Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: narikin on February 14, 2010, 02:37:14 pm
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can any users of the Phase /Schneider LS lenses give some feedback?
are they optically any better at wider apertures - like f4.0 ?
anyone used the 110mm - although I dont think its officially released yet.
Capture Integration were promising some comparative tests, but nothing has appeared.
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can any users of the Phase /Schneider LS lenses give some feedback?
are they optically any better at wider apertures - like f4.0 ?
anyone used the 110mm - although I dont think its officially released yet.
Capture Integration were promising some comparative tests, but nothing has appeared.
Indeed. I found it excruciatingly hard to compare wide open performance for real-world items (e.g. not a test chart) because at f/2.8 the critical DOF is just so freaking small and the only thing that's going to vary in a meaningful way is the corners since the center performance of the 80mm D f/2.8 is very sharp (80mm D corner performance is excellent all-things-considered, but falls off enough that in theory it could be improved).
I personally ran a test over Christmas weekend and despite very careful technique, over-sized tripod, tethered capture to a 30" monitor I could not produce (in my two hour slot I had that night) two shots which matched focused on all four corners and center between the two lenses. Literally a mm of subject movement, a difference in focus distance of a mm, a fraction of a degree of rotation, meant enough of a difference to make direct comparison irrelevant.
Also there was a difference in the renderings of both in and out of focus elements such that even equally sharp parts of the image looked slightly different.
If you're interested we would gladly rent you a Schneider 80mm D LS and if you decide to purchase we'd credit the rental 100% (within the first week) to the purchase. And of course anyone is welcome to come to our studios in Miami and Atlanta to do their own testing - we'll help you as much or as little as you want.
THE feature of the Schneider lenses is the leaf shutter (1/1600 sec flash sync, different bokeh, slightly less shutter bounce 1/8th and 1/30th). My conclusion from the imperfect data was the 80mm Schneider was indeed moderately sharper, but not in a blow-your-mind kind of way and probably not a reason to upgrade if that was your only goal unless you are the type that simply always wants the very best. Also, by f/5.6 I saw zero difference.
The 55mm LS I expect a much larger difference as the 55mm non D Mamiya lens is not the sharpest lens in the lineup and it seems very likely the Schneider will be a significant improvement. The Schneider 110mm will very probably not be drastically sharper than the Phase One 120mm D Macro lens (since the 120mm D Macro is very very sharp), but adding autofocus (the 120mm D Macro is manual focus only) and a leaf-shutter to a lens at that focal length will be a very very welcome addition to the lens lineup.
Doug Peterson ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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Buy Capture One at 10% off (http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/)
Personal Work (http://www.doug-peterson.com/)
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Is there a trick to getting the LS lens to actually flash sync at 1/1600 with most strobe systems?
Right now with Elinchrom (mine) and White Lightning (studio partner) monoblocks we lose a full stop from 1/400 to 1/800, and 1/1600 is totally black, even with the wired synch chord. Using Pocket Wizards, the performance is very disapointing - they just don't communicate fast enough.
Brent
Indeed. I found it excruciatingly hard to compare wide open performance for real-world items (e.g. not a test chart) because at f/2.8 the critical DOF is just so freaking small and the only thing that's going to vary in a meaningful way is the corners since the center performance of the 80mm D f/2.8 is very sharp (80mm D corner performance is excellent all-things-considered, but falls off enough that in theory it could be improved).
I personally ran a test over Christmas weekend and despite very careful technique, over-sized tripod, tethered capture to a 30" monitor I could not produce (in my two hour slot I had that night) two shots which matched focused on all four corners and center between the two lenses. Literally a mm of subject movement, a difference in focus distance of a mm, a fraction of a degree of rotation, meant enough of a difference to make direct comparison irrelevant.
Also there was a difference in the renderings of both in and out of focus elements such that even equally sharp parts of the image looked slightly different.
If you're interested we would gladly rent you a Schneider 80mm D LS and if you decide to purchase we'd credit the rental 100% (within the first week) to the purchase. And of course anyone is welcome to come to our studios in Miami and Atlanta to do their own testing - we'll help you as much or as little as you want.
THE feature of the Schneider lenses is the leaf shutter (1/1600 sec flash sync, different bokeh, slightly less shutter bounce 1/8th and 1/30th). My conclusion from the imperfect data was the 80mm Schneider was indeed moderately sharper, but not in a blow-your-mind kind of way and probably not a reason to upgrade if that was your only goal unless you are the type that simply always wants the very best. Also, by f/5.6 I saw zero difference.
The 55mm LS I expect a much larger difference as the 55mm non D Mamiya lens is not the sharpest lens in the lineup and it seems very likely the Schneider will be a significant improvement. The Schneider 110mm will very probably not be drastically sharper than the Phase One 120mm D Macro lens (since the 120mm D Macro is very very sharp), but adding autofocus (the 120mm D Macro is manual focus only) and a leaf-shutter to a lens at that focal length will be a very very welcome addition to the lens lineup.
Doug Peterson ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/)
Buy Capture One at 10% off (http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/)
Personal Work (http://www.doug-peterson.com/)
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Right now with Elinchrom (mine) and White Lightning (studio partner) monoblocks we lose a full stop from 1/400 to 1/800, and 1/1600 is totally black, even with the wired synch chord. Using Pocket Wizards, the performance is very disapointing - they just don't communicate fast enough.
Indeed it can be a bit tricky - this is VERY fast sync speed for studio strobes.
1/1600 only works with P65+ and P40+ units which have that feature enabled (any of those backs which have shipped in 2010) or have been updated through their dealer to have that feature (which is partially hardware based) enabled. Most wireless transmitters have a maximum since speed much lower than 1/1600 and some power packs either cannot sync that fast or require an adjustment of their "delay" in order to do so.
1/1600 is a pretty specialty sync speed IMO and is only needed for some very specific scenarios. So if you shoot those scenarios (e.g. shooting sunrise fashion on the beach with the sun in the frame, shooting fast action in the studio wide-open with very bright modeling lights) you'll need to make sure your specific lighting pack/head/trigger-method will support 1/1600 (your Phase One dealer can help you do the legwork). Normal sync speeds such as 1/800 or 1/400 will be more than enough for most shooters - the big thing was to get away from the 1/125 sync speed limit imposed by a focal-plane only medium format body.
At this point the feature is very new and not many of our customers use either of those lighting brands so I can't tell you much about your specific setup. However, your Phase One dealer should be happy to open a support case to find out who has used those brands with 1/1600 sync speeds and what, if anything, needs to be done to make it work.
Doug Peterson ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/)
Buy Capture One at 10% off (http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/)
Personal Work (http://www.doug-peterson.com/)
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Mamiya Japan wrote about the Mamiya sibling of the "PhaseOne Schneider-Kreuznach" lenses:
The Mamiya Sekor AF 80mm F2.8 LS D has been developed for digital photography and is approved of by esteemed optics maker Schneider-Kreuznach.
http://www.mamiya.co.jp/index_eng.html (http://www.mamiya.co.jp/index_eng.html)
i am sure the lenses are good, but no Schneider logo is visible on the Mamiya lens.
it is unclear if Schneider designed them, even if Mamiya USA states just that:
The Sekor 80mm f/2.8 LS D designed by Schneider-Kreuznach and manufactured by Mamiya
http://www.mamiya.com/dm56-and-dm33-lenses...-f2.8-ls-d.html (http://www.mamiya.com/dm56-and-dm33-lenses-sekor-af-80mm-f2.8-ls-d.html)
(http://www.mamiya.co.jp/img/20091008/645df_r.jpg)
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Doug, just a little question, is phasone ever going to produce a new 35mm? The one from mamiya is a shame!
Thanks
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Mamiya Japan wrote about the Mamiya sibling of the "PhaseOne Schneider-Kreuznach" lenses:
i am sure the lenses are good, but no Schneider logo is visible on the Mamiya lens.
it is unclear if Schneider designed them, even if Mamiya USA states just that:
(http://www.mamiya.co.jp/img/20091008/645df_r.jpg)
I believe this is an issue of regional branding. In Japan the Mamiya brand carries the most weight and so is used with prominence.
In the US all of the shipping leaf shutter 80mm lenses I've seen prominently feature the "Schneider" brand and in fact do not show the Phase One or Mamiya logo. (see Phase One DF page (http://phaseone.com/Camera-Systems/645DF/645DF-Info.aspx) and click on 360 degree view).
They have been presented to us (as dealers) as Schneider lenses.
Doug Peterson ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/)
Buy Capture One at 10% off (http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/)
Personal Work (http://www.doug-peterson.com/)
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The new LS lenses are designed by Schneider, but built in Japan.
I believe this is an issue of regional branding. In Japan the Mamiya brand carries the most weight and so is used with prominence.
In the US all of the shipping leaf shutter 80mm lenses I've seen prominently feature the "Schneider" brand and in fact do not show the Phase One or Mamiya logo. (see Phase One DF page (http://phaseone.com/Camera-Systems/645DF/645DF-Info.aspx) and click on 360 degree view).
They have been presented to us (as dealers) as Schneider lenses.
Doug Peterson ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/)
Buy Capture One at 10% off (http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/)
Personal Work (http://www.doug-peterson.com/)
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The new LS lenses are designed by Schneider, but built in Japan.
at least this is what the Mamiya USA and PhaseOne marketing departments communicate.
it might be simple branding.
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at least this is what the Mamiya USA and PhaseOne marketing departments communicate.
it might be simple branding.
It's what I was told directly, in person, by Dr. Claus Mølgaard (the head engineer of Phase one).
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It's what I was told directly, in person, by Dr. Claus Mølgaard (the head engineer of Phase one).
I don't believe Schneider would put their name on a lens for branding purposes only without having a serious stake in the quality of the lens, whether it is from a design standpoint, raw materials, production, or what have you.
Steve Hendrix
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I don't believe Schneider would put their name on a lens for branding purposes only without having a serious stake in the quality of the lens, whether it is from a design standpoint, raw materials, production, or what have you.
Steve Hendrix
Yes, that's what I'm saying. And in practice, the 80mm LS is very, very sharp.
To expand, Dr. Claus said that Phase One was using their acquisition of fabricaiton facilities in Japan to maxise efficiency, and that for the task of assembling lenses, the Japanese were very skilled, however the relationship with Schneider was entered into to leverage the vast skill and experience of lens design, because in optical design, a few German companies (among them Schneider) are at the forefront. This is part of PO's global strategy to become *the* leader in MF design.
Dr. Claus is an engineer, and a photographer. And he seems damn fine at both. He's not a marketing guy, and I have every reason to believe his statements on this. Heck, the discussions I had with him were probably the primary reason that sold me on finally buying into Phase One.
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I don't believe Schneider would put their name on a lens for branding purposes only without having a serious stake in the quality of the lens, whether it is from a design standpoint, raw materials, production, or what have you.
Steve Hendrix
http://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/870985-post52.html (http://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/870985-post52.html)
Here's how Samsung gets Schneider Kreuznach to make lenses for 'em:
SAMSUNG: "We're making a play, like every other man and his giant-electronics-corporation dog, for the digital camera market. Unfortunately, we have zero credibility in the camera industry, and, well, that's where you come in..."
SCHNEIDER KREUZNACH: "NEIN! Ve are a respected European opticz company, with many years of fine tradition und expertise in the field..."
Samsung drops, with a surprisingly loud thud, a briefcase on the conference table. It pops open, revealing row upon row of shiny Euro notes, neatly bundled in 10000-Euro lots
SK: "...and as such vill not be villing to zell our name for use on some cheap, mass-produced cameras! Our lens are a ground by magic elves, und coated vith ze finest, purest dragon's urine..."
Samsung reaches into its pocket, and pulls out a handful of diamonds, water clear, each the size of a human testicle, and tumbles them onto the briefcase
SK: "Our lenses are hand-assembled by virgins! The lens barrels are polished on zeir thighs!"
Samsung whistles, and a team of sunglass-wearing security guards with earpieces screwed into their ears, wielding submachine guns, enter the room. They briefly check the corners, the faces of those at the conference table, then nod and mutter into their lapels. Seconds later, a powered trolley laden with gold bullion enters the room, and is placed at the head of the table.
SK: "EACH LENS IS HAND-TESTED BY ZE POPE!"
Samsung pulls a share certificate from his pocket. Laying it next to the briefcase, it reads: "COCA-COLA: 250,000 Shares".
SK: "I look forward to working vith you, Samsung. Here's the TIFF file of our logo. Stick it vhere you vant. Guten tag!"
Apologies to the Germans on the board...
[/color]
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http://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/870985-post52.html (http://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/870985-post52.html)
Which isn't to say that respected lens manufacturer's won't provide lenses for all kinds of cameras. I've seen plenty of little crappy point and shoots with Zeiss splashed across the lens barrel. Hard to say how good a lens it was. But the pricing is probably appropriate to most all situations, whether it's a $115 Kodak digicam or a $3,400 LS Lens for a Phase One DF camera.
Steve Hendrix
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if these schneider lenses are anything like the ones for the rollei, they are worth every penny....that range of glass for the 6000 series is just beautiful and really has no competition...
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if these schneider lenses are anything like the ones for the rollei, they are worth every penny....that range of glass for the 6000 series is just beautiful and really has no competition...
I just wish they'd hurry up and get that 110 out the door, and then get on with a 210 or 300 or other very long lens.
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if these schneider lenses are anything like the ones for the rollei, they are worth every penny....that range of glass for the 6000 series is just beautiful and really has no competition...
+1
but even if the ones mamiya is making with schneider's consultance aren't the same, I'm sure the leaf shutter will be welcome.
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I personally think the 55mm and the 110mm will be worth looking at. The Mamiya Sekor 80mm D lens is already very good so it may not be worth spending $$$ on Schneider's version. My first priority goes to the 110mm and I'll wait for them to have a 30mm version downstream.
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I'm certainly looking forward to testing them out for sure . The 110mm has my eye and so does the 55mm. I agree with Henry not so sure for myself the 80mm D is worth replacing for just the leaf shutter alone since the 80D at least copies I have tested and own are really damn good. I used my 80D in almost every tests comparisons i have done like the S2 and it lacked for nothing. But for outdoor fill and flash the 110mm and 55mm seem just about perfect focal length for a lot of different subjects.
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I'm certainly looking forward to testing them out for sure . The 110mm has my eye and so does the 55mm. I agree with Henry not so sure for myself the 80mm D is worth replacing for just the leaf shutter alone since the 80D at least copies I have tested and own are really damn good. I used my 80D in almost every tests comparisons i have done like the S2 and it lacked for nothing. But for outdoor fill and flash the 110mm and 55mm seem just about perfect focal length for a lot of different subjects.
Anyone have any updated information about release dates on the 110 and 55? In November they were hoping for 'early in the new year', but then in early January I hear 'March, maybe later'...
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I am just planning my next lens for P40 kit. I was hoping to only buy the new LS lenses, but right now i need a lens around 120mm macro style. Was thinking about the 110mm LS, but noticed the min focus distance is not that close.
Any idea if there are plans to produce a macro LS lens? otherwise i think i'm heading for the old 120 macro....
Cheers
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I am just planning my next lens for P40 kit. I was hoping to only buy the new LS lenses, but right now i need a lens around 120mm macro style. Was thinking about the 110mm LS, but noticed the min focus distance is not that close.
Any idea if there are plans to produce a macro LS lens? otherwise i think i'm heading for the old 120 macro....
Would macro extension tubes + Schneider 110mm work for you?
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I actually have an old, 35mm film Samsumg point and shoot with Schneider-Kreuznach engraved on the lens barrel. I must say, its better than the average point and shoot...and the color of the images have the specific German look/feel.
Which isn't to say that respected lens manufacturer's won't provide lenses for all kinds of cameras. I've seen plenty of little crappy point and shoots with Zeiss splashed across the lens barrel. Hard to say how good a lens it was. But the pricing is probably appropriate to most all situations, whether it's a $115 Kodak digicam or a $3,400 LS Lens for a Phase One DF camera.
Steve Hendrix
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[quote name='narikin' date='Feb 14 2010, 02:37 PM' post='347014']
can any users of the Phase /Schneider LS lenses give some feedback?
are they optically any better at wider apertures - like f4.0 ?
anyone used the 110mm - although I dont think its officially released yet.
Capture Integration were promising some comparative tests, but nothing has appeared.
/quote]
I've been using the 80 mm LS for two months now and I can attest to its sharpness - very good at full aperture and outstanding at f4. Although I tend to leave the 75-150 D zoom on the camera, I find myself using the 80 mm more and more. (Partly because it is so light!)
Bill
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Indeed. I found it excruciatingly hard to compare wide open performance for real-world items (e.g. not a test chart) because at f/2.8 the critical DOF is just so freaking small and the only thing that's going to vary in a meaningful way is the corners since the center performance of the 80mm D f/2.8 is very sharp (80mm D corner performance is excellent all-things-considered, but falls off enough that in theory it could be improved).
I personally ran a test over Christmas weekend and despite very careful technique, over-sized tripod, tethered capture to a 30" monitor I could not produce (in my two hour slot I had that night) two shots which matched focused on all four corners and center between the two lenses. Literally a mm of subject movement, a difference in focus distance of a mm, a fraction of a degree of rotation, meant enough of a difference to make direct comparison irrelevant.
Also there was a difference in the renderings of both in and out of focus elements such that even equally sharp parts of the image looked slightly different.
...
Probably more important than sharpness is the character of the lens anyhow - how does it render color and macro contrast. Does it draw doublets around high contrast lines in the OOF regions (like a lot of zeiss and leica glass), or does it draw wavy web like patterns (like mamiya), or does it draw smooth butter like the Rollei schneider lenses? How about specular flare control - are you going to see a sprinkling of pentagonal aperture images across the image when shooting into the light or where the light comes through small holes or reflects off of drops of water on your model? Is there a color bias? Are tones smooth across an larger area? What about distortion? That's the first clue to someone that they are looking at a photo instead of out a window. I'd take a distortion free lens over a sharp lens any day. Lot's can be done to fix color and distortion in post, but its a PIA and complex distortion where the inside of the field has barrel that transitions to pin on the edges is hard to correct well.
Doug, can you tell us how Phase handles the distortion C1 pro? It looks like its just a simple correction...
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We do want to perform comparative tests. And yes, we do want to compare more than sharpness, indeed the character of lenses, how they draw, how they react to different subject conditions, etc. But yes, they do take time, and we have a full boatload of projects and endeavors. But it is on the radar and as soon as we can get some tests done, we'll post them.
Steve Hendrix
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Would macro extension tubes + Schneider 110mm work for you?
tubes could work....
is there a chart available anywhere that has modified focusing distances when using tubes with various lens?
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I have a 80mm LS being shipped to me for our workshop tomorrow and i will run some tests on this against the 80mm D this coming week . Capture Integration folks are sending it in for us to use along with the Cambo RS and a couple T/S lenses
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Would macro extension tubes + Schneider 110mm work for you?
Doug, would the DOF be seriously compromised using this combo compared to a 110mm or 120mm macro lens? Just wondering out loud.