thought to specify the **kind** of crackers!)
I've always been a proponent of content over pure technique (I came up though fine art school. ) But as your life changes - and In this economy - you play the hand you have.
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Who is gong to hand a 22 year old a $500K budget?
you would be surprised.....
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Back to the topic, has anyone heard of these? Lowel 400W HMI, aw them on ebay
http://cgi.ebay.com/Lowel-400W-HMI-Dayligh...#ht_5345wt_1165 (http://cgi.ebay.com/Lowel-400W-HMI-Daylight-lighting-kit-Ballast-Extras_W0QQitemZ200441645730QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Photography_StudioEquipment_RL?hash=item2eab40caa2#ht_5345wt_1165)
never heard of them before, perhaps they are only available in the UK? I use the joker HMI quite a bit, it could be interesting if these provided an alternative...
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Who is gong to hand a 22 year old a $500K budget?
The 20 something AD who was hired after they fired the 50 year old guy with experience because he wanted a real salary.
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The 20 something AD who was hired after they fired the 50 year old guy with experience because he wanted a real salary.
And because the 20 year old didn't have experience in larger productions, the show took three times as long to shoot, and ran over budget/over schedule. They end up burning money on an inefficient production rather than pay higher wages to the crew. I've seen this over and over and over.
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....snip the show took three times as long to shoot....snip.....
The cops always say follow the money and usually when I hear these stories it isn't as much generational as it is poorly planed business or better explained . . . it's about the money.
The client offers much less that it takes to do proper production, the photographer/director/producer agree to the terms because they need to generate something and then the client adds requests, hence it goes 3 times the estimated price, or better put, back to the price it should have been in the first place.
A client I've worked with a number of years said to me, photography has become very expensive (I don't know if he meant me or photography in general) and my response was yes, but expectations and life in general has become very expensive.
If you started in the film days, raise you hand if you ever thought you would own a $7,000 35mm camera, a $30,000 medium format camera, or that your storage expenses of a shoot would cost more than 12 folders and a filing cabinet?
Raise your hand if you ever thought that owning a $5,000 continuous light fixture was "normal" or that every project would require about 2 days of computer time prior to production and 3 days (per shoot day) of computer time in post production . . . for stills.
It's just an expensive industry and once I looked at my still sets and realized they were just miniature versions of a movie set I realized then and there that still and motion photography were going to start merging in some way and the costs would come much closer together.
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BJNY
I was at a store Saturday that use to carry a lot of Hensel and tried to find out about the combination HMI and strobes you mentioned but they knew nothing about them and don't sell much Hensel anymore.
Actually as you know the only still lighting standards of our industry are profoto and maybe a little bit of broncolor. Everything else is much smaller in market share and use and I assume just because of the availability of rentals.
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BJNY
I was at a store Saturday that use to carry a lot of Hensel and tried to find out about the combination HMI and strobes you mentioned but they knew nothing about them and don't sell much Hensel anymore.
Actually as you know the only still lighting standards of our industry are profoto and maybe a little bit of broncolor. Everything else is much smaller in market share and use and I assume just because of the availability of rentals.
BC,
How would you be using combo lights....in a softbox or bounced?
Billy
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Very interesting thoughts and experiences, Tmark and James, thanks for sharing !
I'm integrating 3D modelling into my (still life) photography now, but some sort of moving pictures might well be the next step - on a smaller scale than what you described.
As for the OT, Dedolights (http://www.dedolight.com) have been my fav for many years now; well made and extremely efficient design .
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Very interesting thoughts and experiences, Tmark and James, thanks for sharing !
I'm integrating 3D modelling into my (still life) photography now, but some sort of moving pictures might well be the next step - on a smaller scale than what you described.
As for the OT, http://www.dedolight.com/www/dedolight/default.php?la=0 (http://dedolights) have been my fav for many years now; well made and extremely efficient design .
Thanks.
I know continuous lights are a good investment . . . and I see the change coming in commerce and editorial;
When rental at Adorama says they have 34 5d2's and all are out and to everyone they speak to it's because of the motion capabilities.
When i see that Ipad commercial and a still image comes to life.
When I count it up and notice I moved over 3 terabytes of retouched still images on line through a fiber optic hookup working in LA, the retoucher in NY the client in Chicago.
When I see from the same "still" shoot 24 quick video clips we shot between sessions we color time and deliver.
When I see this:
http://www.zacuto.com/robert-rodriguez-canon-7d-zacuto (http://www.zacuto.com/robert-rodriguez-canon-7d-zacuto)
When I rent a still stage in NY last week and three signs are hanging on other studio walls "quiet video in progress"
When I have two video crews on my "still" shoot.
When I buy this little sprint 4g gizmo you set in a room and have instant semi high speed wi-fi for up to 4 computers.
I didn't want it this way, but it's here and it's going to come faster than any of us ever dreamed.
Our roles are changing, or morphing or something, but regardless of our title, if you are going to shoot for money your going to have something on set that shoots a lot of frames a second whether you personally do it or not.
BC
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snip
I was at a store Saturday that use to carry a lot of Hensel and tried to find out about the combination HMI and strobes you mentioned but they knew nothing about them and don't sell much Hensel anymore.
Actually as you know the only still lighting standards of our industry are profoto and maybe a little bit of broncolor. Everything else is much smaller in market share and use and I assume just because of the availability of rentals.
snip
Hi BC,
I remember the twinstar series. Must have been around 1996. Scan backs were popular at that time and you still used a lot of film these days. They had compact units and also a lampbase that could be used with a standard Hensel pack. These heads were equipped with HMI Modelling lights ( 575 and 1200W).
I phoned them today, the twinstars are discontinued for a long time and can only be found used from time to time. They do not plan a revival as they don´t have request for HMI.
Briese has finally launched their new website. You can see a lot of new focus light shapers that can be seriously used with flash and continuous light - tungsten or HMI.
Unfortunately it is only available in german language at the moment, but still worth looking: www.brieselichttechnik.de
Cheers, Ulf
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Who will be the first strobe manufacturers to offer flashheads with daylight-balanced LED continuous light.
Some of the LED fresnels from LitePanels have high output:
http://www.litepanels.com/lp/products/sola_led_fresnel.html (http://www.litepanels.com/lp/products/sola_led_fresnel.html)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ae46WGvSB20...player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ae46WGvSB20&feature=player_embedded)
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Hey Cooter I hope you got james Russell's permission before using his pics to illustrate your point..
Now speaks the Colonel's Lady an' now Judy O'Grady
Edmund
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The difficulty of producing motion is a gate keeper in its self, which is better than cost being the gate keeper.
We need some gate keepers in this biz.
Not to hinder creativity, but to filter out the noise and raise the budgets.
In a still production we hear it all the time. We'll fix it in post, he/she has a style that works in post, we'll do it in post, we'll change it in post, we'll add that in post. Post is fine for stills (well I guess) but it's cheap in post compared to motion and that's where the real separation between the two mediums come in.
Money/budget will be the gatekeeper in motion, even if the camera's sell for $50 and honestly as fascinating as the 5d2 is I don't really find it a 100% true cinema alternative. If anything the sensor is too big. Try pulling any focus at night, even lit and you'll see it pretty quickly.
Regardless, if motion becomes part of our game, (and I'm not even 100% sure of that once the economy picks up), the still guys migrating to motion are going to have to up their game big time to make any real impact on the artists that have trained in film/cinema/commercial production.
I guess in a few days we'll see what comes out, though as it stands I'd rather see Red make more moves forward than Canon. Just the cost of a RED is another gate keeper.
I don't mind cost being a gate keeper as long as it goes to the over/under line segment of the industry. Now low cost, that can be a problem.
BC
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I look at these amazing french films shot on location in the sixties with young casts, amateur 16mm equipment; then I look at the formulaic stuff which comes out of Hollywood these days with budgets that would put a small country to shame. Even the cinematography is often -brutal- that's the right word. And I wonder whether money as a gatekeeper is going to further quality. I don't think we need gatekeepers.
I tried to sell my fashion stuff to Elle in Paris. The response: We already have people we work with so we cannot work with you. But can we photocopy these images, please?
Edmund
We need some gate keepers in this biz.
Not to hinder creativity, but to filter out the noise and raise the budgets.
In a still production we hear it all the time. We'll fix it in post, he/she has a style that works in post, we'll do it in post, we'll change it in post, we'll add that in post. Post is fine for stills (well I guess) but it's cheap in post compared to motion and that's where the real separation between the two mediums come in.
Money/budget will be the gatekeeper in motion, even if the camera's sell for $50 and honestly as fascinating as the 5d2 is I don't really find it a 100% true cinema alternative. If anything the sensor is too big. Try pulling any focus at night, even lit and you'll see it pretty quickly.
Regardless, if motion becomes part of our game, (and I'm not even 100% sure of that once the economy picks up), the still guys migrating to motion are going to have to up their game big time to make any real impact on the artists that have trained in film/cinema/commercial production.
I guess in a few days we'll see what comes out, though as it stands I'd rather see Red make more moves forward than Canon. Just the cost of a RED is another gate keeper.
I don't mind cost being a gate keeper as long as it goes to the over/under line segment of the industry. Now low cost, that can be a problem.
BC
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You are confusing business and art. The French New Wave was the product of a vital time, and was not about business. I doubt Goddard was looking at revenue projections when planning Breathless. Budgets for crappy films are big because movies are big business, with big returns and big risk. Much of Hollywood/Bollywood and the cliche, self-referential, smug and comfortable Canal + productions are business ventures above all.
Cliche crap is always coming out of global cinema. Look at any Gerard Depardu movie from the 70's. The last 15 years have been hard of French film. The films that do well, like Amalie, reflect a retreat into a cliche of a France that never really existed. New Orleans before the storm was like that as well. Its an inward turn, a retreat into sappy Romantacism. The American version of this can be found in the horrid, horrid, Titanic. I'd rather watch 70's French films of Gerard Depardu juggling on the beach at Frejus tha sit through Titanic.
That being said, there are great low(er) budget films from every country. They seem to win awards, like Hurt Locker, Precious, Slumdog Millionaire. Look at Reservoir Dogs, a great movie shot and edited for $1M. Or The Wrestler, shot by Darin Aronovsky on 16mm, real cheap.
I look at these amazing french films shot on location in the sixties with young casts, amateur 16mm equipment; then I look at the formulaic stuff which comes out of Hollywood these days with budgets that would put a small country to shame. Even the cinematography is often -brutal- that's the right word. And I wonder whether money as a gatekeeper is going to further quality. I don't think we need gatekeepers.
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I have little patience for french autoerotic narcissism. Besides which I'm an engineer by training so I wouldn't get it anyway.
However, I have bought some packs of Rohmer DVDs recently, and they are totally amazing in spite of heavy handed voice over narration and black and white with amateur cameras. There is a sincere wish to create, and sometimes even to entertain, in there
- once you establish money as a gatekeeper as our globe trotting friend Bernie the Hooter suggests, you remove freshness from the equation and replace it with professionalism.
And in fact one can see the deletrious effects of money in the progression of Rohmer shorts, as the moolah comes in and he moves from amateur B&W to professionally shot color film, the acting becomes more rehearsed, the cinematography is pretty, the scenes are longer and less impressionistic, and the films become boring.
Edmund
You are confusing business and art. The French New Wave was the product of a vital time, and was not about business. I doubt Goddard was looking at revenue projections when planning Breathless. Budgets for crappy films are big because movies are big business, with big returns and big risk. Much of Hollywood/Bollywood and the cliche, self-referential, smug and comfortable Canal + productions are business ventures above all.
Cliche crap is always coming out of global cinema. Look at any Gerard Depardu movie from the 70's. The last 15 years have been hard of French film. The films that do well, like Amalie, reflect a retreat into a cliche of a France that never really existed. New Orleans before the storm was like that as well. Its an inward turn, a retreat into sappy Romantacism. The American version of this can be found in the horrid, horrid, Titanic. I'd rather watch 70's French films of Gerard Depardu juggling on the beach at Frejus tha sit through Titanic.
That being said, there are great low(er) budget films from every country. They seem to win awards, like Hurt Locker, Precious, Slumdog Millionaire. Look at Reservoir Dogs, a great movie shot and edited for $1M. Or The Wrestler, shot by Darin Aronovsky on 16mm, real cheap.
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Some of the LED fresnels from LitePanels have high output:
http://www.litepanels.com/lp/products/sola_led_fresnel.html (http://www.litepanels.com/lp/products/sola_led_fresnel.html)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ae46WGvSB20...player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ae46WGvSB20&feature=player_embedded)
Another video showing panel controlling intensity & spread of LED fresnels :
http://blog.abelcine.com/2010/04/14/litepa...led-fresnels-2/ (http://blog.abelcine.com/2010/04/14/litepanels-introduces-led-fresnels-2/)