Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Bill Lawrence on December 11, 2009, 08:11:05 pm
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Hi All,
I'd appreciate thoughts on which back to be looking for, probably between a Phase One P45 (not plus) or a Hasselblad CF/CFV-39. I'm a landscape photographer, usually "the grand landscapes", who shoots 4x5 and a Canon 5D, and prints digitally. I love using the view camera as it forces me to slow down and compose, but the film processing and scanning is definitely a bottleneck in the workflow. I'm considering a MFDB to put on the back of a 2x3 or 4x5 view camera, and looking for a used back in the 39MP range. I don't use film above 100 ISO in the view camera, so don't really need hi ISO capacity, but would like to be able to be able to do exposures at 100 ISO for up to about a minute for low light situations. Big sensor area is a plus, but it looks like the only thing bigger than these two is the P65+, which is out of my price range. Low noise at 100 ISO is important, as is good color and tonal representation. I'll probably pick up a MF body to go with the back, but since I don't own any medium format gear at the moment (other than a lovely Zeiss-Ikon TLR) and I want to use it on the view camera, I'm worrying about the back first and the body later. I'm not so much looking for "which is best", but I'd appreciate any comments on the relative advantages and disadvantages of the two backs that might help me to decide which to get.
Thanks!
Bill
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Bill, I think the P45 is going to be your back for long exposures. I haven't used the Leaf or Blad backs, but I believe a minute is pushing it on those, whereas the P45 can do several minutes easily. I have used the P25+, P45, P45+ and P65+ on Arcas and was always happy.
What camera and lenses are most common to your shooting?
The one thing I'll say has been a disappointment, looking at a 6x9 or 645 groundglass is nothing like standing behind a 4x5 under the darkcloth. You won't really retain the same experience.
-CB
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Bill, I think the P45 is going to be your back for long exposures. I haven't used the Leaf or Blad backs, but I believe a minute is pushing it on those, whereas the P45 can do several minutes easily. I have used the P25+, P45, P45+ and P65+ on Arcas and was always happy.
If you want a digital back that can do ISO100 at 1 minute and works on a view camera than you have exactly four options: P20+, P21+, P25+, P45+ and P45.
No other digital backs will do that. Every back from Hassy, Leaf, and Sinar, and any other back from Phase either wont' work on a view camera (because they use strong microlenses) or can't handle that length of exposure.
The maximum exposure time for all digital backs is measured at base ISO. At higher ISO the maximum exposure actually decreases. Most backs are rated at 30 seconds or 60 seconds, but only at base ISO (usually 25 or 50). The P20+, P21+, P25+, P45+ and P45 are the only backs (which can be used on a view camera) that can go beyond that (the 45 non plus can go for "several minutes", the + backs can go for around an hour at normal temperatures or several hours at colder temperatures.
So if you are sure you need that length of exposure then you can, for all intents and purposes, stop looking at anything other than those five Phase One backs. Therefore it would be prudent to carefully consider whether you could settle for a back which can handle e.g. 30 seconds at ISO50; that you could do with most backs and would allow you to pick from a broader range of backs.
Doug Peterson ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
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That's funny, I can do 64 second exposures on my H3D II 39. Does something strange happen if I put it on a view camera? Here's an image at 45 seconds: http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=9673774 (http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=9673774)
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If you want a digital back that can do ISO100 at 1 minute and works on a view camera than you have exactly four options: P20+, P21+, P25+, P45+ and P45.
If you want long exposures can you not take multiple exposures and then add-merge and stack them in Photoshop?
I had thought that this would also work for when one has insufficient flash power, e.g. the inside of a cathedral with a handful of battery flashes.
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If you want long exposures can you not take multiple exposures and then add-merge and stack them in Photoshop?
This theory doesn't hold for landscape. Too many things move.
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If you want long exposures can you not take multiple exposures and then add-merge and stack them in Photoshop?
This theory doesn't hold for landscape. Too many things move.
¿I think that they would probably also move during a one minute plus exposure?
One of the benefits of view camera photography is that you can use the movements to allow you get the DOF you want at larger apertures, so you do not need such long exposures... so you can use one exposure for surf (or trees-in the wind or anything else moving) and others for the rest of the picture.
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Problem with the H3/H4 backs is that you will need an external powersource to feed your back. Personally I find this annoying and making me feel going back the time of my Valeo & Ixpress backs. The alternative is the Hasselblad CF back (which I use). Hasselblad backs do now 64sec's and there is the promise of much longer...
Other options are the P1 backs, especially when you need longer than 64sec's there is indeed no alternative besides the P21/25/30/45 (or the + version of these).
I am pretty sure I would be able to use any one of these backs and be happy with it.
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If you want long exposures can you not take multiple exposures and then add-merge and stack them in Photoshop?
I had thought that this would also work for when one has insufficient flash power, e.g. the inside of a cathedral with a handful of battery flashes.
Interesting. Have you actually done this yourself?
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I would have thought a complete f3/emotion landscape system (http://www.image2output.com/Product.aspx?id=2397&cat=38) would be a good value bet you could possibly get one of the small screen emotion 75 for the extra pixels without the pounds - and going up in quality would take into consideration a sinar artec (also as a package with mfdb)where you can step and repeat in a completely accurate way for panoramic shots. also these backs can fit (with adaptor) just about any other mf camera body.
edwin
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Thanks for all the replies! It sounds like the P45 may be the way to go, although if necessary I can deal with more limitations on the long exposures. The Phase One specs say "couple of minutes" or some such on the P45, but wasn't sure if this was realistic to expect on either of the backs. Much of my work would be max a few seconds, and for my night time work if worse comes to worse I can switch to the 5D and cope (or back to Provia and cope), but I couldn't tell what the limitations were for the back.
Chris - most of my shooting is on a 125 or 210, though I use a 72 and 450 on occasion, using a Canham DLC45. I'm assuming shorter lenses and maybe smaller camera are in the cards, but want to get used to the back first. Agreed it won't be the same as 4x5, but still better than 35mm DSLR.
Doug - That is quite helpful. I was having difficulty trying to separate the two on the promotional materials.
Dick and Jeff - I've never considered stacking exposures (never occurred to me, even though I have friends who are into astrophotography) - time for an experiment on the DSLR.
Edwin - I wouldn't be averse to a Sinar, but I haven't seen them showing up used that often, so I haven't looked into them that much.
Thanks, everyone!
Bill
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That's funny, I can do 64 second exposures on my H3D II 39. Does something strange happen if I put it on a view camera? Here's an image at 45 seconds: http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=9673774 (http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=9673774)
That's a beautiful image. However, what ISO were you shooting at? Most likely 50. As I said there are several systems which can do a good job up to a minute (or 64 seconds) at base ISO. Your H3D-II-39 is included there (as is the P65+). However, at anything above base ISO that minute long exposure begins to degrade pretty badly. If this is not the case with your H3D-II-39 please share an example of a 64 second exposure at ISO 100 (or higher) including a 100% crop on some meaningful detail so that we (myself included) can all be better informed. The H3D-31 has a base ISO of 100 and could do a minute long exposure at ISO100, but is not suitable for use on a view camera.
I think I was fair in my advice that the user should consider whether he really needs exposures longer than than. As I mentioned on another thread (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=39808) there are ways you can try to cheat another stop or two. If he can give up long exposures as a requirement then he can look at many other great systems from Leaf, Phase One, Hasselblad, and Sinar - all of whom provide some very good solutions. However, if the OP really does consider exposures longer than 1 min / ISO 50 to be important then there is very little doubt the Phase backs I outlined are his only option and anything else would be interfering with his creative process.
Note that I very specifically excluded the P20 non plus, P21 non plus, and P25 non plus as these backs don't hold up well in long exposures. The P45 non plus is the only non plus back which could do "several minutes".
The P20+, P21+, P25+, P45+ and P45 are his options for good long exposures.
Doug Peterson ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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Chris - most of my shooting is on a 125 or 210, though I use a 72 and 450 on occasion, using a Canham DLC45. I'm assuming shorter lenses and maybe smaller camera are in the cards, but want to get used to the back first. Agreed it won't be the same as 4x5, but still better than 35mm DSLR.
I was wondering how wide you shoot. I believe the P45 equivalent of your 72mm would be somewhere around a 28mm (not sure what the exact crop factors are). You're going to have a hard time finding a view camera that focuses that wide. This was the first roadblock I ran into. Luckily I was shooting with an Arca F Line and I was able to reverse the standards and shoot really wide with recessed boards. Next, tolerances became a problem. Being a little bit out of square on a digital back can make focusing a nightmare. I highly recommend renting a back to try out on your Canham to see how workable it all is. Some of the dealers like Capture Integration can FedEx out a rental. Of course you'll need an adapter to get it on your camera...with rental fees it can be an expensive test, but cheaper than buying a back you can't really use, or don't enjoy using.
Best of luck!
-CB
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That's a beautiful image. However, what ISO were you shooting at? Most likely 50. As I said there are several systems which can do a good job up to a minute (or 64 seconds) at base ISO. Your H3D-II-39 is included there (as is the P65+). However, at anything above base ISO that minute long exposure begins to degrade pretty badly. If this is not the case with your H3D-II-39 please share an example of a 64 second exposure at ISO 100 (or higher) including a 100% crop on some meaningful detail so that we (myself included) can all be better informed. The H3D-31 has a base ISO of 100 and could do a minute long exposure at ISO100, but is not suitable for use on a view camera.
I think I was fair in my advice that the user should consider whether he really needs exposures longer than than. As I mentioned on another thread (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=39808) there are ways you can try to cheat another stop or two. If he can give up long exposures as a requirement then he can look at many other great systems from Leaf, Phase One, Hasselblad, and Sinar - all of whom provide some very good solutions. However, if the OP really does consider exposures longer than 1 min / ISO 50 to be important then there is very little doubt the Phase backs I outlined are his only option and anything else would be interfering with his creative process.
Note that I very specifically excluded the P20 non plus, P21 non plus, and P25 non plus as these backs don't hold up well in long exposures. The P45 non plus is the only non plus back which could do "several minutes".
The P20+, P21+, P25+, P45+ and P45 are his options for good long exposures.
Doug Peterson ()
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Leaf, Cambo, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
RSS Feed: Subscribe (http://www.captureintegration.com/2008/08/11/rss-feeds/)
Buy Capture One at 10% off (http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/buy-capture-one/)
Sorry Doug but that is total utter BS and will gladly post you a 64s shot at 100 ISO tomorrow night.
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Sorry Doug but that is total utter BS and will gladly post you a 64s shot at 100 ISO tomorrow night.
David
You are 100% correct. I have to apologize to everyone here for Doug's post. First - as you stated, it is not correct. I have had plenty of experience with Hasselblad products, and what Doug stated about long exposure at ISO 100 degrading quickly is not true. Long exposure at ISO 100 looks very good.
Further, regardless of whether what Doug said was factual or not, Hasselblad is a product we do not currently sell. Therefore, he should not have commented on Hasselbad at all in the first place.
As a company, Capture Integration tries very hard to be as objective as possible in an extremely competitive industry and to uphold professional standards with respect to our competitors as much as possible. Doug's post was not in keeping with the spirit of that objective and for that we apologize.
Doug is a tremendous asset to Capture Integration and to our customers (and to many anonymous posters on this forum). However, his most outstanding value is the depth of his knowledge on Phase One products more than anything else and he will make more of an effort to adhere to his specialty in the future.
Thank you and sorry for the inappropriate post from Doug.
Steve Hendrix
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If you want long exposures can you not take multiple exposures and then add-merge and stack them in Photoshop?
Interesting. Have you actually done this yourself?
No... but add is one of the merge options, so I think it should work.
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I was wondering how wide you shoot. I believe the P45 equivalent of your 72mm would be somewhere around a 28mm (not sure what the exact crop factors are). You're going to have a hard time finding a view camera that focuses that wide. This was the first roadblock I ran into. Luckily I was shooting with an Arca F Line and I was able to reverse the standards and shoot really wide with recessed boards. Next, tolerances became a problem. Being a little bit out of square on a digital back can make focusing a nightmare. I highly recommend renting a back to try out on your Canham to see how workable it all is. Some of the dealers like Capture Integration can FedEx out a rental. Of course you'll need an adapter to get it on your camera...with rental fees it can be an expensive test, but cheaper than buying a back you can't really use, or don't enjoy using.
Best of luck!
-CB
Thanks, Chris! Your point is well taken, and I figured rental was probably the next step - I'd rather lay out the rental fees before buying the back. This thread at least gives me some ideas on where to start. The Canham will go down to 53mm extension, without recessed boards or such, so if the DB works out, I'll need to figure out something to go wider (and still fit in my backpack).
Cheers!
Bill
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What's the difference between the P45 and the P45+ ?
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archivue, this may anwser your question
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/...s/p45plus.shtml (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/p45plus.shtml)
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First off thanks to Steve Hendrix for his post, Steve has always been a gentleman!
As Dustbak pointed out some of the hasselblad backs are less suited to working on a view camera because they need external power (either a laptop, hasselblad's image bank which is an expensive battery powered external hard drive, or something like the big wave power solution).
However the OP did state he was looking at the CFV CF backs so the battery issue is moot as they are both self powered backs.
As for long exposures I did talk to a chap once who had been testing firmware on his CF39 that let him shoot up to 30 minutes but not sure when we'll see that.... Certainly don't buy any piece of kit based on what might be coming but rather on what works for you now.
oh and I believe the "micro lensed backs don't work on view cameras" argument to be rather over stated as I regularly use my H3D31 (microlensed) with the HTS and have yet to see a colour cast (but I'll use the scene calibration in phocus if I do).
Hope that sheds some light.
Nick-T
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[quote name='dougpetersonci' date='Dec 11 2009, 11:57 PM' post='332075']
The maximum exposure time for all digital backs is measured at base ISO. At higher ISO the maximum exposure actually decreases. Most backs are rated at 30 seconds or 60 seconds, but only at base ISO (usually 25 or 50). The P20+, P21+, P25+, P45+ and P45 are the only backs (which can be used on a view camera) that can go beyond that (the 45 non plus can go for "several minutes", the + backs can go for around an hour at normal temperatures or several hours at colder temperatures.
[font="Arial"]Doug Peterson ()
Doug:
I was told that the P21+ can not work on a technical or view camera at all.
you seem to think that this is possible.
I'm not looking for huge movements, just maybe 3-5mm of rise at times, is this possible with this back?
I noticed you listed the P21+ but not the P30+
What about the Microlenses? is there a problem with colour shift?
Thank you in Advance.
am
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As for long exposures I did talk to a chap once who had been testing firmware on his CF39 that let him shoot up to 30 minutes but not sure when we'll see that.... Certainly don't buy any piece of kit based on what might be coming but rather on what works for you now.
Nick-T
I have been talking to a similar guy that did the same thing and seen the resulting images as well which looked great. I sure hope this firmware will materialize eventually.... I agree, do not buy anything based on promised features in the future. I have heard these things for years and invariably they are either unbelievably late or never arrive.
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I was told that the P21+ can not work on a technical or view camera at all.
you seem to think that this is possible.
I'm not looking for huge movements, just maybe 3-5mm of rise at times, is this possible with this back?
I noticed you listed the P21+ but not the P30+
What about the Microlenses? is there a problem with colour shift?
you can use the P21+ on a view camera... but limited.
The longer the lenses the better they work with the P21+.
With the Digitar 47XL color cast is not a problem. But light falloff is heavy at large movements due to the microlenses. However 3-5mm rise is fine.
I think a 35mm is too wide for the P21+ but am not quite sure.
@Nick: the HTS might work okay as the rear lens is not really close to the sensor. On a view camera the lens is very close to the sensor...
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you can use the P21+ on a view camera... but limited.
The longer the lenses the better they work with the P21+.
With the Digitar 47XL color cast is not a problem. But light falloff is heavy at large movements due to the microlenses. However 3-5mm rise is fine.
I think a 35mm is too wide for the P21+ but am not quite sure.
@Nick: the HTS might work okay as the rear lens is not really close to the sensor. On a view camera the lens is very close to the sensor...
Thomas
Thank you for the response
I'm actually very fund of the P21+
it's the prefect size for doing lookbooks and the sort.
do you think it's possible to use it on a technical camera with a 28HR with no movements ?
thanks again
am
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do you think it's possible to use it on a technical camera with a 28HR with no movements
I don't know, I'm sorry. Somewhere I've read something about the P21+ and wide angles and it was put about that with very wide angles it is not really usable. Unfortunately I don't remember the article / contribution. My P21+ and 47XL work very fine... within moderate movements (with large movements it's not just light falloff... we are actually talking about almost black corners in a range where the P45 shows a falloff of around 1.5 stops).
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If you want a digital back that can do ISO100 at 1 minute and works on a view camera than you have exactly four options: P20+, P21+, P25+, P45+ and P45.
No other digital backs will do that. Every back from Hassy, Leaf, and Sinar, and any other back from Phase either wont' work on a view camera (because they use strong microlenses) or can't handle that length of exposure.
I do not want to speak for Doug, but I am sure he meant to write 1 HOUR with this list, not 1 minute
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I'm considering a MFDB to put on the back of a 2x3 or 4x5 view camera, and looking for a used back in the 39MP range. I don't use film above 100 ISO in the view camera, so don't really need hi ISO capacity, but would like to be able to be able to do exposures at 100 ISO for up to about a minute for low light situations. Big sensor area is a plus, but it looks like the only thing bigger than these two is the P65+, which is out of my price range. Low noise at 100 ISO is important, as is good color and tonal representation.
Bill,
At what aperture are you working so as to need 1 min exposure?
Cheers,
Bernard
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I do not want to speak for Doug, but I am sure he meant to write 1 HOUR with this list, not 1 minute
I would assume that as well. 1 minute on a p45+ is nothing ... I've done 8-12 minute exposures frequently. I think the 1 hour limit is correct.
p65+ no ... 1 minute is it.
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[indent][/indent]
Bill,
At what aperture are you working so as to need 1 min exposure?
Cheers,
Bernard
Hi Bernard,
I was trying to determine what the range of my usual shooting was with my 4x5. Night shots are a small pecentage of my shots, but I'll frequently do f22 for a couple of minutes when I do it. Worse comes to worse, I can drag along some Provia with me, which ha never been a problem for me with reciprocity, but i was trying to find a back that could at least come close to covering some of these shots. If there are compelling reasons to go for different backs, I could dump this criterion, but if all else is equal, the ability for at least moderately long exposures is helpful.
Cheers!
Bill
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If you're thinking of putting a digital back on your canham with anything wider than a 90 you should really check how aligned your front and rear standards are, or how aligned you can regularly and repeatedly get them to be.
The canham is not a good camera for a digital back - there's a lot of play and the bellows push the standards away from each other when compressed.
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Hi Steve, thanks for your post.
Hi Bill,
My recommendation is to test first hand as much as your local dealer will allow. You should try to test everything in your budget and see first hand pro's and con's of every system. Currently we have Hasselblad, Leaf, & Sinar for MF Digital Backs and might have Phase in rental and maybe for sales in the new year. We shall see what's best for us and our partners. Currently there is only one system that shoots longer than 64 sec exposure and that is Phase. With each exposure you have an equally as long calibration exposure. In my opinion the larger, better screen on some of the H3D backs offsets the use of the Image Bank as a power supply and storage unit on location when shooting to a view camera. You're carrying a tripod, head, and view camera so what's the big deal of having a small FW drive unit & battery? The CFV-39 is at a great price point and worth testing. It does work with an external battery & CF card, to the Image bank, and to a computer. Hasselblad Phocus 2.0 software and camera firmware has just been released and is FREE of charge. It's your money, test, test, test.....
Best,
Rich Andres
Foto Care
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Thanks for all the replies! It sounds like the P45 may be the way to go, although if necessary I can deal with more limitations on the long exposures. The Phase One specs say "couple of minutes" or some such on the P45, but wasn't sure if this was realistic to expect on either of the backs. Much of my work would be max a few seconds, and for my night time work if worse comes to worse I can switch to the 5D and cope (or back to Provia and cope), but I couldn't tell what the limitations were for the back.
Chris - most of my shooting is on a 125 or 210, though I use a 72 and 450 on occasion, using a Canham DLC45. I'm assuming shorter lenses and maybe smaller camera are in the cards, but want to get used to the back first. Agreed it won't be the same as 4x5, but still better than 35mm DSLR.
Doug - That is quite helpful. I was having difficulty trying to separate the two on the promotional materials.
Dick and Jeff - I've never considered stacking exposures (never occurred to me, even though I have friends who are into astrophotography) - time for an experiment on the DSLR.
Edwin - I wouldn't be averse to a Sinar, but I haven't seen them showing up used that often, so I haven't looked into them that much.
Thanks, everyone!
Bill
Whillst you are unlikely to find one used, the Aptuss II 10 is as wide a sesor as the P65+ and costs 30-40% less as a stand alone purchase (P65 can be better value when bought as part of a larger order). I don't know how these two compare for long exposures, but both being dalsa chips of the same generation prob. about the same - I would have thought at least a minute.
Before buying the non-plus P45, read Michaels P45 against P45+ review on this site, for some reason the non-plus version was no way near as sharp, but then you normally pay a $5K premuium for teh plus version even on the second hand market.
I have to make do with a Kodak Pro Back 645 being a poor student (about 15 seconds is the limmit!)
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These days, the world of 'larger' sensor photography just boils down to either Phase or Hasselblad, but there are some interesting variations within the Phase 'family'. I have been using the Mamiya 645 AFDII with the ZD back for the last two years. Generally, people seem to reach for the spitoon whenever the ZD is mentioned, but as I understand it, it uses a 46x38mm 22MP sensor and the exposures will go out as long as you like (they are horribly noisy though beyond a minute). Mamiya still make adapters to put this back onto the RZ67 ProII SD and onto 4x5 cameras. The performance of this back is poor at the extremes of dynamic range, but make no mistake, you can get good images out of it and it has an interesting (and I think unique) trick up its sleeve in that it can do true infra-red. It is just a shame that corporate priorities are likely to have dictated a lack of support for this product in terms of firmware support, because it is cheap, it is self-contained and it is practical (takes SD and CF cards).
I am just in the process of buying the Leaf Aptus 75S (will probably keep the ZD as a back up and to do the IR). I am told this is essentially the same as the Aptus II 7, but with a slightly dimmer LCD screen. Reviews on this site and elsewhere seem to indicate that this back is competitive with the P45+ and I think I am right in saying that it does not suffer with the colour shift issue when using movements. It is less self contained than the Phase back in that the battery hangs off the bottom of it, but that is the price you pay for the large LCD screen. I was told that the Dalsa based sensors have a more 'filmic' quality to them than the Kodak based sensors (as in most of the Phase backs) and I am certainly very impressed with the quality of the images out of this back. That really just leaves the issue of the longer than 30 seconds exposure thing (which it cannot do). Personally, I cannot see what the problem might be here. You get 12 stops of DR out of the Leaf back. Unless you want to shoot in really low light (and I would use a current full-frame DSLR for that), it should easily meet your needs.
As for the LF thing, well I have spent the last 25 years shooting LF to get the photographic quality and speaking personally again, I think it is a massively overrated pastime. I cannot tell you how much of a relief it was to finally get rid of all my LF gear finally about eighteen months ago. However, I have been thinking about an LF type camera to go with the leaf back, if only so that I can use say a 24mm SA XL. I would forget about your Canham or just about any 4x5 camera and I would want a totally rigid setup with the lens in a helical mount. Depth of focus issues could be dealt with with say Helicon Focus and I might be interested in a bit of rise, but even then, not that much. I would look at something like the Alpa TC (light, cheap and totally rigid) or the Cambo Wide RS with the Schneider 24mm lens (Calumet seem to be doing a good deal on that just now).
Just my slightly alternative thoughts on your conundrum...... Oh and no one is going to give me a spanking for saying the 'wrong' thing(!)
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Whillst you are unlikely to find one used, the Aptuss II 10 is as wide a sesor as the P65+ and costs 30-40% less as a stand alone purchase (P65 can be better value when bought as part of a larger order). I don't know how these two compare for long exposures, but both being dalsa chips of the same generation prob. about the same - I would have thought at least a minute.
Before buying the non-plus P45, read Michaels P45 against P45+ review on this site, for some reason the non-plus version was no way near as sharp, but then you normally pay a $5K premuium for teh plus version even on the second hand market.
I have to make do with a Kodak Pro Back 645 being a poor student (about 15 seconds is the limmit!)
Just for clarity - the Leaf Aptus II lists for about 19% less than the P65+ ($39,990 vs $32,494).
FYI - Kodak Pro Backs are worth at least $4,000 - $7,000 in trade, depending on which back you are trading in for.
Steve Hendrix
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I am just in the process of buying the Leaf Aptus 75S (will probably keep the ZD as a back up and to do the IR). I am told this is essentially the same as the Aptus II 7, but with a slightly dimmer LCD screen. Reviews on this site and elsewhere seem to indicate that this back is competitive with the P45+ and I think I am right in saying that it does not suffer with the colour shift issue when using movements.
Actually, my position with digital backs is that just about any digital back may require a white plexi capture to remove issues when using movements and/or wide lenses. I have stopped referring to these issues as "color shifts" but instead they are "anomalies", which may be rendered as a color shift or a sudden density shift, etc. There are numerous variables, the brand of the sensor, the model of the digital back, the lens (different brand lenses of the same focal length may not produce the same anomaly, or any anomaly at all), the camera movements, etc.
Some backs may never produce any issue, while others are known to. P45+ models are more prone to color cast, Aptus 75 more prone to density shift. In either case, the anomaly can be corrected by capturing a white plexi and applying that mapping to the original file in post.
Steve Hendrix
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Just for clarity - the Leaf Aptus II lists for about 19% less than the P65+ ($39,990 vs $32,494).
FYI - Kodak Pro Backs are worth at least $4,000 - $7,000 in trade, depending on which back you are trading in for.
Steve Hendrix
Yep I stand corrected, what I said was wrong, but atleast not as radiculous as some of the stuff said on this thread already ;-)
Ii promise I am not a Leaf fan boy...... although I do use a Kodak Back (not sure the 645M will work on a view camera... shame)
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. The performance of this back is poor at the extremes of dynamic range, but make no mistake, you can get good images out of it and it has an interesting (and I think unique) trick up its sleeve in that it can do true infra-red.
If I leave the Ir filter off my Kodak pro back and whack the right filter over my lens, I reckon I can get "true IR" what ever that is. The M8 will sort of do this too give or take 100nm!
Who let that Kodak fan boy pedant in here
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However, at anything above base ISO that minute long exposure begins to degrade pretty badly. If this is not the case with your H3D-II-39 please share an example of a 64 second exposure at ISO 100 (or higher) including a 100% crop on some meaningful detail so that we (myself included) can all be better informed. The H3D-31 has a base ISO of 100 and could do a minute long exposure at ISO100, but is not suitable for use on a view camera.
Here is an example of a 64 second exposure at ISO100...
I will also upload a 16-Bit if anyone wants to peep.
Now this image looks very deceptive as it looks like I was in daylight. But it was getting pretty dark by that point. You can see the time stamp is 1620 and sunset today was 1552, so that is the surreal nature of long exposure I guess!
When the upload is done I will edit this post to reflect the link.
16 - Bit TIFF
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2849451/H3DII39Long.tif.zip (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2849451/H3DII39Long.tif.zip)
3F Raw File
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2849451/H3DII39Long.fff.zip (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2849451/H3DII39Long.fff.zip)
Best,
David
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Here is an example of a 64 second exposure at ISO100...
David
I think we established one minute wasn't a problem. Is this the basic limit then? Or are much longer exposures possible? I would suspect that anything that can't be done in a minute is something being shot for effect, such as star trails. So if needing more than a minute, it's not 90 seconds or such, but it's more like several minutes or an hour. Just curious where the Hasselblad is on this.
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[indent][/indent]
I was trying to determine what the range of my usual shooting was with my 4x5. Night shots are a small pecentage of my shots, but I'll frequently do f22 for a couple of minutes when I do it. Worse comes to worse, I can drag along some Provia with me, which ha never been a problem for me with reciprocity, but i was trying to find a back that could at least come close to covering some of these shots. If there are compelling reasons to go for different backs, I could dump this criterion, but if all else is equal, the ability for at least moderately long exposures is helpful.
Have you considered at all doing stitching with your 5DII? f8-f11 will probably give the same DoF as f22 on 4x5 with much shorter times.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I think we established one minute wasn't a problem. Is this the basic limit then? Or are much longer exposures possible? I would suspect that anything that can't be done in a minute is something being shot for effect, such as star trails. So if needing more than a minute, it's not 90 seconds or such, but it's more like several minutes or an hour. Just curious where the Hasselblad is on this.
Hi Wayne,
I was responding to an earlier post where it was claimed it wasn't possible to do a 64s exposure at anything other than base ISO.
Exactly true what you say though, I think more than 1 minute in a lot of cases is not necessary. I was standing in near darkness by the time I had finished shooting.
As to where Hasselblad is... we are always looking to improve.
Best,
David
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I do not want to speak for Doug, but I am sure he meant to write 1 HOUR with this list, not 1 minute
Agree with Jack
I want to be sure no one is getting the impression that you cannot use the digital backs from Hasselblad on large-format cameras (or any other camera as long as there is an H-mount.) These configurations are available as flash-sync mode and pinhole mode (for dark studio.)
Best to be informed, right?
Power to the H3D series digital backs can be provided by either FireWire from computer or external FireWire battery devices.
John
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Hi Wayne,
I was responding to an earlier post where it was claimed it wasn't possible to do a 64s exposure at anything other than base ISO.
Exactly true what you say though, I think more than 1 minute in a lot of cases is not necessary. I was standing in near darkness by the time I had finished shooting.
As to where Hasselblad is... we are always looking to improve.
Best,
David
As I said "so that we can all be better informed (myself included)". I'm happy to be better informed on this and am glad to see Hassy providing decent quality at 1 minute at other-than-base-ISO. Thank you for the correction/elaboration David!
Frankly I should not have commented on Hassy's products in the first place as it is not my area of expertise and it's not a product the company I work for sells. It was wrong to do so and I won't in the future.
Doug Peterson ()
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As I said "so that we can all be better informed (myself included)". I'm happy to be better informed on this and am glad to see Hassy providing decent quality at 1 minute at other-than-base-ISO. Thank you for the correction/elaboration David!
Frankly I should not have commented on Hassy's products in the first place as it is not my area of expertise and it's not a product the company I work for sells. It was wrong to do so and I won't in the future.
No worries Doug!
Also I have used an H3D31 on a view camera before and it really wasn't so bad. I would hesitate to recommend if you were using the very wide angle lenses, but I wouldn't rule it out completely.
D