Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Digital Cameras & Shooting Techniques => Topic started by: MichaelY on June 01, 2004, 02:47:44 am
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[font color=\'#000000\']there is no downside, format as often as you like[/font]
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[font color=\'#000000\']Thanks Tim, that's useful information re: the IDE vs. CF bit.[/font]
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[font color=\'#000000\'] If you had a garage full of widgets and you could sell some for $40, or you could sell them elsewhere for $400, which would you prefer?[/font]
[font color=\'#000000\']If I could sell them at $40 and make a profit, I'd do so. To sell the same item to someone else for $400 would be immoral, unless of course I'm on a Robin Hood crusade to rob the rich to help the poor.
There should be an investigation into such practices. Do you not have 'fair trading' watchdogs in the USA? :)[/font]
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[font color=\'#000000\']I've known a person who never formated their card had it go from 256 to 26mb in size. An extream example but never-the-less possible. A quick format brought the card to it's full capacity.[/font]
[font color=\'#000000\']Well here's another person who has never formatted their 1GB microdrive after 11,000 shots over a 3 year period (mostly RAW) and the card still retains its full capacity of 141 images in RAW.[/font]
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[font color=\'#000000\']Sheesh. It's not my opinion, it's fact. If you want evedence then consult those links I provided earlier in the thread. A quick google search will provide you with more sources.
Flash cards and Microdrives use the FAT filing system (FAT, FAT16 or FAT32) created by Microsoft for the IBM PC back in 1980. It's been around for over 20 years and is found in all the millions of personal computers out there (servers and Win XP/2000 use a more stable "spin-off" called NTFS). It's characteristics have been well documented so it should be easy for you to pull up additional information if you're so inclined.[/font]
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[font color=\'#000000\']I format in camera to clear the card as general practice. However, there is one school of thought that claims this somehow slows the initial write times to the card as opposed to the simple detion of files. [/font]
[font color=\'#000000\']I've now adopted the practice of formatting instead of deleting. It's certainly much quicker, although the time saved is not necessarily of practical significance since wiping the whole card is not usually something done whilst anxiously waiting to take the next photo.
Am I now imagining it takes more time to clear the buffer using the 1GB IBM microdrive, because I'm aware of the issue?[/font]
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[font color=\'#000000\']As a new user of the 10d, I have a question regarding CF cards. I would like to know when and how often the cards should be formatted. Thanks in advance for any help.[/font]
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[font color=\'#000000\']I recently noticed something interesting regarding the formatting of three 4GB Hitachi Microdrives which I harvested from $200 Creative Muvo MP3 players. When formatted initially in a 1Ds the drives would be seen as 2GB cards. When re-formatted in an S50 they were recognised as and formatted as 4GB cards. After formatting as 4GB cards in the S50 they are happily recognized as, and happily re-format as, 4GB cards in the 1Ds. Curious, no?
I have heard that Hitachi is now sending Creative a different version of the drive which will not format for use in a camera though I havn't tested this.[/font]
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[font color=\'#000000\']I format in camera to clear the card as general practice. However, there is one school of though that claims this somehow slows the initial write times to the card as opposed to the simple detion of files. Not sure if this is true only for a hard format or for the quick format too and from a proactical standpoint I've never noticed slow write times, so I continue the practice.[/font]
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[font color=\'#000000\']When formatted initially in a 1Ds the drives would be seen as 2GB cards. When re-formatted in an S50 they were recognised as and formatted as 4GB cards. After formatting as 4GB cards in the S50 they are happily recognized as, and happily re-format as, 4GB cards in the 1Ds. Curious, no?[/font]
[font color=\'#000000\']This is due to a bug in the 1.2 firmware of the 1Ds. Version 1.3 fixes this.[/font]
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[font color=\'#000000\']
However, there is one school of though that claims this somehow slows the initial write times to the card as opposed to the simple detion of files.
Naw, that's bunk. CF cards use the very standard FAT file system that has been used for quite some time now in PCs. When you format a card it performs a low-level-format wich wipes out the File Allocation Table (what determins the basic disk structure) and re-writes a new one. Then a High-Level-format takes place and writes the directory structure. Just like simply deleting files, the data is still on the card but there is nothing pointing to where the data is and so the camera/computer writes to it as though nothing exists on the card.
If anything, fomating would speed up initial write times since the camera/computer doesn't first have to find free space to write to. Any difference however would be in the millisecond range.
Refference material:
http://tinyurl.com/2mnsg (http://tinyurl.com/2mnsg)
http://tinyurl.com/2jwjj (http://tinyurl.com/2jwjj)
http://www.google.com (http://www.google.com)
Is there any downside to simply deleting the photos from the CF card instead of reformatting?
Yes, eventually you will collect "slack space" (in this case, errors in the logical structure of the disk) and the useable volume of your CF card will diminish. I've known a person who never formated their card had it go from 256 to 26mb in size. An extream example but never-the-less possible. A quick format brought the card to it's full capacity.[/font]
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[font color=\'#000000\']It's characteristics have been well documented so it should be easy for you to pull up additional information if you're so inclined.[/font]
[font color=\'#000000\']Easy to pull up information. Not easy to pull up relevant information. A search of Google reveals lots of problems various people have encountered when attempting to format flash cards on various devices, and largely unanswered questions regarding whether or not it's better to delete files in-camera or re-format the card.
All the cards I use, CF type l and ll, were factory formatted. It seems a fair assumption that occasionally re-formating the card might keep it out of trouble. On the other hand, for all I know, it might be the case that the initial factory format is the most reliable format and that unnecessary formatting of the card might serve no purpose. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.[/font]
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Am I now imagining it takes more time to clear the buffer using the 1GB IBM microdrive, because I'm aware of the issue?
Probably. A watched pot never boils as they say [/font]
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[font color=\'#000000\']I've used Canon DSLRs for several years. Whenever I copy images from my CF card to my hard drive, I insert the CF card back in the camera and format it. It's quicker than deleting all the images, and it ensures I have a "fresh" format. I see absolutely no downsides to this procedure.
Enjoy!
-- Jim[/font]
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[font color=\'#000000\']Is there any downside to simply deleting the photos from the CF card instead of reformatting? (I've finally found where the Delete command is in my camera's overly-extensive menu system, and not sure I could find the Format command again :p )
Lisa[/font]
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[font color=\'#000000\']Market economy, Ray. If you had a garage full of widgets and you could sell some for $40, or you could sell them elsewhere for $400, which would you prefer?[/font]
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[font color=\'#000000\']Fair trade in the US is typically to encourage competition. Price fixing and monopolys are no-no's.
If someone sells a product for a 10x mark up on their own, that is ok. It is their own risk that they will not sell any at that high mark up. Some companies do this on the basis of brand recognition, or some perception of quality on the part of the consumer and still make a profit.
If a group of companies all agrees to sell for a 10x mark up so they can all make more money, that is not considered fair trade. Buying all of the companies that make the same product and marking it up 10x would not be considered fair trade either. These examples remove the market from the equation, and violate anti-trust legislation.[/font]
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[font color=\'#000000\']Granted it is possable to not have any troubles at all just as it is with a hard-drive.[/font]
[font color=\'#000000\']I'm not sure it is possible to not have any troubles at all if you don't defragment your hard drive now and again. If you keep adding and deleting files, then inevitably the data becomes fragmented and your drive slows down - guaranteed, I believe.
But generally, people don't use their flash cards and micro drives like hard drives. At least I[/i] don't use my memory cards as permanent storage devices, only partially deleting data before adding new data.
Clearly, if formatting the card is a quicker process than deleting a whole bunch of images, then that's sufficient reason for me to start formatting.[/font]
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[font color=\'#000000\']That's true too, but that's not the point. The point is reducing the chance of something going wrong. I believe that's understandable enough without the need to nit-pick minute detials.
The issue does not revolve around how the drive is used. It is the simple use of the drive that can cause data corruption. Formating regularly reduces the chance of bad things happening.[/font]
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[font color=\'#000000\']I think that formatting a CF card in device A, but using it in device B, could (rarely) lead to problems. If the two devices don't share *exactly* the same definition for how-to-format the card, problems could creep in.
I have had no problems formatting cards inside my 1Ds. The camera "knows" what it expects in terms of a formatted card, and has never produced corruption of any kind.
Cards formatted in my 1Ds have also *never* failed to read correctly with my Macintosh.
And, as I mentioned earlier, I choose to format my CF card every time I'm ready to re-use it, after having saved my images to my hard drives. By doing this, I ensure that each time I start a shooting session, my 1Ds has removed all possible "unknowns" about the state of the CF card.
It's what has worked (flawlessly) for me.
Enjoy!
-- Jim[/font]
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[font color=\'#000000\']Remember that at least in the Canon 10D reformating deletes all images including the protected ones while erasing deletes only the unprotected images.
Keep that in mind and be sure not to loose protected wanted images.
A word to the wise...[/font]
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[font color=\'#000000\']yes, format in camera. This isn't a deep format and the attendant extended read/write cycles.[/font]
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[font color=\'#000000\']I have heard that Hitachi is now sending Creative a different version of the drive which will not format for use in a camera though I havn't tested this.[/font]
[font color=\'#000000\']Current wisdom is that Hitachi have replaced a controller chip making the drive IDE, not CF - so any camera looking for CF won't find it. Doesn't appear to be a software hack. The new models apparently have a disclaimer on the package that the unit won't work in digital cameras. I've got one in transit so I'll see if I get the good version or the new version.[/font]
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[font color=\'#000000\']Current wisdom is that Hitachi have replaced a controller chip making the drive IDE, not CF - so any camera looking for CF won't find it. Doesn't appear to be a software hack. The new models apparently have a disclaimer on the package that the unit won't work in digital cameras. I've got one in transit so I'll see if I get the good version or the new version.[/font]
[font color=\'#000000\']If Hitachi can make a 4gb CF card at such a low price to be included in a $200 MP3 player, why are they ripping off owners of digital cameras? Or to put it another way, why are owners of digital cameras expected to pay for the development costs of this hardware and subsidise junk music listeners?[/font]
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[font color=\'#000000\'] If you had a garage full of widgets and you could sell some for $40, or you could sell them elsewhere for $400, which would you prefer?
If I could sell them at $40 and make a profit, I'd do so. To sell the same item to someone else for $400 would be immoral, unless of course I'm on a Robin Hood crusade to rob the rich to help the poor.
There should be an investigation into such practices. Do you not have 'fair trading' watchdogs in the USA? [/font]
[font color=\'#000000\']We have Capitalism. Market driven pricing -- supply and demand. It isn't always perfect and it can be impure (monopoly, government controls, taxation policy, offshore dumping, etc.), but in general, is it a satisfactory underpinning of our society.
Let the buyer beware! I sort of like the idea of voting with my wallet.[/font]
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[font color=\'#000000\']
Easy to pull up information. Not easy to pull up relevant information. ...and largely unanswered questions regarding whether or not it's better to delete files in-camera or re-format the card.
It doesn't matter if you are using a Microdrive, a flash card of any type, a hard drive, or are recording to a bannana peel. The FAT filing system works the same.
A search of Google reveals lots of problems various people have encountered when attempting to format flash cards on various devices
Any troubles in that area are from either, 1) a poorly engineered device or 2) using a card across devices wich use different versions of the FAT file system as jwarthman mentioned. A device that uses at most FAT16 won't reconize a card formated in FAT32 but the device that uses FAT32 can read/write to a card formated in FAT16.
Most devices format in FAT32 anymore due to the size of flash cards these days. Any card 16mb or smaller must be FAT12, FAT16 can go up to 2GB and anything above 2GB is FAT32 (source (http://www.microsoft.com/resources/documentation/WindowsServ/2003/all/techref/en-us/Default.asp?url=/resources/documentation/windowsServ/2003/all/techref/en-us/W2K3TR_FAT_how.asp)). It's common practice to limit FAT16 to 512mb cards or smaller due to space savings using FAT32.
Furthermore, just about any computer running can reconize and read a device formated in the FAT file system. The only limit here is the way it's connected to the computer.
it might be the case that the initial factory format is the most reliable format and that unnecessary formatting of the card might serve no purpose.
Any formating you perform to the card is no different than the formatting done at the factory.[/font]
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[font color=\'#000000\']Granted it is possable to not have any troubles at all just as it is with a hard-drive. Also just like a HD, it's wise to perform maintenence regularly to keep things running smoothly. I Perhaps should have stated it's a possability you will gain slack space. Not a garantee. Nor is is a garantee you'll have no troubles by not formating regularly.
Also it's a possability that the chance you will get corrupted data will drastically increase by not formating. This is a greater possability than the slack space issue. Corrupted FAT and/or fragmented data can equal bye-bye-picture.
Even though it's possable to not have any troubles, it's just not worth risking. Considering how fast formating is and how little effort it takes to do, it's just silly to not format regularly.[/font]
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[font color=\'#000000\']The issue does not revolve around how the drive is used. It is the simple use of the drive that can cause data corruption. Formating regularly reduces the chance of bad things happening.[/font]
[font color=\'#000000\']Well, if you say so :) . I have no evidence that this is true, other than your opinion. Is this advice from the manufacturers of flash cards and micro drives, or is it just a general deduction of yours based on anecdotal evidence?[/font]