Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: CBarrett on January 16, 2010, 10:14:16 pm
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Had the RM3D out with me all day today and am most impressed. Really a wonderful little camera, very precise and focusing was a breeze. Attached is the first shot I took with it as well as a couple candids of the Arca itself.
-CB
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hey chris,
so, after your first day, would you say that you feel any "different" working with this camera versus working with a bellows-type rig like your M2? Does it make you look, or feel, any different about how you see the photograph form itself in the camera compared with your current M2 rig?
I just wish I had the budget to allow myself to be able to afford such lavish equipment . a little farther down the road though. I'll get there soon
-Dan
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so, after your first day, would you say that you feel any "different" working with this camera versus working with a bellows-type rig like your M2? Does it make you look, or feel, any different about how you see the photograph form itself in the camera compared with your current M2 rig?
Having test both as well, while i'm a fan of LF camera, i must confess that the RM3D gives you more freedom in my movements, and you don't have to spend time for focusing... it doesn't attract your attention.
The second point, is that sometimes you can also use it handheld.
The viewer is quite nice.
It takes 5 time less to make a picture than with a monorail.
On the other hand, every lens cost 1000 euros more than a regular one.
If you are working with about 4 or 5 lenses, the complete kit cost nearly the double.
I've first tried the M2, and was seduce compare to my F line, but when i've tried the RM3D i thought after 5 images that this type of camera was the way to go for architecture.
I hope, i will be able to buy one of these type of camera this year.
But in a studio, i prefer the M2.
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what is the widest lens you can use with it ?
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Please, please, please, test focusing accuracy with something like a Leica D5, cheap laser distance finder or, worst case, measuring tape. Transfer the measured distance to the helical mount and don't use the ground glass for focus.
Ideally do it with a number of lenses at different distances/apertures.
This will test what distinguishes this camera from every other on the market.
If it works as advertised, all the Cambos, Sylvestris, Sinars and even the beautiful Alpas are left for dust.
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Please, please, please, test focusing accuracy with something like a Leica D5, cheap laser distance finder or, worst case, measuring tape. Transfer the measured distance to the helical mount and don't use the ground glass for focus.
Ideally do it with a number of lenses at different distances/apertures.
This will test what distinguishes this camera from every other on the market.
If it works as advertised, all the Cambos, Sylvestris, Sinars and even the beautiful Alpas are left for dust.
I haven't even bothered figuring out how to use the distance scale since I always compose and focus on the ground glass. I'll give it a whirl, though if I can figure it out : )
The focusing mechanism IS very precise. On the view camera, a 1 millimeter focus adjustment has pronounced effect, where a ten degree rotation on the RM3D's focus ring is rather subtle. Overall I do find the camera more convenient and more rigid. I like the M2 for furniture and tabletop in studio, as well as long lens details of architecture.
For interiors, the view camera doesn't slow me down any more than the DSLR or RM3D. For running around outside grabbing quick, wide angle shots, I'd definitely reach for the RM3D.
Here's the kit I'm planning on outfitting over the next month or so.
Case 1: Arca M2 with 6 lenses and sliding back
Case 2: Nikon D3 with 3 lenses and M Line Adapter Kit, RM3D, Digi Back (batteries and charger)
What's really cool is that the RM3D lenses are mounted on flat recessed plates that are then mounted in tubes. You can get an Arca 110mm lens board to R Bayonet adapter and have all your lenses mountable on either camera. This possibility is, I believe, unique to Arca Swiss and really damn cool.
When the Schneider 28mm Super Digitar is finally released, I'll have the ability to shoot it on the RM3D, or pull it off that and mount it on the M Line 2, then even remove the rear standard, mount the Nikon on the M2 and shoot it that way... 3 fully integrated cameras... Nice!
I think I may very well be dumping my 645 DF and lenses.
-CB
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I haven't even bothered figuring out how to use the distance scale since I always compose and focus on the ground glass. I'll give it a whirl, though if I can figure it out : )
It's just a spreadsheet printed on the tube for the finder --- turn to find your lens, go across to find your distance, then transfer that number to the focus helical.
What's really cool is that the RM3D lenses are mounted on flat recessed plates that are then mounted in tubes. You can get an Arca 110mm lens board to R Bayonet adapter and have all your lenses mountable on either camera. This possibility is, I believe, unique to Arca Swiss and really damn cool.
When the Schneider 28mm Super Digitar is finally released, I'll have the ability to shoot it on the RM3D, or pull it off that and mount it on the M Line 2, then even remove the rear standard, mount the Nikon on the M2 and shoot it that way... 3 fully integrated cameras... Nice!
I think I may very well be dumping my 645 DF and lenses.
-CB
Note too that all the RM3D lenses come mounted with a dual tube -- you remove the tube for use with the Rotaslide, or keep it on for direct GG viewing. As such, you can mount the 23 on the RM3D, just not in conjunction with the Rotaslide, has to be direct view...
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I recently went to visit Arca and spent an afternoon there. Martin demonstrated how poor was my focus accuracy for digital with a ground glass (I've spent 22 years doing it and consider myself pretty good—with 4" x 5" or 8" x 10" film, even under difficult light conditions and using movements I expect to get every shot 100% sharp). The trouble is, no ground glass itself can resolve at the level required for a digital back. Of course one can often get by using depth of field but really critical accuracy cannot be achieved. That's why the RM3D and RL3D are potentially highly significant.
However, for focusing on the ground glass by eye the RM3D actually makes things worse than an M-Line because the eye tires rapidly and gets worse at hitting sharp focus over the many turns of the helical mount compared with the comparative crudeness of the monorail. That's why I urge you to test with a digital distance finder and the distance scales. The RM3D is an exquisite instrument designed to solve the fundamental outstanding problem with view/pancake cameras and digital backs. I'd really like to know if it actually succeeds.
I haven't even bothered figuring out how to use the distance scale since I always compose and focus on the ground glass. I'll give it a whirl, though if I can figure it out : )
The focusing mechanism IS very precise. On the view camera, a 1 millimeter focus adjustment has pronounced effect, where a ten degree rotation on the RM3D's focus ring is rather subtle. Overall I do find the camera more convenient and more rigid. I like the M2 for furniture and tabletop in studio, as well as long lens details of architecture.
For interiors, the view camera doesn't slow me down any more than the DSLR or RM3D. For running around outside grabbing quick, wide angle shots, I'd definitely reach for the RM3D.
Here's the kit I'm planning on outfitting over the next month or so.
Case 1: Arca M2 with 6 lenses and sliding back
Case 2: Nikon D3 with 3 lenses and M Line Adapter Kit, RM3D, Digi Back (batteries and charger)
What's really cool is that the RM3D lenses are mounted on flat recessed plates that are then mounted in tubes. You can get an Arca 110mm lens board to R Bayonet adapter and have all your lenses mountable on either camera. This possibility is, I believe, unique to Arca Swiss and really damn cool.
When the Schneider 28mm Super Digitar is finally released, I'll have the ability to shoot it on the RM3D, or pull it off that and mount it on the M Line 2, then even remove the rear standard, mount the Nikon on the M2 and shoot it that way... 3 fully integrated cameras... Nice!
I think I may very well be dumping my 645 DF and lenses.
-CB
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Case 1: Arca M2 with 6 lenses and sliding back
Case 2: Nikon D3 with 3 lenses and M Line Adapter Kit, RM3D, Digi Back (batteries and charger)
hi chris
what is, and where can I find an M line adapter kit?
thanks
m
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hi chris
what is, and where can I find an M line adapter kit?
thanks
m
Marc,
You can order the M Line 2 as a DSLR kit or a digi back kit...(or both) It's basically just a plate to mount the body on the rear standard bearer and a bellows with a bayonet mount on one end... available through Arca dealers.
I'd prolly go for a RRS L Mount plate though, in order to allow mounting the camera vertically.
-CB
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Chris, were you using the E module? or some other system?
Thanks.
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Chris, were you using the E module? or some other system?
Thanks.
Actually, just the groundglass and an 8x Rodenstock Loupe. Dead on every time. I can't imagine having much use for the VarioFinder and E Module, unless I decide to use the R to shoot street work... but for my commercial work I'll always use the groundglass.
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Actually, just the groundglass and an 8x Rodenstock Loupe. Dead on every time.
May I know where to purchase Rodenstock 8x, please?
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May I know where to purchase Rodenstock 8x, please?
Sorry, it's actually a Canon 8x which I believe is no longer available... but I also like this... (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/214581-REG/Schneider_08_034561_10x_Magnifier.html)
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Chris --
A couple of questions, while you're working with the Rm3d:
1 - Is the tilt mechanism restricted to the vertical plane or can it be rotated to other orientations?
2 - Does the standard back rotate (as I gather that it does on the Rotaslide) or must the back be removed and remounted?
Thanks,
Dave.
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congrats to ur new arca chris.
looks as it will see great photograhs ... so ur cam has good luck too that u found it.
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1 - Is the tilt mechanism restricted to the vertical plane or can it be rotated to other orientations?
yes, so you have to turn the camera...
but with the bigger RL3D, you can turn the front 90°
see pics (http://www.galerie-photo.com/arca-swiss-rm3d.html)
2 - Does the standard back rotate (as I gather that it does on the Rotaslide) or must the back be removed and remounted?
no it doesn't, you can turn the adapter
the viewer can also be attach in 90° position too !
For focussing, i went with the Big Rodenstock 6x... nice thing with it, he's that you can use it with glasses on !
Rodenstock 6x (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/162505-REG/Rodenstock_260300_6x_Aspheric_Loupe_.html)
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Here's a few more Rm3d examples of a slightly different architectural subject -- and echoing a previous post, I use a leica disto laser rangefinder to accurately measure distance then use a table to translate this into a value for the helical (works well in poorly-lit cathedrals!)
[attachment=19559:Wells_Ch...er_House.jpg] [attachment=19556:Norwich_East_End.jpg]
[attachment=19558:Salisbur...Crossing.jpg] [attachment=19555:Ely_North_Transept.jpg]
[attachment=19557:Peterbor...el_Vault.jpg]
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Chris,
Does the RM3D have swing as well as tilt? I am assuming that the tilt is geared?
And you can interchange lenses between the M 2 and the RM3D without bringing a copal wrench, awesome. I think that it's sealed, Arca Swiss seems like the company for me.
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Here's a few more Rm3d examples of a slightly different architectural subject -- and echoing a previous post, I use a leica disto laser rangefinder to accurately measure distance then use a table to translate this into a value for the helical (works well in poorly-lit cathedrals!)
John,
1stly, beautiful shots there, I really like the ones of the ceilings!
just out of curiosity though, where did you pick up your Disto? also, you don't happen to be using one of the dedicated b/w P1 45+ backs, do you?
i remember reading about a special run that P1 did on those, expensive little buggers?! something reminds me that P1 also was thinking about a dedicated P65+ run too, not sure if that was going to happen, think they needed like 100 or so pre-paid orders for them...
oh well, 4x5 TMAX still for me
-Dan
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Here's a few more Rm3d examples of a slightly different architectural subject -- and echoing a previous post, I use a leica disto laser rangefinder to accurately measure distance then use a table to translate this into a value for the helical (works well in poorly-lit cathedrals!)
[attachment=19559:Wells_Ch...er_House.jpg] [attachment=19556:Norwich_East_End.jpg]
[attachment=19558:Salisbur...Crossing.jpg] [attachment=19555:Ely_North_Transept.jpg]
[attachment=19557:Peterbor...el_Vault.jpg]
Very interesting. Have you found this technique 100% reliable? How well does it work with tilt?
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I'm sadly packing up the Rm3d to return to Arca and preparing to head back out of town for another shoot. I wish I was taking the R with me! I didn't have a chance to do a critical test of range focusing but did do a few captures after Martin explained the approach to me.
It's actually quite simple: The helical focus mechanism is engraved with numbers from 0 to 34 around it's perimeter. Once you mount a calibrated lens, setting the focus at 0 will give you infinity focus. You can use the provided tables and range measurements (via tape measure or distance finder) to know which number to set for a given distance. As I understand the E Module, it alerts you when you achieve focus without the need for tables. The lenses come with a step ring that is removed for focusing with a Rotaslide back. If you plan on using a third party slider, you can still remove the step ring to allow focusing but will have to devise your own focus table.
Here's what I like about that idea, with variances in the manufacture of digital backs, mounting adapters and focusing screens you can throw critical alignment out the window. I've been researching having my groundglass carrier machined to critical focus in alignment with my digital back adapter (including trying various focusing screens) and with the range system you can create a lookup table for your particular odds and ends that no longer relies on the accuracy of your eyes or alignment of various adapters. Simply shoot scenes of several distances while tethered, note the numbers on the ring where you achieve focus for the given distance and you have your own table that will provide you with accurate focus time after time. Done. Why, I might even consider shooting untethered.... ME!
I've been arguing with the plate camera shooters thread after thread after thread and now I'm forced to admit... you guys might be on to something...
LoL.
Cheers from Chilly Chicago,
CB
Oh to answer the swing question... there is only tilt (geared). If you needed swing instead, you could rotate the body 90 deg, though I don't believe there is a 90 deg mount (so via tripod head then).
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Chris:
Here's my rubber-meets-the-road question: You can only choose either the M2 or the RM3D, both with Rotaslide, and your typical venue is shooting in the field, not tabletop. You do not usually shoot hand-held, though admittedly compelling with super wide. Your 4 lens spread would be the 23, 40HRW, 70HRW, and 135. Money is not a consideration other than you can't keep both . Which body do you keep and why?
I am leaning to the M2 for the added mounting flexibility (you can adapt and focus almost anything on it), movements at both ends, and the ability to combine swing and tilt. Obviously all this at the expense of compactness, simplicity in use and rigidity -- which is why I am conflicted
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Chris:
Here's my rubber-meets-the-road question: You can only choose either the M2 or the RM3D, both with Rotaslide, and your typical venue is shooting in the field, not tabletop. You do not usually shoot hand-held, though admittedly compelling with super wide. Your 4 lens spread would be the 23, 40HRW, 70HRW, and 135. Money is not a consideration other than you can't keep both . Which body do you keep and why?
I am leaning to the M2 for the added mounting flexibility (you can adapt and focus almost anything on it), movements at both ends, and the ability to combine swing and tilt. Obviously all this at the expense of compactness, simplicity in use and rigidity -- which is why I am conflicted
At first I was like, Man.... how am I going to answer that? Simple. I have a conditional answer : )
If Interiors > Exteriors Then M2
Else Rm3d
End
-Kobayashi Maru
by the way... I'm impressed enough with the R that I'm selling my 645 DF (as little as I've used it, makes more sense to carry the R as a 2nd camera)
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-Kobayashi Maru
Exactly the problem...
In my case, I shoot mostly landscape with an occasional product and architecture gig. So I could make an easy excuse for both/either. But leaning toward the M2 for it's ability to T&S at the same time, which I did use regularly when I shot landscape with a view cam. But then there's the size and sex factor for the RM3D
Also in my case, I am SOOO impressed with the AF speed and accuracy on the new DF body, coupled with the short shutter lag when combined with the P65+, coupled with the fact I can BIN and get spotless 15MP of ISO 1600 and usable 15MP of ISO 3200, that I just yesterday listed all of my Canon gear for sale. So at least for me, the DF is staying and more lenses are being added to the system -- and the tech camera will be the second body.
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Chris:
Here's my rubber-meets-the-road question: You can only choose either the M2 or the RM3D, both with Rotaslide, and your typical venue is shooting in the field, not tabletop. You do not usually shoot hand-held, though admittedly compelling with super wide. Your 4 lens spread would be the 23, 40HRW, 70HRW, and 135. Money is not a consideration other than you can't keep both . Which body do you keep and why?
My two cents...
RM3D !
Better for accurate focusing
Better for Helicon stuff
More rigid in windy condition
Can be used handheld
300% quicker in the field
less bulky
Still the M2 is really nice, and considering that you don't need to calibrate lenses with it, it's much more affordable... but you say "Money is not a consideration"...
if in rare case you miss Bellows camera, you can ad an F line in second hand for cheap.
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Chris,
Where are you finding the Arca RM3D for sale in the States?
Aaron Britton
http://asbrittonphoto.com/ (http://asbrittonphoto.com/)
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My two cents...
RM3D !
Better for accurate focusing
Better for Helicon stuff
More rigid in windy condition
Can be used handheld
300% quicker in the field
less bulky
Still the M2 is really nice, and considering that you don't need to calibrate lenses with it, it's much more affordable... but you say "Money is not a consideration"...
if in rare case you miss Bellows camera, you can ad an F line in second hand for cheap.
But the F-line's and older M-lines do not have as fine of gearing as the new M-2, so at least in theory, the M-2 should be more precise for digital?
As Chris said, it's a "Kobayashi Maru" conundrum -- both systems have their own sets of benefits and pitfalls, and it's on each of us to figure out which set we can live better with. Chris OTOH chose to cover all his tech bases, but gave up the DF kit to fund it. Only safe answer is to buy all three, but I definitely cannot afford it, so looking for a single tech solution to compliment my DF. And it is a tradeoff for the RM's size, convenience and rigidity against the M-2's enhanced movements and overall flexibility. In the end, my two most used focals would be the 40HR and 70HR, and I could probably live without having both swing and tilt 80% of the time, so you are probably correct that the RM3D should get the nod. But then....
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Can you shoot film with the M2? And what is a ball park in terms of price?
Thanks!
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Can you shoot film with the M2? And what is a ball park in terms of price?
Thanks!
Probably up to 6x9, as I am pretty sure it has the standard Arca 110 rear standard. THe basic camera with digital back adapter plates are essentially the same price, and the rotaslide is identical for both. The big difference is lenses -- actually lens mounts. The M-line uses basic Arca boards at $200 each, while the R dual-tube mounts look to add about $1000 to $1500 per lens.
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Probably up to 6x9, as I am pretty sure it has the standard Arca 110 rear standard. THe basic camera with digital back adapter plates are essentially the same price, and the rotaslide is identical for both. The big difference is lenses -- actually lens mounts. The M-line uses basic Arca boards at $200 each, while the R dual-tube mounts look to add about $1000 to $1500 per lens.
Thanks Jack.
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Is this actually the case? Can anyone confirm that the M-2 has finer gearing than the older F or M cameras?
The M2 seems more precised in all aspects, except that it shares the same type of rail with all the F line and M line models...
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That's why I'm wondering. Since it uses the same rail, the gearing must match and therefore the focus throw should be the same.
If my memory serves me right, Martin from Arca told me it was the same.
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If my memory serves me right, Martin from Arca told me it was the same.
I stand corrected -- I was told they were "finer" by somebody who demoed one and took their word for it. What about the gearing on the standards for tilt, swing, rise, fall, shift and Orbix???
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John,
1stly, beautiful shots there, I really like the ones of the ceilings!
just out of curiosity though, where did you pick up your Disto? also, you don't happen to be using one of the dedicated b/w P1 45+ backs, do you?
i remember reading about a special run that P1 did on those, expensive little buggers?! something reminds me that P1 also was thinking about a dedicated P65+ run too, not sure if that was going to happen, think they needed like 100 or so pre-paid orders for them...
oh well, 4x5 TMAX still for me
-Dan
Dan: Thanks, glad you like them. I got the disto on ebay -- and I'm just using a standard p45+ John.
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Very interesting. Have you found this technique 100% reliable? How well does it work with tilt?
It works very well for me -- I have a detailed table (from Arca) to convert distance to helical number. I've not used tilt a lot (yet!) but thinking about plane of focus and where I want the focal point to be seems to be working for me. John.
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Chris,
Where are you finding the Arca RM3D for sale in the States?
Aaron Britton
http://asbrittonphoto.com/ (http://asbrittonphoto.com/)
Aaron: I got mine through Rod Klukas at Photomark in Phoenix -- he's very knowledgeable and helpful. I think I saw a post somewhere that Capture Integration (Atlanta & Miami) were planning to carry them. JOhn.
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Aaron: I got mine through Rod Klukas at Photomark in Phoenix -- he's very knowledgeable and helpful. I think I saw a post somewhere that Capture Integration (Atlanta & Miami) were planning to carry them. JOhn.
We do indeed. Or already do, as it were. Sold an Arca Swiss M2 MF to a customer at the start of the year and it was in stock! (to our very pleasant extreme surprise).
Steve Hendrix
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We do indeed. Or already do, as it were. Sold an Arca Swiss M2 MF to a customer at the start of the year and it was in stock! (to our very pleasant extreme surprise).
Steve Hendrix
It surprises me that you have to be very pleasant extrelemy surprised about a manufacturer who claims to build professional cameras that they have something in stock? Other brands in this segment don't have to mention this specifically, they just deliver in time.
Just a thought.
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It surprises me that you have to be very pleasant extrelemy surprised about a manufacturer who claims to build professional cameras that they have something in stock? Other brands in this segment don't have to mention this specifically, they just deliver in time.
Just a thought.
Those of us who over the years have tried to get Arca products in a timely fashion aren't surprised. Some have been in stock, some have been easily obtainable, others decidedly not. I kept doubles of all 4x5 and 8x10 f-line pieces as there was no way I was going to play russian roulette if something went down. And then I still kept a tk45s in the closet ... They make wonderful products, and it's nice to see another US dealer roll the dice and make a go of selling them. Rod always did a good job, but even he couldn't get what didn't exist.
As for other manufacturers actually "deliver[ing] in time", well there are many here who will take issue with that as well. Phase lenses; HB 60 back, live view ... Pentax MF camera
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Those of us who over the years have tried to get Arca products in a timely fashion aren't surprised. Some have been in stock, some have been easily obtainable, others decidedly not. I kept doubles of all 4x5 and 8x10 f-line pieces as there was no way I was going to play russian roulette if something went down. And then I still kept a tk45s in the closet ... They make wonderful products, and it's nice to see another US dealer roll the dice and make a go of selling them. Rod always did a good job, but even he couldn't get what didn't exist.
As for other manufacturers actually "deliver[ing] in time", well there are many here who will take issue with that as well. Phase lenses; HB 60 back, live view ... Pentax MF camera
I was talking about tech camera manufacturers like Alpa or Cambo. Please don't remind me about the H3D-50 liveview issue....
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I was talking about tech camera manufacturers like Alpa or Cambo. Please don't remind me about the H3D-50 liveview issue....
That's the reason I switched to Alpa when I went to digital, and not Sinar or Arca - local dealer had all in stock, system was mature and the manufacturer was responsive and responsible.
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I stand corrected -- I was told they were "finer" by somebody who demoed one and took their word for it. What about the gearing on the standards for tilt, swing, rise, fall, shift and Orbix???
I'm pondering over both options too. Getting an RM3d for a few days in a couple of weeks to test again.
As far as the m-line two is concerned, the geared mechanisms definitely have a much more solid accuracy to them compared to the f-line. The lock at zero is also more pronounced and overall it feels much more rigid to do large rise and fall movements. You will still have the same focusing concerns with it compared to the f-line though, in terms of reaching the point of focus. I think the main benefits are the much lighter weight and also more accurate focus (once you've got it) across the sensor/film with movements.