Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Digital Cameras & Shooting Techniques => Topic started by: narikin on August 19, 2009, 09:27:40 am
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canon have announced the G11 and the S90.
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0908/09081908canong11.asp (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0908/09081908canong11.asp)
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0908/09081907canons90.asp (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0908/09081907canons90.asp)
it appears the S90 has the exact same sensor, a faster (f2.0) lens, and shoots RAW.
other than easier manual controls (and build quality) on the G11, it seems the smaller S90 is the more interesting pocketable solution of the two
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canon have announced the G11 and the S90.
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0908/09081908canong11.asp (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0908/09081908canong11.asp)
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0908/09081907canons90.asp (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0908/09081907canons90.asp)
If I am not mistaken, this is the first time that a brand decides to release a new model with significantly less megapixels than the camera is replaces.
Way to go Canon.
Since I gave my G10 to my wife, I guess that the G11 is on my shopping list.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Both look interesting. I like the pixel-restraint: 10MP on the same size 1/1.7 sensor that was in the G10.
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canon have announced the G11 and the S90.
it appears the S90 has the exact same sensor, a faster (f2.0) lens, and shoots RAW.
What is really newsworthy about these two is that Canon has dropped the pixel count of its top-of-the-line compacts! The G11 and S90 have a new 10MP 1/1.7" sensor, whereas the G10 had a 14.7MP sensor of the same size. And of course, with this Canon is pushing improved dynamic range, and also a mode to help avoid blown highlights. Perhaps the Panasonic LX3 with its 10MP 1/1.63" sensor has created a new category at the top of the fixed lens compact camera market for better "per pixel" specs (even if "per image" quality is not improved!).
Though the S90 lens is faster at the wide end (f/2 vs f/2.8), the G11 lens is faster at the long end (f/4.5 at 30.5mm true focal length vs f/4.9 at 22.5mm) so combined with the greater maximum focal length, the G11 is probably faster at equal focal lengths over most of the telephoto range, where speed is probably most important. And the G11 has a hot-shoe and articulated LCD, while the S90 weighs far less and might fit into a pants pocket for those who care about that ... so each has its advantages.
Aside: an interesting coincidence is that the G11 without battery but with lens weighs exactly the same 355g as the E-P1 without lens but with battery and with a sensor of about five times the area. For me, the far larger sensor and low-light advantage of the E-P1 is worth the modest increase in weight and size, but I will not claim that everyone will make the same trade-offs as me; I am sure the G11 will sell well.
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Aside: an interesting coincidence is that the G11 without battery but with lens weighs exactly the same 355g as the E-P1 without lens but with battery and with a sensor of about five times the area. For me, the far larger sensor and low-light advantage of the E-P1 is worth the modest increase in weight and size, but I will not claim that everyone will make the same trade-offs as me; I am sure the G11 will sell well.
agree, fair points, I prefer the E-P1 sensor, but Olympus dont seem to have the controls/ AF/ shutter lag/ burst worked out at all, (lots of complaints on that) whereas Canon has all that brilliantly sorted in the G series.
shame you can't have the best of both worlds.
personally I'm disappointed its not a physically bigger size CMOS sensor in the G11.
there were rumors of a Canon GX with just that, but I guess they belong in the bin marked Unicorns and Mermaids.
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personally I'm disappointed its not a physically bigger size CMOS sensor in the G11.
there were rumors of a Canon GX with just that, but I guess they belong in the bin marked Unicorns and Mermaids.
We have been hearing speculations of sensor upsizing in fixed lens compacts for years now, but it all seems like wishful thinking. What we have actually got from the major camera makers (Sigma does not count!) is downsizing from 2/3" to about 1/1.7" as the maximum sensor size, along with overall downsizing of compact camera sensors to 1/2.3" as the now dominant sensor format.
My guess is that sensors larger than those in current high end fixed lens compacts will only succeed if they come with lens options through interchangeable lenses, so Micro Four Thirds, the forthcoming Samsung NX and so on. If either of those "compact interchangeable lens systems" succeeds, as MFT seems to be so far, then Canon, Nikon and others will likely follow.
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canon have announced the G11 and the S90.
Recommended price according to dpreview:
• G11: $499, €589, £569
• S90: $429, €469, £449
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Recommended price according to dpreview:
• G11: $499, €589, £569
• S90: $429, €469, £449
Clearly size rather than price is what makes people choose high end compacts like these over entry level DSLR kits: compare for example the E-520 w/14-42 for $435, or if greater focal length range is desired, the E-520 w/14-42 and 40-150 for $507. Though what the low end of DSLR offerings lacks is modestly priced 4x or 5x standard zooms; 3x zooms rule, for size reasons again I suspect.
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If I am not mistaken, this is the first time that a brand decides to release a new model with significantly less megapixels than the camera is replaces.
Well, Canon couldn't go much higher in megapixel count without intruding on 1Ds3 and 5D2 territory.
Although if Canon had upped the MPs on the G11, I would have loved a 1Ds3 / 5D2 / G11 shootout by Michael. Think of all the $$ and weight we Canon shooters could've saved!
Paul
ps: for the record I own a G10, and I think I'll wait for the G12.
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ps: for the record I own a G10, and I think I'll wait for the G12.
ditto
its just not compelling enough to upgrade, unless you do a lot of low available light shooting.
if you work mostly at base ISO, then the G10 seems a keeper for 2 generations at least
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i still use an s60 infrequently as a pocket camera and the s90 does indeed look interesting - if it only had a viewfinder.
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Well I have a G7, so the G11 is looking like a pretty good upgrade.
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personally I'm disappointed its not a physically bigger size CMOS sensor in the G11.
there were rumors of a Canon GX with just that, but I guess they belong in the bin marked Unicorns and Mermaids.
I'd like that, too, but unfortunately the physical size of the lenses would also have to get bigger. And the G is only a marginally pocketable camera right now. But I think the G11's trading off megapixels for (presumably) cleaner higher ISO perfomance is a step in the right direction.
Paul
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Are they doing lens corrections in camera? Some of the samples look remarkably clean. Could be the lens or they could be automagically cleaning the images.
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Finally, the articulating LCD is back (and it's much bigger). Time to upgrade the old faithful G5. (Should I tell the wife? Hmmmm).
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Does this mean we have reached the end of the pixel wars? Please say yes.
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Does this mean we have reached the end of the pixel wars? Please say yes.
Seems like it ... I hear the same stuff is coming soon in DSLRs ... reduced MP and increased sensitivity/quality ...
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I purchased a G9 a couple of years ago as a camera to have with me when photography was not my primary concern. I did very much like the form factor and handling. What I did not like, to the point that I rarely carry it, was two things. First, as discussed the very poor IQ at anything beyond ISO 80. I certainly hope dropping the MP count will help with this as well as two years of progress in the technology.
The far worse factor was the shutter lag. Often when I'm shooting, the image I wish to capture is fleeting and in most cases proved impossible to get with the G9. It's as if when I press the shutter release the camera treats it as a suggestion that it consider taking the shot. I'm looking forward to seeing the reviews and if this has been addressed in the G11. If so, I'd be very interested.
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I definitely find the S90 form-factor preferable; having something that's truly pocketable is more appealing than the extra zoom range on the G11. What I'm wondering is how similar the performance of these two cameras is in areas that don't really show up on a spec sheet: thinks like shutter lag, AF performance, write time for RAW files, etc.
Anyone else surprised that the video capability is limited to 640x480 on these cameras? Even the $250 Panasonic TZ5 I bought my wife last summer can do 720p.
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Anyone else surprised that the video capability is limited to 640x480 on these cameras? Even the $250 Panasonic TZ5 I bought my wife last summer can do 720p.
Not really. I bet there's quite a bit of head scratching at Canon to figure out what features to include in compacts to avoid cannibalizing their higher-end models. While I'm sure size is at a premium on these products, it's often the case that features get axed or at least reduced to be able to sell different-priced products to consumers with differing spending potential, while keeping the product essentially the same. Sure, the G11 and S90 might look very different, but I bet 90% of the components are exactly the same. And I bet some features are disabled in software. That's why you sometimes see new features in firmware hacks.
The economic term is price discrimination (http://tutor2u.net/economics/revision-notes/a2-micro-price-discrimination.html), which is the wet dream of any finance professional.
As much as I'd like to believe the MP reduction is an end to megapixel wars, it's more likely a result of eating into the sales of low-end dSLRs. Fortunately we'll see the same pixel-binning tech (or whatever they are using) in the next generation of dSLRs.
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I don't see the lack of 720p video on these models as having anything at all to do with DSLR's and their feature sets.
- 720p video has been common in many P&S models for quite some time, well before HD video showed up in DSLR's in fact.
- P&S video doesn't have the shallow DOF that you get with a DSLR and that is so attractive to many
- P&S video doesn't have the high ISO capability or general image quality of a DSLR.
And since these are the top-of-the line P&S models from Canon, this seems like a pretty significant oversight. I can't say that's it's necessarily a feature that I would use a lot, but it might be nice to know that it's there. After all for me a P&S is more for family snapshots and capturing moments, than serious photography.
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the more it settles in the more disappointing the G11 is - its a reduction in MP which is good, BUT without making the sensor any bigger, so they could save money and use the exact same lens/body as the G10.
Canon simply don't seem to get the idea of a pro level p/s, which is shocking when all they need to do is put in one of their class leading larger chips with a good appropriate lens, and that's it.
(ps Canon - it really doesn't need a superzoom - do you really think this is a selling point for pro's?)
the reduction in Mp is a good sign, but sticking with the exact same body/lens/sensor size is not.
thank goodness Panasonic and Olympus are showing us a way forward.
my next pocket camera will be one of theirs
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the more it settles in the more disappointing the G11 is - its a reduction in MP which is good, BUT without making the sensor any bigger, so they could save money and use the exact same lens/body as the G10.
Canon simply don't seem to get the idea of a pro level p/s, which is shocking when all they need to do is put in one of their class leading larger chips with a good appropriate lens, and that's it.
(ps Canon - it really doesn't need a superzoom - do you really think this is a selling point for pro's?)
the reduction in Mp is a good sign, but sticking with the exact same body/lens/sensor size is not.
thank goodness Panasonic and Olympus are showing us a way forward.
my next pocket camera will be one of theirs
Well, maybe a slightly larger sensor would be nice. But I don't want an APS or even 4/3 sensor, because at that point the camera will no longer be pocketable. You need a much bigger lens to produce a big enough image circle to cover the larger image circle. I just don't have any desire at all of a P&S that I can't fit in the pocket of my cargo pants or shorts. Otherwise I'll just use my DSLR.
People ooh and ahh about how the EP-1 is smaller than traditional DSLR's; but put it next to an S90 and suddenly it doesn't look so small.
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The G11 is certainly an impressive P&S. The sample images at http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controll...mpleimages=true (http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&tabact=ModelFeaturesTabAct&fcategoryid=144&modelid=19209&pageno=8&sampleimages=true) look terrific for a P&S camera.
However, the G11 is a rather heavy and bulky P&S. The major flaw in my opinion is its slow continuous frame rate. Long shutter lags and slow frame rates have been the bane of P&S cameras since they first appeared.
I use Photoshop CS3 Extended for my image processing. A couple of exciting features of CS3 Extended, for me, is its ability to stack multiple shots of the same scene and create a composite using only the best pixels from each frame. This has the effect of reducing noise by 1 to 2 stops. The auto-alignment feature of CS3E seems good enough to take care of any slight movement between the hand-held shots of a burst of at least 3 frames per second. My 5D at 3 fps is able to use this feature without tripod.
However, I'd be very dubious about the 1 fps of the G11, hand-held, for either stacking purposes or merging to HDR. If you are carrying a lightweight camera for convenience purposes, it doesn't make much sense to also carry a tripod.
Interestingly, the latest announcement from Ricoh, describes a camera, the CX2, with a frame rate of 5 per second, at full resolution. That would be tremendously useful for me, although I appreciate the fact that probably most people who buy P&S cameras do not then go on to spend even more than their camera cost them, on software to process their images.
I guess one can't have everything. Compromises always have to be made. The maximum quality achievable with the G11, in ideal conditions at base ISO with moderate DR scenes, might well be better than the Ricoh CX2 can produce. Perhaps the Canon lens is better. Also the G11's RAW capability is an advantage for those seeking the maximum quality of which the camera is capable.
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I find the use of a CCD as opposed to CMOS an interesting change. This is reversing the trend. CCD was originally considered a lower noise technology, but lacking in other areas. I'm guessing Canon has pulled out all the stops to produce a very low noise chip, even if it is small.
Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
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Pro is a misused term. It's more correct to say the right tool for the job. I still use my G5 for serious work. It's small, doesn't call attention to itself in concerts or crowds. Shoots raw, and at 5MP, makes suitable 8x10. The articulating screen allows me to shoot hip to over heads. In short, I get the shot with that one. After years of constant use (my wife uses it as the family camera) It's also bullet proof. I'm certain my shutter usage is well into six-figures. Until the announcement of the G11, I have had no need to considering upgrading or replacing. I'm not surprised to read that many others also use the G's for serious or paid work.
Michael, do you have a G11 test on your list of things to do?
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I find the use of a CCD as opposed to CMOS an interesting change. This is reversing the trend.
There is no move back here: the Canon G series has never used CMOS sensors. In fact almost all compacts still use CCD's. The handful of compacts with CMOS sensors so far have rather small sensors, like 1/2.3". Nikon, Pentax and Sony still use CCDs in their lower priced DSLR models too, like brand-new Nikon D3000. Only Canon DSLRs' and FourThirds use CMOS/NMOS sensors exclusively.
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There is no move back here: the Canon G series has never used CMOS sensors. In fact almost all compacts still use CCD's. The handful of compacts with CMOS sensors so far have rather small sensors, like 1/2.3". Nikon, Pentax and Sony still use CCDs in their lower priced DSLR models too, like brand-new Nikon D3000. Only Canon DSLRs' and FourThirds use CMOS/NMOS sensors exclusively.
In fact ... it is the opposite ... there has been a persistent rumor since the G9 that Canon was considering a CMOS-based top of the line G camera.
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In fact ... it is the opposite ... there has been a persistent rumor since the G9 that Canon was considering a CMOS-based top of the line G camera.
How is that the opposite? BJL is correct whether or not canon was considering changing.
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How is that the opposite?
I really don't feel like arguing over nothing ... but I was actually responding to the comment that they had switched from CMOS to CCD, reversing the tread.
A) The potential direction was CCD -> CMOS ... the opposite of CMOS -> CCD
The 'action' take was not a switch, but the opposite - no switch
Ok?
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A rumor being wrong is not a reversal of the trend in sensor choices ... it is not even a reversal of the trend in internet forum rumor accuracy!
Indeed ... another opposite - a trend that continues ...
We are really going in circles.
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Indeed ... another opposite - a trend that continues ...
We are really going in circles.
Weird ... where did that post go?
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agree, fair points, I prefer the E-P1 sensor, but Olympus dont seem to have the controls/ AF/ shutter lag/ burst worked out at all, (lots of complaints on that) whereas Canon has all that brilliantly sorted in the G series.
Unicorns and Mermaids.
Thats not really true. There is no shutter lag on the E-P1, or at least it is as fast as a DSLR. The AF can take a moment, but no longer than the G10 which then adds on shutter lag, and to top things off takes an age to process the image (even with a fast card). In all respects the E-P1 acts like a DSLR aside from focus speed. And if you set focus for the AEL button you have no focus lag, no shutter lag, and can blast away to your hearts content. The difficulty the E-P1 has is that people expect it to be 'like their other camera', and its not, read the instruction book and unlock its potential. As an aside, fit the Panasonic 14-45mm m4/3 lens to the E-P1 and even the 'slow' AF is banished, so its not the E-P1 body that is slow, its the way Olympus have implemented AF on the lenses.
And its going to be a big problem for the G11, the new larger sensor small cameras like the E-P1. I wouldn't be surprised to see the G11 as the last gasp fully functional P&S from Canon as already the S90 looks like a better P&S proposition. There will not be a G12 because it won't sell except to a loyal band of dedicated Canon users. By then the Panasonic GF-1, the Samsung, the Olympus E-P2, plus others, will be on the market, offering better spec, with interchangable lenses, for not much increase in size or weight. They will also cause a drain to the lower end of the DSLR market that the G11 may have once overlapped.
Steve
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Weird ... where did that post go?
Sorry: I deleted it quickly when I realized that I had misunderstood your post, but you must have already replied.
But to recap, I give no credence to "persistent rumors" on the internet when they are not backed by any hint of real evidence.