Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: marcmccalmont on August 02, 2009, 07:27:28 pm
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I am upgrading from a P30 to a P45+ and wondering if moving from a Mamiya AFDII to a view/technical camera and newer digital lenses is worth it for the improvement in image quality?
In landscape and nature photography what improvements would I realize?
I do a fair amount of stitched panos, what camera would you recommend? are front movements important?
Do you have to use a sliding back to focus accurately? if not how do you focus?
What lenses do you prefer? with my P30 I've noticed that I use my 55-110mm more than any other lens.
Thanks
Marc
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I am upgrading from a P30 to a P45+ and wondering if moving from a Mamiya AFDII to a view/technical camera and newer digital lenses is worth it for the improvement in image quality?
In landscape and nature photography what improvements would I realize?
I do a fair amount of stitched panos, what camera would you recommend? are front movements important?
Do you have to use a sliding back to focus accurately? if not how do you focus?
What lenses do you prefer? with my P30 I've noticed that I use my 55-110mm more than any other lens.
Thanks
Marc
The vast majority of our landscape shooters who try a technical camera end up switching.
We'd be happy to help with your evaluation with a free in-person demonstration in Atlanta/Miami or a discounted (and credited-towards purchase) rental anywhere in the US.
Perhaps you might also find this report from Don Libby (Iron Creek Photography) who made this switch (P30+ AFD to a P45+ tech camera): http://www.captureintegration.com/2009/01/...a-users-report/ (http://www.captureintegration.com/2009/01/02/cambo-rs-1000-a-users-report/)
Focus for landscape is generally accomplished by finding your exact hyperfocal point in advance (e.g. 3 meters) and using that focus point the majority of the time.
The final-print edge-to-edge sharpness of the best Schneider and Rodenstock lenses is absolutely outstanding. The wide-angle SLR glass from Contax, Hasselblad, Mamiya/Phase, Canon, Nikon simply cannot compare.
My absolute favorite lens is the Schneider 47mm XL Digitar because of the angle-of-view it produces (my personal aesthetic) and the room it allows for in-the-image-circle-stitching, but there are few "weak" points in this lens series.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:[email protected])
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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The vast majority of our landscape shooters who try a technical camera end up switching.
We'd be happy to help with your evaluation with a free in-person demonstration in Atlanta/Miami or a discounted (and credited-towards purchase) rental anywhere in the US.
Perhaps you might also find this report from Don Libby (Iron Creek Photography) who made this switch (P30+ AFD to a P45+ tech camera): http://www.captureintegration.com/2009/01/...a-users-report/ (http://www.captureintegration.com/2009/01/02/cambo-rs-1000-a-users-report/)
Focus for landscape is generally accomplished by finding your exact hyperfocal point in advance (e.g. 3 meters) and using that focus point the majority of the time.
The final-print edge-to-edge sharpness of the best Schneider and Rodenstock lenses is absolutely outstanding. The wide-angle SLR glass from Contax, Hasselblad, Mamiya/Phase, Canon, Nikon simply cannot compare.
My absolute favorite lens is the Schneider 47mm XL Digitar because of the angle-of-view it produces (my personal aesthetic) and the room it allows for in-the-image-circle-stitching, but there are few "weak" points in this lens series.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:[email protected])
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
I'll PM you
Marc
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but there are few "weak" points in this lens series.
Can you elaborate?
Thanks,
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Can you elaborate?
Thanks,
With the P65 it would be lack of sharpness and detail compared to a lens like the Rodenstock 40HR-W.
small edit: I certainly don't say the 47 is bad. I would just say that with very high res back the Xl series comes to a limit.
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I use a Cambo view camera with my Leaf Aptus7. lenses are the 47mm 90mm and 180mm Schneider Apo Digitar lenses.
Focus is achieved, as it always was on view cameras, via the groundglass. I use a sliding back and simply close down the lens and move the back into the position occupied by the groundglass when focusing and composing. Stitching is very simple and back movements are used as that allows the lens to remain stationary giving a perfect stitch as the viewpoint of the lens does not change. With architecture I find front movements more useful and with landscape I mostly use back movements. There are many ways to do things using view cameras so others may differ in this approach to movements.
The camera and tripod weigh about 20KG (44lb) and I carry it all in a Lowepro backpack. I am 48 and no mountain man but find the camera no problem even over hikes of several hours.
The Schneider lenses are superb, I am sure other manufacturers also make good lenses. The deciding factor for me with the view camera is not the image quality, which is excellent, but the flexibility of the system using movements allowing stitching, control of focus and shapes of objects imaged. The calm thoughtful way of shooting that is promoted using view cameras also appeals to me.
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I use a Cambo view camera with my Leaf Aptus7. lenses are the 47mm 90mm and 180mm Schneider Apo Digitar lenses.
Focus is achieved, as it always was on view cameras, via the groundglass. I use a sliding back and simply close down the lens and move the back into the position occupied by the groundglass when focusing and composing. Stitching is very simple and back movements are used as that allows the lens to remain stationary giving a perfect stitch as the viewpoint of the lens does not change. With architecture I find front movements more useful and with landscape I mostly use back movements. There are many ways to do things using view cameras so others may differ in this approach to movements.
The camera and tripod weigh about 20KG (44lb) and I carry it all in a Lowepro backpack. I am 48 and no mountain man but find the camera no problem even over hikes of several hours.
The Schneider lenses are superb, I am sure other manufacturers also make good lenses. The deciding factor for me with the view camera is not the image quality, which is excellent, but the flexibility of the system using movements allowing stitching, control of focus and shapes of objects imaged. The calm thoughtful way of shooting that is promoted using view cameras also appeals to me.
Which camera (4x5?) and which sliding back do you use?
Marc
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With the P65 it would be lack of sharpness and detail compared to a lens like the Rodenstock 40HR-W.
small edit: I certainly don't say the 47 is bad. I would just say that with very high res back the Xl series comes to a limit.
Truly this is a comparison between an A and an A+; they are both great great lenses by nearly any standard.
The subtlety of English can be hard sometimes
"There are few weak points" vs.
"There are A few weak point"
I meant to say that there are NO poor XL or HR lenses. There are (by definition) some which are slightly better, but any lens in the XL or HR series will be on par with or better than the best lenses of any platform.
As a point of reference on what I mean: the Rodenstock 23mm HR is considered by many to be better than the Schneider 24mm XL lens (larger image circle, no need for Center Filter). It is also three times (or so) the cost. None of this means the 24mm XL a poor lens. The Schneider 24mm XL is a great great lens.
Doug Peterson (e-mail Me) (http://mailto:[email protected])
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870 | Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up (http://www.captureintegration.com/our-company/newsletters/)
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I am upgrading from a P30 to a P45+ and wondering if moving from a Mamiya AFDII to a view/technical camera and newer digital lenses is worth it for the improvement in image quality?
In landscape and nature photography what improvements would I realize?
I do a fair amount of stitched panos, what camera would you recommend? are front movements important?
Do you have to use a sliding back to focus accurately? if not how do you focus?
What lenses do you prefer? with my P30 I've noticed that I use my 55-110mm more than any other lens.
Thanks
Marc
Yes as others have said, the digital specialist lenses will make a big difference, and you will get a further improvement if you shift and stitch. (You can also stitch with a sliding stitching back.)
With shift-and stitch you will get a considerable improvement over pan and stitch, as you do not loose pixels through cropping, and (mostly for shots containing architecture, not including cylindrical pans) you do not loose sharpness by distorting (but some people on this forum might try to persuade you otherwise.)
The normal way to focus with a digital view camera is with live video - do not make the mistake I made buy buying a Hasselblad, for which they have not implemented live view!
Sliding backs (if you can get one that works and focusses correctly) are an alternative, saving the weight of a laptop.
For landscape and nature photography the main advantages of a view camera are through the movements:
Back movements give you perspective control, and front movements allow you to position the plane of sharpest focus, e.g. to enable you to get the foreground in focus in landscapes... this allows you to use a wider aperture to reduce diffraction, and a faster shutter speed for moving objects like people, cars, waves, water, trees in the wind etc.
Buying a view camera is not worth the hassle and expense if you do not make good use of the movements... see Harold Merklinger's "Focusing the View Camera"
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Sliding backs (if you can get one that works and focusses correctly) are an alternative, saving the weight of a laptop.
too, there are solutions with groundglass but no sliding back. you have to remove the groundglass first and replace it with the digiback after composition/focussing.
Back movements give you perspective control, and front movements allow you to position the plane of sharpest focus, e.g. to enable you to get the foreground in focus in landscapes
depends on the camera. E.g. the arTec or the Cambo WRS or the Alpas use front movements for perspective control.
Basically it's the same if you move the lens or the back. For stitching multiple images (more than 2) shift movements on the back and tilt/swing on the lens are better. In any case for use with a digital back a flat rear standard is more accurate.
you do not loose sharpness by distorting (but some people on this forum might try to persuade you otherwise.)
hmh, but you should add that you lose sharpness due to sharpness fall off of the lens with large movements (depending on the lens and the image circle).
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tho_mas,
The front/lens plane does not modify the perspective, only the rear/image plane.
Best regards,
Thierry
... the arTec or the Cambo WRS or the Alpas use front movements for perspective control.
Basically it's the same if you move the lens or the back.
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The front/lens plane does not modify the perspective, only the rear/image plane.
so you shift vertical (rise/fall) with the back? I thought vertical shift is on the front panel and lateral shift is on the rear panel.
So my remembrance seems to be bad :-)
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...use front movements for perspective control.
Basically it's the same if you move the lens or the back. For stitching multiple images (more than 2) shift movements on the back and tilt/swing on the lens are better. In any case for use with a digital back a flat rear standard is more accurate.
If your lens is any where near any part of your subject (for "normal" shift-and-stitch) moving the lens will give you double or multiple images.
you lose sharpness due to sharpness fall off of the lens with large movements (depending on the lens and the image circle).
Yes... this could be a major problem in something like a wedding group shot, where you need edge to edge sharpness, so that you can produce a good portrait of any of the 50? wedding guests from the one picture... and 2 * 2 does not always equal 4, as you lose a bit through overlap, but you lose a great deal less than you would through pan-and-stitch (e.g. if there is a building in the background).
At many weddings there is someone of whom the wedding photographs will be the last photos ever taken of them in their smart clothes.
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so you shift vertical (rise/fall) with the back? I thought vertical shift is on the front panel and lateral shift is on the rear panel.
So my remembrance seems to be bad :-)
If you do not move the lens between exposures, front rise has the same effect as rear fall.
With "proper" full-blown view cameras you get all movements with front and rear standards.
Rise and fall does not affect perspective... it preserves it by making it unnecessary to point the camera (e.g. usually, for architecture) up.
You can use back tilt forwards (or whole camera or rail point down) to falsify perspective, and make a hill look steeper than it is, given enough image circle.
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If you do not move the lens between exposures, front rise has the same effect as rear fall.
With "proper" full-blown view cameras you get all movements with front and rear standards.
Rise and fall does not affect perspective... it preserves it by making it unnecessary to point the camera (e.g. usually, for architecture) up.
You can use back tilt forwards (or whole camera or rail point down) to falsify perspective, and make a hill look steeper than it is, given enough image circle.
Dick
What view camera would you recommend?
Marc
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If you do not move the lens between exposures, front rise has the same effect as rear fall.
yes, that's what I said above.
Rise and fall does not affect perspective... it preserves it by making it unnecessary to point the camera (e.g. usually, for architecture) up.
that's what I'd call perspective control: leveling the camera and composing with back and/or lens shift. apparently a language barrier, sorry
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Dick
What view camera would you recommend?
Marc
I have not had any experience of using any view cameras except Sinar (and the Hasselblad Flexbody) so there are members on this forum better qualified to advise you.
I have a Sinar P3, P2 and P... and I can use the P2 as extension for the P3, and I will need plenty of extension (over a meter) for macro.
The Sinar is a very versatile full-blown monorail system, but it is heavy and bulky and not he ideal camera for back packing, but a P3 (MF) system is very much more compact than the P2 (LF) system.
I am not very familiar with the the choice available in purpose-built Medium Format View Cameras...
The Sinar M is not technically purpose built, as it uses the P3 movements, and is expensive, it is not compatible with all lenses and backs, but it seems to be the camera of choice for most top-end Studio photographers.
Most of the other view cameras have a limited range of movements, and/or are not a great deal lighter.
How much walking/backpacking would you do with the camera?
If you would not make good use of most of the movements, you would not get much benefit from a full blown monorail camera.
What maximum extension will you need?
Many of the compact view cameras only give you about 5 degrees of tilt on the front standard, and you need about 7.5 degrees to get the ground you are standing on, and the distant horizon in focus with a 150 mm lens... and this is the typical landscape situation as I see it. (Most people seem to shoot most landscapes with wide angles, but I keep seeing landscapes for which I would need a 1 degree lens.)
Could others on this forum please advise him what other options are available, and how they compare with the Sinar system?
It is now bedtime in the UK.
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I am not very familiar with the the choice available in purpose-built Medium Format View Cameras...
Could others on this forum please advise him what other options are available
Assuming that the fit of the back will remain Mamiya mount the Sinar arTec unfortunately is not an option. I'd recommend something portable and handy.
Alpa12Max http://www.alpa.ch/index.php?path=products...;detailpage=267 (http://www.alpa.ch/index.php?path=products/cameras&detailpage=267)
rise/fall on the front; lateral shift on the back; there's an adapter so you switch all shift movements on the rear.
No bulit in Tilt/Swing. There's an adapter for Tilt/Swing but limited in use regarding focal lenghts (can't be used wide lenses but I don't know the limit)
no sliding back (AFAIK) (but groundglass)
Cambo WRS http://www.cambo.com/ (http://www.cambo.com/) (products -> Wide RS)
all movements on the rear
no built in Tilt/Swing but you can order lenses in a lenspanel with Tilt/Shift (the T/S adaoter can be used with all Rodenstock HR from 28mm up and all Schneider Digitars from 47mm up)
no sliding back (but groundglass)
Cambo WDS http://www.cambo.com/ (http://www.cambo.com/) (products -> Wide DS)
basically similar to the Alpa Max
Arca Swiss Rm3d:
Built in Tilt/Swing
Sliding back optional
Michael's recent report: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/...arca-rm3d.shtml (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/arca-rm3d.shtml)
Horseman SW-D-II pro http://www.komamura.co.jp/e/digital/SWD2pro.html (http://www.komamura.co.jp/e/digital/SWD2pro.html)
No built in Tilt/Swing
all movements on the rear
no sliding back
And too there are Silvestri and Gottschalt (anyone else?)...
http://www.silvestricamera.com/ (http://www.silvestricamera.com/)
http://gottschalt.de/ (http://gottschalt.de/)
All cameras can be used with Schneider and Rodenstock lenses.
I think you'll find contributions about all these cameras here on the forum.
edit: ah, yes...: the Linhof Techno: http://linhof.de/news-1_e.html (http://linhof.de/news-1_e.html)
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I have not had any experience of using any view cameras except Sinar (and the Hasselblad Flexbody) so there are members on this forum better qualified to advise you.
I have a Sinar P3, P2 and P... and I can use the P2 as extension for the P3, and I will need plenty of extension (over a meter) for macro.
The Sinar is a very versatile full-blown monorail system, but it is heavy and bulky and not he ideal camera for back packing, but a P3 (MF) system is very much more compact than the P2 (LF) system.
I am not very familiar with the the choice available in purpose-built Medium Format View Cameras...
The Sinar M is not technically purpose built, as it uses the P3 movements, and is expensive, it is not compatible with all lenses and backs, but it seems to be the camera of choice for most top-end Studio photographers.
Most of the other view cameras have a limited range of movements, and/or are not a great deal lighter.
How much walking/backpacking would you do with the camera?
If you would not make good use of most of the movements, you would not get much benefit from a full blown monorail camera.
What maximum extension will you need?
Many of the compact view cameras only give you about 5 degrees of tilt on the front standard, and you need about 7.5 degrees to get the ground you are standing on, and the distant horizon in focus with a 150 mm lens... and this is the typical landscape situation as I see it. (Most people seem to shoot most landscapes with wide angles, but I keep seeing landscapes for which I would need a 1 degree lens.)
Could others on this forum please advise him what other options are available, and how they compare with the Sinar system?
It is now bedtime in the UK.
Good morning Dick
I am hesitant to purchase a camera without front tilt and swing like the Cambo wide or the horseman I also don't want to get locked into one manufacturers lenses. So if there was a smaller lighter technical camera with front tilt/swing I would be happy. Perhaps the Cambo wide with the tilt swing lens adapter.?I find I don't care for shooting wide angle lenses to get a wide field of view but prefer stitched panoramas with a normal lens. I've had best luck with the camera in portrait orientation. The wide angle shots make things look so distant that I don't feel like I'm involved in the scene?!?!
Marc
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I have not had any experience of using any view cameras except Sinar (and the Hasselblad Flexbody) so there are members on this forum better qualified to advise you.
I have a Sinar P3, P2 and P... and I can use the P2 as extension for the P3, and I will need plenty of extension (over a meter) for macro.
The Sinar is a very versatile full-blown monorail system, but it is heavy and bulky and not he ideal camera for back packing, but a P3 (MF) system is very much more compact than the P2 (LF) system.
I am not very familiar with the the choice available in purpose-built Medium Format View Cameras...
The Sinar M is not technically purpose built, as it uses the P3 movements, and is expensive, it is not compatible with all lenses and backs, but it seems to be the camera of choice for most top-end Studio photographers.
Most of the other view cameras have a limited range of movements, and/or are not a great deal lighter.
How much walking/backpacking would you do with the camera?
If you would not make good use of most of the movements, you would not get much benefit from a full blown monorail camera.
What maximum extension will you need?
Many of the compact view cameras only give you about 5 degrees of tilt on the front standard, and you need about 7.5 degrees to get the ground you are standing on, and the distant horizon in focus with a 150 mm lens... and this is the typical landscape situation as I see it. (Most people seem to shoot most landscapes with wide angles, but I keep seeing landscapes for which I would need a 1 degree lens.)
Could others on this forum please advise him what other options are available, and how they compare with the Sinar system?
It is now bedtime in the UK.
The Sinar F2 (4x5) (http://www.image2output.com/Product.aspx?id=2394&cat=45)or F3 (100mm) (http://www.image2output.com/Product.aspx?id=1719&cat=45) are the best full movement cameras for landscape/architecture because they are lighter than the P equivants at the expense of a full set of microprecision adjustments. the can use the same lens/bellows/film+digital back systems as the 'P' series
The Sinar arTec (http://www.image2output.com/prodlist.aspx?cat=1649) is the newest development that is highly compact with built in precision side by side stitching and a tilt/rotate system with fine adjustments. the lens must have arTec mounts-it has a range of film/cameraback fittings
The Sinar M (http://www.image2output.com/prodlist.aspx?cat=44) has 2 distict operation modes
1) as an electronic shutter for the p2/p3 systems in a studio
2) as a tripod mounted camera - you can also use a range of hasselblad/nikon lenses with it in this mode.
Edwin
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arTec mounts-it has a range of film/cameraback fittings
are you kidding? which mounts?
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...
And too there are Silvestri and Gottschalt (anyone else?)...
http://www.silvestricamera.com/ (http://www.silvestricamera.com/)
http://gottschalt.de/ (http://gottschalt.de/)
..
edit: ah, yes...: the Linhof Techno: http://linhof.de/news-1_e.html (http://linhof.de/news-1_e.html)
Just a few words on the Silvestri Flexicam
we already discussed the advantages and disadvantages here:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....=23800&st=0 (http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=23800&st=0)
The Flexicam is a mini view camera with bellow focussing. Tilt/swing and horizintal shift on the front element, vertical shift on the back. It takes all mounts, with a V-Mount back you can switch the back alone (of course). With another mount you would have to turn the camera 90°. The back can be mounted via live view adapter or sliding adapter (with specific mounts, they don't have inserts like P1 Flexadapter). All Schneider/Rodenstock lenses can be used up to 105mm. Zeiss Hasselblad lenses can be used via adapter. There is a stitching problem with wide angles lenses like the 35mm, the bellow moves the front standard by 1mm when heavily shifted!
The Linhof Techno seems to be the big brother of the Flexicam, supreme quality it seems, but twice as heavy and (probably) 2x as expensive.
Tom-
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I am upgrading from a P30 to a P45+ and wondering if moving from a Mamiya AFDII to a view/technical camera and newer digital lenses is worth it for the improvement in image quality?
In landscape and nature photography what improvements would I realize?
I do a fair amount of stitched panos, what camera would you recommend? are front movements important?
Do you have to use a sliding back to focus accurately? if not how do you focus?
What lenses do you prefer? with my P30 I've noticed that I use my 55-110mm more than any other lens.
Thanks
Marc
Marc,
I think you will notice the P45 is significantly sharper than the P30. The better the glass the more you will notice as long as your technique is good. There is definitely a learning curve switching from 645 AFD II.
Regardless of wether you use a focus screen or not, you will need to get really good at using your hyperfocal calculations. For most of my landscape images I set f/11, use the hyperfocal scale on the lens then dial it back two stops (f/5.6) to compensate for the difference between the dial which is 4x5 and the P45. If I need closer focusing then I either stop down or shoot multiple focal points and blend in post. I don't use a viewfinder or focus screen, I use a geared head and tweak things taking sample images until I have the composition I am looking for. It sounds difficult but I have found it improves my composition substantially. Once I have what I want I bracket exposures and finally do a lens cast exposure.
The 72mm XL is my favorite followed closely by the 35mm XL then the 24mm XL. I wouldn't call the XL glass anything but excellent and every time I use it the image quality amazes me. Perhaps the HR glass is better, I don't know, but you are talking 3-4x in cost and 2x in weight. The XL glass is designed for pixel densities that would yield a 645 back of 80-90MP.
I use the Cambo WRS and simply love the thing. I do 2 and 3 shot stitching into panoramic format and for that it is perfectly engineered.
Since purchased I use it 90% of the time and my brand new P1 645 sits in it's backpack. Sometimes it is just not convenient to use the Cambo such as macro, long lens, shooting mobile, moving subjects, etc. but when it works it works wonderfully.
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Hi again, Marc
Like Edwin says:
The Sinar F2 (4x5) (http://www.image2output.com/Product.aspx?id=2394&cat=45)or F3 (100mm) (http://www.image2output.com/Product.aspx?id=1719&cat=45) are the best full movement cameras for landscape/architecture because they are lighter than the P equivants at the expense of a full set of microprecision adjustments. the can use the same lens/bellows/film+digital back systems as the 'P' series
The Sinar M (http://www.image2output.com/prodlist.aspx?cat=44) has 2 distict operation modes
1) as an electronic shutter for the p2/p3 systems in a studio
2) as a tripod mounted camera - you can also use a range of hasselblad/nikon lenses with it in this mode.
Edwin
Once you are into the Sinar system, there are options, and you can use an F3 and a P3 with the same lensboards.
The Sinar P3/F3 is an open system, but I do not know of any other camera that uses the standard P3 lensboard. (The Linhof Techno is similar but different.)
How much extension will you need (for long lenses or Macro)?
How wide a lens will you want to use?
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I am upgrading from a P30 to a P45+ and wondering if moving from a Mamiya AFDII to a view/technical camera and newer digital lenses is worth it for the improvement in image quality?
In landscape and nature photography what improvements would I realize?
Marc, I'll take a more polemical position and say "no" and "none".
I use a Linhof M679cs with Rodenstock digital lenses and a P45+. It's a combination that makes sense for the architectural work I chiefly do, but I don't see any sustained or material quality differences versus using the same back on Hasselblad V series cameras. If it wasn't for the architectural requirement for substantial camera movements and wide angle lenses with low distortion, then I'd drop large format digital like a shot.
View cameras were designed to manage 4x5 or larger film, which would then be usually enlarged by an undemanding x2 to x4. That's a process that stressed neither the camera nor the photographer. Contrast that experience with the reality of a digital back, you'll be struggling to precisely fix focus with an oversized loupe (that the groundglass was never designed for), and making micron level adjustments (which your thumbs were never designed for), in order to deliver satisfying results with enlargements that might run to x10, x20, or even more. To stand any chance of success requires very expensive micro-gearing, a heavy camera chassis, and an awful lot of concentration.
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Hi,
Being new to large format and large format digital stitching I am current learning my custom made digital adapter (designed per my concept) .
I can add following;
1. Sharp traditional large format lenses works. My Schneider 72 XL & 58 XL and Rodenstock 150 Sironar-N seem more sharp than my Mamiya lenses, save for the Mamiya 28mm which I am not sure if it is sharper yet or not. If you need digital lenses depends on your subject, size of stitching and resolution of digital back. I use Aptus 65.
2. While digital large format lenses are sharper, you cannot use them for 4x5 film due to their small image circles. I simply like to use same lens for both digital and film.
3. For landscape my interest is in using digital for panoramic (flat) stitching. Thus digital large format lenses have small image circles, due to that I seek to make up to 3:1 (~617) format stithces.
4. Fabrication tolerances on a digital stitching adapter are important, but depend on the width of lens you use. Wider lens means more shallow depth of focus and need for tighter tolerances. On my adapter fabrication tolerances on groundglas versus sensor plane are 0.05~0.07mm and seem ok for up to 58mm width of lens, but borderline.
5. Critical focusing is essential. I use Maxwell screen, and using my 58mm focusing seem a tad critical because things are already small on groundglass.
6. Why custom made stitching adapter? All others sold (save cheap ones on Ebay) are way too expensive and too tiny grounglasses. Mine was intended for up to 118mm width, however due reflections along internal side of it I seem limited to slight over 100mm. I also have a groundglass on which I can see the whole resulting image that I will stitch, thus to assist me in accurate composition of images. That is very important to me.
7. Using also 4x5 film in Quickloads, I am struck how simple it is with film instead, although... having digital for stitching is an interesting additional media...
8. I use my adapter on a Shen-Hao non folder -yes! That works, the critical is again the tolerances on the stitching adapter itself, while if a technical camera without lens movements then one would only need to focus.... Using my adapter in more than one row of stitching on the Shen Hao, then it seems I need to refocus for each row due inaccuracy of the rear standard sliding. Else it simply seem to work!
9. Worst experience so far, first time I used with digital adapter, a guy with DSLR around his neck politely walked up and asked if what I was using was a camera....
Regards
Anders
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Hi again, Marc
Like Edwin says:
Once you are into the Sinar system, there are options, and you can use an F3 and a P3 with the same lensboards.
The Sinar P3/F3 is an open system, but I do not know of any other camera that uses the standard P3 lensboard. (The Linhof Techno is similar but different.)
How much extension will you need (for long lenses or Macro)?
How wide a lens will you want to use?
I'll keep my AFDII kit for the 120 macro and longer lenses so I see myself using between 40mm and 100mm lenses
mostly for stitched panoramas
Marc
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Hi,
Being new to large format and large format digital stitching I am current learning my custom made digital adapter (designed per my concept) .
Regards
Anders
Anders,
Sounds cool, how about a picture.
Ed
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Marc, I'll take a more polemical position and say "no" and "none".
I find that kinda refreshing to read. Honestly!
However you don't shoot everything wide open (especially not in landscape) and with wide angles you rarely shoot anything else than at infinity (and with helical focus mount that's quite easy). So focussing is not always an issue and in this case you take advantage of the superior lenses.
But when focussing is an issue... it is certainly a serious one.
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Marc, I'll take a more polemical position and say "no" and "none".
I use a Linhof M679cs with Rodenstock digital lenses and a P45+. It's a combination that makes sense for the architectural work I chiefly do, but I don't see any sustained or material quality differences versus using the same back on Hasselblad V series cameras. If it wasn't for the architectural requirement for substantial camera movements and wide angle lenses with low distortion, then I'd drop large format digital like a shot.
View cameras were designed to manage 4x5 or larger film, which would then be usually enlarged by an undemanding x2 to x4. That's a process that stressed neither the camera nor the photographer. Contrast that experience with the reality of a digital back, you'll be struggling to precisely fix focus with an oversized loupe (that the groundglass was never designed for), and making micron level adjustments (which your thumbs were never designed for), in order to deliver satisfying results with enlargements that might run to x10, x20, or even more. To stand any chance of success requires very expensive micro-gearing, a heavy camera chassis, and an awful lot of concentration.
Well that is concerning would any one be willing to shoot a subject with both cameras same back, SLR and view at equivalent focal lengths for a comparison?
Marc
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Anders,
Sounds cool, how about a picture.
Ed
Hi Ed,
Yes it is cool, but aint for de faint hearted , takes lots of experimenting to learn how it works and its limits - at which I still am at - , including strange discoloration across half frame which was due internal reflections of the adapter when I was tad near an edge of the adapters full inner frame which caused low light reflections... cannot explain simpler by words on that than so. Next test will be shooting and stitching to within what I believe I figured out are the max limits of this adapter, and to the different combinations of stitched up formats. Photography is my hobby, thus I go about this tad slow....
Attaching a single frame from my Aptus 65 (including 100% crop) using the Schneider 72 XL just to show that I am really doing something , that was just a part of a testing. Add some sharpening to it and see how looks! Of course, pixel peeping with digital lenses you shall find those are sharper, but... what we all need might be a tad different, right? Digital lenses, technical cameras and all extras cost $$$$$$. That was not the way to go for me. Thus I ventured into simplicity (???) with a custom made adapter - per my concept design.
As for photo of my adapter, sorry none. At current it is prototype #1, which may be developed further, and maybe into a production model. We shall see...
My personal opinion though, technical cameras are oversold for way too much $$$. It is not necessarily needed to use such, it all depends. As they say, digital requires more exact, but that does not necessarily mean that you need buy a $$$ technical camera and $$$ lenses, it all depends on our actual needs as I stated in above post. Once you go line of technical camera though, it seems you actually step into medium format, not large format since the image circles are medium format sized, apart perhaps maybe the Rodenstock APO digital lenses. Thus, because medium format it requires tighter tolerances on also cameras.... while if stay on a 4x5 for panoramic stitching might be different...
Regards
Anders
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Well that is concerning would any one be willing to shoot a subject with both cameras same back, SLR and view at equivalent focal lengths for a comparison?
Marc
Marc, I can go one better. I'm in the process of trading in my Hasselblad V system/P45+ for a Mamiya AFD system/P65+, so if you can wait a couple of weeks I'll be able to email you comparison shots between say a 45mm Rodenstock Digital on a Linhof, and a 45mm D Mamiya/Phase One on a Mamiya/Phase One 645 AFD, both with the same full-frame digital back.
So it'll be a comparison that directly relates to your current camera system. I'm pretty confident you won't find any meaningful image quality differences, but you be the judge. Why don't you contact me offline.
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I'm pretty confident you won't find any meaningful image quality differences
yes, in this case maybe not.
From the specs the...
- Rodenstock Digital (non HR) are desigend for sensors up to 9microns pixel
- Schneider Digitar for sensors up to 6microns
- Rodenstock Digital HR for sensors up to 5microns
The P45+ has 6.8 microns so from the specs you have to use Digitars or even HRs.
My Digitar 47XL is a completely different thing to the Distagon 2.8/45 (Contax 645) on my P45. And the Distagon is actually not bad... not at all!
It's just that the Digitars is superior (from f8 and smaller)
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Hi Marc just noticed the thread and your questions.
I've been shooting my landscape work 100% now with the Cambo WRS1000 and P45+ for several months now and enjoy it. I got the WRS last October and early this year decided to sell my Phase AFD and all the associate Mamiya lenses as I just wasn't using it.
I've shot the North & South Rim Grand Canyon last Fall and Winter, the California Redwoods January this year, Carmel and Big Sur, Monument Valley, Sedona, Canyon de Chelly and I just returned from the South Rim (again). I have a collection of very good to great lenses all Schneider, 24mm, 35mm, 72mm, and 120mm.
Here's what I've found and my general impressions based on being strictly a landscape photographer:
While I truly loved the P30+ I knew it would work with a technical camera so I made the move to the P45+ which is so good I no longer miss the P30+.
I shoot with the Cambo WRS-1000 a truly great little system; Cambo just released this body late last year. The WRS is designed to be used with solely with a digital back with all the movements on the rear so the lens is static. I have stitched multiple images having close to 99.99% of useable finished image to work with.
Your question regarding the worthiness of moving from an AFDII to a technical camera and associated lenses is good however the answers you'll receive will be based (or should be) on personal experiences. In my opinion the answer is yes. This is based on moving from an AFD III and the Mamiya 28mm, 75-150 and 300mm lenses.
I have found the image quality to be equal to or superior to the lens lineup I had used.
The WRS does not allow for a sliding back however you can use a groundglass; it also has an optional viewfinder. I have the groundglass however I don't use it for focus instead I use it mainly to assist me when I use a filter.
Focusing with the WRS: I have found that this really isn't as difficult as I thought it was going to be. I have never lost an image due to improper focus. Again remember I do nothing but landscape work. Nevertheless I've shot from distances of several meters out to infinity.
The most difficult thing I've encountered using a TC has been 2 things. Remember to take the lens cap off - I've gotten much better! And remember to cock the shutter - that is my number one error now encountering it maybe 1 in every 100 shots.
I enjoy the Zen like feel of shooting landscape with a TC. Setting up the camera on the tripod is a joy, taking my time to fully see the landscape and deciding on the proper focal length, f/stop and shutter speed. All this slows you down, slows the heart rate down and allows you to see possibilities that you may have missed otherwise. The simple act of closing the shutter release can be a joy. Okay enough of this..
You ask are front movement important? Again different answers from different people. I choose the WRS simply because all the movement are on the back. The back moves around the lens circle - not the lens around the back. The Cambo WDS offers a little of both with shifts on the back and rise and fall on the front (lens). I did a comparison of the two bodies June this year and posted my thoughts here (http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8034) and here (http://ironcreekphotography.blogspot.com/2009/06/comparing-cambo-wds-and-rs-1000.html).
Cambo has recently announced the ability to use tilt/shift on their lens boards as well. Go on Cambo's website (http://www.cambo.com/index.htm) for information (click on June 26,2009 news pdf).
I haven't really touched on your last question of which lens do I prefer as that is based on location and conditions. I used all four of my lenses this past week at the South Rim. I love the colors I get with the 24mm/center filter however I equally like the large image circle of the other lens and the ability to shift to 20mm and the rise/fall they give me. My first lens was the 35 followed shortly my the 72. I didn't get the 24 and 120 till after I decided to sell my AFD/lens kit.
Okay this answer is now bordering on a novel and getting much too long. Good luck with your decision.
Cheers
Don
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The simple act of closing the shutter release can be a joy.
Yep, I can relate to that! Also, slowing the process down can sometimes be almost relaxing.
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yes, in this case maybe not.
From the specs the...
- Rodenstock Digital (non HR) are desigend for sensors up to 9microns pixel
- Schneider Digitar for sensors up to 6microns
- Rodenstock Digital HR for sensors up to 5microns
The P45+ has 6.8 microns so from the specs you have to use Digitars or even HRs.
My Digitar 47XL is a completely different thing to the Distagon 2.8/45 (Contax 645) on my P45. And the Distagon is actually not bad... not at all!
It's just that the Digitars is superior (from f8 and smaller)
Thomas, take your point but you also have to consider the image circle, doubly so as the original poster was talking about using the sliding carriage for stitching.
There's a trade-off between movement capability and resolution, and as sensors like the P65+ have completed the move to genuinely full frame 645, the image circle constraint has just become even tighter still. As well as Rodenstock Digital lenses I also have had to keep some more traditional large format lenses for when I need extreme movements or sliding carriage stitching.
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Marc, I can go one better. I'm in the process of trading in my Hasselblad V system/P45+ for a Mamiya AFD system/P65+, so if you can wait a couple of weeks I'll be able to email you comparison shots between say a 45mm Rodenstock Digital on a Linhof, and a 45mm D Mamiya/Phase One on a Mamiya/Phase One 645 AFD, both with the same full-frame digital back.
So it'll be a comparison that directly relates to your current camera system. I'm pretty confident you won't find any meaningful image quality differences, but you be the judge. Why don't you contact me offline.
Gary
Thanks a million! yes I can wait I'm not going to do anything until September, just trying to educate myself at this point
Marc
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There's a trade-off between movement capability and resolution, and as sensors like the P65+ have completed the move to genuinely full frame 645, the image circle constraint has just become even tighter still. As well as Rodenstock Digital lenses I also have had to keep some more traditional large format lenses for when I need extreme movements or sliding carriage stitching.
that's right, of course.
With the Digitar 47XL on the P45 I feel I can go quite good up to +/- 17mm lateral in horizontal composition.
Here's a (boring) test shot I prepared recently; I've drawn in the amount of shift at the top on the image.
Scene [red part is the P45 film plane at center position; plus 20mm shift]:
[attachment=15842:scene.jpg]
Here's a crop from the center area showing far distance:
http://tinyurl.com/lz2mgu (http://tinyurl.com/lz2mgu)
And here's the crop with 20mm shift lateral (a flat motif would have been better but I think it's well enough as an example):
http://tinyurl.com/lgzwk2 (http://tinyurl.com/lgzwk2)
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Thanks for all the inputs and answers to my questions. I now have a lot of information to digest. I'll let you know what the outcome is
Thanks again
Marc