Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: narikin on October 05, 2009, 03:45:31 pm
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does anyone know of a device to lock an MF lens to the tripod?
I am using a shift lens, and am more interested in locking that and having the camera+back move, than the lens, for perfect stitching?
perhaps some kind of ring or locking lens collar with a tripod screw?
like a Hassy speed focus grip to have a tripod bush?
I see thats what Alpa do with their 'stitching adapter' for the Max, to make the lens movements work for the back alone.
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does anyone know of a device to lock an MF lens to the tripod?
I am using a shift lens, and am more interested in locking that and having the camera+back move, than the lens, for perfect stitching?
perhaps some kind of ring or locking lens collar with a tripod screw?
like a Hassy speed focus grip to have a tripod bush?
I see thats what Alpa do with their 'stitching adapter' for the Max, to make the lens movements work for the back alone.
The simple answer is to use a view camera with a full range of movements, so you can set front movements for plane of sharpest focus adjustments, then leave the lens in place an use the rear movements (or a stitching back) for stitching.
If you use rear tilt or yaw, using rear shift for stitching will result in loss of focus.
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The simple answer is to use a view camera with a full range of movements,
Not so simple if you have a Medium format camera and Medium format shift lens as outlined by the original poster.
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@Narikin
I don´t know a device for any other shift and tilt gear (there is not that much BTW)
but our Hartblei-CAM certainly does exactly what you want.
http://hartblei.de/en/hartbleicam1.htm (http://hartblei.de/en/hartbleicam1.htm)
Greetings from Munich
Stefan Steib
does anyone know of a device to lock an MF lens to the tripod?
I am using a shift lens, and am more interested in locking that and having the camera+back move, than the lens, for perfect stitching?
perhaps some kind of ring or locking lens collar with a tripod screw?
like a Hassy speed focus grip to have a tripod bush?
I see thats what Alpa do with their 'stitching adapter' for the Max, to make the lens movements work for the back alone.
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does anyone know of a device to lock an MF lens to the tripod?
I am using a shift lens, and am more interested in locking that and having the camera+back move, than the lens, for perfect stitching?
perhaps some kind of ring or locking lens collar with a tripod screw?
like a Hassy speed focus grip to have a tripod bush?
I see thats what Alpa do with their 'stitching adapter' for the Max, to make the lens movements work for the back alone.
What lens are you using?
Since TS lenses rotate around its axis to provide for different shift directions, it's not possible to mount a tripod collar onto greater portion of the barrel, as that would hinder shift capabilities. It would be possible to fix it closer to the mount, on the portion of the barrel that doesn't rotate, but generally there's very limited space. With the Canon TS-E 24mm it's not possible at all, as a tripod collar would block the rotate release mechanism. I've not handled Mamiya's and Pentax's shift lenses, but I assume the problem is similar.
EDIT: Nevermind what I've said ... putting the tripod collar closer to the mount wouldn't change a thing. And if fixed on the rest of the barrel, you wouldn't be able to get the camera straight in portrait or landscape orientation if shifting diagonally.
Pedro
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perhaps some kind of ring or locking lens collar with a tripod screw?
like a Hassy speed focus grip to have a tripod bush?
The only shifting MF lens I know of is the Russian Vodka lens, in 45 and 65. I used to own them, but can't remember if it would work.
I understand what you're thinking, I was gonna do it to my Canon 45 and 24 TS. But I was gonna LiquidNail a big blob of goop onto the square casing of the lens, and then squish a RRS camera plate to the blog of goo.
It would kinda wreck the resale value, unless you stuck a Red Dot on it, but it would work great for actually taking photographs.
I'm just not sure it would work with your Stoli lens or not.
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does anyone know of a device to lock an MF lens to the tripod?
I am using a shift lens, and am more interested in locking that and having the camera+back move, than the lens, for perfect stitching?
perhaps some kind of ring or locking lens collar with a tripod screw?
like a Hassy speed focus grip to have a tripod bush?
I see thats what Alpa do with their 'stitching adapter' for the Max, to make the lens movements work for the back alone.
If you're using a Arca-style quick release, you can just move the camera in-between shots and you get the same net effect. IE when shifting the lens 10mm to the left, move the camera 10mm to right and the lens ends up being stationary. It would be nice if T/S lenses had tripod mounts, but since they don't this is the best workaround I've found short of getting a view camera.
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The only shifting MF lens I know of is the Russian Vodka lens, in 45 and 65.
Mamiya used to have a 50mm shift for their 645 system that is regularly available used
as well as a 75mm shift that is still listed as available for their RZ cameras
http://www.mamiya.com/rz67-pro-iid-lenses-...f4.5-shift.html (http://www.mamiya.com/rz67-pro-iid-lenses-75mm-f4.5-shift.html)
Maybe you could customize a tripod mount collar for something like one of the
Canon long lenses. I know most detach and if the outside diameter of your lens fits inside the collar
you could get it shimmed to hold tight
You could also look at Kirk collars to see if anything is adaptable
http://www.kirkphoto.com/Lens_Collars.html (http://www.kirkphoto.com/Lens_Collars.html)
Mark
www.marktomalty.com
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Nodal Ninja offers a couple of lensrings with Arca Swiss base. That could be a valid solution. If you can't find a suitable lensring for your lens contact them, they are very flexible.
http://nodalninja.com/products/panoheads/ultimate.html (http://nodalninja.com/products/panoheads/ultimate.html)
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What lens are you using?
Since TS lenses rotate around its axis to provide for different shift directions, it's not possible to mount a tripod collar onto greater portion of the barrel, as that would hinder shift capabilities.
Pedro
I thought that T/S lenses rotated to allow you to tilt in all directions, and Narikin is talking about shift only, so it might be possible (subject to weight/strength restrictions) to mount a tripod adaptor on a jubilee clip or a filter ring.
As OP has a MF back, a view camera is a possibility...
(but I think that most of the awful modern view cameras have no rear movements, and would not move the back relative to the tripod mount... this would not leave the lens/subject position unchanged as required)
... but Narikin is looking for a cost effective solution using an existing shift lens.
Even Sinar P2's are less than £1,000 so the cheaper Sinars without geared movements would be affordable to most MFers.
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I think that most of the awful modern view cameras have no rear movements, and would not move the back relative to the tripod mount... this would not leave the lens/subject position unchanged as required
most of the awful modern view cameras have rear movements. They are indeed even so awful that the rear standard is fixed relative to the film plane (to avoid disalignement) whilst you can move (shift) the back within the the image circle of the lens. So the modern view cameras mostly offer shift movements on the rear and tilt/swing movements on the lens. This applies to Alpa, Cambo, Arca Swiss. The arTec has vertical shift on the lens and lateral shift on the rear.
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All New Hartblei "Optics by Carl Zeiss" Lenses are offering this capability.
The 40 mm has it built in and the 80mm and 120mm Makro have a tripod clamp:
http://hartblei.de/en/sr40if.htm (http://hartblei.de/en/sr40if.htm)
http://hartblei.de/en/stitchclamp.htm (http://hartblei.de/en/stitchclamp.htm)
http://hartblei.de/en/hartbleicam3.htm (http://hartblei.de/en/hartbleicam3.htm)
Greetings from Munich
Stefan Steib
What lens are you using?
Since TS lenses rotate around its axis to provide for different shift directions, it's not possible to mount a tripod collar onto greater portion of the barrel, as that would hinder shift capabilities. It would be possible to fix it closer to the mount, on the portion of the barrel that doesn't rotate, but generally there's very limited space. With the Canon TS-E 24mm it's not possible at all, as a tripod collar would block the rotate release mechanism. I've not handled Mamiya's and Pentax's shift lenses, but I assume the problem is similar.
EDIT: Nevermind what I've said ... putting the tripod collar closer to the mount wouldn't change a thing. And if fixed on the rest of the barrel, you wouldn't be able to get the camera straight in portrait or landscape orientation if shifting diagonally.
Pedro
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most of the awful modern view cameras have rear movements. They are indeed even so awful that the rear standard is fixed relative to the film plane (to avoid disalignement) whilst you can move (shift) the back within the the image circle of the lens. So the modern view cameras mostly offer shift movements on the rear and tilt/swing movements on the lens. This applies to Alpa, Cambo, Arca Swiss. The arTec has vertical shift on the lens and lateral shift on the rear.
Having a fixed rear standard (no rear tilt/swing) might be ideal for using rear shift for stitching, but "less than ideal" for Landscape photographers who want to creatively adjust/control perspective, e.g. to make a hill look steeper and higher than it is... and not just by aligning the film plane with the tripod head before they start adjusting camera movements.
... so the awful modern view cameras do not have a full range of movements front and back, and you cannot use rise and fall on the ArTec for multi-row panos?
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Having a fixed rear standard (no rear tilt/swing) might be ideal for using rear shift for stitching
yes
but "less than ideal" for Landscape photographers who want to creatively adjust/control perspective
isn't tilt/swing on the lens appropriate to do that?
so the awful modern view cameras do not have a full range of movements front and back
my reading is that with digital backs tilt/swing movements on the rear standard are critical as it is hard to adjust the rear standard accurate in zero position (straight parallel). Tolerances have to be within 1/100mm or so. Even the Linhof Techno has an inflexible rear standard (shift yes, tilt/swing no). But I only conclude this from hearsay and articles ... me personally I only know cameras with a fixed rear standard for flat shift/stitching (I for myself use a Cambo WRS).
you cannot use rise and fall on the ArTec for multi-row panos?
you can but you have to combine lens shift and back shift if you want to stitch more than 2 captures. IMO the arTec has a different approach as it it focussed on the needs of architectural photographers. And regarding stitching it is more designed as to stitch 2 captures with the back turned vertical (in this case the lens can stay in the same position). Multi row stitching is probably not the priority for this camera however you can do it if you shift the lens and the back. A good merger software will do the rest...
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A fixed rear standard is
"less than ideal" for Landscape photographers who want to creatively adjust/control perspective
isn't tilt/swing on the lens appropriate to do that?
Generally tilt/swing on the lens is for control over the position of the plane of sharpest focus, and on the rear it controls perspective (perspective is more than viewpoint with a view camera)
my reading is that with digital backs tilt/swing movements on the rear standard are critical as it is hard to adjust the rear standard accurate in zero position (straight parallel). Tolerances have to be within 1/100mm or so.
Tolerances are tight for focus and alignment on wide angle lenses, but I think you are reading manufacturers' excuses for not providing a full set of movements.
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Generally tilt/swing on the lens is for control over the position of the plane of sharpest focus, and on the rear it controls perspective (perspective is more than viewpoint with a view camera)
makes sense.
Tolerances are tight for focus and alignment on wide angle lenses, but I think you are reading manufacturers' excuses for not providing a full set of movements.
that might be right. But I've heard of alignement problems (yes, with wide angles) from photographers as well, not only from the manufacturers. Well, whatever :-)
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thanks for all the advice.
yes it was just for use with a simple SHIFT lens, not TILT-SHIFT. (examples are the Mamiya 50mm shift, and the Arsat shift 55mm, among others)
the idea being: lock the lens to a tripod then using the shift mechanism would move the camera body and back, for parallax free stitching.
(side thought: would camera shake be magnified, even with MU)
thanks for the Kirk lens collar link - that looks perfect if you are lucky enough to find a matching lens diameter at the right point on your MF shift lens.
ditto nodal ninja - looks a good product, but based mostly on fisheyes
Interesting that Hartblei have put tripod mount on their newest line - obviously thinking the same thing.
also like the economic idea of shifting the lens 10mm one way, then moving camera on its Arca plate 10mm the other - nice n simple if you can get it right
as a related note: are people finding lens-shift stitching noticeably worse than parallax free back-shift stitches, when all is said and done?
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I thought that T/S lenses rotated to allow you to tilt in all directions, and Narikin is talking about shift only, so it might be possible (subject to weight/strength restrictions) to mount a tripod adaptor on a jubilee clip or a filter ring.
Dick, a T/S barrel rotates to allow changing the direction of both tilt and shift. The same applies to lenses that can only shift (old Nikon F, Olympus OM, Mamiya and Pentax 67). Else you would only be able to shift in only one direction (i.e. only rise and fall, no horizontal shifts, or vice-versa). To get both, you have to rotate the barrel to a diagonal position. I haven't seen a lens that provides independent X and Y-axis shift knobs.
The Mamiya 645 50mm F/4 Shift uses a ring to determine de rotation angle. A tripod collar can only be fitted near the outer barrel, at the end of the lens (not ideal, as you might have stability problems). The rest of the space is occupied by the focusing and aperture rings, and shift knob. Even it the collar could be fitted, you'd have to first compose the scene, then mount the collar to the lens ... hardly practical. If you mount the collar first, any rotation of the barrel would throw the camera off a perpendicular position (you'll have crooked horizons). This is only practical if you only do rise-fall along one axis, leaving the rotate-barrel ring alone.
I'm not sure if I was successful at explaining this, but one only has to pickup a camera and lens to see these limitations.
Pedro
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<<< To get both, you have to rotate the barrel to a diagonal position. I haven't seen a lens that provides independent X and Y-axis shift knobs.<<<<
Pedro
Hartblei has done this as a world first unique feature see here:
http://hartblei.de/en/sr40if.htm (http://hartblei.de/en/sr40if.htm)
our 80 and 120mm can do the same with the dedicated tripod clamp.
Greetings from Munich
Stefan Steib
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<<< To get both, you have to rotate the barrel to a diagonal position. I haven't seen a lens that provides independent X and Y-axis shift knobs.<<<<
Pedro
Hartblei has done this as a world first unique feature see here:
http://hartblei.de/en/sr40if.htm (http://hartblei.de/en/sr40if.htm)
our 80 and 120mm can do the same with the dedicated tripod clamp.
Greetings from Munich
Stefan Steib
Stefan - what are your options for Mamiya users?
you seem to have everything on there except Mamiya?!
either the 40mm or 80mm
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"I am using a shift lens, and am more interested in locking that and having the camera+back move, than the lens, for perfect stitching?"
I use my T/S lenses for stitching on a normally mounted Canon for clients many times a week. The parallax problems created by even full shifts are so minor that even Photomerge in CS4 has no problem stitching exposures. I don't get the need to shift the body. Is this a specific problem with MF?
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We do a 45mm Superrotator exclusively for PhaseOne.
If you are interested in the product please contact the according P1 dealer close to you.
greetings from Munich
Stefan
Stefan - what are your options for Mamiya users?
you seem to have everything on there except Mamiya?!
either the 40mm or 80mm