Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Graham Mitchell on December 08, 2009, 06:28:44 pm
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http://luminous-landscape.com/reviews/came...tblei-cam.shtml (http://luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/hartblei-cam.shtml)
Seems like an interesting piece of kit for a small niche. I found the article slightly unclear about one thing: Michael was using a P45+ back which is not full 645 (1.17x crop factor), yet used the term '645' throughout the article. I wonder how much movement there would be, if any, with the P65+? At least the P45+ is a common sensor size which most readers will relate to.
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The difference is tiny. The 24mm T/S in particular has tremendous covering power.
Michael
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after reading Rainer's comparison between the TS-E Eos and Rodenstock HR this seems like the way to go for the extreme wide angle
one question Micheal? how long does it take for the motor to move the sliding back from viewing to capture?
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Curious to know the manufacturer in Italy....Fatif, Silvestri,...?
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after reading Rainer's comparison between the TS-E Eos and Rodenstock HR this seems like the way to go for the extreme wide angle
one question Micheal? how long does it take for the motor to move the sliding back from viewing to capture?
About 3-4 seconds.
Michael
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My socks still poised.
Eduardo
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as interesting as the Harblei cam is, it is not unique.
I have been using the TrueWide from Kapture group for almost a year with the ONLY Leica R mount they ever did!
attached.
I used with P45+ (better with crop factor) now P65+ (vignetting, but sill more than 40MP center)
see the setup and image (cropped)
that is with Leica R Modular 800mm 200 ft away
HOWEVER, and it is a BIG however, the TrueWide has a copal shutter max 1/125
hence the massive optical bench (with 28" RRS camera bar!)
[and yes, color balance offf didnt convert from PhotoProRGB to sRGB :-(
BTW do click to see the large image. detail is impressive
Imaging a 40MP Leica R... better than an R10
and yes, I am considering the Hcam with 1/4000!
Victor
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interesting review on both a nicely thought out and exectured image capture platform, and a little more interesting Canon lens. May be all the newer gernation Canon lenses all intended to have larger than usual image circle to make way for a larger than 135 sensor size medium format Canon?
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Immensely interesting camera and review.
I wonder if the 35mm super-teles have equally large image circles, like their large-format counterparts.
Is there any compatible film back? Hasselblad A12 would need a film transport mechanism.
Pedro
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About 3-4 seconds.
Michael
On the Truewide, as fast as you can move with your hand, and cock the shutter
about1-2 secs
Victor
PS I have NO interest in Kapture gp, and if the Hcam were available last year I probably would have bought it instead. But These things have BIG limitations. My socks are still in place as well
LOL
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So what would happen if you put a 600mm Canon telephoto on the HCam? Supposedly most telephoto lenses have plenty of excess image circle; could that be another niche for the HCam?
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So what would happen if you put a 600mm Canon telephoto on the HCam? Supposedly most telephoto lenses have plenty of excess image circle; could that be another niche for the HCam?
I would love to see that ;-) or even better use the Canon 1200.
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I would love to see that ;-) or even better use the Canon 1200.
1200 + HCam = geekgasm...
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So what would happen if you put a 600mm Canon telephoto on the HCam? Supposedly most telephoto lenses have plenty of excess image circle; could that be another niche for the HCam?
well I can tell you the Leica R modular doesnt-it is fine on P45+ with 1.1 crop but the P65+ vignettes terribly
I have used some Viso Leica lenses directly on the Contax FF and they are fine (280 in particular)
All Hassey lenses too but these you just need adapters for Contax or Mamyia
I will be checking other Leica lenses, as telephoto is my interest even if it vignettes. Hell, where else can you get 40 MP for a Leica telephoto?
I don't do Canon and frankly the idea of putting a canon lens on a $50k camera (incl back of course) just boggles my mind. but what do old farts know (67 and counting!)
Victor
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well I can tell you the Leica R modular doesnt-it is fine on P45+ with 1.1 crop but the P65+ vignettes terribly
I have used some Viso Leica lenses directly on the Contax FF and they are fine (280 in particular)
All Hassey lenses too but these you just need adapters for Contax or Mamyia
I will be checking other Leica lenses, as telephoto is my interest even if it vignettes. Hell, where else can you get 40 MP for a Leica telephoto?
I don't do Canon and frankly the idea of putting a canon lens on a $50k camera (incl back of course) just boggles my mind. but what do old farts know (67 and counting!)
Victor
While I agree on the wide side, I would say that most lenses longer than 100mm from Canon are as good as anything else in 35mm
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I am underwhelmed by this camera. Why not put the 17mm TS on a 5D MK II or 1DS III instead? Rainer's tests are very impressive ( 17tse compared with 23HR). I'm not convinced that the superior dynamic range and rendering capabilities of an MF chip justify the end result of the Hcam. It seems kind of funny -- mounting a P65+ and a Canon TS onto this thing.
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Sounds wonderful but Michael said it's not for amateurs like me I am sure it will be produced in painfully small quantities and is a device of considerable precision but that's still a lot of euros or dollars for a camera with neither a lens nor a back, nor any movements for standard lenses. I did pay $3k for an Arca Swiss F line view camera, but that had all the tilts and shifts already built in for essentially any lens you could stick on the front, and used lenses could be had for a few hundred $. And they used to make readyloads and quickloads too. Oh well, medium format digital will remain one of those things to fantasize about.
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I may not be in the market for anything close to this product, but I really enjoyed the article.
The images were fantastic, the examples were well done and you have altogether stimulated my interest in the topic. Medium format is neat, and tilts and shifts are fascinating. two of my favorite topics in photography combined.
I especially enjoyed the Conservatory image (figure 11) and Stairs and Figures (figure 12)
Thanks again,
- Michael
(edit: erm.. it appears that there might already be a thread for this in the Large format forum. my apologies, admin feel free to move/delete if needed)
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Canon sure has come a long way with their glass - 2 years ago I would never have guessed I'd be seeing anything canon in front of a p45+.
The camera looks great - hope they do well with it.
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Just interesting about Hartblei, when did it become a German company? As far as I know, this was just a group of people in Kiev, Ukraine, who were "upgrading" and "tuning" Kiev m/f cameras ( http://www.hartblei.com/ (http://www.hartblei.com/) ), something like Arax ( http://araxfoto.com/ (http://araxfoto.com/) ). Nothing special, just artisan undertaking.
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Just interesting about Hartblei, when did it become a German company? As far as I know, this was just a group of people in Kiev, Ukraine, who were "upgrading" and "tuning" Kiev m/f cameras ( http://www.hartblei.com/ (http://www.hartblei.com/) ), something like Arax ( http://araxfoto.com/ (http://araxfoto.com/) ). Nothing special, just artisan undertaking.
"Stefan Steib is the CEO of Hartblei. He is a German photographer and entrepreneur who lives in Munich. Hartblei is a company that has been around for a while, manufacturing camera lenses in the Ukraine, most recently with tilt / shift models using Carl Zeiss manufactured glass and designs." - from the LL review.
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http://luminous-landscape.com/reviews/came...tblei-cam.shtml (http://luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/hartblei-cam.shtml)
Nice review of an interesting product.
It would have been nice to also see results with the Hartblei lenses with Zeiss glass. DigiLloyd speaks extremely highly of them on the d3x, best bokeh of any lens it seems.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Interesting that no-one has mentioned the Sinar M system, which already does this trick (albeit it only with Nikon lenses, not Canon afaik:
http://www.sinar.ch/en/products/shutters/177-sinar-m (http://www.sinar.ch/en/products/shutters/177-sinar-m)
(http://www.dcviews.com/press/images/Sinar-m-System.jpg)
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Immensely interesting camera and review.
I wonder if the 35mm super-teles have equally large image circles, like their large-format counterparts.
Is there any compatible film back? Hasselblad A12 would need a film transport mechanism.
Pedro
I have a Novoflex lens, which is non-telephoto, with 640mm and (Leica made) 400mm lens heads.
The diaphragm of this lens is behind the rear element, so I was thinking of mounting a shutter on it and putting it on my P3... but I could put it on the Hartblie... does the 35mm mount vignette with long lenses?
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well I can tell you the Leica R modular doesnt-it is fine on P45+ with 1.1 crop but the P65+ vignettes terribly
Victor
Is the lens image circle that vignettes , or the mount? I am sure my Novoflex lenses will be OK. re image circle.
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I will be seeing this camera in Manchester UK, tomorrow, so if anyone has any questions, ask and I will get back to you.
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So Hartblei, Sinar, Linhof and ALPA are all small enterprises from Munich and Zürich, what great system would it it be if they would work together.
Michael Heinrich
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Why do they not produce a cost-effective version (without motorised slide) for live view?
What about "proper" MF wide angle lenses, like the Schneider Apo-digitars, which are very difficult or impossible to use with cameras like the Sinar P3?
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I will be seeing this camera in Manchester UK, tomorrow, so if anyone has any questions, ask and I will get back to you.
We are going to have the 17TS/E, 24TS/E and 100mm macro Canon lenses on the camera there
Yair
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Interesting that no-one has mentioned the Sinar M system, which already does this trick (albeit it only with Nikon lenses, not Canon afaik:
http://www.sinar.ch/en/products/shutters/177-sinar-m (http://www.sinar.ch/en/products/shutters/177-sinar-m)
(http://www.dcviews.com/press/images/Sinar-m-System.jpg)
That's probably because it only works with Sinar backs? The Old Sinarcam also took Nikon and Hasselblad lenses but it was not portable.
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I dont get the point so far.
Where is the advantage of using a Hartblei with a Canon T/S lens and decreased T/S movements compared to just using a tech camera with a propper MF lens from Schneider or Rodenstock?
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That's probably because it only works with Sinar backs? The Old Sinarcam also took Nikon and Hasselblad lenses but it was not portable.
True, they are not the same. I was just pointing out that using 35mm lenses with a medium format back is far from new.
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Interesting Camera from Hartblei
in line of it
I am still waiting for the camera i can use with
whatever lens i have in combination with whatever digital back i choose
Or is it already there?
I have such beautiful lenses that are now unused...
like the mamiya7 lenses ( no digital solution )
The 4x5 inch lenses from Schneider and Rodenstock
the old pentacon six lenses made bij carl Zeiss DDR...
My nikkor lenses ....etc
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Is the lens image circle that vignettes , or the mount? I am sure my Novoflex lenses will be OK. re image circle.
I am cusious too
I suspect it may actually be the copal shutter opening, since the viewer doesnt vignette as badly as the shot
I am going to sendthe Truewide to Keith to check. I am going to suggest he try to get his hands on the mamyia shutter!
Victor
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While I agree on the wide side, I would say that most lenses longer than 100mm from Canon are as good as anything else in 35mm
I have seen some pretty good shots with long Canon lenses, esp some here with better beamer in wildlife.
However Rod and Schneider make canon wides look like holgas (oops, scratch that, sounds like flaming; how about like a P&S? will that pass? :-)
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I dont get the point so far.
Where is the advantage of using a Hartblei with a Canon T/S lens and decreased T/S movements compared to just using a tech camera with a propper MF lens from Schneider or Rodenstock?
Well perhaps because there is no 24lens with movements from either company ? You know that there is only the R 23HR which covers the P65, nothing else in that range, so if someone needs something wider the HC is an option.
In additon I would have loved to see the Hartblei 40, 85 and 120 T/S lens on thet camera. They are extremely good on the 1DsMk3 and would probably do well on a P65.
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I have seen some pretty good shots with long Canon lenses, esp some here with better beamer in wildlife.
However Rod and Schneider make canon wides look like holgas (oops, scratch that, sounds like flaming; how about like a P&S? will that pass? :-)
Yes especially the nice 24 from Schneider, which even comes with build in dark corners on a P65 :-P
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can someone enlighten me what that viewing hood in the images of the HCam is, and who makes it?
it looks like an image inverter for 645 or 6x9 screens
thanks.
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True, they are not the same. I was just pointing out that using 35mm lenses with a medium format back is far from new.
Sinar had even a mount/adapter for Leica lenses on the Sinarcam, as a stand-alone solution, and that was over 10 years ago.
Best regards,
Thierry
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From what I can see in the examples, the color stays even across the field when the lenses are shifted.
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I dont get the point so far.
Where is the advantage of using a Hartblei with a Canon T/S lens and decreased T/S movements compared to just using a tech camera with a propper MF lens from Schneider or Rodenstock?
It is impossible to mount most very short MFDVC lenses on traditional view cameras... they need to work out how to put a 60Mpx back on a P2 or P3 with very short lenses. (I have worked this out.)
Pros who have MFDVCs want a full range of movements with any lens, and they want fast flash sync for sun synchro with any lens.
With motorised slide, they could use the slide motor for shift or stitch, and it would help (for shift) if you could mount the digiback horizontal or vertical.
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Is the lens image circle that vignettes , or the mount? I am sure my Novoflex lenses will be OK. re image circle.
I am cusious too
I suspect it may actually be the copal shutter opening, since the viewer doesnt vignette as badly as the shot
I am going to send the Truewide to Keith to check. I am going to suggest he try to get his hands on the mamyia shutter!
Victor
When a shutter is attached to the back rather than the lens, you need a shutter opening not much bigger than the diagonal of the sensor, and, if you are using movements, the shutter moves with the back so, for shift (or slide) and stitch you can get a big picture with a relatively small shutter.
I have shutter-free aerial lenses with rear elements about 5 inches across, and the Schneider fine art Gold is only f14 if you have it without a shutter.
What size shutter are you using? (what shutter, number, and what opening?).
The Sinar lensboard shutters open much wider than the diagonal of 6 * 4.5 don"t they?
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Where is the advantage of using a Hartblei with a Canon T/S lens and decreased T/S movements compared to just using a tech camera with a propper MF lens from Schneider or Rodenstock?
Well perhaps because there is no 24lens with movements from either company ? You know that there is only the R 23HR which covers the P65, nothing else in that range, so if someone needs something wider the HC is an option.
The new Schneider 28 has spare image circle for movements, does it not, and with a 6 * 4.5 back and/or slide-and-stich, it would be a very wide lens... if you can find or make a camera with a full range of movements that you can put it on.
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Where is the advantage of using a Hartblei with a Canon T/S lens and decreased T/S movements compared to just using a tech camera with a propper MF lens from Schneider or Rodenstock?
The new Schneider 28 has spare image circle for movements, does it not, and with a 6 * 4.5 back and/or slide-and-stich, it would be a very wide lens... if you can find or make a camera with a full range of movements that you can put it on.
Yes the new schneider, WHEN it comes. However I haven't seen either specs nor a price so far.
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Yes especially the nice 24 from Schneider, which even comes with build in dark corners on a P65 :-P
Christopher
Interesting comment. I have P65+ with 35 Digitar and 47mm Schneider. Thay great-sharp even. What's with the 24? maybe you are NOT talking about the 24mm Digitar. I thought it covered FF (but could not stand shift as well as the 23mm Rodenstock.
Victor
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Anxiously awaiting to pounce on new Schneider 28 for the Arca.
Visual: 28mm = Cute little bunny / CB = Cheetah
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Anxiously awaiting to pounce on new Schneider 28 for the Arca.
Visual: 28mm = Cute little bunny / CB = Cheetah
Yep the new 28mm could be THE thing. Let's wait and see.
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Interesting that no-one has mentioned the Sinar M system, which already does this trick (albeit it only with Nikon lenses, not Canon afaik:
http://www.sinar.ch/en/products/shutters/177-sinar-m (http://www.sinar.ch/en/products/shutters/177-sinar-m)
(http://www.dcviews.com/press/images/Sinar-m-System.jpg)
Graham,
The Nikon Lens adapter for the M camera has been a dead issue for 3 years now. They would not cover the 54H so they were discontinued.
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Well perhaps because there is no 24lens with movements from either company ? You know that there is only the R 23HR which covers the P65, nothing else in that range, so if someone needs something wider the HC is an option.
In additon I would have loved to see the Hartblei 40, 85 and 120 T/S lens on thet camera. They are extremely good on the 1DsMk3 and would probably do well on a P65.
Ok I understand. You gain at the wide end. I am surprized that the Canon 17mm has such a large image circle. It allmost sound slike some magic that they make a 17mm which allows to shift even with a large sensor and Schneider and Rodenstock cant do it. Did I oversee something?
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Ok I understand. You gain at the wide end. I am surprized that the Canon 17mm has such a large image circle. It allmost sound slike some magic that they make a 17mm which allows to shift even with a large sensor and Schneider and Rodenstock cant do it. Did I oversee something?
..... and you might gain lenses as the canon 85/1,2 or other stuff which will look weird and very interesting on a larger sensor ....
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the 28 schneider will have a 90mm image circle at f8 and extremely high resolution of 80 line pairs... let wait to see the distorsion...
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..... and you might gain lenses as the canon 85/1,2 or other stuff which will look weird and very interesting on a larger sensor ....
Over on fredmiranda there was a guy using an FD 85/1,2 on a Mamiya 645 with film. Wild look.
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So if I'm reading the review correctly, shots with the 17mm TS-E have to be cropped to roughly the same FOV as the 24 TS-E due to poor image quality at the edges. So really this camera is a one-trick pony if the 24 TS-E is the only compelling lens for it (and that assumes performance holds up on a full-sized MF sensor).
Giving the pricing, I guess I just don't see the appeal. It seems to me that something like the Arca-Swiss M-Line 2 or even one of the "pancake" cameras with a tilt adapter would make a lot more sense. Yes 24mm is wide, but how often do you need to go that wide, to justify buying a new camera just for 24mm (especially if the upcoming Schneider 28mm delivers on its promises).
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So if I'm reading the review correctly, shots with the 17mm TS-E have to be cropped to roughly the same FOV as the 24 TS-E due to poor image quality at the edges. So really this camera is a one-trick pony if the 24 TS-E is the only compelling lens for it (and that assumes performance holds up on a full-sized MF sensor).
Giving the pricing, I guess I just don't see the appeal. It seems to me that something like the Arca-Swiss M-Line 2 or even one of the "pancake" cameras with a tilt adapter would make a lot more sense. Yes 24mm is wide, but how often do you need to go that wide, to justify buying a new camera just for 24mm (especially if the upcoming Schneider 28mm delivers on its promises).
Agreed. I think the HCam is preposterous. I wonder how reliable the motor would be over a five year period.
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To me it still looks more like an experimentel camera, like checking out if something is possible or not.
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To me it still looks more like an experimentel camera, like checking out if something is possible or not.
There are some good features:
Focal plane shutter for almost any lens/back combination... but I can do that more cost-effectively with leaf shutters.
Adaptor for almost any lens/back combination... but if I wanted to put my Hasselblad V lenses on my Hasselblad H back, I would want movements.
Super-wide capability, but without movements for Apo-digitar lenses... the Schneider 28 would be cheaper (I expect) but would it go on a Sinar P2 with movements?
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Stefan, CEO Hartblei was at Manchester today.
He said that he makes cameras to users' requirements.
I told him that lenses with rear elements several inches from the canon lens mount would vignette... and he said that if anyone needed a bigger hole in the front of the camera, he would do it for them, or make a version for view cameras.
(I have two aerial lenses and two Novoflex lenses with rear elements inches or feet from the camera, and no shutter)
We also discussed a simpler version for cameras with live view.
Michael might prefere me not to mention it, but the Mamiya shutter on the Hartblei would not work today!!!
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Michael might prefere me not to mention it, but the Mamiya shutter on the Hartblei would not work today!!!
No product is trade show proof.
Michael
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Interesting that no-one has mentioned the Sinar M system, which already does this trick (albeit it only with Nikon lenses, not Canon afaik:
http://www.sinar.ch/en/products/shutters/177-sinar-m (http://www.sinar.ch/en/products/shutters/177-sinar-m)
(http://www.dcviews.com/press/images/Sinar-m-System.jpg)
Sinar M
Cambo Mini-Wide
Kapturegroup Truewide
DigiFlex I/II
All of these did facilitate using digibacks with 35mm lenses. I have used 3 of them already 4 years ago. I still sometimes use the Digiflex II. Nothing new under the sun, not even the knowledge about the actual image circle of 35mm lenses.
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Sinar M
Cambo Mini-Wide
Kapturegroup Truewide
DigiFlex I/II
All of these did facilitate using digibacks with 35mm lenses. I have used 3 of them already 4 years ago. I still sometimes use the Digiflex II. Nothing new under the sun, not even the knowledge about the actual image circle of 35mm lenses.
I think the Nikon module was announced a long ago, but still not available for the Sinar M.
How do you attach 35mm Nikon lenses to Sinar M?
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I think the Nikon module was announced a long ago, but still not available for the Sinar M.
How do you attach 35mm Nikon lenses to Sinar M?
The Nikon module for the M was short lived as I understand. I have seen several for sale years ago. Actually as I mentioned I have used 3 out of 4 the M not being one of them. Lovely system but way above my comfort level of price/value ratio.