Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: JoeKitchen on January 14, 2010, 09:09:27 pm
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It seems that the amount of literature on accessories to MFDB and equipment is limited and one thing that I have not been able to find much on are the sliding back adapters. If you use one, what model do you use and what are the benefits of that system? Looking for info on size, weight, stability, and flexibility when it comes to different mounts.
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I use an ARTEC with built-in slideback. For it is part of the camera it is light and solid. I would never work without a sliding back. I also tried the Linhof sliding back which is a bit bulky, but the Linhof guys promised to make a smaller version for the Techno.
Michael
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it depends on the camera and the use... some are just sliding back, others are also stitching back !
you should check the Kapture group website first.
otherwise for arca swiss including the RM3D, you have the Rotaslide made by arca.
it's a sliding back with stitching possibilities, and you can rotate your back also.
Note, that the rotaslide is the only one compatible with the RM3D.
then you have the silvestri, Cambo, Linhof...
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It seems that the amount of literature on accessories to MFDB and equipment is limited and one thing that I have not been able to find much on are the sliding back adapters. If you use one, what model do you use and what are the benefits of that system? Looking for info on size, weight, stability, and flexibility when it comes to different mounts.
What you need depends on:
do you intend to focus with Ground Glass or live view? .. or have to option to do both?
Do you want to just slide for focus, or do you want to shift and stitch?
what image size and shape do you want?
what camera and back will you be using?
I have a Silvestri for Sinar P3/Hasselblad 50 for 2 image stitch and GG focusing... it is awful because:
The sliding back does not hold the digiback securely
the GG is out of reference to the sensor, so you cannot focus
the viewer gets in the way of the firewire cable
I am thinking about getting the kapture group triple stitch back for the Hasselblad 60, for live view, on the P3 6 * 9 mm format, this this would give 15.2mm overlap on the 40.2mm dimension of the sensor, and a 90 * 53.7mm image that wold be well accommodated by most apo-digitars, and would give a high-quality file of about 134Mpx, which should look good printed 24 * 41" @ 360 original camera pixels per print inch on my Epson 7900?
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Personally I would be looking for a sliding back to use on a bellows camera; I am leaning towards the M Line 2. I prefer looking through the ground glass to compose and focus so live view is not something that interest me. Insofar as stitching, would I not be able to determine what areas of the image circle that I would want to stitch, record where the standard is for each of those locations and move the standard when shooting. This may be a slower way of working, but hey I would be using a view camera anyway, a slow camera. Something else that concerns me is get a sliding back that which holds that sensor in the same position as the ground glass and is very stable, as a matter a fact this is the most important thing I think.
Will have to look at what you have suggested so far.
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Check the Kapturegroup site and you will get a good idea of what is available:http://www.kapturegroup.com/solution/three.html
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I use a Kapturegroup Stitching sliding back and would not want anything else again. It is so much nicer than all the other options I have used. My back is held tight to the adapter. I can easily change between vertical and horizontal though I prefer vertical because horizontal I can make while stitching. The view on the groundglass is practically dead-on. The sliding is also very smooth.
Yes, I can certainly recommend the Kapturegroup solution.
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I use a Kapturegroup Stitching sliding back and would not want anything else again. It is so much nicer than all the other options I have used. My back is held tight to the adapter. I can easily change between vertical and horizontal though I prefer vertical because horizontal I can make while stitching. The view on the groundglass is practically dead-on. The sliding is also very smooth.
Yes, I can certainly recommend the Kapturegroup solution.
+1
(http://christopherbarrett.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/ArcaReview_013.jpg)
Actually, I'll be picking up an RM3D today to try out for a few days, not sure if it will come with a Rotaslide, but if it does I'll compare the two. My Kapture Group slider seems to hold he back in the same focal plane as the ground glass... at least as accurately as my eyes can tell... my first captures are typically sharp, frequently requiring very little or no focus adjustment.
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+1
(http://christopherbarrett.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/ArcaReview_013.jpg)
Actually, I'll be picking up an RM3D today to try out for a few days, not sure if it will come with a Rotaslide, but if it does I'll compare the two. My Kapture Group slider seems to hold he back in the same focal plane as the ground glass... at least as accurately as my eyes can tell... my first captures are typically sharp, frequently requiring very little or no focus adjustment.
Do you think you could measure the precision of your sliding back setup (with back attached) as you did previously with your M line? 4 corners of GG vs 4 corners of sensor ... And if the R2m2 comes with Rotaslide perhaps measure that too? That would be interesting ...
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Certainly the camera itself is going to dictate to a degree which sliding back you use. Arca Swiss doesn't make sliding backs for Sinar view cameras, vice versa, and etc.
The first thing I would do is determine which camera I want, then choose a sliding back. The KaptureGroup version will always be an option as well as the version from the manufacturer of the camera (most of whom offer their own sliding back).
I will say this about the KaptureGroup sliding backs. They are reasonably priced, they are machined well. They are compact. Most importantly, whenever there has been an issue where an adjustment was needed, Keith Hughes (owner, KG) was extremely forthcoming and prompt. He's a big part of the reason I sell mostly the KaptureGroup adapters.
I have had an issue with getting a camera manufacturer's sliding back that had the proper tolerance on the rails so there wasn't any play. Back and forth, overseas, etc.
The camera is the key. Line up your camera first - then talk sliding back.
Steve Hendrix
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Actually, I'll be picking up an RM3D today to try out for a few days, not sure if it will come with a Rotaslide, but if it does I'll compare the two. My Kapture Group slider seems to hold he back in the same focal plane as the ground glass... at least as accurately as my eyes can tell... my first captures are typically sharp, frequently requiring very little or no focus adjustment.
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Please let us know your impressions of the RM3D after you have tried it. I like the fact that it should work with longer lenses as well with a rear bellows extension.
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+1
(http://christopherbarrett.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/ArcaReview_013.jpg)
Actually, I'll be picking up an RM3D today to try out for a few days, not sure if it will come with a Rotaslide, but if it does I'll compare the two. My Kapture Group slider seems to hold he back in the same focal plane as the ground glass... at least as accurately as my eyes can tell... my first captures are typically sharp, frequently requiring very little or no focus adjustment.
I see you use it with the RMFX finder. Don't you find it annoying to have to look from the top in? I currently use the Hartblei version of the HM2 (which even gives a bit more enlargement). I have used the RMFX with my KG truewide and recall having problems now and then. Than again, I use it for table top work mostly maybe your perspective is generally lower?
I second Steves remark about Keith Hughes. Great guy to work with, even when he is across the ocean (from my point of view).
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Do you think you could measure the precision of your sliding back setup (with back attached) as you did previously with your M line? 4 corners of GG vs 4 corners of sensor ... And if the R2m2 comes with Rotaslide perhaps measure that too? That would be interesting ...
Honestly, I'm not quite sure how I would go about that. I can place a dial indicator along the base and look for a variance as I slide the back over. This would tell you if one slider has more slop than the other. But as far as comparing focal planes... I'm not sure what I'd do... maybe place a block across the standard and measure down to the surface of the UV filter and then where do you measure on the groundglass? Where exactly does the focal plane lie? Somewhere between the screen and the fresnel? Even if it was the inner face of the fresnel, which I believe it is not, the measuring device would have to move and I wouldn't expect high accuracy, at least not with the tools that I've got, which are mainly used in restoring old motorcycles : )
I could do a visual test, though and just see which one actually gives me a sharp image after focusing with a loupe, which is really what we're all after anyway, no? Then again, the test is subject to the deficiencies of 40 year old eyes.
-CB
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+1
(http://christopherbarrett.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/ArcaReview_013.jpg)
Actually, I'll be picking up an RM3D today to try out for a few days, not sure if it will come with a Rotaslide, but if it does I'll compare the two. My Kapture Group slider seems to hold he back in the same focal plane as the ground glass... at least as accurately as my eyes can tell... my first captures are typically sharp, frequently requiring very little or no focus adjustment.
One advantage of the Arca Rotaslide is that the ground glass is larger than the Kapture Group which makes it better if you want to stitch a full 6x9 frame or shoot with a film back.
I would be very interested indeed in your experience with the RM3D. Of paramount relevance is your assessment of the accuracy of the helical focus when used with a Leica D5 distance-finder or equivalent with shifts. Also, how quick and practical this is.
The million dollar question is: can the camera be reliably used for critical location view camera work without a laptop?
I am sure you have also considered the RL3D (which is attractive because of its greater movements, use for larger scale stitching, 5" x4" film potential, future-proofing for bigger sensor backs etc).
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I see you use it with the RMFX finder. Don't you find it annoying to have to look from the top in? I currently use the Hartblei version of the HM2 (which even gives a bit more enlargement). I have used the RMFX with my KG truewide and recall having problems now and then. Than again, I use it for table top work mostly maybe your perspective is generally lower?
I second Steves remark about Keith Hughes. Great guy to work with, even when he is across the ocean (from my point of view).
Actually, I'm not getting a lot of use out of the viewer, not real usable at wider (shorter) than 55mm. But yes, my camera is often below chest height and backed against a wall (where the angle finder is a God-send!)
I concur, Kapture Group sliders are beautifully machined and I sent Keith my compliments shortly after purchasing mine. It did become "sticky" after about 6 months. I disassembled and cleaned it, sparingly applied some Phil's Bicycle Grease and its silky smooth again.
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One advantage of the Arca Rotaslide is that the ground glass is larger than the Kapture Group which makes it better if you want to stitch a full 6x9 frame or shoot with a film back.
I would be very interested indeed in your experience with the RM3D. Of paramount relevance is your assessment of the accuracy of the helical focus when used with a Leica D5 distance-finder or equivalent with shifts. Also, how quick and practical this is.
The million dollar question is: can the camera be reliably used for critical location view camera work without a laptop?
I am sure you have also considered the RL3D (which is attractive because of its greater movements, use for larger scale stitching, 5" x4" film potential, future-proofing for bigger sensor backs etc).
I do miss the size of the 6x9 ground glass, I made an acetate mask for mine on inkjet and having the dark translucent mask provided a nice way to be aware of what was just outside of frame (and stitching of course).
I prefer to shoot to laptop to achieve greatest accuracy. I expect you can achieve acceptable focus with many of the available systems without being tethered, I just feel more comfortable being able to zoom into the image at 100%. Maybe I should just spend a day shooting exteriors downtown without the laptop to see how good I can do.
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"The million dollar question is: can the camera be reliably used for critical location view camera work without a laptop?"
with an RM3D, you don't need a laptop !
the nice thing with the rotaslide is that you can use the binocular, but i use a rodenstock 6x loupe for focusing !
i still have some trouble for focusing with my 35 xl and F line... i'm not 100% certain without a laptop !
i've tried the RM3D last month, and find it to be very precise and definitely quicker than a bellow camera...
i've tried a M2 as well, and find it to be a real improvement over my F line, but i will go for a RM3D or a MAX.
the nice thing with Alpa, is that you can share your lenses with different bodies, but for my use, being able to share my lenses
between a RM3D type and a F line makes more sense.
The Kapture Group STITCHING back have a "big" screen also !
(http://www.kapturegroup.com/sba/sliding2008.jpg)
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but for my use, being able to share my lenses
between a RM3D type and a F line makes more sense.
Is that the case, Archie? If so there may be an RM3D in my very near future! I'm intrigued, haven't seen an adapter for this, or do you mean by mounting the whole RM3D as the front standard?
-CB
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if you have an RM3D then you can buy a special adaptor (special order around 300$) for RM3D lenses on arca 110.
but there is one limitation... it's a flat adaptor !
to mount the lenses on your M2, you need to remove both rings from the lens and to screw the lense onto the adaptor lensboard.
you have a second option, is to use the RM3D as a front standard, and then you need a short support for the back (misura style).
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(http://www.galerie-photo.com/images/systeme-rlm3d.jpg)
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my first captures are typically sharp, frequently requiring very little or no focus adjustment.
Is this to say that the back tends to fall out of plane after a few exposures?
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if you have an RM3D then you can buy a special adaptor (special order around 300$) for RM3D lenses on arca 110.
but there is one limitation... it's a flat adaptor !
to mount the lenses on your M2, you need to remove both rings from the lens and to screw the lense onto the adaptor lensboard.
you have a second option, is to use the RM3D as a front standard, and then you need a short support for the back (misura style).
The flat adapter sounds like the way to go then, since you get the full range of movements allowed by lens and M2 no? If you use the RM3D as the front standard, and just the M2 back, you would be limited just to a small range of shifts, since the back would be right up against the body? Or am I missing something.
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The flat adapter sounds like the way to go then, since you get the full range of movements allowed by lens and M2 no? If you use the RM3D as the front standard, and just the M2 back, you would be limited just to a small range of shifts, since the back would be right up against the body? Or am I missing something.
it depends... in the studio, i will go for the flat adapter and the M2... but on location, it's quite cool to be able to mount a bellow and a rail for a longer lens...
But it can be usefull to be able to use the RM3D and the focusing ring as front standard for "Helicon Focus' stuff !
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(http://www.precisioncameraworks.com/Media/Rotalslide.JPG)
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I've used Widepan, Mergin-X and Phase One stitching backs and a Sinar sliding back on a Sinar F2, P and X. The Sinar back is the most rigid and problem free. It mounts directly onto the rear carrier, so the tilt and swing axes are correctly positioned. I've found that stitching using the geared shift and rise/fall movements on the Sinar P and X is far better than using a stitching back.
I also have a fixed Graflok adapter that I used on a Cambo WideDS. With the Cambo, focusing and attaching/re-attaching the back was problematic, and the potential for accidents greatly increased.
I have a question arising from this.
Why don't MFDB's have dark slides?
They are designed to fit in place of film backs - which have dark slides. I know Rainier Viertlbock got his Gottschalt camera modified to have one, so it is possible. What are the technical reasons behind this? If there was a dark slide, there would be no need for a sliding back, at least for me.
Kumar
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Why don't MFDB's have dark slides?
They are designed to fit in place of film backs - which have dark slides. I know Rainier Viertlbock got his Gottschalt camera modified to have one, so it is possible. What are the technical reasons behind this? If there was a dark slide, there would be no need for a sliding back.
Kumar
Hmm... my P65+ has a cover plate, which provides more protection than a dark slide would and takes about the same time / effort to use. And actually, when I move from shot to shot I take the digi back off the sliding back and put it in the camera case. I just don't feel comfortable throwing the camera over my shoulder with a $40k back hanging off of it.
RM3D First Impression: REALLY DAMN NICE! All movements are silky smooth and the tilt is ingenious. I focused the 35mm using the groundglass, took it off and put the digi back on and was tack sharp. Actually, I was slightly off when wide open but at f/11 it was all good. Focusing was really easy with the big ring.
My Kapture Group Slider does work fine on the RM3D, depth must be close enough to the Rotaslide that focus seems fine. The camera didn't come with a Rotaslide, so can't test that. I'm taking the RM3D out on an interiors shoot tomorrow and look forward to spending the day with it!
-CB
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I focused the 35mm using the groundglass, took it off and put the digi back on and was tack sharp. Actually, I was slightly off when wide open but at f/11 it was all good. Focusing was really easy with the big ring.
Can you explain this a bit further - you were off or it was off? f11 on a 35 will tend to make up for slight focus problems.
Also which 35 is it? The rodenstock HR is meant to be sharp to the edges from f4 ...
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Hmm... my P65+ has a cover plate, which provides more protection than a dark slide would and takes about the same time / effort to use. And actually, when I move from shot to shot I take the digi back off the sliding back and put it in the camera case. I just don't feel comfortable throwing the camera over my shoulder with a $40k back hanging off of it.
-CB
All digital backs come with cover plates. The greatest risk of putting a scratch on the sensor is when mounting it on the camera. A slight inadvertent turn of the hand, and ...
The dark slide would not only prevent this from happening, but would also greatly reduce the amount of dust on the sensor.
I think most everyone does take care to remove the back from the camera while moving from shot to shot. The dark slide would add protection while mounting the back. And of course, the cover plate, being a thicker and rigid metal plate would be additional protection.
So does anyone know why MFDB's don't have dark slides?
Kumar
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So does anyone know why MFDB's don't have dark slides?
Kumar
Film backs do not need an IR filter, so between the film plane and the camera's back plate plane there is space for a dark slide.
Digital sensors require an IR filter which needs to sit in a certain distance from the sensor (for optical reasons) and in most cases there is no room for an additional layer between the filter and the camera's back plate plane.
Yair
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Film backs do not need an IR filter, so between the film plane and the camera's back plate plane there is space for a dark slide.
Digital sensors require an IR filter which needs to sit in a certain distance from the sensor (for optical reasons) and in most cases there is no room for an additional layer between the filter and the camera's back plate plane.
Yair
Yes, of course. Forgot about that! I'll see if I can figure out something for my Sinars.
Kumar
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"Dark slide" for digibacks
Yes, of course. Forgot about that! I'll see if I can figure out something for my Sinars.
Kumar
Is the sensor not protected when slid out of the way for focussing?
With wide angles, there is not any spare distance for a sliding cover, but with a Sinar you get the slot where you inserted the ground glass and then the film holder...
Given sufficient room, (depending on bellows and lens) it would be simple to incorporate a slide into the adaptor or the sliding back.
You could leave the back attached to the lensboard and adaptor, and use a standard frame holder (which has two slots, one for the bellows and one for the lensboard) an use a standard blank (no hole) lensboard as a slide.
... or you could make a non-standard triple slot lens-board/frame holder and use the middle slot for a protective slide.
This would all be less bulky with a Sinar P3.
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"Dark slide" for digibacks
Is the sensor not protected when slid out of the way for focussing?
With wide angles, there is not any spare distance for a sliding cover, but with a Sinar you get the slot where you inserted the ground glass and then the film holder...
Given sufficient room, (depending on bellows and lens) it would be simple to incorporate a slide into the adaptor or the sliding back.
You could leave the back attached to the lensboard and adaptor, and use a standard frame holder (which has two slots, one for the bellows and one for the lensboard) an use a standard blank (no hole) lensboard as a slide.
... or you could make a non-standard triple slot lens-board/frame holder and use the middle slot for a protective slide.
This would all be less bulky with a Sinar P3.
Yes, the sensor is protected when slid out of the way for focusing on a sliding back. What I'm trying to figure out is a way to protect the sensor when attaching/removing the digi back on a view camera, much like a dark slide in a conventional roll-film holder.
Kumar
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I asked Kapture group:
"I am interested in the three-position adaptor for the 60Mpx Hasselblad digiback and the Sinar P3... what image and pixel sizes would this produce? 53.7 * 90mm & 134 Mpx? That would be 24 * 41 inches @ 360 original camera pixels per print inch!"
They said:
We currently offer a 2 or 3 position stitch adapter that have the following coverage area.
2 x Landscape 83.40 mm x 40.4 mm
3 x Portrait 75.8 mm x 53.9 mm
...and they are looking into making a sliding back for the 60Mpx sensors.
I replied:
Can you give me some indication when the sliding back for the 60Mpx sensors will be available, and will it be available for the P3 giving a 53.7 * 90mm image or what?
Can you supply "universal" sliding backs without detents?
Would you consider a 9*9cm ground glass for use with the rear rise/fall on a Sinar P3 with the triple stitch back for hex-stich?
I am thinking of mortising one for remote use on a 10m tripod: I am an agricultural electronic engineer who once contemplated a career in robotics.
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I use one from Widepan in China, $350 on eBay. Sinar-Hassy-V. Simple. Works smoothly. I can 3-shot stich in portrait-mode for pretty intense files. Also use rear rise/fall/shift to augment as inspired.
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Honestly, I'm not quite sure how I would go about that. I can place a dial indicator along the base and look for a variance as I slide the back over. This would tell you if one slider has more slop than the other. But as far as comparing focal planes... I'm not sure what I'd do... maybe place a block across the standard and measure down to the surface of the UV filter and then where do you measure on the groundglass? Where exactly does the focal plane lie? Somewhere between the screen and the fresnel? Even if it was the inner face of the fresnel, which I believe it is not, the measuring device would have to move and I wouldn't expect high accuracy, at least not with the tools that I've got, which are mainly used in restoring old motorcycles : )
I could do a visual test, though and just see which one actually gives me a sharp image after focusing with a loupe, which is really what we're all after anyway, no? Then again, the test is subject to the deficiencies of 40 year old eyes.
-CB
Chris,
You are correct about difficulty checking for depth variation between gg position
and sensor plane. The actual plane resides below physical surface of sensor.
Because of this the physical distances will not coincide. Arca actually takes this into consideration when mounting
RM3d lenses. They test to actual backs with each lens. What this also points out is that there may be a variance
with a traditional view camera with any particular digital back, so testing may be required with a new back, and or camera.
Rod